Any gun-nerds around who can help me out?

[dogface]

My gun-enthusiasm pretty much stops and starts at video-games, so there's a lot that I've picked up on that could just be pure fantasy, hollywood myths, or brand-name-avoiding. But anyways, I'm trying to cobble together a weapons pack that works by expanding the level lists so that, for instance, if you run across a fiend with a 9mm pistol given to him via level-list, it could be anything from whole variety of mod-added 9mm pistols.

 

The difficulty here is figuring out what type of guns should possibly replace each vanilla gun, and I've made a small reference-list for myself, but I have no idea if any of these calibers are totally over or underpowered compared to the other calibers they'll be spawning alongside. I thought I'd post what I'm planning, so if anybody who knows a lot about guns spots something that's really out of place they can let me know, or if they know of a caliber that's really popular (either in the RW or in mod-added weapons) they can tell me where it should go.

 

Anyways, the plan is, anywhere the player might come across the level-list added vanilla weapon, they might instead find...

 

So far I'm just concerned with getting the pistols right, then I'll move on to the shotguns.

 

- .22 pistol

- Any pistol or revolver in...

.22 (any variety)

.32 (any variety)

.38SPC

 

- 9mm pistol

- Any pistol or revolver in..

9x19 parabellum

9x18 makarov

 

- .357 revolver

- Any pistol or revolver in...

.357 magnum

7.62x25 tokarev

.380ACP

 

- 10mm pistol

- Any pistol or revolver in...

10mm Auto

.40S&W

5.45x18 (soviet PSM)

 

- .44 revolver

- Any pistol or revolver in...

.44SPC

.44 Magnum

.45 Long Colt

.454 Casull

 

- .45 Automatic

- Any pistol or revolver in...

.45APC

.45 WinMag

 

- Hunting Revolver

- Any pistol or revolver in...

.45/70 govt

12.3x50 (russian 32g revolver)

Any Nitro caliber (for howdah pistols, etc.)

 

12.7mm pistol

Fallout's 12.7mm

.50AE

9x21 (russian SP-1)

"PDW" calibers (like 5.7mm, 7.92VBR, etc.)

 

Does this look reasonable for the pistol lists? None of the above will include machinepistols, they'll be found where SMGs are.

[gregathit]

Looks fairly thorough to me at a quick glance.

I see the .50AE for my Desert Eagle anyway so I am happy

[BlueSkyMine]

5.45x18 (soviet PSM)

 

This really ought to be with the .22 group as its muzzle energy is far lower than the likes of 10mm auto. The cartridge was meant for concealable pistols anyway so it fits better.

 

Edit: On another note, 7.62x25mm Tokarev feels more in line with 10mm or .45 Automatic. It does leave the .357 selection a bit sparse but it lines up with later with the 10mm SMG since there's a few SMGs that use it as well.

 

World Guns has a good breakdown on ammunition to get some more calibers to use.

 

http://world.guns.ru/ammunition/ammunition-e.html

 

To go with that, there's a mod for Jagged Alliance 2 which has quite a hefty selection which you can draw inspiration from. The FAQ has all the guns sorted by caliber as well.

 

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/296282/Re_AIMNAS_FAQ.html#Post296282

[dogface]

Thanks a lot, the PSM and tokarev rounds are the ones I was most unsure of. I wasn't sure if PSM were plinky little assssin-rounds or more in line with the small-but-highpowered PDW types, and I had no idea of Tokarev was more or less powerful than Makerov. I won't be classing SMGs by caliber like the pistols, since the 10mm appears very early and the .22 appears fairly late, and there's bound to be way too many 9mm's compared to everything else. I'm not quite sure yet, but I think I'll probably be dividing them based mainly on how modern they are.

 

.44SPC, .45 Long Colt and.45 WinMag are also ones I'm not sure about. Do you think I should promote or drop any of them a level? I'm also considering leaving the Tommy Guns and M1911 alone and putting all other .45 pistols and SMGs with another level-list, since the guns in Honest Hearts were supposedly all ganked from the same armoury.

 

And thanks for the links ; most of these calibers I've only ever heard of because of JA2 AIMNAS.

[BlueSkyMine]

Ah, I see what you mean. Yeah, pistols cartridges can get quite exotic than what SMGs use.

 

As for the calibers you mentioned, been reading on .45 WinMag and it should be bumped up to .44 since, well, it's a magnum round and I it seems it was meant to be a competing round against the .44 S&W Magnum.

 

For .44spc and .45LC, you can either do what NV does already for .44 special (use it as the surplus round equivalent for .44 and .454Casull respectively) or maybe drop them towards .357. They're more in-line in terms of power at that end of the spectrum.

[Henfruit23]

I'd say make some 40mm Buckshot shells for the grenade launchers. It'll basically transform the thing into a monstrous shotgun.

[prideslayer]

I'm a "gun guy".. my initial thoughts..

 

The "low end" .22 tier encompasses too many calibers. .22LR is vastly underpowered compared to almost anything else. It looks comperable if you only look at muzzle energy, but when you take other important factors into account (penetration, permanent wound cavity, temporary cavity) it becomes obvious why it's only used for very small game or target practice.

 

Then we have the difference between magnum rounds and acp rounds. Anything labeled ACP (or anything fired from a semi-automatic pistol) is generally much weaker than a magnum round from a revolver. A .45ACP is much more similar to a 9mm parabellum than it is to a .44 magnum, for example.

 

Basically if you don't really "know guns" you can just look up pictures of the cartridges. If it's short and stubby, it belongs in the ACP / "weak" category for that caliber. If it's long and slender, it belongs in the magnum / "strong" category for that caliber.

 

A .357 magnum has four to five times the muzzle energy of a .380acp, for example; the magnum is both heavier and faster, while only being slightly smaller in diameter.

 

I'd group something like..

 

weak pistol:

- .22

- .25acp (if any)

- .32acp

 

middle pistol:

- .380acp

- .40s&w

- 9x18

- 9x19

- 7.62x25

- 5.45x18 (psm)

 

strong semi-auto:

- .45acp

- .50AE

- 10mm

 

strong revolver:

- .357 magnum

- .38spc

- .44 magnum

- .44spc

- .454 casull

- .45/70

- (etc)

[GSBmodders]

I'm a "gun guy".. my initial thoughts..

 

The "low end" .22 tier encompasses too many calibers. .22LR is vastly underpowered compared to almost anything else. It looks comperable if you only look at muzzle energy' date=' but when you take other important factors into account (penetration, permanent wound cavity, temporary cavity) it becomes obvious why it's only used for very small game or target practice.

[/quote']

 

Not entirely true, The 22 rounds tend to be softer which leads a lot of people thinking that meh no big deal but here is where the 22 becomes deadly. Since the rounds are softer the bullet breaks up inside the body and very often fails to exit the body. Many people think that this is a good thing when in reality it's not. You stand a far greater chance of surviving a gun shot wound if the bullet passes through your body vrs breaking up inside and causing yet even more damage. They wont penetrate body armor but imagine a shot to the temple where the skull is thin enough for the 22 round to easily penetrate, now imagine that round breaking up and bouncing around inside your head, now be thankful that Benny did not carry a 22 otherwise it would have been one very short game

 

but yeah the 38 was way out of place in that list

[dogface]

Thanks for clarifying on the ACP/Magnum divide. The grouping will still be based on mod-added guns showing up instead of their closest vanilla FNV equivalents, and I'm not particularly worried if revolvers and automatics cross over so long as the calibers more or less match up with one another.

 

As far as armour-piercing pistol rounds go, aren't some of those smaller calibers practically dedicated to defeating armour and would perform better than some of their bigger rivals? Or is it basically a question of biggest-round defeats armour better?

[gregathit]

Generally speaking bigger does penetrate armor better (and does more damage) but there are exceptions to every rule.

[prideslayer]

None of the handgun calibers is fallout has a snowballs chance in hell of defeating body armor. That is a realm best left to rifles, which any caliber can do with AP ammo, and then generally yes -- the bigger the round the better.

 

That is unless I've missed some handgun in the game that's chambered in a rifle caliber that has AP ammo.

[gregathit]

Wouldn't a 44magnum or a .50 AP round from a DE punch through body armor? I guess we need to define the "type" of body armor to answer this. If we are talking about power armor then probably not. If just a vest then yea, unless it has a ceramic or steel plate........ugh....to many variables!

[Guest Loogie]

12.7mm is .50 cal, there are 12.7mm pistols and SMGs in the game. Fallout 1 and 2 also had 14mm guns.

 

In Fallout canon, 10mm has a chance to get through power armor - it's actually a sticking point for veteran NCR troopers, because the NCR used to issue 10mm handguns before there were supply problems, then replaced them with cheaper 9mm guns which could not defeat power armor. This is something of a sore point when you're engaged in a war with the Brotherhood of Steel.

 

Both 10mm and 12.7mm comes in AP variants in all games but Fallout 3.

[prideslayer]

Wouldn't a 44magnum or a .50 AP round from a DE punch through body armor? I guess we need to define the "type" of body armor to answer this. If we are talking about power armor then probably not. If just a vest then yea' date=' unless it has a ceramic or steel plate........ugh....to many variables!

[/quote']

 

In the game? Sure.. everything has a chance. This is the problem with games that don't implement something like an 'armor rating', or implements it unrealistically. You can plink a tank to death with a BB gun, given enough time and ammo -- something that is simply not possible in reality.

 

In real life? Few pistol rounds (5.7mm AP, .454 casul, .500 winmag) have a real chance against IIIA or above armor, which is a soft armor (kevlar/polymer) rated to stop up to .44mag JHP. III is rated to stop at least 6 rounds of 308/7.62mm, IV is rated to stop at least one round of anything up to .30cal AP from a rifle. IV is a 'hard' armor, everything else is a 'soft' armor. IIIA and below are intended to stop pistols, III is intended to stop rifles, IV is intended to stop AP rifles.

 

IIIA is standard body armor for police ("bullet proof vests") while SWAT guys will usually wear III or sometimes IV.

 

It's about more than 'size'. A 5.56mm/.223 is the 'same size' as a .22, and .50AE, .50Winmag, and .50BMG are all the 'same size', despite vastly different energy levels.

 

There is a vast difference, as a general rule, between automatic pistol rounds, magnum revolver rounds, and rifle rounds, at the same caliber.

 

This is all somewhat academic though. I'd put the NCR and NCRCF armors at IIIA, power armor as.. well.. power armor, and everything else at something much lower. Raider "armor", legion armor, etc., are all just for looks if their visual construction is a representation of reality. You aren't going to stop any round, pistol or rifle, with a few straps of leather, hubcaps, goalie masks, etc.

[Guest Loogie]

The different levels of combat armor are well above any current body armor, and power armor is above that.

[prideslayer]

Since a picture is worth a thousand words (or rounds), this may help...

 

 

You can see the massive difference between a .50BMG (M2 .50, aka 'ma deuce') far right, and a .50AE (desert eagle) 4th from left. The .40, .45ACP, and .50AE are all larger caliber than all the rifle rounds on the right except the .50BMG, but it doesn't take much imagination to see that even the smallest of those rifle rounds is going to be a lot more dangerous than the largest pistol round.

 

The magnum revolver rounds fit pretty neatly between the .223/5.56mm and the .308win.

[gregathit]

Wouldn't a 44magnum or a .50 AP round from a DE punch through body armor? I guess we need to define the "type" of body armor to answer this. If we are talking about power armor then probably not. If just a vest then yea' date=' unless it has a ceramic or steel plate........ugh....to many variables!

[/quote']

 

In the game? Sure.. everything has a chance. This is the problem with games that don't implement something like an 'armor rating', or implements it unrealistically. You can plink a tank to death with a BB gun, given enough time and ammo -- something that is simply not possible in reality.

 

In real life? Few pistol rounds (5.7mm AP, .454 casul, .500 winmag) have a real chance against IIIA or above armor, which is a soft armor (kevlar/polymer) rated to stop up to .44mag JHP. III is rated to stop at least 6 rounds of 308/7.62mm, IV is rated to stop at least one round of anything up to .30cal AP from a rifle. IV is a 'hard' armor, everything else is a 'soft' armor. IIIA and below are intended to stop pistols, III is intended to stop rifles, IV is intended to stop AP rifles.

 

IIIA is standard body armor for police ("bullet proof vests") while SWAT guys will usually wear III or sometimes IV.

 

It's about more than 'size'. A 5.56mm/.223 is the 'same size' as a .22, and .50AE, .50Winmag, and .50BMG are all the 'same size', despite vastly different energy levels.

 

There is a vast difference, as a general rule, between automatic pistol rounds, magnum revolver rounds, and rifle rounds, at the same caliber.

 

This is all somewhat academic though. I'd put the NCR and NCRCF armors at IIIA, power armor as.. well.. power armor, and everything else at something much lower. Raider "armor", legion armor, etc., are all just for looks if their visual construction is a representation of reality. You aren't going to stop any round, pistol or rifle, with a few straps of leather, hubcaps, goalie masks, etc.

 

You perfectly stated what I was driving at. Any attempt to define ammo needs to also address armors. You really can't have one without the other or things fall apart.

[Halstrom]

Wouldn't a 44magnum or a .50 AP round from a DE punch through body armor? I guess we need to define the "type" of body armor to answer this. If we are talking about power armor then probably not. If just a vest then yea' date=' unless it has a ceramic or steel plate........ugh....to many variables! [/quote']

Slightly related to this, I play Cyberpunk2020 Tabletop RPG with friends every 2 weeks. Example damage on the dice is 2d6 for 9mm, 5d6 for a 5.56Nato, 7d6 for 7.62Nato and last Saturday night 12d10 for a 90mm recoiless rifle (the UberTank PC had to burn 2 permanent points of luck to survive that one in a critical condition, I shot him a second time to finish him off, but then ran out of ammo).

 

The first interesting rule we've added is any hit does 1 point of armor damage so even a .22 1d6 round or 1d6 baseballbat will make your 25 point helmet a 24 point helmet regardless of whether it gets through. This makes a .22 mini-gatling a scary weapon with a fire rate of 50rounds per action (theres a good chance half of full-autofired rounds will probably miss).

 

The other rule we've added is if a 6 is rolled on the dice it is rerolled and added indefinatly but only one 6 of every group of dice rolled, so yes we have had a player in full 25 point combat armor killed on the first stoke of a punk with a 1d6 flick knife rolling 38 points of damage to a 8 hitpoint head. The reasoning is it went through an opening in the neck joint or something similar.

 

It also gets interesting because we use the same theory on initiative rolls, so the same unskilled punk may add his base skill of 12 to a lucky dice roll of 27 and somehow beat that combat veterans 26 base skill plus a dice roll of 2.

 

We also decided that every 10 points ahead in initiative is an extra action so at the start of combat the quick & lucky people may draw weapons & fire before the others even realise the fight has started. we have limited this though thaat the number of attacks is still limited as to what the weapon is capable of in 3 seconds, the other actions are then movement based or dialogue within reason

[prideslayer]

You perfectly stated what I was driving at. Any attempt to define ammo needs to also address armors. You really can't have one without the other or things fall apart.

 

Yeah I agree, the problem is that doing it "right" gets really complicated -- probably too complicated for a game. I think the next best thing is to simply shrug off any hits to hard armor from non-AP rounds. In FO this is all pistol rounds vs. power armor or combat armor. Soft armor should have a damage reduction factor for handgun ammo that varies by caliber.

 

Also it's worth noting that the soft armors do nothing against rifle rounds, AP or not. They don't even offer "some protection." 5.56mm and up will punch through kevlar just as easily as cotton.

[gregathit]

Very good points prideslayer.

 

@Halstrom - Yea, when you can have a complicated rules system it is nice to allow for the "lucky" hit scenario.