Caesar's Legion - How Do You See Them?

[Menesh]

My character just reached level 10 and most legionaires I met so far (I've got no Legion mod running) were armed with machetes, throwing spears, revolvers and the odd cowboy repeater.

 

My Legion Assassins oddly enough are butt naked and sometimes even unarmed...

[ChancellorKremlin]

Whoah, this thread has really taken off since I last left.

 

But... we are talking of fallout' date=' here, where we have fission batteries, nuclear rockets, robots, stealth boys, energy weapons, and... and a technique for curing leather which can apparently absorb the force of a .22

 

Is it really all that hard to believe that their football gear would have been equal to their leather, for protective purposes?

[/quote']

 

True, and this is only a little gripe I have with them. I'm generally okay with ignoring most things sciency related in films and games (otherwise it would be too easy to just ignore most films and games) but I get a bit pissy with other forms of realism, especially tactics.

 

In this regard I just think the Legion could have been better fought out, that's all

 

There's a concept that seems to be implied in the game very subtly' date=' that I think we're all missing.

 

The legionaries are all fanatically loyal to Caesar. When you help Lt. Boyd at McCarran interrogate the captured Centurion, she mentions that legion soldiers will suicide rather than be captured.

 

"Glory to Caesar!" is a frequent battlecry in the eastern portions of the Mojave.

 

Fanatical, uber loyal soldiers who would rather die than fail. Sound familiar?

 

Berserkers. Adrenaline-drunk berserker soldiers who go rage blind and rush anything in their path, ignoring injury until their legs are literally cut from under them. This would explain their overriding drive in the face of catastrophic losses with minimal armor and melee weapons.

 

Just a thought.

[/quote']

 

True, but again, I'm not saying they are questioning their orders, they can still be uber loyal and fanatical and wear decent armour, they'd have more chance of surviving that way.

 

And as for Berserkers, did you know that in Antiquity, the Gallic, Galatian and Germanic Berserkers went into battle extremely intoxicated with a mixture of alcohol and potions brewed by their tribal elders? This made them impervious to pain, and there are reports of berserkers being pierced midriff with a throwing spear, taking it out, throwing it back and charging like nothing ever happened.

 

Caesar's Legion doesn't even allow drugs!

 

I am guessing that the football armor was a stab at making the legion a little bit silly looking so as to vilify them. I do agree with the OP that the legion grunts need something a bit less "silly" and more practical such as bits of plate steel or such. The problem is making this type of thing "look" like any sort of uniform.

 

Perhaps that is also the problem that Bethesda had' date=' trying to come up with some sort of "uniformed look" for the legion.

 

Drunk or fanatically loyal it would be silly to throw away troopers - many of whom would only be armed with blades against NCR troops with guns without some means of minimal protection. While the legion may have outnumbered the NCR I don't think the numbers alone would have been great enough to offset the guns. Shields or some sort of bullet resistant armor would have been a must.

[/quote']

 

I agree. There is only one mod that I know of that gives them a good uniformed look, see below.

 

With all this talk of melee berzerkers' date=' has anyone since a legionary without a ranged weapon that doesn't have a powerfist ingame?

[/quote']

 

The only ones I have ever seen wearing power fists are the Praetorians - everyone else in my game wears exclusively machettes,(about half) cowboy repeaters and hunting rifles and the rest pistols.

 

 

I have seen some with throwing spears and machete blades.....

 

In fact' date=' these constitute the majority of those I come across throughout the game, except towards the very end.

 

I don't doubt it, but the vast majority do have firearms.

 

Are you using a mod or something? I would not say more than half use them in my game.

 

Could do worse with an adapted armour based on the classic Lorica Segmentata.

 

They could have just used metal armour as a template' date=' and added some segmented plates, and giving it a colour scheme, would have made it look more 'uniformy' I guess.

 

What Legion mod is that? I love that look more than any other I've seen.

 

Indeed, what mod is that? I've never seen it before.

 

The guns look correct in that picture' date=' though the outfits are different.

 

What my understanding was from the game is legionaries use firearms but are trained not to rely on them, so they prefer to go in for the kill.

 

Now, in the second battle of Hoover Dam, you have legionaries with assault carbines, marksman rifles and trail carbines assaulting, and often not in massed charges. If you listen to the NCR radio, or fight for the NCR, there's a point where tricksy legionaries

crawl through non-functional water intakes to infiltrate the inside of the dam.

 

 

Now, there's other accounts of legionaries using mostly viscous hand-to-hand fighting, but those are of Caesar campaigning against the 86 tribes. With the Legion's philosophy of using no more force than necessary because it weakens your men, I don't see them going up against the Maltese Poodle tribe of Podunk, Colorado with with assault rifles and praetorian guard.

[/quote']

 

I was indeed very surprised to see them that well equipped in the last battle. It was like "Holy Shit so this is what the NCR have been talking about all this time" - in my game (Nevada Project) they use AK's and AR-15's which have tremendous damage, it actually makes that last battle quite hard. Playing a melee character is impossible.

 

As for the Maltese Poodle Tribe of Podunk (Great name by the way) that's why I created the three corps of Hastati, (Melee) Principes (Soldiers) and Triarii/Praetorians (Elite/Bodyguard) because the second and third corps would only go in if the first one failed. It makes for a reasonable use of force, in an organisation that relies mainly on hand to hand fighting. See OP which has been edited.

 

 

With Wild Wasteland' date=' you hear someone on the NCR Emergency channel going off about them "coming out of the walls!! Game over man, game over!!" Aliens reference, ftw.

 

[/quote']

 

I love that bit so much. "Game over man, game over!"

 

My character just reached level 10 and most legionaires I met so far (I've got no Legion mod running) were armed with machetes' date=' throwing spears, revolvers and the odd cowboy repeater.

 

My Legion Assassins oddly enough are butt naked and sometimes even unarmed...

[/quote']

 

I've got a similar strange but with Legionaries at the fort. Some spawn naked and without weapons, and I don't know what's causing it.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Since we've begun talking about Mods, and that is something I've been wanting to discuss for a while, here are a few I've come across.

 

I still very much want to know what mod was that on the previous page.

 

Here we have Caesar's New Regime

 

 

As you can see, it's a major overhaul of how the Legion looks and portrays itself in the Wasteland. Were it not for a few things, which I will discuss below, this would be my mod of choice.

 

 

My problem with Caesar's Nnew Regime is that it it's a little over the top. Like the raiders in FO3, there's too many chains, horns, bizarre facemasks, ridiculously oversized armour, among other things like Behemoths, female legionaries, etc. I want a mod that offers this sort of uniformed feel, with viable armour, but which isn't so 'in your face' - I mean please, some of the legionaries use super mutant weapons as weapons, ie the rotor blades and such.

 

 

This last one is almost good, but not quite there. I like the chestplate, but hate the helmet. In fact, most of my problems with this mod are helmet related. I think while the real CL looks very nicely uniformed, but very silly, this one suffers from being very nicely uniformed, but waay waay too silly. It's almost like something from 300.

 

My next mod, which I am leaning heavily in favour of, is Legion Redesigned:

 

I like it because it's simple, to the point, and looks realistic enough to fit with the Legion mantra and how I think they should be portrayed.

 

 

My only problem with it is that it looks a little too clean. I think there needs to be slightly more red, to give it a more 'uniformed' look, and I'm contacting the mod author to see if he will allow me to change the colour of the longcoat drape to a more legiony colour, and if he does, this will be my mod of choice.

 

 

I like it because I can actually believe this is an effective fighting force, and that someone that armoured would actually fare quite well trying to rush someone with a fireaxe or sword. It's believable that their chest armour is at least somewhat bullet proof.

 

 

My only other gripe with this mod is that in the helmet department it's otherwise lacking. It needs more of a Legion feel, not so much as Caesar's New Regime, but more than what is portrayed here.

 

On a different note, one set of actual game armour that I quite like is the Armour of the 87th Tribe, which you can get if you have the Lonesome Road DLC. I think it would make an excellent base/template for a mod that modifies the legion look.

 

 

It's simple, not in your face, looks mean and has that 'Legion quality' to it, and to me, is what the Legion should be more about.

 

I'm also updating the OP with these pictures.

[sen4mi]

Ok... I now think I understand... but let me describe how I understand so that you can tell me if I am wrong or close or whatever...

 

First, you object to "skimpy armor" in an effective fighting force that can take some damage (or you object to male skimpy armor, you have not stated that you object to female skimpy armor"). And I would further qualify this: you want to see a physical representation of how that damage gets absorbed.

 

Second, you object to the numbers portrayed for the legion. They have too many people "out in the field" and not enough "in camp", for you. They are, if anything being portrayed to be "too mobile" (in a strategic sense, not on a tactical level) for your tastes.

 

And, since I agree with you on my interpretation of your first point, and I sort of disagree with you on my interpretation of your second point, it might very well be that I have your second point wrong.

 

The issue with numbers is one of practicality and simplicity: lower end machines could not handle large numbers of NPCs with the fallout engine. The entire game needs, I think, additional npcs added (but in a way that does not destroy the feel of the game -- it's meant to portray a wasteland with wide open spaces). In part, the problem here is that the game also needs to be scaled up. It's not just NPCs which have been portrayed on a ridiculously small scale, but many other issues, including distances and time, also...

[KainsChylde]

I totally see where you're coming from and agree. The pictures help make your point.

 

And an extra gripe about New Regime: I don't know if this is a mod fault or if I installed it wrong, but Caesars old armor clips through his new armor making it look disturbingly organic.

[Menesh]

Speaking of believeability (is that a word? ^^), the idea that the Legion has access to virtually thousands (in a realistic scale) sets of identical football gear is, well, odd at least. I think the Legion very well might have manufactures behind their lines that forge armor from scrap metal and mined ores.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Ok... I now think I understand... but let me describe how I understand so that you can tell me if I am wrong or close or whatever...

 

First' date=' you object to "skimpy armor" in an effective fighting force that can take some damage (or you object to male skimpy armor, you have not stated that you object to female skimpy armor"). And I would further qualify this: you want to see a physical representation of how that damage gets absorbed.

 

Second, you object to the numbers portrayed for the legion. They have too many people "out in the field" and not enough "in camp", for you. They are, if anything being portrayed to be "too mobile" (in a strategic sense, not on a tactical level) for your tastes.

 

And, since I agree with you on my interpretation of your first point, and I sort of disagree with you on my interpretation of your second point, it might very well be that I have your second point wrong.

 

The issue with numbers is one of practicality and simplicity: lower end machines could not handle large numbers of NPCs with the fallout engine. The entire game needs, I think, additional npcs added (but in a way that does not destroy the feel of the game -- it's meant to portray a wasteland with wide open spaces). In part, the problem here is that the game also needs to be scaled up. It's not just NPCs which have been portrayed on a ridiculously small scale, but many other issues, including distances and time, also...

[/quote']

 

Aha, a breakthrough! Yes, I think we're onto something here. Absolutely spot on for the first point, the normal Legionary does absorb quite a lot of damage before going down, and I just don't see their 'skimpy' armour providing that, ergo in your own words, I "want to see a physical representation of how that damage gets absorbed" - ie, through more plausible, realistic armour.

 

Not so fussed about the female armour, because like I said, they should not even be fighting to start with if they are legion members, so I can just ignore that.

 

As for your second part, yes and no. I agree that, strategically, they seem to be represented as a 'mobile' force, but through what Caesar says, the fact he has a capital, vast swathes of land under his control, a population, roads, forts, cities, etc, it doesn't make sense that he is mobile. He is more like early Republican Rome (or Macedonia during the epoch of Alexander) than the Mongols, which ruled sparsely populated areas.

 

I understand game engine limitations, all I would be seeking to change in game is the way Caesar sometimes speaks about the Legion. He must realise his organisation is more sedentary than he gives it credit.

 

I'm not fussed about the too little people in camp too many on the field either. I was very sad that no DLC explored Legion controlled lands, as I think that would have made us really think about what Caesar is doing, rather than portraying an incomplete and sometimes at odds picture, which is what we have. Through dialogue (and maybe the odd location or two) I would try and address that.

 

I feel like the are making some progress here though

 

I totally see where you're coming from and agree. The pictures help make your point.

 

And an extra gripe about New Regime: I don't know if this is a mod fault or if I installed it wrong' date=' but Caesars old armor clips through his new armor making it look disturbingly organic.

[/quote']

 

Thanks. It's probably a failure in the installation, surely the meshes should have been copied over?

 

Speaking of believeability (is that a word? ^^)' date=' the idea that the Legion has access to virtually thousands (in a realistic scale) sets of identical football gear is, well, odd at least. I think the Legion very well might have manufactures behind their lines that forge armor from scrap metal and mined ores.

[/quote']

 

It should be I read somewhere that they now make it themselves, which as you've pointed out, begs the question - why keep making crap armour...

[Kashked]

Well, first off, I have never finished the game (second battle of hoover dam and all that) and I haven't played unmodded for years, so my impression of the legion is probably only totally valid for my particular build...

 

...but I'd still like to offer my two cents...

 

 

I find this troublesome because, how the hell has the Legion managed to achieve so much, control all east of the Colorado, without having 'proper' cities, bases of operations, supply depots, supply lines, indeed, an entire population behind it to support it, which would require large areas of settlement? We're not talking about the Great Khans/Mongols here, we're talking about a faction that has conquered large amounts of settled territory, large cities, and that somehow doesn't have a capital city/sedentary culture. Which is strange, and illogical.

 

The issue of wheter the legion should be understood as a mobile force I think requires us to imagine what kind of country the legion holds dominion over to answer. Based on what I know their population consists of conquered tribes that has been absorbed into the legion. These groups that inhabit the lands to the east could very well ALL be nomadic, or atleast a large part of them. They wouldn't require the kind of infrastructure that a urban civilization would need, such as supply dumps etc.

A large nomadic empire could very well control it's territory, assuming it has some sort of unifying recognition so the different groups that make it up quarell with eachother. You assume that it is a region with large cities and settled (I am reading this as "civilized") territories. My impression however is that Ceasar conquered mostly hunter-gatherer tribes. The legion could easily keep it's population as hunter-gatherers, eliminating the need for supporting them. Each group would take care of itself, while keeping Ceasar's laws ("dont raid merchants and make sure no one else does either", "don't fight other units from the legion" etc.)

FO:NV takes place on the outskirts of the new civilization, but still within it, east of the mojave we might very well have pretty much a stone-age situation... I think you overestimate the level of civilization of the general populace within legion lands. Ceasar himself is a civilized man, his population however, is not.

 

 

As for the question of tactics... My impression that for all their talk of killing in hand-to-hand combat, the legion is pretty much a "modern" fighting force within the Fallout Universe. If you compare their football armour with what the NCR troopers have it's not really that different (for the purpose of this discussion I am disregarding the in-game value, and base my opinion on how it looks). The NCR troops have something on their chest that I suppose is supposted to protect them, but I can't see that it would concievably be that effective. For the purposes of "realism", ignoring the in-game stats I think the only really effective armours (that I have seen in-game atleast) would be power armour and combat armour. A legionarie and a trooper would be pretty much on equal terms when it comes to soaking up bullets.

Another issue here is this... The NCR have the industrial capacity to build both guns and make ammo, while I assume the legion has scavanged and looted what they have, but just how much ammo does the average trooper carry? The legion is supposedly larger in numbers, atleast in fighting men, then the NCR. Assuming that the NCR's grunts don't carry around that much ammo (in my game they seldom have more than 10-15 bullets, but that is due to modding) getting overrun by knife-wielding savages suddenly becomes a real danger. Bullets are expensive in the Mojave. The guns are often old and worn, and prone to jamming (well, they SHOULD be, but in the actual game you have to fix this with mods...).

[sen4mi]

On mobility...

 

The big issue I see with strategic mobility is supplying your forces.

 

If you are stationary, you have to establish supply lines.

 

If you are mobile, you can prey on your victims, but you have to keep moving.

 

In both cases, the larger your forces the worse your supply problems become.

 

I need to think about the legion in this context.

 

One thought that occurred to me was that "rushing tactics" might be "weight loss plan" -- a way of keeping the forces from becoming too large to feed. If Caesar is good enough about finding new blood, this almost makes sense?

[gregathit]

What Legion mod is that? I love that look more than any other I've seen.

 

I still very much want to know what mod was that on the previous page.

 

It is not a legion mod at all. They are Army of Two rips.

They fit perfectly however don't they!

 

Link to grab the meshes/textures: http://bbs.3dmgame.com/thread-1633710-1-1.html (scroll about 3/4's of the way down to find the mod download links.

 

Lots of cool stuff there

 

I just took the rips and replaced all the legion troopers with the Army of two ones (there about 6 distinct ones if I remember right in the army of 2 files).

 

Then I replaced the NCR troopers with MW2 desert uniforms. Really sweetened up the whole look of things.

[KainsChylde]

On mobility...

 

The big issue I see with strategic mobility is supplying your forces.

 

If you are stationary' date=' you have to establish supply lines.

 

If you are mobile, you can prey on your victims, but you have to keep moving.

 

In both cases, the larger your forces the worse your supply problems become.

 

I need to think about the legion in this context.

 

One thought that occurred to me was that "rushing tactics" might be "weight loss plan" -- a way of keeping the forces from becoming too large to feed. If Caesar is good enough about finding new blood, this almost makes sense?

[/quote']

 

Makes sense to me. Survivors prove their worth and are promoted, everyone else is replaced by new recruits.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Well' date=' first off, I have never finished the game (second battle of hoover dam and all that) and I haven't played unmodded for years, so my impression of the legion is probably only totally valid for my particular build...[/quote']

 

It's starting to surprise me how quite a few people haven't finished the game. Any particular reason?

 

...but I'd still like to offer my two cents...

 

The issue of wheter the legion should be understood as a mobile force I think requires us to imagine what kind of country the legion holds dominion over to answer. Based on what I know their population consists of conquered tribes that has been absorbed into the legion. These groups that inhabit the lands to the east could very well ALL be nomadic' date=' or atleast a large part of them. They wouldn't require the kind of infrastructure that a urban civilization would need, such as supply dumps etc.

 

A large nomadic empire could very well control it's territory, assuming it has some sort of unifying recognition so the different groups that make it up quarell with eachother. You assume that it is a region with large cities and settled (I am reading this as "civilized") territories. My impression however is that Ceasar conquered mostly hunter-gatherer tribes. The legion could easily keep it's population as hunter-gatherers, eliminating the need for supporting them. Each group would take care of itself, while keeping Ceasar's laws ("dont raid merchants and make sure no one else does either", "don't fight other units from the legion" etc.)

 

FO:NV takes place on the outskirts of the new civilization, but still within it, east of the mojave we might very well have pretty much a stone-age situation... I think you overestimate the level of civilization of the general populace within legion lands. Ceasar himself is a civilized man, his population however, is not.[/quote']

 

You're right, to a point, but not entirely I think. I concede Caesar's Legion's successes have mainly been against tribes, but we do hear of cities conquered also, like Denver, Flagstaff (the capital) and even from slaves, such as Siri, who was trained to be a doctor, etc. It's clear CL controls territory that is civilized, populated and urbanised. The fact traders venture into their territory is an indication of this, there must exist some sort of civilian infra-structure to allow this sort of development. But I do admit a big focus of the Colorado and CL are Tribes, although I've never quite understood Fallout's fascination with them.

 

As for the question of tactics... My impression that for all their talk of killing in hand-to-hand combat' date=' the legion is pretty much a "modern" fighting force within the Fallout Universe. If you compare their football armour with what the NCR troopers have it's not really that different (for the purpose of this discussion I am disregarding the in-game value, and base my opinion on how it looks). The NCR troops have something on their chest that I suppose is supposted to protect them, but I can't see that it would concievably be that effective. For the purposes of "realism", ignoring the in-game stats I think the only really effective armours (that I have seen in-game atleast) would be power armour and combat armour. A legionarie and a trooper would be pretty much on equal terms when it comes to soaking up bullets.[/quote']

 

Yes, but they fight differently. My point is, NCR does not rush its enemies with knives, CL does. Given that realistically, the simple uniform the NCR wears and the silly football gear that CL wears offers the same level of protection, it follows NCR has a higher life expectancy because they work tactically, seek cover, retreat and so forth. For me to believe that CL is as sucessful as it's protrayed to be with the tactics it employs for the most part, I need to see them soaking up more damage, and that's not going to be through football armour.

 

I agree with you, only Combat Armour and Power Armour are truly bulletproof, but I'm willing to concede that metal armour may provide a limited form of protection.

 

Another issue here is this... The NCR have the industrial capacity to build both guns and make ammo' date=' while I assume the legion has scavanged and looted what they have, but just how much ammo does the average trooper carry? The legion is supposedly larger in numbers, atleast in fighting men, then the NCR. Assuming that the NCR's grunts don't carry around that much ammo (in my game they seldom have more than 10-15 bullets, but that is due to modding) getting overrun by knife-wielding savages suddenly becomes a real danger. Bullets are expensive in the Mojave. The guns are often old and worn, and prone to jamming (well, they SHOULD be, but in the actual game you have to fix this with mods...).

[/quote']

 

That is a good point. If anything though, it totally reinforces CL's inadequacy though; the NCR has industrial output, towns, states, entire populations to Marshall, etc - how has the Legion managed to make similar progress with what they have (or what they don't have?) - which is why I would advocate their societal system needs to be explored, and their 'soldiers' made more believable. You do make a good point about the ammo though, and this was something I had not thought of previously.

 

On mobility...

 

The big issue I see with strategic mobility is supplying your forces.

 

If you are stationary' date=' you have to establish supply lines.

 

If you are mobile, you can prey on your victims, but you have to keep moving.

 

In both cases, the larger your forces the worse your supply problems become.

 

I need to think about the legion in this context.

 

One thought that occurred to me was that "rushing tactics" might be "weight loss plan" -- a way of keeping the forces from becoming too large to feed. If Caesar is good enough about finding new blood, this almost makes sense?

[/quote']

 

It does indeed, but a careful balance must be struck. You don't want to bleed too much, lest you become weak. From what Caesar says, as does the NCR, slaves and traders, Caesar does indeed have supply lines, forward bases, and etc. Which means he is, in a lot of ways, like the NCR. And this is why I find it hard to buy his whole speech about New Vegas and his new capital. It's just that part of his dialogue I have a problem with though (lore wise of course) but like I said, I would love to see what the Legion actually looks like in their own lands.

 

It is not a legion mod at all. They are Army of Two rips.

They fit perfectly however don't they!

 

Link to grab the meshes/textures: http://bbs.3dmgame.com/thread-1633710-1-1.html (scroll about 3/4's of the way down to find the mod download links.

 

Lots of cool stuff there

 

I just took the rips and replaced all the legion troopers with the Army of two ones (there about 6 distinct ones if I remember right in the army of 2 files).

 

Then I replaced the NCR troopers with MW2 desert uniforms. Really sweetened up the whole look of things.

 

They do look pretty nice. It looks like a professional force' date=' which is close to what I'm wanting. I'm not too concerned with how the NCR looks (even though in FO2, a lot of their infantry seemed to be armed with Combat Armour, so they do seem to have downgraded)

 

Interesting forum in that link you provided, shame about the Japanese though, I can't understand any of it, sadly...

 

Makes sense to me. Survivors prove their worth and are promoted, everyone else is replaced by new recruits.

 

That would be keeping in the spirit of using ancient Rome as a template, which basically used it's Auxiliaries before sending in the Legionaries proper, both to conserve their strength, minimise proper 'Roman losses' and keep the tribes under their own control weak by comparison.

[Kashked]

It's starting to surprise me how quite a few people haven't finished the game. Any particular reason?

 

For me it's two main reasons... One is that I have the habit of starting new games a lot to try out and play with mods, and excessive modding has several times made my old saves unplayable. The game don't seem to like you switching around mods too much.

 

Another is that after I track down and deal with Benny it feels like I actually have finished the game. That is what I set out to do. I've never been to Jacobstown either, and while I do have all DLC installed, I haven't gotten around to more than Honest Hearts and Dead Money.

 

You're right, to a point, but not entirely I think. I concede Caesar's Legion's successes have mainly been against tribes, but we do hear of cities conquered also, like Denver, Flagstaff (the capital) and even from slaves, such as Siri, who was trained to be a doctor, etc. It's clear CL controls territory that is civilized, populated and urbanised. The fact traders venture into their territory is an indication of this, there must exist some sort of civilian infra-structure to allow this sort of development. But I do admit a big focus of the Colorado and CL are Tribes, although I've never quite understood Fallout's fascination with them.

 

I don't agree with your conclusions there...

 

First off, "conquering Denver" might very well be the legion killing off a tribe of scavanger-hunters living in the ruins of Denver. Flagstaff we don't know any details about, it might very well be some shrine and a couple of tents for all we know (assuming that's not something you learn more about during the endgame). The standards for being a "doctor" might very well not be that strict, Siri might concievably have been training to be something we would call a witchdoctor for all we know...

As for traders, if we think historically there has always been traders who venture out into savage lands to trade, usually tribes had something that was scarce in more civilized lands, furs, ivory, slaves, horses. The tribes that make up the legion might very well have large hoardes of pre-war technology that they don't know what to do with, that they are willing to sell to traders. Also there could be trading between the tribes of the legion and tribes not (yet) conquered by the legion.

The trading business in post-nuclear america is of a very limited nature, apperently Cass's little caravan of, what was it? 2-3 Brahmins was considered a pretty big outfit, even by Californian standards. We are not talking mass trade here.

 

Yes, but they fight differently. My point is, NCR does not rush its enemies with knives, CL does. Given that realistically, the simple uniform the NCR wears and the silly football gear that CL wears offers the same level of protection, it follows NCR has a higher life expectancy because they work tactically, seek cover, retreat and so forth. For me to believe that CL is as sucessful as it's protrayed to be with the tactics it employs for the most part, I need to see them soaking up more damage, and that's not going to be through football armour.

 

Well, obviously the NCR would have a higher life expectancy, but the legion makes up for that with numbers. An army of fanatics can do that, if the deathtoll starts to rise in the NCR infantry you will have mass desertions. The legion also pretty much "lives" on it's reputation too. The fear their crucifictions, mad rushes and slavetaking inspire among the NCR is part of it's overall effectivness. The NCR is at the extreme end of it's supply lines, with a demoralised and underequipped army, there is mention in-game that some of the kids the get shipped out to the mojave dont "even have body-armor", and that she (the former sarge-gone-weaponsdealer att the 188) often gives the troopers passing through a few extra rounds, heavily implying that there is a severe shortage of ammo.

 

Assuming the legion fights with any kind of brain at all (lore-wise, not commenting on their in-game performance) we would also have to assume that for smaller engagements they do what tribals always have done in a war situation, fight primarily through ambushes. For a squad of 3-4, with no means of calling in backup, that isn't that bad.

The Taliban (who I think are fairly "comparable" to the legion in mindset and technology level) have managed to deal pretty much damage to ISAF, even when ISAF have close air support, aerial recon, artillery and vehicles, none of the which the NCR have. Still, the taliban don't rush at troopers with knifes, but can we honestly say that that is the legion's main tactic? Most legionaries I have seen have been armed with firearms. That MAY be due to the mods I use, as I said, I haven't played unmodded for years, and I am not even sure I ever fought the legion unmodded. My personal theory is that the melee focus is just a show of machismo in a warrior culture.

 

That is a good point. If anything though, it totally reinforces CL's inadequacy though; the NCR has industrial output, towns, states, entire populations to Marshall, etc - how has the Legion managed to make similar progress with what they have (or what they don't have?)

 

The same way the mongols could conquer Asia, the same way the goths conquered the romans. An nomadic or semi-nomadic culture that basically incoporates it's entire civilization as fighting men can crush empires, especially if these are weak from internal dissent. Also, let's remember that the legion so far has NOT managed to defeat the NCR in any way, except possibly psycologically. We won't actually know who "really" won the second battle of hoover dam until there is some kind of canon answer to that...

 

And this is why I find it hard to buy his whole speech about New Vegas and his new capital. It's just that part of his dialogue I have a problem with though (lore wise of course) but like I said, I would love to see what the Legion actually looks like in their own lands.

 

I second that, would have been my favourite DLC...

 

But still, consider that the republic ALSO views Vegas as a special city, it is beyond anything they have as well. Likely Vegas is the greatest city remaining on the continent.

[ChancellorKremlin]

For me it's two main reasons... One is that I have the habit of starting new games a lot to try out and play with mods' date=' and excessive modding has several times made my old saves unplayable. The game don't seem to like you switching around mods too much.

 

Another is that after I track down and deal with Benny it feels like I actually [i']have[/i] finished the game. That is what I set out to do. I've never been to Jacobstown either, and while I do have all DLC installed, I haven't gotten around to more than Honest Hearts and Dead Money.

 

See, I like to experience the game vanilla first, and then try it out with mods. But I do understand the whole Benny thing, I also felt a little deflated after having dealt with him. It was like huh, that was it ey? Kinda like a bad pacing issue with the game. It does pick up though, but the motivations involved are entirely different. You're kinda forced to pick a side, even though as a character, you might not be remotely interested, which is off course problematic story wise.

 

I don't agree with your conclusions there...

 

First off' date=' "conquering Denver" might very well be the legion killing off a tribe of scavanger-hunters living in the ruins of Denver. Flagstaff we don't know any details about, it might very well be some shrine and a couple of tents for all we know (assuming that's not something you learn more about during the endgame). The standards for being a "doctor" might very well not be that strict, Siri might concievably have been training to be something we would call a witchdoctor for all we know...

 

As for traders, if we think historically there has always been traders who venture out into savage lands to trade, usually tribes had something that was scarce in more civilized lands, furs, ivory, slaves, horses. The tribes that make up the legion might very well have large hoardes of pre-war technology that they don't know what to do with, that they are willing to sell to traders. Also there could be trading between the tribes of the legion and tribes not (yet) conquered by the legion.

 

The trading business in post-nuclear america is of a very limited nature, apperently Cass's little caravan of, what was it? 2-3 Brahmins was considered a pretty big outfit, even by Californian standards. We are not talking mass trade here.[/quote']

 

Well, Anthony talks of Denver as if being a city, and the simple fact these places are named by name seems to indicate they are more than just some tribal village. Flagstaff is actually a real city in Arizona, and again, the fact it's their capital surely must indicate there is *something* there. This is off course conjecture from both our parts, but I don't feel Caesar and Anthony would mention it if it weren't of any importance.

 

As for Siri, I don't think that would be the case. Whenever, in Fallout, character's refer to primitive or tribal 'doctors' they do so as Healers, Shamans, medicine men and so forth. "Doctors" tend to only be reserved to civilized folk, and the fact she mentions now getting that far into her 'training' indicates it was a rather advanced level of medicine they practised in whatever town she was taken from.

 

Your trading point though, is perfectly accurate though. Damn Obsidian for not giving us a clearer picture of what the Legion has in their possession!

 

Well' date=' obviously the NCR would have a higher life expectancy, but the legion makes up for that with numbers. An army of fanatics can do that, if the deathtoll starts to rise in the NCR infantry you will have mass desertions. The legion also pretty much "lives" on it's reputation too. The fear their crucifictions, mad rushes and slavetaking inspire among the NCR is part of it's overall effectivness. The NCR is at the extreme end of it's supply lines, with a demoralised and underequipped army, there is mention in-game that some of the kids the get shipped out to the mojave dont "even have body-armor", and that she (the former sarge-gone-weaponsdealer att the 188) often gives the troopers passing through a few extra rounds, heavily implying that there is a severe shortage of ammo.[/quote']

 

I'm not entirely on board with the assumption that the Legion has larger numbers than the NCR. I've always assumed the NCR was substantially larger than the Legion, and that because of it's higher population, it can rely on more soldiers. Is there anywhere in the game that says the Legion have more soldiers, or in the lore?

 

You are correct though, the NCR is totally demoralised, under-equipped, under trained and over extended. The Legion also does thrive on ambushes, all that is made clear throughout the game.

 

Assuming the legion fights with any kind of brain at all (lore-wise' date=' not commenting on their in-game performance) we would also have to assume that for smaller engagements they do what tribals always have done in a war situation, fight primarily through ambushes. For a squad of 3-4, with no means of calling in backup, that isn't that bad.

 

The Taliban (who I think are fairly "comparable" to the legion in mindset and technology level) have managed to deal pretty much damage to ISAF, even when ISAF have close air support, aerial recon, artillery and vehicles, none of the which the NCR have. Still, the taliban don't rush at troopers with knifes, but can we honestly say that that is the legion's main tactic? Most legionaries I have seen have been armed with firearms. That MAY be due to the mods I use, as I said, I haven't played unmodded for years, and I am not even sure I ever fought the legion unmodded. My personal theory is that the melee focus is just a show of machismo in a warrior culture.[/quote']

 

In the unmodded game, I would say about half of their numbers are made of machette yielding soldiers, and the NCR and people you speak to ingame make a big point about how their main tactics consist of rushing their enemies, overwhelming them in hand to hand combat, and such tactics.

 

The melee culture has it's place within Caesar's ideology, I just think for it to function as he envisages it (toughening it up as opposed to just recklessly throwing away lives) his soldiers need a little more protection, that's all.

 

The same way the mongols could conquer Asia' date=' the same way the goths conquered the romans. An nomadic or semi-nomadic culture that basically incoporates it's entire civilization as fighting men can crush empires, especially if these are weak from internal dissent. Also, let's remember that the legion so far has NOT managed to defeat the NCR in any way, except possibly psycologically. We won't actually know who "really" won the second battle of hoover dam until there is some kind of canon answer to that...[/quote']

 

The Mongols had vast swathes of land, with virtually no people in it. They controlled the most sparsely populated lands in the world at the time. What they did have were shitloads of horses, archers, well trained horsemen, and good leaders. It was only after they kicked Eurasia's ass that they incorporated settled people's into their domain. As I've said, I don't believe this is the case for CL, as I think he does in fact have quite a bit population in his backyard, especially with all the slaves involved - neither the mongols or the Goths started off with a huge slave population to take care off.

 

As for defeat, that is right, but the impression gives as you start FNV is that an NCR defeat is inevitable, because the Legion is basically everywhere at once, and humiliates the NCR on a daily basis. Ergo, it would *seem* that they possess the upper hand. Indeed, Caesar's strategy and tactics for conquering the damn at the second battle are quite superior to the NCR's, and were if not for the courier, its arguable he would win.

 

I second that' date=' would have been my favourite DLC...

 

But still, consider that the republic ALSO views Vegas as a special city, it is beyond anything they have as well. Likely Vegas is the greatest city remaining on the continent.

[/quote']

 

That's not entirely true. In Fallout 2, the NCR gets to control a load of cities that are quite developed. Shady Sands itself (the capital) is a newly built town, with roads, lighting, plumbing, sewers, capitol building. There is also New Reno, Arroyo, and a whole swathe of other towns. I think the only thing Vegas has is that it wasn't bombed, but it's been 200 years since the war ended, cities have been built since then. That is kinda a little issue I have with FO3/FNV, in some ways, they behave as if the war only happened 20-50 years ago... but that is a different issue altogether.

[sen4mi]

It does pick up though' date=' but the motivations involved are entirely different. You're kinda forced to pick a side, even though as a character, you might not be remotely interested, which is off course problematic story wise.[/quote']

 

This -- my having to pick an outcome, and a sequence of events that I am not interested in watching play out -- has been one of my reasons for not finishing the game.

 

Sometimes I might play a character that would want one of the endings, but that is not often.

 

Also, if I finish the game that way, it's over.

 

But progressive instability is also an issue. Since I have no tools for repairing save file corruption, it's difficult for me to make a game last long enough for me to complete it. Maybe if I focused specifically on finishing that would be different. But my role playing reflexes have me dawdling on the main quest.

[KainsChylde]

Wild Card does still kinda make you pick a side. Sure, its supposedly your own side, but you still have to work through Yes-Man.

 

As far as Benny being the end of the game goes, you're kinda working up to the rest of the game on your quest to find Benny, depending how you play. At the beginning you have to choose to help either the PG or Goodsprings (Ok, you don't "have" to, but its strongly encouraged). Later, in Primm you're introduced to some NCR incompetents and tasked with saving the town in order to pump Deputy Dog for info. Next you can either head straight to Nipton to witness Legion atrocities or go to the Mojave Outpost first for some resupply and more NCR interaction.

 

Past Nipton you can follow the quest marker to Novac and meet Boone (former NCR with a wife sold to Legion) or wander off to Searchlight (more Legion atrocities). After a small distraction with some born-again ghouls you're off to Boulder City, where you learn that the NCR isn't squeaky clean either, opening the door to considering a third choice, whatever that may be.

 

Continuing down the road, you eventually come to the big city everyone's on about. Along the way you learn more about the two big factions and a handful of small ones. You see how everyone interacts with and feels about the Big Two, and gain more info for forming your own decision. Then, on into the Strip. Here, you have two options: Go to the Lucky 38 first and meet your mysterious benefactor, or go to the Tops first and ice Mr. Checked Suit. By this point, depending how you've played and what you've done, you've been introduced to the bigger picture and know there's more going on. You've rescued and/or victimized a few people along the way and learned whats at stake for the region as a whole, your character included. I've seen the term "immersion" bandied about this and other sites a lot, and yet you guys claim that you feel no stake in the regions conflict beyond avenging yourself on Benny. But consider: Your character still has to live in the area. You do have a stake, in your character and his/her companions' future. Yes, Benny is dead and you've gotten your revenge, but now what? You still have to live, and you still have a stake in what that living will be like.

 

At least, that's how I felt as I played.

[sen4mi]

Wild Card does still kinda make you pick a side.

 

Yes' date=' for me, that ending means that I have to become a robot backed dictator, or something nearly that bad.

 

At the beginning you have to choose to help either the PG or Goodsprings (Ok, you don't "have" to, but its strongly encouraged). Later, in Primm you're introduced to some NCR incompetents and tasked with saving the town in order to pump Deputy Dog for info. Next you can either head straight to Nipton to witness Legion atrocities or go to the Mojave Outpost first for some resupply and more NCR interaction.

 

Yes... Nipton has been enough that I have never been interested in siding with Legion. I have problems playing someone that bent on destruction. Which, I know, is silly, because this is a fighting game.

 

But you have other options. In my current game, the NCR prison admin building was unplayable, so I played the start of Lonesome Road after visiting Primm (but I left before getting the laser targeting device). I wound up in Novac without visiting either Nipton or the Mojave Outpost. And then I spent some time in the outskirts of New Vegas without visiting Boulder City, before I went back to visit Primm... I have played the game enough that I do not feel I need to be completely amnesiac about the terrain (except Lonesome Road was a "stumbled upon" -- and I had never played that before -- I usually play only low level characters -- but I had read that I did not have to finish it, so I wanted to see how far I could get with a starting character -- I am playing this time with jsawyer's mod and that might have made this possible?).

 

I've seen the term "immersion" bandied about this and other sites a lot' date=' and yet you guys claim that you feel no stake in the regions conflict beyond avenging yourself on Benny. But consider: Your character still has to live in the area. You do have a stake, in your character and his/her companions' future. Yes, Benny is dead and you've gotten your revenge, but now what? You still have to live, and you still have a stake in what that living will be like.

 

At least, that's how I felt as I played.

[/quote']

 

I think the conflict is stupid. And, I want something like a "Mr. House" ending, without the robots and probably without Mr. House. In other words, I want to cripple the Legion enough to take the fight out of them, and I want to do something similar to NCR's military ambitions, and then I want to arrange for someone else to run New Vegas. The NCR Rangers might be great, if I could separate them from the NCR. An alliance of the Boomers and Khans might also work, if I could get them enough support. Or, I could maybe live with the NCR if I could go fix the problems I see with the NCR. But I am not happy with them.

[Kashked]

Well, Anthony talks of Denver as if being a city, and the simple fact these places are named by name seems to indicate they are more than just some tribal village. Flagstaff is actually a real city in Arizona, and again, the fact it's their capital surely must indicate there is *something* there. This is off course conjecture from both our parts, but I don't feel Caesar and Anthony would mention it if it weren't of any importance.

 

As for Siri, I don't think that would be the case. Whenever, in Fallout, character's refer to primitive or tribal 'doctors' they do so as Healers, Shamans, medicine men and so forth. "Doctors" tend to only be reserved to civilized folk, and the fact she mentions now getting that far into her 'training' indicates it was a rather advanced level of medicine they practised in whatever town she was taken from.

 

As you say, both are conclusions here are pure conjecture and there is no way to say who is correct until we get some kind of canon answer. I am just saying that what I am describing is just as likely as what you are describing, which would explain what you see as weak points in the story. If we are assuming you are correct then that is true, I am just pointing out that you can make an alternative conclusion based on the availible information that is just as valid and that works with what we see.

 

I'm not entirely on board with the assumption that the Legion has larger numbers than the NCR. I've always assumed the NCR was substantially larger than the Legion, and that because of it's higher population, it can rely on more soldiers. Is there anywhere in the game that says the Legion have more soldiers, or in the lore?

 

While it is withouth doubt that the NCR has a larger population, we must remember that most of that population is in California, and secondly, that most of that population is made up of civilians. The legion is basically an nation in arms, every grown man is a warrior.

 

The melee culture has it's place within Caesar's ideology, I just think for it to function as he envisages it (toughening it up as opposed to just recklessly throwing away lives) his soldiers need a little more protection, that's all.

 

I agree, but no such protection is availible, making the point moot. Sure, the legion would be more effective in powerarmor, but that isn't an option for them.

 

The Mongols had vast swathes of land, with virtually no people in it. They controlled the most sparsely populated lands in the world at the time. What they did have were shitloads of horses, archers, well trained horsemen, and good leaders. It was only after they kicked Eurasia's ass that they incorporated settled people's into their domain. As I've said, I don't believe this is the case for CL, as I think he does in fact have quite a bit population in his backyard, especially with all the slaves involved - neither the mongols or the Goths started off with a huge slave population to take care off.

 

Well, mongols conquered both China and Persia, two of the most civilized areas in the world at the time, and integrated themselves into the elite, ruling a far larger population and over a couple of generations totally losing their nomadic heritage, which is an argument you can use to win the game (I haven't finished it myself, but saw an Youtube video showcasing how you can win the game withouth killing the Legate), that the legion could very well conquer the NCR, but in so doing it would separate them from their warrior roots and make them as weak as the republicans.

 

My main point with the mongol/goth examples is however that a culture which incorporates it's entire population into the armed forces can defeat a much larger culture with a smaller warrior class.

 

As for defeat, that is right, but the impression gives as you start FNV is that an NCR defeat is inevitable, because the Legion is basically everywhere at once, and humiliates the NCR on a daily basis. Ergo, it would *seem* that they possess the upper hand. Indeed, Caesar's strategy and tactics for conquering the damn at the second battle are quite superior to the NCR's, and were if not for the courier, its arguable he would win.

 

I wouldn't know anything about the endgame, but I do agree that the feeling in the mojave is that the legion is about to win. But that would have been the feeling about the nazis in 1941-42 as well... If the NCR got it's act togheter, united politically to meet the threat and gave the army and the rangers the resources they needed they would have a large technological and economical advantage over the legion. It is the division and demoralization within the NCR that is the legions greatest asset.

 

That's not entirely true. In Fallout 2, the NCR gets to control a load of cities that are quite developed. Shady Sands itself (the capital) is a newly built town, with roads, lighting, plumbing, sewers, capitol building. There is also New Reno, Arroyo, and a whole swathe of other towns. I think the only thing Vegas has is that it wasn't bombed, but it's been 200 years since the war ended, cities have been built since then. That is kinda a little issue I have with FO3/FNV, in some ways, they behave as if the war only happened 20-50 years ago... but that is a different issue altogether.

 

For all the NCR has achived it is still an culture that is in awe of the pre-war world, relics from the pre-war period, such as New Vegas, is valued.

And the war still has a huge impact on the lives of people, mainly through the irradiation and the fact that people still have the relics of the pre-war era all around them...

[sen4mi]

I have never played a Fallout* game where the ending is perfect or exactly what you expect. It's gritty moral ambiguity that's a hallmark of the franchise.

 

And some of my characters would happily play through to those ends, if the game did not flake out on me before I got that far.

 

Other characters, though, I see no reason to feel I have to "finish the game".

 

I am playing for fun. I am not playing to suit someone else's idea of how I should play!

[ChancellorKremlin]

I've found the Wild Card ending to be the most satisfying. It doesn't make you pick a side.

 

Yeah' date=' although it does tend to assume you give a damn about Vegas and would want to rule over it. Personally, I would find that ending more rewarding if the game allowed you to continue playing after the end.

 

Wild Card does still kinda make you pick a side. Sure, its supposedly your own side, but you still have to work through Yes-Man.

 

[snip]

 

I've seen the term "immersion" bandied about this and other sites a lot, and yet you guys claim that you feel no stake in the regions conflict beyond avenging yourself on Benny. But consider: Your character still has to live in the area. You do have a stake, in your character and his/her companions' future. Yes, Benny is dead and you've gotten your revenge, but now what? You still have to live, and you still have a stake in what that living will be like.

 

At least, that's how I felt as I played.

 

I do try and roleplay, by assuming my character is either a local, or has some sort of connection with the area. It does make playing either faction a lot easier, and more realistic too. It also depends whether I decide to play a good or evil character, its all sorta interlinked.

 

Yes' date=' for me, that ending means that I have to become a robot backed dictator, or something nearly that bad.[/quote']

 

Well, its not specified in the ending if you are going to be a dictator or just the guy in power, presumably you could be a sort of benevolent dictator, or just a bastard. But that's assuming you want power at all.

 

Yes... Nipton has been enough that I have never been interested in siding with Legion. I have problems playing someone that bent on destruction. Which' date=' I know, is silly, because this is a fighting game.[/quote']

 

I didn't let that stop me though, I only made my mind about the Legion much later, after I spoke to Caesar I think. It's not just that they are hellbent on destruction, I mean hell, the Romans massacred every nation they came across. Caesar actually exterminated a Belgic tribe, as in, he didn't even take prisoners, he just sent his men out and had every single one of them murdered.

 

But the Romans did bring laws, 'safety', civilization, engineering and architectural marvels, urbanisation, health and a host of other 'benefits'. My problem with FNV Legion is that they are more about the destruction and less about the development. Compared to NCR, House and even independent for that matter, they are clearly not the best choice, for that reason alone. House is right when you kill him for the Legion, you are in essence condemning humanity to slavery.

 

Which is why I feel there should have been a lot more exploration about Legion ideals, and better still, how their ideology and way of life works in practice, with towns and their own territory. As it is, all I see from them is the military and nothing more.

 

I think the conflict is stupid. And' date=' I want something like a "Mr. House" ending, without the robots and probably without Mr. House. In other words, I want to cripple the Legion enough to take the fight out of them, and I want to do something similar to NCR's military ambitions, and then I want to arrange for someone else to run New Vegas. The NCR Rangers might be great, if I could separate them from the NCR. An alliance of the Boomers and Khans might also work, if I could get them enough support. Or, I could maybe live with the NCR if I could go fix the problems I see with the NCR. But I am not happy with them.

[/quote']

 

I've always been an NCR man through and through. From Fallout 2 onwards, I've always done everything in my power to make them stronger, because for all their flaws, I believe they have the strongest potential to get mankind back on track. So my 'canon' play through in FNV is to basically be their bitch and do everything that will benefit them.

 

I have never played a Fallout* game where the ending is perfect or exactly what you expect. It's gritty moral ambiguity that's a hallmark of the franchise.

 

*Fallout 3 doesn't count as a Fallout game.

 

Yeah' date=' I remember how sad I was with Broken Hills in FO2, when I saw the endings slides. I was like *awh* I did everything to save the town, thought I'd left it in a wonderful state, and then it went to shit anyway. Brilliant if you ask me, life isn't always fair, and sometimes no matter how hard you try, a negative ending is inevitable sometimes...

 

As you say, both are conclusions here are pure conjecture and there is no way to say who is correct until we get some kind of canon answer. I am just saying that what I am describing is just as likely as what you are describing, which would explain what you see as weak points in the story. If we are assuming you are correct then that is true, I am just pointing out that you can make an alternative conclusion based on the availible information that is just as valid and that works with what we see.

 

Yeah, I totally see what you're saying. I'm hoping FO4 is done by Obsidian, because if Bethesda touch it they will ruin it. FO4 should really concentrate on the Legion, the region east of the Colorado, etc. Hopefully we will get some answers then!

 

While it is withouth doubt that the NCR has a larger population' date=' we must remember that most of that population is in California, and secondly, that most of that population is made up of civilians. The legion is basically an nation in arms, every grown man is a warrior.[/quote']

 

Yeah. It all boils back down to 'how do they manage their territory and their cities' - as in, I believe they must have some form of civilian population, even if mostly made up of slaves. Even warrior cultures, and tribes like the Mongols, had things like traders, poets, farmers, cattle herders and so forth.

 

But Caesar and the Legion are so vague about what is going on back in their lands its hard to make up an accurate picture.

 

I agree' date=' but no such protection is availible, making the point moot. Sure, the legion would be more effective in powerarmor, but that isn't an option for them.[/quote']

 

Yes, but I'm not talking about a substantial change here, all I am saying is an odd layer of metal or two. I've seen Jackals and Vipers which are more well armed and armoured than the Legion you know, which is just ridiculous.

 

Well' date=' mongols conquered both China and Persia, two of the most civilized areas in the world at the time, and integrated themselves into the elite, ruling a far larger population and over a couple of generations totally losing their nomadic heritage, which is an argument you can use to win the game (I haven't finished it myself, but saw an Youtube video showcasing how you can win the game withouth killing the Legate), that the legion could very well conquer the NCR, but in so doing it would separate them from their warrior roots and make them as weak as the republicans.

 

My main point with the mongol/goth examples is however that a culture which incorporates it's entire population into the armed forces can defeat a much larger culture with a smaller warrior class.[/quote']

 

That's true, and yes, Caesar does point out repeatedly that he kinda wants to take Vegas, not only to make it his new capital, but to shift the Legion from a mainly 'nomadic' group to a more settled one.

 

He sees it as a change from old Republican rome, to the Empire, in his own words. I think he is on to something, I just think the Legion are nowhere near as nomadic as he has them being. It's not like they are like the Khans.

 

And some of my characters would happily play through to those ends' date=' if the game did not flake out on me before I got that far.

 

Other characters, though, I see no reason to feel I have to "finish the game".

 

I am playing for fun. I am not playing to suit someone else's idea of how I should play!

[/quote']

 

Yeah, I like playing the games endings just to see what they are like, ie getting my money's worth, but after that, I rarely 'finish' the games again. When I start a new character, it's basically one with little to no interest in the main story line, and I just make up a story as I go, ie am I a scavenger, what would I be doing as one? Am I a Legion Slaver, etc. As in, basic role play. Sometimes it coincides with the main story, sometimes it doesn't.

 

======================================================================

 

It's funny, in my head, this has gone from a simple Legion Overhaul to a proper Wasteland overhaul, with changes to NCR as well as the Legion, and even the Brotherhood too (probably by incorporating Loogie's power armour) - still basically an armour mod overall though.

 

Btw, does anyone know if its possible to:

 

A) Have a weapon that offers DT/DR as an affect

 

and

 

Have any form of armour that only offers directional protection, as in like a shield, it only protects from the front, etc?

 

Cheers.

[KainsChylde]

I read something interesting on No Mutants Allowed that answers some questions here. They provided a link to their source, so I'll just share that. It's J.E. Sawyer explaining some background on what would have been, had they the buget and time to add it:

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/325677464040792162

Also, as an added bonus, the explanation for lack of post-ending gameplay:

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/321813718004411609

[Kashked]

I do try and roleplay, by assuming my character is either a local, or has some sort of connection with the area. It does make playing either faction a lot easier, and more realistic too.

 

Personally I can't do that... Through dialogue we learn a bit about the Courier (check out "The courier" on the wiki for details), and there we learn that the courier has been all over northern california and into Utah, as well as founded a survivalist community in the Divide. In my mind that makes only one kind of character really "viable", that is a traveller (a courier, a trader, a mercenary, whatever) who has travelled around California a lot, but never came to Nevada until very recently. Sure, you could say that the shot in the head caused memory loss (I know the Willow mod makes this assumption) but that doesn't explain why you don't meet a single person who knows you since before...

[Menesh]

 

I didn't let that stop me though' date=' I only made my mind about the Legion much later, after I spoke to Caesar I think. It's not just that they are hellbent on destruction, I mean hell, the Romans massacred every nation they came across. Caesar actually exterminated a Belgic tribe, as in, he didn't even take prisoners, he just sent his men out and had every single one of them murdered.

 

[/quote']

 

Actually the roman senate had decided to leave the celtic tribes alone, probably because they feared that if the republic grew even larger it would be too difficult to control.

Gaius Iulius Caesar however was a narcissic bastard with an Alexander complex who hungered for popularity and the chance to conquer new lands, so he started the war claiming each new tribe he came across was plotting attacks against the republic. Hell, he slaughtered Helvetians who had politely requested permission to cross roman territory looking for new lands in Spain to settle on.

Rome hadn't been an example of mercy before either - noone in this time had - and Caesar was the child of the roman culture that honored popularity over everything, but I have difficulties to see him as a typical roman leader. He didn't even want to rule Rome, it was just that after removing all the fools who didn't accnowledge him the way he wanted, noone but him was left to rule.

[Pr0n]

Sorry for the necro, but people should learn about ballistics and how ineffective simple metal is against any form of bullet before claiming the Legion using leather is stupid.. There's a reason soldiers stopped wearing armor once the musket was in mass use, because it was pointless and just added weight. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-bbk321lo4 that's just a 9mm absolutely melting 1/6th sheet steel.