The difference between Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim skillwise

[Kaz Aanh]

 

I just hate skyrim for generalizing classes.

So you can become a warrior that shoots fireballs and can sneak and assasinate with a bows.

 

All in one.

 

Also I miss speech skills, more diplomatic choices, morrowind trading system was a lot better. They just forgot about a people who like to play in a peacefull way, without fighting.

 

But muhh meme shouting

Perkus Maximus has got a lot of that covered because it really induces you to specialise. There's not much room for jack of all trades gameplay. 

 

There are so many fun little toys and effects to be gained as you go up a perk tree that it's really hard to justify spreading your perks around, you feel like you're missing out on specialist stuff that can be quite game changing.

 

Consequently, my little glass jawed no armor two handed illusion specialist is very tightly focused, by level 31 I haven't spent a single perk that wasn't meaningful to how she plays. She's more than viable, but she definitely is a specialist, and I can't imagine being able to throw perks around for a while yet. 

 

 

Yes , mods. They help a lot. 

 

We all probably should get used to the Bethesda products. At least they are so open for modding so we can shape our game to our tastes.

 

Speaking of gameplay: I play as a immune to magic ( yeah sounds op ) but its my little lore where I'm not able to learn/cast any magics or use potions at all, yep health potions too. So I'm heavily dependant on my equipment and technology like traps,elixirs,oils,bandages,my trusty xbow and a sword.

 

 

See, I don't think generalization is necessarily a bad thing. Skyrim's execution of it, maybe, but not to core idea of "You wanna be a heavy armor archer-mage? Sure!" Versatility should be rewarded just as much as specialization, and I don't think leveling to godhood is a bad idea. Leveling up everything is a choice the player makes - the game doesn't require it at any point. You aren't made to be an Archmage and a Nightingale at the same time. You choose to run those quests. You choose to vary your approach between sneaking and murder-death-killing. Some of Skyrim's generalization problems would be solved simply by doing what Morrowind did - implementing skill level gates that require you actually be good at your chosen profession to advance. Sure you can still do everything, but only if you want to level most of your skills to 75+.

 

Speech would be so great. New Vegas has it just about right, I thought. Lots of opportunity for Speech to matter. Skyrim could have benefited a lot from NV's speech implementation. Imagine the negotiation scene at High Hrothgar if being a smooth talker could actually have made a difference.

 

Well you are correct here,its not that bad if you think deeper about it. It opens alot more build paths for a player like a spellthief,battlemage,arcane archer, paladin. 

 

Lets just hope Bethesda will borrow some ideas from the New Vegas , becouse that part of the game was a huge letdown. Skyrim needs more varied choices,more use of speech skill, more interesting ways of completing your quests. Like it was with the paarthunax killing , I was really disappointed there.

 

Thanks god we have mods.

 

@I had to edit my post few times

[XJ347]

I want classes and birthsigns back.

 

100% disagree. I HATE classes and birthsigns.

 

I do think Skyrim went to far simplifying things, but cutting classes is one of the better things they did. You can still role play a spellsword with or without the spellsword class. I just hate classes in general because they set limits, I am what I want my character to be.

 

---

 

What I miss through is actual usage of Speech. I find it to be a total joke in Skyrim. No real way to increase it really, and so little ways to actually use it.

[DMCDante]

 

I want classes and birthsigns back.

 

100% disagree. I HATE classes and birthsigns.

 

I do think Skyrim went to far simplifying things, but cutting classes is one of the better things they did. You can still role play a spellsword with or without the spellsword class. I just hate classes in general because they set limits, I am what I want my character to be.

 

---

 

What I miss through is actual usage of Speech. I find it to be a total joke in Skyrim. No real way to increase it really, and so little ways to actually use it.

 

 

This, so much this. One thing I hate (mind you it's a personal preference) in video games is limitations. I hate it when a game limits me for the sake of difficulty or whatnot. I mean if I want a limit I don't need the game to do it for me, I'll limit myself.

 

I always found it weird people needed a mod to disable fast travel, what exactly stopped you from simply ignoring it while playing? Same can be said if people don't want to be a heavy armor wearing two hander warrior that can cast great magicks, simply do not use magicks.

 

What I do agree with the majority is skyrim really needs more diversity when it comes to completing quests, there should be more outcomes or there should be counter part quests for roleplayers. If you can join and become the master of the thieves guild there should be a counter part quest that allows you to find, hunt and put a stop to the thieves beside the generic running into their hideout and murdering everyone.

 

But the main thing about Bethesda games will always be mods for me since they can change everything that is being discussed here, I essentially pay money not for a game but a sandbox and that is the main thing I never want them to limit or god forbid remove.

[Guest]

This is TES we're talking about, not AD&D.  You just start out with some attributes weighted according to the archetype you choose, but there's nothing stopping you stomping around in steel armor throwing electricity about if that's your thing. 

 

But it should feel like there are some natural, common sense limitations on these things or everybody not exercising some self restraint is going to end up with bland, homogenized swiss army knife characters, because there's no brakes . And advocating self restraint to make up for a loose setup is just handing games designers an excuse not to bother worrying about things making sense anymore. 

 

Making choices, some of them hard, and living with them - that's what I want from rpgs, not a boringly inevitable march towards godhood. 

[Kuロi]

Honestly, you have too look at it from both angles :

 

Sure, they could have locked you out of some stuff and put "brakes" to restraint players from widening their branches too much. But then you'd hear players say "Why can't I both be this and this" or "Why can't I master everything and literally become the embodiment of god".

 

What they can do whoever, is not block you out of stuff, and players that want to block themselves out can do it should they want to. Just like the guy that wants to master everything can do the same.

 

I've broken games with leveling Restoration, so I've stopped using it. I've broken games from leveling too fast from Alchemy/Enchanting/Forging so I've started to only use one of them or regulate/balance all of them out. It's safer to leave a door open that the player can close than simply filling the room with concrete and hoping no one wanted to head in it.

 

 

I will agree that New Vegas' speech system far beats any TES. In fact, even without speech, I just feel so much more in control of my character's choices in Fallout. Where in Fallout I could literally tell someone to fuck off with his demands, in Skyrim it's more like "Okay, I'm gonna listen to you, and keep a note of your demands in my journal, but I'm gonna ignore you for the rest of my life. I'm sure this'll put you and your stupid mace back in your place, Molag Bal" I wish I could have just told him to fuck off, and then he gets angry and summons himself or something.

 

Skyrim flat out beats older TES leveling system, but RP-wise, most of it is done in your head while your character is either forced to do something or chooses ignore it, and that's what Beth really needs to focus on.

[White Divinity]

Skill wise, Skyrim wins for sure, the perk tree system is amazing.

 

however, one thing that i didn't like about Skyrim was the men design, in oblivion, you could create a young male easily, but in skyrim, oh my... without modding you will be stuck with a 55 years old grandpa who will die from age just after he kill alduin.

 

Even after i created my male in skyrim using 50+ mods that effects males, i still prefer my oblivion male that was created using way less mods.

[Mebrilia]

I just point this....

 

My spellsword in skyrim is just a generic warrior that use some alteration spells and destruction one...

 

My spellsword in morrowind is a total expert able not only to fight with a long sword not wearing any armor but also to use properly conjuration,mysticism,distruction,illusion and alteration spells...

 

Skyrim with his "perks" just restrain how you can shape a character... I always laught when people just bash who loves morrowind accusing to have the eye tinted in nostalgia...

 

Morrowind allows me to roleplay a character... Starting with me super weak and improve in a harsh world that always challenge me... Not even mention lore wise quest wise morrowind is far better than skyrim...Even not mentioned the game is totally dymanic and not only you can solve question in different manner but you can see also how your action have effect in the world... In skyrim this thing is total absent...Dynamic faction system.. Politics..Myths to discover... there is a lot in morrowind... Yes maybe some people whine because of the miss mechanic.. but as a attribute skill system is way superior to skyrim simple by the fact that allow you to make yes a specialized character but even versatile ones...

 

While in skyrim the mage is just a generic pew pew fire freeze and ice.. in morrowind ennemy blind you.. paralyze you...and they can do also way worse things.... 

 

And what about the dialogues in skyrim?.... wow... is hard to immerse when every npc have 2 lines of dialogues....

 

Ended the main quest, tribunal and bloodmoon and i am still praticing magic because there is always something new to discover around the world...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ

 

see that video and you will understand the difference

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wujJnlsJh4

 

and this is a video that compare the main quest of skyrim with the one of morrowind... spolier allert

[Coopervane]

Frankly if you're trying to play an honest character, you shouldn't have gone to the Thieves' Guild to start with.

 

Well, that's part of the problem with Skyrim. In most cases you are not given any option to refuse quests, and several important things like shouts are in quest-locked dungeons that you only get access to via the faction quests. Other things too mind, you're not going to encounter werewolves in the game unless you become a Companion, you'll have a horrible time of using magic without access to the College, and you can't even enter there without also joining up (and the game even forces you to do so as part of the main quest), and various other annoyances.

 

Looking at the mechanics of the game, it's painfully obvious that Bethesda intended for the player to do all the quests and join all the factions, regardless of how much sense that makes from an RP standpoint. And there is no conequence to doing it either, you want to be best buddies with Molag Bal? The Vigil don't care. You want to be a thief or assasin? Go right on ahead, no other faction will be bothered by that, you can waltz around town in your Dark Brotherhood outfit and nobody cares, and so on and so forth.

 

 

So no, i don't think "then just don't do it" is a good argument, because that's clearly not how the game was designed. Sure you can abstain, but you're not doing yourself any favours by doing so, but are infact playing contrary to what the game's mechanics were designed to do.

 

 

I do feel this lack of choice and consequence is a major failing of Skyrim, this could all have been handled a lot better. As is, it's functional, but messy and shallow, but all of this both could and should have been handled better.

The only faction quest they actually tried this with was the brotherhood, in that you actually are given a choice to not join them but wipe them out instead. However, you still have to commit a murder to wipe them out, so even that can't really be called "the good guy's alternative" (even if Grelod is a terrible person).

[CrimsonBlood2012]

Major and Minor Skills are still there in Skyrim, but you can't choose what they are anymore

 

[Duoleb The Chosen]

and we know that fallout 4 will be dumbfied

 

 

unless bethesda stop playing the goofball and follow what they said about staying far as the fuck away from Skyrim, sinc everyone bitched about how NV and fallout 3 were oblivion with guns

[Kuロi]

I just point this....

 

My spellsword in skyrim is just a generic warrior that use some alteration spells and destruction one...

 

My spellsword in morrowind is a total expert able not only to fight with a long sword not wearing any armor but also to use properly conjuration,mysticism,distruction,illusion and alteration spells...

 

Skyrim with his "perks" just restrain how you can shape a character... I always laught when people just bash who loves morrowind accusing to have the eye tinted in nostalgia...

 

Morrowind allows me to roleplay a character... Starting with me super weak and improve in a harsh world that always challenge me... Not even mention lore wise quest wise morrowind is far better than skyrim...Even not mentioned the game is totally dymanic and not only you can solve question in different manner but you can see also how your action have effect in the world... In skyrim this thing is total absent...Dynamic faction system.. Politics..Myths to discover... there is a lot in morrowind... Yes maybe some people whine because of the miss mechanic.. but as a attribute skill system is way superior to skyrim simple by the fact that allow you to make yes a specialized character but even versatile ones...

 

While in skyrim the mage is just a generic pew pew fire freeze and ice.. in morrowind ennemy blind you.. paralyze you...and they can do also way worse things.... 

 

And what about the dialogues in skyrim?.... wow... is hard to immerse when every npc have 2 lines of dialogues....

 

Ended the main quest, tribunal and bloodmoon and i am still praticing magic because there is always something new to discover around the world...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ

 

see that video and you will understand the difference

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wujJnlsJh4

 

and this is a video that compare the main quest of skyrim with the one of morrowind... spolier allert

 

 

I'm just gonna say this. You are right, in a way. But the problem is not the perk system itself, rather it is which perks Bethesda gave to the game. Specifically, the mage perks : Illusion and Conjuration are and feel powerful, but then you've got Destruction, the "I want to burn, freeze and shock everything and anything my way" tree, that is completely weak in vanilla. If you play on anything over adept Destruction's simply not worth it.

 

But that doesn't mean the perk system is a failure. It means the perks themselves are the problem. Otherwise the perk system allows you to build whatever character you want, the problem is that not every path is completely viable. You can't blame the levelling system for that.

 

On the other hand Morrowind had you grind stuff unnecessarily and completely out of character in a way. you want a tanky mage? go hit some rats with your fists or a club for a couple hours.. That's a leveling system issue, not a unbalanced perk tree one. It is completely unfair to ask the player to grind something simply because, well, that's the way it works.

 

Just like how it is unfair that destruction in Skyrim is weak. But again, different issue. Skyrim dumbed it down, but it was for the good of the player. You leveled ? Up one stat, choose a perk. It's simple, but it doesn't force you to do something you don't want to do.You want more HP as a mage? Go ahead. More Stamina? Go ahead. Don't need to bash stuff with your fists.

 

So I'll say it again. You are right. Skyrim's perks are unbalanced, and do keep you from going certain paths, or force you to don't go too far in one *cough*sneak*cough*. But that's not because the leveling system sucks. That's because they dun goofed with the perks themselves. Luckily, mods can fix that.

[afa]

Quest design and dialog choices have little to do with the skill system.

Skyrim magic system fails not because of the skills or its perks, but rather the limited spells selection and general weakness of offensive magic.

Morrowind feels like there is a significant progression of the character because zones aren't leveled like Oblivion and onward.

 

Morrowind sort of lock you in limited areas until your character is strong enough to venture onward because strong enemies will likely kill you, while later games in the series/engine sort of let you free roam up to a certain extend due to scaling. Rather that's good or not is arguable.

Once you crack open how the system works, it's just a matter of following your plan and proceed to build your character in all games.

 

Edit: On the topic of Skyrim magic.

It is still viable, even Destruction. For better or worse the game is not difficult (to put it lightly, lol) to the point where Destruction isn't viable, hell Impact alone makes the Destruction viable and dual casting worth it.

It is just that we have seen the light of 2000+ damage weapons which makes the puny 200 damage dual casting Destruction spells insignificant.

[Uno]

My only real complain about Skyrim, as a whole, is the fake sense of being/become the ultimate all-in-one McGyver. Doesn't mean that Bethesda wanted the player to be a multi-talented archmage-physco killer-furry ass-robber-bipolar guy, is just that that way was the only way they had to justify Skyrim as a game with massive and interesting content. That's how they support the idea of unlimited playability, freedom of choice, innovating dynamics, etc. We all know it's a big lie. 

Apart, there's another thing that annoys the shit out of me and It's the crappy engine limitations. Right now it's a miracle to run mods like frostfall, Isoku's mods and several others together without killing your game. Next time they better give us a proper pc game and not a crappy console port so we can mod the game into a brand new survival truck simulator if we pleases.  

O_O I missed the point of this thread...yeah, whatever.

[gvman3670]

My only real complain about Skyrim, as a whole, is the fake sense of being/become the ultimate all-in-one McGyver. Doesn't mean that Bethesda wanted the player to be a multi-talented archmage-physco killer-furry ass-robber-bipolar guy, is just that that way was the only way they had to justify Skyrim as a game with massive and interesting content. That's how they support the idea of unlimited playability, freedom of choice, innovating dynamics, etc. We all know it's a big lie. 

Apart, there's another thing that annoys the shit out of me and It's the crappy engine limitations. Right now it's a miracle to run mods like frostfall, Isoku's mods and several others together without killing your game. Next time they better give us a proper pc game and not a crappy console port so we can mod the game into a brand new survival truck simulator if we pleases.  

O_O I missed the point of this thread...yeah, whatever.

 

Just to point this out, for clarity's sake if nothing else, all the last three Elder Scrolls games (and FO3 and FONV as well) have ALL been console games. Morrowind was just as much a console game as it was a PC game, and modded nearly as often!

 

Only Arena and Daggerfall weren't ported to consoles (or console games ported to PC). And as far as I can tell the coding between Xbox/XB360 and PC games is very, very similar....you can even move game saves from the console to the PC.

 

And they most certainly will make it a console game that's ported to PC. Whether we here like it or not the lion's share of their sales are to the console owners/players. Just be glad you can easily mod it on your PC.

 

[Mebrilia]

 

I just point this....

 

My spellsword in skyrim is just a generic warrior that use some alteration spells and destruction one...

 

My spellsword in morrowind is a total expert able not only to fight with a long sword not wearing any armor but also to use properly conjuration,mysticism,distruction,illusion and alteration spells...

 

Skyrim with his "perks" just restrain how you can shape a character... I always laught when people just bash who loves morrowind accusing to have the eye tinted in nostalgia...

 

Morrowind allows me to roleplay a character... Starting with me super weak and improve in a harsh world that always challenge me... Not even mention lore wise quest wise morrowind is far better than skyrim...Even not mentioned the game is totally dymanic and not only you can solve question in different manner but you can see also how your action have effect in the world... In skyrim this thing is total absent...Dynamic faction system.. Politics..Myths to discover... there is a lot in morrowind... Yes maybe some people whine because of the miss mechanic.. but as a attribute skill system is way superior to skyrim simple by the fact that allow you to make yes a specialized character but even versatile ones...

 

While in skyrim the mage is just a generic pew pew fire freeze and ice.. in morrowind ennemy blind you.. paralyze you...and they can do also way worse things.... 

 

And what about the dialogues in skyrim?.... wow... is hard to immerse when every npc have 2 lines of dialogues....

 

Ended the main quest, tribunal and bloodmoon and i am still praticing magic because there is always something new to discover around the world...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jf0jiOpD-AQ

 

see that video and you will understand the difference

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wujJnlsJh4

 

and this is a video that compare the main quest of skyrim with the one of morrowind... spolier allert

 

 

I'm just gonna say this. You are right, in a way. But the problem is not the perk system itself, rather it is which perks Bethesda gave to the game. Specifically, the mage perks : Illusion and Conjuration are and feel powerful, but then you've got Destruction, the "I want to burn, freeze and shock everything and anything my way" tree, that is completely weak in vanilla. If you play on anything over adept Destruction's simply not worth it.

 

But that doesn't mean the perk system is a failure. It means the perks themselves are the problem. Otherwise the perk system allows you to build whatever character you want, the problem is that not every path is completely viable. You can't blame the levelling system for that.

 

On the other hand Morrowind had you grind stuff unnecessarily and completely out of character in a way. you want a tanky mage? go hit some rats with your fists or a club for a couple hours.. That's a leveling system issue, not a unbalanced perk tree one. It is completely unfair to ask the player to grind something simply because, well, that's the way it works.

 

Just like how it is unfair that destruction in Skyrim is weak. But again, different issue. Skyrim dumbed it down, but it was for the good of the player. You leveled ? Up one stat, choose a perk. It's simple, but it doesn't force you to do something you don't want to do.You want more HP as a mage? Go ahead. More Stamina? Go ahead. Don't need to bash stuff with your fists.

 

So I'll say it again. You are right. Skyrim's perks are unbalanced, and do keep you from going certain paths, or force you to don't go too far in one *cough*sneak*cough*. But that's not because the leveling system sucks. That's because they dun goofed with the perks themselves. Luckily, mods can fix that.

 

Then i am going to answer here

 

The grinding how you call it.. is still present in skyrim as it should be because of course like in real life if you want to learn to be effective in something you must pratice or get used of it... There is also a in lore written example in one of the morrowind books involving the tale of the birth of bonemold armor...  Is not true in morrowind you grind out of character again if you want become viable in something you have to get used of it... also in morrowind there are trainers of course if you want be trained you have to pay life is unfair... This is a normal progression mechanic in a rpg..

 

Problem with skyrim is perk points are the only true usefull in the game... You can level a skill to 100 but if you have not the perk of it will be almost useless..This restrain per see since perk points are limited and if you are going to make a versatile character you simply can't.. you still have to stick to preset way more than in morrowind... Even in morrowind minor skills ((the one outside of your class) can be trained properly and guess what? doing so at level up you will earn bonus in stats the skill you trained are associated so you can eventually train them more...

 

But maybe is just me... I tend to love content and complexity instead of dumbed down mechanics and lack of features...

 

I am not saying morrowind system is perfect.... I will gladly get rid of the miss mechanic too.. or at least show off an animation of evading or parring when you miss... 

 

In the end the whole argument "duh hurr.. i dislike stat system and birthsign because they limit you to stay on centairn preset" not only is totally wrong but still people complain about this and then praise the skyrim system that is indeed way more limited?

 

Ah the internet

 

Also is not also true that morrowind locks you in certain area because ennemy are not leveled... Ennemy in morrowind are based on many factors... Background lorewise of the area... How far is the civilization... You can meet weak ennemy and strong one in the same area.... This adds a lot of challenge on the game and make feel the world alive.... Unlike jumping around naked because i don't have to worry all the encounters are leveled...that is one of the dumbing down mechanics added with oblivion

 

if you go in a daedric ruin at level 2 and then you whine because you die with a blow...then sorry but you are a total idiot and the game is right because it should be in that way it add the world complexity challenge and depth...

 

Instead in skyrim you kill a dragon at level 3...

 

LEVEL 3! sorry if capped but this thing is so much stupid that deserves it...

 

Skyrim is just plain bad unmodded... and not only in a skill wise leveling things.. but also at the core of design and gameplay...And even much more bad in a rpg point of  view....

 

The archmage example is what i am talking about here... You can become archmage of winterhold with only a light spell...that is wow...talking about out of character things....

 

When a supposed to be RPG fails in the RPG department .....well... there is nothing more to add..