[WIP] A new body replacement idea.

[barjack]

Hi gentlemen~

I found people mostly play Skyrim with ENB,it's very nice.But those effects cost too much PC performance.

Unless you have a very powerful pc.or you won't be able to play it smoothly,,most ppl only use ENB to take pictures.

So here I have a motivation to create a new body replacement for ENB environment.

Some principles I gonna follow.

 

1.Texture size gonna be limited only 2048x2048,why? because this size is big enogh for gamming,and since it's ENB based,,it gonna support sub-surface scattering,2048x2048 texture with SSS is pretty enough even it's for taking picture purpose for my personal opnion.

 

2.The poly count number.I took a look at the body mesh of UNP and CBBE, their poly count are 12000+,,lots of details can be presented by normal maps.Compare with vanilla's body it's only about 2500(not includeing face).12000+ for body only is far way too much,So I will set my poly count number about  3000-4000 considering a scene with lots of characters,this setting is much playable.

 

3.This body will use XPMS maximum compatibiity skeleton.I like this,,Because the author released all resouce files including harvok configuration data.This set make it's much easier for future expansion like the new physic module recently posted here.

 

4.I am still considring the compatibility with vanilla races,to make it compatible with vanilla quests,,I should make a morph for werewolf,right?Are there any other compatiblity issues i should take into consideration?

 

This is just a very early thinking and notes for myself,,Please share your opnions and point out my errors.

Thank you:)

 

 

Edit:

Released all resource files,you can grab it in nexus

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/49287/?

 

 

[dTd]

Have you looked at Dream Girl body? It's low poly but high detail. http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/41443//?

[barjack]

Have you looked at Dream Girl body? It's low poly but high detail. http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/41443//?

 

Thanks,i didn't know there is already a body replacement trying to cut down the poly count number.But it's poly count is still a bit too high for smoothing game play.

It's a nice piece of work,I think I will still work for my own version.

[Kendo 2]

Take a look at the e55 body. (I don't have the link but a Nexus search will show it.) Eronel55 made it and I used it when I was playing Skyrim. I liked it enough to do a few vanilla conversions for it and I HATED modding Skyrim. Anyway, the overall shape is based the Victoria 5 Daz/Poser body so it looks nice AND it has a reasonable vert count. Eronel spent a lot of time on the rigging and weights so it actually performs better than UNP or CBBE. I never tried it with a player-made skeleton though, just vanilla. Oh, the mod has better hands and feet to. Texture-wise, it already has 2048x2048 as a base, it has real baked normals (like vanilla Skyrim body texts) and it is virtually seamless provided you use the normals that come with the mod.

 

EDIT:  I'm friends with eronel and I know he'd like to hear from you if you're interested in working with that body.

[Absurdity]

Just a little correction, CBBE's poly count is 6516 not ~12000 and you can definitely see the difference in mesh detail between 12000 and 6000.

[barjack]

Just a little correction, CBBE's poly count is 6516 not ~12000 and you can definitely see the difference in mesh detail between 12000 and 6000.

 

yes,you're correct CBBE only has 6516 triangles.however,I still hope we can have a 3000-4000 poly replacement option.

 

Take a look at the picture i uploaded,test.jpg, It's dream girl mesh.I think the red colored part i drawed should be able to cut further more polygons,,because anatomically these part are mostly bones,ribs and pelvis,etc.almost no distortion.So I'll try to model it.

 

Kendo. I found e55 body and d/l it.Still can't find time to study it yet.How about the difference between Victoria4 and Victoria5?From the pictures i found i google,personally I like V4's outline ,it's a bit smoother compare with V5.But if there is no big topology difference,,I'll be glad to use it for remodelling into the shape i like.

[Kendo 2]

I never tinkered with V4 so I don't know anything about it.  The little bit of DAZ I've done was with V5 and I was happy.  One BIG bonus to e55 is the uv maps will work with vanilla armor and clothing with little or no texture lapping.

 

If you can improve on the model I'm almost certain he'll agree.  And I can always email him on your behalf if you need me to.

[GECK.O]

Logically high polygon body slow down PC performance....But I never notice any slow down when trying all the popular body, plus high polygon custom hair too.

 

I did something else to make the game faster and responsive, like using lower world textures (but you won't notice anything different). And reducing the head texture to 512x512 and hand texture to 512-256, while body is still 2048x2048. And deactivate some of the ENB settings.

 

 

[barjack]

Logically high polygon body slow down PC performance....But I never notice any slow down when trying all the popular body, plus high polygon custom hair too.

 

I did something else to make the game faster and responsive, like using lower world textures (but you won't notice anything different). And reducing the head texture to 512x512 and hand texture to 512-256, while body is still 2048x2048. And deactivate some of the ENB settings.

 

There is something very interesting came to my mind few mins ago.Maybe we can further cut more memory usage.

Look,,here is the vanilla's resource assignment :

 

Head ------>texture_head.dds

body ------>texture_body.dds

 

Since this project is still in blue print stage.How about combining Head and body texture into single 2048x2048 texture?like this:

Head ---->texture_headbody.dds

body----->texture_headbody.dds

 

This will make painter even easier to avoid color difference problem in neck's seam area.

Others like ears,teeth,tongue etc ..these texture should be able to be combined too.

This method should save even more memory usage in theory,,right? Any disadvantage of this way?

 

[Kendo 2]

It would then become like the Lady Body and require repathed esps/esms for existing mods and all the official dlcs, but it can be done.  It would also require new normals for all of the races using that mesh and vampire variants.

[barjack]

It would then become like the Lady Body and require repathed esps/esms for existing mods and all the official dlcs, but it can be done.  It would also require new normals for all of the races using that mesh and vampire variants.

 

Oh,,yes,,i forgot normal map issue,,for normal races like human and elves should be okay,,but we're lacking original Hi-poly face models of lizard ,cat races.And further reducing the body texture's size,hmmm.maybe this is a bad idea:P

[Kendo 2]

I would avoid resizing skin textures if possible.  Something else to consider are the head mechanics.  New egm/egts/tris would have to be generated from the joined head and body.  Would character generation even work with that set up?  Would the face animations?  Lots of things to consider....

[barjack]

I would avoid resizing skin textures if possible.  Something else to consider are the head mechanics.  New egm/egts/tris would have to be generated from the joined head and body.  Would character generation even work with that set up?  Would the face animations?  Lots of things to consider....

 

 

Actually I had been made a full hi poly head replacement with another construction tool called SkyEdit.It let you touch more locked head part of official C/S

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes5Mod:SkyEdit

It had stopped the updating since 2012,,but it's still have some values to use.(However it's a bit buggy,sometimes the plugin you created with this tool will cause CTD)

Here is another tool i gonna try soon

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/25859/?

I had created all facial expression morphs for that mod,,but it's poly count was far way too high so i deleted.

After finishing body project,,i think i will do head replacement .To make a bit more detailed face with more reasonable poly count.

 

BTW,,since you talked about egm/egts/tris,,here is my memo of their purpose i read from oblivion's mod thread.plz correct it if i remember it wrong.

 

file extention           purpose

egm                >       head  helmet/hair morph related? (i only remember this part)

egt                  >       face texture compressed archieve(glowing texture of face?any tool to extract it now?)

tri                   >       combination of morph targets,have a few tools to deal with this kind of morph targets.           (search in nexus)

[barjack]

WIP,,basic body wiring done,,almost certain i'll be over my polygon budget.

Current polygon count: 1474 (quad) = 2948 (triangles).

 

For lots of reasons ,I really don't want to make this one compatible with vanilla heads.

I think I will combine with these 2 mods

Creating a Playable Race - The right way

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/10165/?

and

RaceCompatibility for Skyrim and Dawnguard

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/mods/24168/?

 

and make special face replacement to fit this body.Grrr,,,,still long way to go.

 

[junkacc]

The thing about Skyrim and its object space normals, if I understand correctly, is that you need to make high poly models for each morph (head and body) and project it onto your low poly.

 

I haven't looked into how Skyrim work with morphs but theoretically, your tri, egm files and body sliders need high poly --> low poly bake or you'll end up with weird discoloration issues. That's probably why Skyrim only allow pre-baked facegen options -- unlike tangent space normals (in all previous Bethesda games), object space is very restrictive about how far you can morph before distortions start appearing.

[barjack]

The thing about Skyrim and its object space normals, if I understand correctly, is that you need to make high poly models for each morph (head and body) and project it onto your low poly.

 

I haven't looked into how Skyrim work with morphs but theoretically, your tri, egm files and body sliders need high poly --> low poly bake or you'll end up with weird discoloration issues. That's probably why Skyrim only allow pre-baked facegen options -- unlike tangent space normals (in all previous Bethesda games), object space is very restrictive about how far you can morph before distortions start appearing.

 

Thank you for reminding this.Using z-brush to make high-poly model and bake into object space-normal map will be working in skyrim without trouble,right?that's why i keep my topology quad at moment.

Here is something I want to try with object-space normal map,have you ever been tried to bake mirrored mesh UV into skyrim's object-space normal map? Will it cause lighting difference in the central seam line?

I hope using this way to save some texture size and get the same result with high resolution texures(although i know it will be a bit repeating in the mirrored side)

[Arngrim11]

 

snip

 

Thank you for reminding this.Using z-brush to make high-poly model and bake into object space-normal map will be working in skyrim without trouble,right?that's why i keep my topology quad at moment.

Here is something I want to try with object-space normal map,have you ever been tried to bake mirrored mesh UV into skyrim's object-space normal map? Will it cause lighting difference in the central seam line?

I hope using this way to save some texture size and get the same result with high resolution texures(although i know it will be a bit repeating in the mirrored side)

 

If I understand things right object space normals can't have any overlapping on the UV map.

[barjack]

 

 

snip

 

Thank you for reminding this.Using z-brush to make high-poly model and bake into object space-normal map will be working in skyrim without trouble,right?that's why i keep my topology quad at moment.

Here is something I want to try with object-space normal map,have you ever been tried to bake mirrored mesh UV into skyrim's object-space normal map? Will it cause lighting difference in the central seam line?

I hope using this way to save some texture size and get the same result with high resolution texures(although i know it will be a bit repeating in the mirrored side)

 

If I understand things right object space normals can't have any overlapping on the UV map.

 

 

How about enforcing engine to use tangent space normal maps in the models you want to do this trick.

I know skyrim also support tangent space normal,,like the dungeon's walls,those static meshes use tangent space  ones.

hmmm,,if I remember it right,,  naming texutre as

xxxxx_n.dds =  object space,,,

xxxx_nm.dds = tangent space...

not sure~

 

 

[barjack]

Arr,,i found the file naming guide in the japenese site.

it's reversed.

xxx_n.dds  = tangent space normal map

xxx_msn.dds =object space (model space normal)

xxx_s.dds = specular

xxx_g.dds = glossiness

xxx_p.dds = bump

xxx_e.dds = reflection

xxx_em.dds = environment

xxx_sk/s.dds = sss

 

[barjack]

Update~

Current poly count : about 4800 triangles,

optimized some lines in the body area,,

Somebody please do a simple test for me,,choose any mesh in your data.and modify it's normal map's name from

xxx_msn.dds to  xxx_n in nifskope and texture folder,and see if the Skyrim's engine use tangent space normal to replace object space ~

plz let me know the result.

REMEMBER to BACK UP your original files first~

I'll test myself later, .TY~

 

Edit: it's not working,,at least in my pc .The engine still use object space normal even i renamed the textures both in nif/texture folder.There should be some kind of flag value determine it's object space or tangent space.

[Vioxsis]

 

 

Its an option in shader flag 1, un-tick for tangent.

 

And you can name a texture what ever you want it has no bearing on anything. 

 

The only exception would be the body/armour meshes them selves with _0 and _1.  

[barjack]

Thank you for telling me this,that's great,then I will try mirrored texturing UV assignment.

_0/_1,,they are used for body morph as thin/fat,,right?

[Vioxsis]

Yes _0, _1 is for the weight slider morphs. 

 

And i'm not sure if skyrim has the shader support for mirrored UVs with object space normals.

So looking forward to seeing the outcome. 

[barjack]

Yes _0, _1 is for the weight slider morphs. 

 

And i'm not sure if skyrim has the shader support for mirrored UVs with object space normals.

So looking forward to seeing the outcome. 

 

Before spending my time in tedious UV assignment.I want to make sure it will work first.

Here is a simple test for the CBBE body/texture,they're converted from object space to tangent space,UV is mirrored too.From my testing result normal map is seamless,but shader is a bit darker than vanilla,I suppose the rendering engine still use wall/static meshes' shader on it.(I don't install ENB and other graphic mod yet,just vanilla game atm)

It should be fixed by other adjustments in nifskope's shader flag.You can try it now,just d/l the original CBBE,and replace it's femalebody_0.nif,femalebody_1.nif,femalebody_1.msn.dds with the package i uploaded below,you will see the result,If you have ENB installed,,plz try it for me,thx~

tangentspace_sample.7z

[Vioxsis]

I had a look at the meshes in game and they did not show the diffuse properly, the right side was stretched.

So i opened it up in max and looked at its UVs and they was not mirrored, so i edited the mesh to properly mirror them.

I made 2 versions, one that overlaps the other is off set.

 

Both handled the seam where they meet very well which was a surprise especially for the overlap test (Fallout NV shows errors if you do this)

 

But light is not calculated properly, so you have highlights and shadows where there not meant to be or none where they are supposed to be.

 

 

So to sum up no it doesn't look like skyrim can do mirrored object space normals.

 

http://www.mediafire.com/download/41at4twesa4s1dp/Mirror%20Tests.7z