Should Dragonborn in Distress be split into a Defeat mod and an Addiction mod?

[Code Serpent]

I've been coming up for more ideas for the two main mechanics of Dragonborn in Distress: Defeat and Addiction. For Defeat, more punishments, possible follower imprisonment, player slavery, and 'escape rooms' are all ideas I have on the table. For Addiction, additional addictions, possibly NPC and Follower addiction, brothels and skooma dens, and 'breaking-point' transformations of the player. These features are explained in a bit more detail in this comment I made some months ago, that is still mostly in-line with what I want to do with the mod.

 

The issue is, these new features don't really complement eachother as much as the simple defeat and simple addictions do. Also, I'm worried that the mod will become harder to understand for new users if it adds too many different mechanics, to the point where the intent of the mod isn't focused. Because of that, I'm considering splitting Dragonborn in Distress into two mods, with Dragonborn In Distress remaining mostly a defeat mod, with the addictions moved to a seperate mod. There is also the issue of adding landscape changes to a mostly mechanics-driven mod, as that increases the chance of compatibility issues. So, I am also considering moving escape rooms and dens into their own separate mods as well.

 

Keep in mind, I will still be able to link the two mods easily enough, so there won't be any loss of features if they are split. Let me know what you think in the poll above.

[Zaflis]

Defeat and addiction are both optional features that are by default both disabled on start, therefore i don't see why they should be separated.

 

Dens and escape rooms probably should be in same mod regardless of if it's DiD or new.

 

It's possible that big ESP mods are harder to maintain, so if it's easier for you to have them separate that's good.

[Corsayr]

I voted yes on separation of addiction and defeat, mostly because I don't really know how I feel about the addiction stuff... But as long as they are easy to disable via MCM I feel like whatever is most practical from a developer stand point... Also there maybe some benefit to them being combined with people actually trying them and liking the feature...

 

So I am of a couple of different minds on the subject.

 

Is there a tangible benefit to separation?  

[Code Serpent]

1 hour ago, Zaflis said:

i don't see why they should be separated.

15 minutes ago, Corsayr said:

Is there a tangible benefit to separation?  

I suppose the main reason for separation would be to have the two mods be more 'focused', and more easily defined and searchable. I have had some comments expressing concern about 'mod-bloat', where they think my mod would fill up with random features that aren't well documented and aren't known about by mod users. I don't think this is a major concern for my mods, as I try to talk about all the features in the description, but with these two major mechanics that description gets extremely long, and every mod maker knows users usually skim the first few paragraphs at best. So two mods, with one starting with "This is a reload alternative/defeat mod" and "This is an addiction mod", makes it clearer to understand than "This is a downward spiral mod started by defeat and perpetuated by addiction". At least, that's what I've inferred from the comments on my mod.

 

Another, less relevant reason: I've considered rebuilding the plugin so it doesn't depend on SexLab as a master, but through soft-dependencies, so the mod could be easily used by the non-adult modding community. (Please don't crucify me for suggesting this) My reason for this, is that I genuinely believe I'm developing the best reload alternative for both sides of the modding community. At the moment, sex is just used as a punishment, but other punishments could (and will) be implemented that don't depend on adult mods. The main meat of the defeat system is the AI behavior and player tracking that makes escape difficult and engaging. (At least, that's what I'm trying to do with those systems.) This isn't the case for mods like SD+ and SexLab Defeat, where sex and slavery are the main courses between cool down time spent in a cage. (Might be oversimplifying there, haven't used either mods in a while) Regardless, I doubt either are at all interested in making their mods more palatable to the rest of community. Death Alternative is the only complex defeat mod on the Nexus, all the rest seem to be versions of MMO mechanics, and DA was one of the most frustrating and unstable mods I've dealt with. (Again, haven't used it in a while, don't know what it's like now)

 

So, rebuilding the plugin is on the table. (It won't be that difficult, as the vast majority of the mod is in the script files) And so, reallocating addiction to its own mod could go along with that.

[Guest AthenaESIV]

I like some of the addiction aspects of DbiD, and I am interested to see what direction they go (possibly in relation to mods like Skooma Whore and Milk Addict especially). But some of the addictions seem to accentuate things in NSFW Skyrim that I don't like too much (like the boring no action sandbox gameplay of SD+ [to be clear... I think that SD+ could be my favorite NSFW mod with some changes and I love all the work BlueFrog does, but as is SD+ just feels too... directionless and empty?] and DD mods...)

 

I really like the defeat aspects of DbiD... I wish it was made to be more complimentary to Defeat though as to being opposed to it (maybe make it so Distress only activates on Defeat checks that do not activate Defeat)... But I remember when this mod and Fall of the Dragonborn from Skylover came out I had high hopes for them being very complimentary mods that made weak / vulnerable Dragonborn gameplay much more interesting.

 

Still look forward to see what Distress might become, and Skylover is currently completely reworking Fall of Dragonborn to focus on mind break and humilation... So these mods still might be what I was hoping for some day \o/

 

Splitting the addiction and defeat aspects of Distress into 2 mods seems natural though, and maybe will allow each to be more focused on what they want to do... However - I can use Sexlab Survival as an example of a mod that does tons of different things extremely well, so maybe splitting them up isn't necessary? I dunno...

[Corsayr]

2 hours ago, Code Serpent said:

so the mod could be easily used by the non-adult modding community. (Please don't crucify me for suggesting this)

Spoiler

 

[DonQuiWho]

I'm ambivalent about a split. 

 

Given the present opportunity to disable most mod aspects, I'd much rather you did what was easiest for you and maintained your enthusiasm.  Most of us forget that this has not had nearly the same opportunity as 'Defeat' to mature as a mod and also have a large body of users build up the experience required to set it up as they want as well as learn its eccentricities and how to deal with them

 

However, if you did see fit to separate addiction and defeat, the best bit about DiD combat defeat is the escape challenge.  I think I said it in your first survey but the things I would hope to see enhanced might be:

 

1 If you want this to be an alternative to Defeat's player / NPC as victim options, it needs to be as comprehensive in its handling of the short term outcomes of defeat for the player, their followers and other NPCs, by all possible forms of enemy (or as many as you can manage).  Defeat still is top of the pile on those on LL, I'm afraid ?

 

2 Your confinement, escape and related punishment options challenge, and related punishment for failure, is by far the best aspect of DiD's combat defeat capabilities.  It makes for a real challenge, over and above some mindless hashing, bashing and slashing.  If those could be set up as standalone within your own version of a solely 'combat defeat' mod, good, but even better would be their being also able to be used as a hand off from existing mods such as Defeat, DCL, or even SS, and doing that would be to create the jewel in your crown.  None of thee other mods really have post defeat scenarios with that sort of (credible!) degree of risk and adventure

 

3 Follower handling on confinement would be much improved if they were just parked somewhere else - ideally some place that requires their being then freed/rescued. ?  Granted that might be more difficult to include in any hand off from other mods, but it might make the core mod simpler, and the outcomes more fun too

 

I guess that addictions don't do too much for me as I can't think of anything constructive to add ... ?

 

Hope that's of help

 

 

 

[Lupine00]

The motivation to split is to design a defeat mod that is extensible, and isn't bound to the limited outcomes that DiD implements out of the box.

 

There's some information how this might be done in the post in my blog called The Lupine Manifesto.

 

Essentially, the only thing the defeat mod needs to do is decide that a defeat has occurred, identify who is involved, and possibly calm the combat.

 

On defeat, the defeat mod checks an ordered list of handlers to see which one will make the highest "bid" to handle the defeat. Whichever returns the highest priority is then left to do everything else, though it can leverage some library code in the defeat mod, like the calm code.

 

The handler doesn't need to worry about identifying participants, but it does need to understand that the defeat mod may add new participants after the defeat has started.

 

The handler then provides the defeat outcome.

 

This allows the defeat mod author to provide a bundle of build-in basic handlers (if they wish) and any other mod can easily add a handler without a hard dependency.

 

So, when you install DFC, or SLS, or ToH, that mod could potentially handle defeats in a thematically appropriate way.

DFC could cause the Devious Follower to run off and abandon you to your fate, then provide a slavery outcome based on willpower.

SLS could allow you to enter into a troll cum devouring scene.

ToH could give you a new follower who expects novel debasements from you.

And modders could create their own packs of outcomes (if they want) as with EsTurk's pack of DCL slavery extensions.

DiD itself would suffer no great disadvantage, and could separate fixes to the defeat mod to fixes to the main defeat experience.

 

 

It seems appropriate for an addiction mod to contain the dens for the addictive behaviors it supports. That is part of providing addiction.

You could go further. A skooma addiction mod could add new kinds of skooma too, particularly skooma's that carry less direct drawback in taking them, and where the problem is the addiction, not the skooma.

Skooma Whore's skoomas are punishments in themselves, so there is no motivation to use skooma and become addicted unless it's forced on you.

[Darkwing241]

There are really only 3 defeat mods out there that I know of. 

 

Defeat: hasn't been touched in years, and it's supplement for devious devices also hasn't kept up with the newer DD's.

 

DCL: Was always meant to be minimal and is hamstrung by being attached to DCL.  Kimmy works on a lot of different stuff and I don't think shes touched the defeat part of DCL in years.  It's also crippled by Kimmy's (legitimate) lack of interest in supporting kinks that she doesn't like. It's very "not too rough" and "not too monstrous." 

 

DiD: seems like it's venturing into the same trap as DCL. All the addiction stuff is cool, but it is a specific kink.  I feel like it's kind of turning into another defeat systems that only supports a very specific type of game play.