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Chaurus Reproduction / Breeding Events


Seijin8

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Moving beyond eggs-in/eggs-out

 

That chaurus are ovipositors is beyond question at this point.  They are dumping eggs (and maybe other things) into the breeder, and then their part is (mostly) done.

 

The chaurus may decide to protect the breeder, or may not care.  There is an open question of whether a living breeder is useful after the fact.  It is possible that the chaurus simply kills the breeder after impregnation.  Every egg pile we see in the game may have originally resided in a breeder's body, which has since decomposed.

 

For gameplay purposes, we will assume that this isn't the case and that living breeders are more desirable/useful to the hive.

 

If a living breeder is useful for hatching the eggs, it doesn't necessarily follow that the eggs are expelled prior to hatching (as Estrus Chaurus does).  Several possibilities exist, and it should be noted that many of them may be usable; they needn't be exclusive and different strategies may emerge from different hives or environmental conditions or simple preference:

 

1) Eggs in, smaller eggs out.  The breeder is used for partial incubation.

For sake of completeness, this is the current standard set by Estrus Chaurus.  Eggs go in, and smaller "parasite" eggs come out.  These may or may not hatch based on mod settings.  The eggs may become compressed in the act of oviposition, or may "bleed off" size under certain conditions as part of the maturation process, or may require compression in a warm body to catalyze.  The combination of body heat and some kind of nutrient exchange/parastitism is needed for the eggs to reach maturity.

 

This is very much an r-Selection strategy, and lots of hatchlings should result from this with individually low survival rates.  The typical EC-styled birthing produces around a dozen eggs, and in a r-selection scenario, only one or two would be expected to survive.

 

2) Eggs in, eggs out.  The breeder is used for partial incubation.

As #1, but the eggs being re-oviposited/birthed are the same size as the originals.  We should think of this as the minimum contribution of the breeder.  The breeder was merely a warm place to put the eggs, and had some nutrients to leech off.  In this situation, the breeder is no more useful than a mound of rotting meat.  The total number of eggs that could be inserted this way would be lower than in #1, and might be four or five on average.

 

(A variation of this may be that the eggs hatch shortly after being expelled.  The results then may be larva or hatchlings.)

 

3) Eggs in, larva out.  The breeder is used for partial incubation and live birth.

The first significant deviation from the current norm, the eggs would hatch (or dissolve away) within the host before being expelled.  This may be a single birthing event, or individuals migrating away while the host is sleeping.  The exact mechanisms for this would be far more complicated, as there would need to be an in-built survival mechanic to protect the larva.

  • A) Host is coerced/controlled into protecting the offspring.
  • B1) The larva induce sleep/paralysis in the host prior to exiting, or exit only when the host is sleeping and then scurry away.
  • B2) The chaurus "parent" subdues the host again prior to inducing birth.  (Forcibly or via intoxicant.)
  • C) Host is secured (cocoon or similar immobilizing condition) for the duration of the incubation.  There isn't really a reason to release the breeder after this.  They could be used as food or simply be re-impregnated.  This offers no useful gameplay, so I would not use this in Chaurus Life in most instances, though it may exist as an option in some hives or situations.
  • D) The larva eat their way out of the host.  This could be used with gameplay if there is a way to coerce them out without killing the host.

 

4) Eggs in, hatchlings out.  The breeder is used for complete incubation and early maturation before live birth.

A progression from #3, in this case the offspring are fully realized chaurus hatchlings, and while small, they are otherwise ready to go.  This has all the same subtypes as #3, though I'd tend toward the C and D variations in this case.  The emerging chaurus are likely not fully chitin-covered yet, but may have aggressive tendencies anyway.

 

5) Larva in, hatchlings out.  The breeder is used for late-term incubation and early maturation before live birth.

This would coexist with another method.  In this instance, larva are forced in and spend some time inside the breeder maturing into a later form.  It is possible that this would represent a second layer of the full reproductive process.  As an example, the breeder may use method #3, and then after a short time outside the breeder, a chaurus (likely a flyer) will re-insert the larva into the breeder to continue maturation.

 

This begs the question of why this would be a two-part process, but several possibilities exist:

  • Maybe the larva need to acclimate to their expected environment, picking up the equivalent of antibodies in the short foray out prior to needing continuing protection/incubation.
  • Maybe the entire process is expected to "use up" more than one breeder, and a live breeder is needed for both aspects.  As a matter of course, the hive may shuttle the larva into another breeder to preserve the life of the first, or because the first is already expected to be dead.
  • An alternative to the above, "higher ranked" breeders may be used for the first part, and "lower-ranked/disposable" breeders may be used for the more dangerous second stage of growth.  In this case, the parasitic nature of the breeding process would be expected to eventually wear out the breeder.
  • The second stage may only be used when the hive is on the move, or needs to "pack up" and change location.  It would exist as an option, but would not normally be used.


Making sense of the options

 

With all of these laid out (and I'm sure there are more options I'm not considering), there needs to be a "standard" set of behaviors to build from.  Once there is a standard, then the conditions that cause other options to arise can be worked with.

 

Personally, I don't think eggs-in/eggs-out makes sense unless those eggs are just about ready to hatch.  In this case, the outer layer of material on the eggs may be cast off, causing the "birth event".  Situations may make the birth impossible, or impractical, and the result is that the eggs hatch inside and result in a live birth (which could be dangerous for the host or the hatchlings -- they may be fragile enough that the act of pushing them out mammal-style kills them).

 

It is possible that a breeder has some control over the process and may opt to do things a certain way.  If so, this only makes sense if the breeder is partially controlled (influenced/intoxicated to avoid making harmful decisions) or is shepherded by a chaurus (not necessarily the parent; this could be a hive duty relegated to lower caste workers or fledgling flyers).

 

There may be internal hive factors that dictate the best practice.  For instance, a small hive that faces a lot of enemies may prefer the offspring to be as close to combat-ready as possible, forcing the breeder to maintain them until they are matured hatchlings.  This would most likely be dangerous or fatal for the breeder.

 

On the other hand, a hive with a stable and strong local ecology and adequate warriors to protect the location may use their breeding resources more carefully and opt for egg or larva birthing.  Hives with this level of organization may keep a stable of breeders that are maintained as a resource.

 

(Alternately, a strong hive may not bother preserving breeders as they can launch raids to get more.)

 

Addendum: What is in the egg?

 

Something to consider is that the egg contents may also vary.  Given the color and structure, it is safe to assume that they have at east some kind of phosphorescent fluid/gel/suspension inside, probably as a nutrient.  Aside from this, we can assume that there may be one or more embryonic chaurus within.  An egg may bear multiple offspring, or may have none.  The offspring may be fully inert until fertilized, or may be active inside at all times, possibly fighting one another until only one remains.

 

(Another possibility is that the "egg" is actually a cocoon formed by immature larva for protection.)

 

Looking at the alchemical effects of chaurus eggs gives some insight into what exact materials these have, as well as the expected traits of hatchlings/larva.

  • Invisibility: Indicative of the larva/hatchling survival strategy.  They are not combative at first, but use active camouflage to survive.
  • Damage Magicka: This would be mind-affecting properties, likely the components used to coerce the host into caring for them.
  • Fortify Stamina: Basic nutrient suspension inside the egg.  Could also be the "meat" of the larva/hatchling.
  • Weakness to Poison: A component of the early poison spit and a compound to allow the mind-controlling intoxicants to better function -- effectively an immune-system inhibitor.

These effects seem very consistent with the model of hatchlings being more apt to escape/evade and use mind-control mechanisms.

 

Addendum: Where do the eggs come from?

 

For the purposes of the Chaurus Life mod, most eggs are produced by maturing Reapers and Tyrants.  In some cases, eggs can be created by workers, but these will typically be infertile.  The biochemical changes that make Reapers aggressive towards one another come hand-in-hand with the generation of fertile eggs.  When no breeder is available, these eggs will be cast off into the egg piles we are used to seeing.  From there, workers and fledgling flyers may then oviposition the piles and move them somewhere else.  The instinct to do this is likely based on ecological factors, and the workers will move the eggs to places where they can be cared for and nurtured until they can be placed into a breeder.

 

Note that Reapers will usually prefer actively breeding over dumping a pile, but that may not always be possible.

 

In the presence of a Tyrant, usually the only fertile eggs will be those of the Tyrant.  Depending on hive structure, the flyers may be used to discard unwanted (rival reaper) eggs, or may be actively used to infest them with parasites.  Tyrant reproductive behaviors have a variety of expressions.  In some cases, a champion will be permitted to breed as well, though this isn't universal.

 

(It should be noted that some larger tyrants will not use breeders themselves, and will always generate an egg pile for workers to then inseminate with.  This avoids the real probability of the Tyrant killing the breeding host, and also conveniently allows me to dodge animation scaling issues.)

 

Note that the size of eggs seen will typically always correspond the the chaurus using them.  However, this doesn't have to be the case (working on this now).  A chaurus worker could potentially force tyrant-sized eggs into a breeder (and some model scaling may allow this to be seen).

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On the breeding

 

options 4 and 5 make more sense

 

We could take a peek on what Alien(s) (film, games and comics) do and get from implanting: they are taking a certain amount of Dna and developing an offspring suitable for the environment and enemies (example aliens vs predator the predalien hybrid).

So Chaurus could get some racial bonuses by choosing a certain breeder.

 

A similar thing can be observed real hives where a certain type of food and enzyme/hormones will produce a different kind of end stage insect instead of the basic drone.

So use breeders to produce certain types of Chauruses ?

 

Cheers

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10 hours ago, sshar22 said:

So Chaurus could get some racial bonuses by choosing a certain breeder.

While that is a cool idea, it leads to a lot of questions: if more powerful chaurus are the goal, then why not be using trolls or bears as breeders?

 

The falmer are not doing this at all.  They must have a reason for it.  Maybe man/mer based breeders are more reliable or the resulting chaurus are easier to domesticate?

 

I'm thinking I will leave this out, just because it is a lot of work and makes things more complex by far.  Temporarily closing the door on that (but not locking it).

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Well you could ask to use the framework from Simple Slavery (i think thats the mod that has the framework im thinking of anyways) to check the race of the breeder if you do want to follow that road. And for the reasoning, well it could be that Trolls and Bears are harder to wrangle down into the tunnels, or the poison doesn't work on them. Very few if any of the hives actually have a bear or a troll just lying there. A reason for breeding sentients could be that they have latent magic energy in them (magicka) that could be a hatching agent to the eggs/cacoons. Altmer females would be prime targets for the falmer to capture since they are the most powerful generally in terms of magic and have more space for eggs with the womb, but since there are so few of them in Skyrim, and even fewer travelling, the falmer make due with other sentients. If you go down the route of magicka however, the Hagravens would likely have to be allowed as breeders unless there is something blocking them from being bred or transported,

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Just a quick thought. What if live breeders were needed for evolution to the higher castes of the hive. All Chaurus eggs are fertilized (all chaurus are hermaphroditic) however those that are lain outside a temp of 97° or above always result in the life cycle ending at just a worker. The introduction of the warm enviornment, mixed with the host hormones is the catalist for the upper castes. This however would logically result in live hosts being protected by the upper castes and treated as a queen. Eventually after numerous broods the broodqueen's own body would evolve to allow her to expidite this process by creating and laying her own eggs. Each new abducted surface female (probably by a tyrant, as every queen needs a king) becomes the queen of a new hive. Again just a thought. 

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7 minutes ago, Lunarscribe said:

Just a quick thought. What if live breeders were needed for evolution to the higher castes of the hive. All Chaurus eggs are fertilized (all chaurus are hermaphroditic) however those that are lain outside a temp of 97° or above always result in the life cycle ending at just a worker. The introduction of the warm enviornment, mixed with the host hormones is the catalist for the upper castes. This however would logically result in live hosts being protected by the upper castes and treated as a queen. Eventually after numerous broods the broodqueen's own body would evolve to allow her to expidite this process by creating and laying her own eggs. Each new abducted surface female (probably by a tyrant, as every queen needs a king) becomes the queen of a new hive. Again just a thought. 

Thanks for the thoughts.

 

Body temp might be part of the catalyst, but if it were the only one, then we'd see chaurus egg piles placed next to dwemer steam pipes or falmer cooking fires, and that isn't the case.  I'd be less inclined to say "hormones" as biology in Elder Scrolls seems to work quite differently than in reality.  Less problematic to infer "magicka transfer" or something like that.

 

Still, the idea that post-Reaper evolutions would be locked off without proper breeders is definitely worth considering.

 

I'm generally against the "queen" = "breeder" notion, just because it hamstrings a lot of gameplay options.  That might be cool for some people wanting to roleplay some stories, but is detrimental to most others.  Personally, I'm more likely to make "breeder" = "expendable", forcing the player character to do exceptional/special things to be recognized as anything but a disposable eggsac.  As a psychological function, abducting someone to then imbue them with power (control of a hive or whatever) seems a fairly self-destructive methodology.  Most people don't like being victimized, and that isn't likely to change just because there are perks associated with it well after the fact.  Some breeders may ultimately become cool with it, but I have to think that is the minority, and with an already potentially low survival rate, the "happy to be queen" folks would be a rarity.

 

(As an aside, "body evolution" to be a better breeder is something the mod will handle, and we have three versions of it mentioned elsewhere.  None of that is anywhere near being created yet, but the ideas are well in place in the main mod thread.)

 

Sorry to be shooting some of these down, I do appreciate you adding your perspective.  At this stage of the mod planning, we're getting into the weeds pretty heavily and balancing gameplay options and what can reasonably be done with the engine is getting harder to do.

 

Thanks again for your comments.

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I think Magicka Transfer is a good method to choose for the eggs since the Chaurus clearly can't channel it outward (unless their spit is a form of magic like a firebolt), and since all sentients have at least a small amount of magic in them, this could eliminate the reason why the falmer don't use creatures instead of sentients. Before Dawnguard DLC, in lore Soul Gems might have been a way to circumvent using live men or mer as they have always channelled magic to recharge enchanted gear, but after with the introduction of the Soul Cairn, they aren't a lore friendly way of providing magicka for the eggs. But another thing that could be addressed is that the breeders aren't necessary at all, they don't provide any actual catalyst. They are just good places to store eggs in the event that the hive needs to move, or (this part is a bit of a stretch on their intelligence since we have nothing to suspect them of being intelligent) they are attempting to hide their eggs in victims so if the hive is destroyed by adventurers and the breeders are rescued, their offspring can still survive, maybe with a mind control element to stop the victim from immediately kill them (perhaps make the victims have a compulsion to hide them or paralyze/put them in a trance until the Chaurus is safely hidden in the walls of the village.)

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No Problem. I appriciate anyone that adds anything to the game. Besides the mod is your's and should reflect your vision! If I don't like it, well, I should get off my lazy ass learn to mod and create my own work. :P Anyway thanks for taking the time to read and respond. Good luck! Can't wait to see the finished product.

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A lot of this becomes easier if we consider mind/body control parasitism.  For example, the cordyceps fungus both grows inside insects and mind controls them to move to a location where they have a higher chance of spreading.  

 

Similarly the eggs could manipulate the host's body into providing nutrients, in the same way that a regular pregnancies cause the development of a placenta and milk production.  

 

This is compatible with 1 & 2, and provides more rationale than incubator/warm corpse.  It also explains why the hosts begin milk production. 

 

So the host provides protection and nutrients.  For 1, the eggs are larger going in because they contain nutrients to hold it over until the host's reproductive system can be hijacked, as well as the machinery to do the hijacking.

 

On the mind control side, this provides good reasons for why breeders will stay around the hive while they contain eggs, and opens up gameplay options like the queen idea above.

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THE SCIENCE

 

In regards to breeding Option 2 seem most logical to me. It seems that in the absence of a queen to impregnate & mature the eggs inside her until they are large enough to be dumped some wheres. A host can be substituted. This can be seen IRL with various other species of hive insects. When a queen dies, or goes missing (Such as when a queen bee leaves the hive for a mating flight; to mix genetic DNA with other hives)  a substitute worker bee becomes the new queen, and begins laying eggs (Clones of itself), until a larva is fed royal jelly mutates into into a true queen) In my mind, option 2 would be the most likely for a number of reasons. We know that all chaurus can oviposit, the eggs put inside the host are clones of themselves, and the Queen, or Host provides the other side of genetic material to create a new genetically diverse chaurus. Maturing them insider her until safe to survive in the outside world. With that being said there is no reason to believe that a chaurus drone excretes semen, that the slimy fluid they impart to the host is rather a lubricant, sealant, numbing agent, and fluid buffer to protect eags from being damaged inside the womb.... or all three. Eggs are clones of the chaurus with soft semi-permeable membranes when they are oviposited, so they can both fit through the cervix without maiming the host, and so that the host's genetic material can be absorbed. Once mature the eggs become larger & fertilized, and are birthed. 

 

THE LOVE

Beyond why eggs in/out I noticed a great deal of chaurus animations involve "kissing" for lack of a better word. In thinking about it for a longer period of time & writing/reviewing apropos descriptions of the event it seems that most writers choose to describe this as either

 

A: Mechanical leverage. Similar to when a cat, bites the nape of it's mates neck while breeding so it cannot escape. Which seems entirely plausible, but not particular interesting to me.

B: The transfer of fluids for various reasons, including hallucinogenic chemicals used to incapacitate the victim, or chemical alteration to the body's mouth cavity improving elasticity. Both of which seem unlikely. The chaurus is a powerful creature capable of physically dominating it's prey via pincers  & multiple grappling limbs. (mentioned above) and improving elasticity for mouth breeding seems a bit illogical, since a chaurus wouldn't want to inject it's offspring into a predator's stomach lest be be digested.

-- On a side note, it's plausible that after breeding the host, the leftover biomatter can be cannibalized, or fed to the host as a way recycling lost nutrients. This would be the only logical reason for a BJ  cunnilingus animation, but only makes sense scientifically if they have already bred the host to capacity. (Integration with R&D or Ineed)?

 

My point is, as beekeeper... it seems more likely that the the chaurus, are in fact feeding the host, perhaps a variant of a royal jelly, or something similar to honey/nectar. (It could induce euphoria, boost metabolism/growth, or elasticity as a side effect) But seems likely that it would be a nutritional supplement, or the process of creating a new chaurus queen.  If the player is to be a host for their young, and carry them to term; she would likely need to be cared for, and protected by the hive. Similar to how worker bee's feed the queen, and larva mouth to mouth.


THE MINIGAME

It seems plausible that the lore or story of a Chaurus Life in which the player kills the queen, would need to assume the position of the queen. Including the ingestion of royal jelly, and traveling outside the it's own hive to other hives, to promote genetic variation inside both hives. Queens however compete, and their are dangers, this could include the queen needing to battle other queens for dominance, while avoiding parasitic infestation from chaurus hunters who guard her on her "mating flight". Once a queen has been defeated the player will need to track them back to their hive (Insert gameplay mechanic here for tracking) and breed with the tyrant's & reapers there, slowly assuming control over the competing hive.

The larva that hunters "inject", might be a form of biolgical warfare against competing hives, or a way of seeding their own genetic strain into a competing hive. For example say that a chaurus lava is a latent queen, this queen would then destroy other eggs inside the breeders womb, and gestate as a normal chaurus until it slowly works it's way up the food chain inside the enemy hive, and is strong enough to challenge the existing queen for dominance and then is able to proliferate it's own genetic code within an enemies hive.

 

THE NUANCE

 

Most of the time people hear the word Queen, and think that the queen is in charge... in the case of bee's that couldn't be further from the truth, queen's are slaves to the hive... the workers, herd them, protect them, and feed them. They are valuable resource, but they don't control anything, they are just a means to an end, until another queen is born, at which point both queens fight to the death. The stronger remains queen continuing to pass on it's genetic material until the next queen comes to challenge.

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All excellent points.  One thing I've been considering (based on discussions from way back) is that the larva may be "incomplete" chaurus: with the major parts of chaurus physiology all being colony organisms, the larva lack a critical component that forms the carapace.  In that case, they are preserved maybe only as food or an expendable resource.

 

Another consideration is that there may be no single template for how chaurus hives behave and that the Tyrants all have their own ideas/programs for overall hive survival.  With a species that faces major environmental changes and threats, this diversity of strategy may itself be an effective strategy (basically r-Selection on a colony/hive scale).  This offers some interesting gameplay options as a Reaper may show tendencies towards certain behaviors that act as a clue to what kind of Tyrant they would make -- allowing the player to sway the results.

 

(An advantage to this approach is that many different play-styles might evolve, all of which are "valid".  There needn't be only one mechanism for this.  Differing ant colonies may be slightly different species and have different attitudes/behaviors.  Nothing says chaurus aren't the same.)

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Just an idea, but the Charus could release a pheromone that acts on the female mind while they are asleep and compels the sleeping body to seek out the source.  The victims of the pheromone would basically be put into a trance as they try to find the charus who is emitting the pheromones.  

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8 hours ago, ElsissSurana said:

Just an idea, but the Charus could release a pheromone that acts on the female mind while they are asleep and compels the sleeping body to seek out the source.  The victims of the pheromone would basically be put into a trance as they try to find the charus who is emitting the pheromones.  

Mind control offers no gameplay.

6 hours ago, drgnbzfan84 said:

interesting i always thought they should change into hybrid chaurus over time

I assume by "they", you mean the breeders.  While something like this may be used, I'm honestly bored with the entire concept.

 

Not to be insulting to you gents, as you're just offering ideas, but this stuff has been tossed back and forth for a while now in the main mod thread and elsewhere.  Every idea that comes down the pipe is the same as the last several "ideas".  They aren't ideas though, they're tropes.  And to my dismay, the same tropes are present in erotica and manga and hentai from everywhere.  It seems like Mind control, oviposition and transformation are the three pillars of this whole thing, and I'm just bored with it.

 

With chaurus, Bethesda left us nothing to go on, and most of the themes that have been tossed about are variations on the same things.  As I've looked into it over the last year, there just isn't much original (or particularly interesting) happening here.  That is on me, too.  I don't have a magical solution for it, other than to throw away everything that would normally be associated with it and go a completely different direction.

 

Haven't decided yet if it is worth the effort.

 

Sorry if this comes off as harsh.  No disrespect to the both of you.  Just been on my mind a lot as I look at the enormity of work involved in a set of concepts I'm not personally all that invested in.

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So a combination of 3 and 5 possibly is what I am thinking.
For oviposition the possibility exists that the piles of eggs we see are in fact unfertilized, in order to fertilize the eggs a host is needed. The females lay the eggs inside a host if available but constantly produce eggs and thus piles of unfertilized eggs are created, when layed a substance that hardens at room temperature is excreted as well, so a live host is needed to keep the eggs warm. After a female lays her eggs into the womb of a host a male will fertilize them. Once hatched to a larvae they are moved to location where they can receive nutrients, a rotting corpse may be viable however I think that would be more suitable for hatchlings. If the larvae are placed inside the host's rectum they would be able to feed on the host's feces, the hosts would then need to be kept on a suitable diet not just to keep them alive. After the larva are moved the host would be then available for more eggs to be oviposited and fertilized. At some point the larvae could cannibalize such as consuming from other unfertilized and fertilized eggs while in the womb.

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