Caesar's Legion - How Do You See Them?

[ChancellorKremlin]

Caesar's Legion - A Few Thoughts

 

 

 

OK, this is a topic I've been wanting to explore for a while now, and I thought this would be an appropriate venue to explore ideas behind how Caesar's Legion has been implemented/thought out in the Fallout world.

 

It has stemmed from a recent discussion Loogie and I have had, although this is something I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about. In any case, I very much look forward to hearing everyone's views on the topic of how Caesar's Legion should be represented in game. It's only fair then, that as the original poster, I start with my own thoughts.

 

I have quite a few problems with Caesar's Legion as represented ingame in Fallout New Vegas, and I am unsure if my problems stem just from the way Obsidian have decided to represent them (not counting issues which have not been explored in the game, but which could plausibly still exist in the lore, ie outside of the game) or if my problems stem from the lore itself. Here are a few issues.

 

 

- Caesar has stated that Caesar's Legion (CL forthwith) is mainly a 'mobile' entity that possesses no true 'capital' (other than Flagstaff) and compares it with Rome's ancient struggle with Carthage, and posits that taking New Vegas (Carthage) from the NCR (the Carthaginians) would truly turn it into an army, moving it away from it's Republican roots, to a formidable, sedentary 'nation' with a proper capital and territory. I find this troublesome because, how the hell has the Legion managed to achieve so much, control all east of the Colorado, without having 'proper' cities, bases of operations, supply depots, supply lines, indeed, an entire population behind it to support it, which would require large areas of settlement? We're not talking about the Great Khans/Mongols here, we're talking about a faction that has conquered large amounts of settled territory, large cities, and that somehow doesn't have a capital city/sedentary culture. Which is strange, and illogical.

 

- J.E Sawyer, one of the original Fallout developers, and heavily involved with Van Buren (which as far as I'm concerned, is the Bible Of Canonicity) has stated that even though CL has a very shortsighted, chauvinistic and downright misogynistic view of women (there is not family outside of the legion) that this is indeed how the Legion is meant to be portrayed. So no family, now 'wives' - outside of communal wives, like the Spartan's for example - and that women serve as a support core at best, ie slaves, healers, breeders, midwives and so forth. Personally, I have a *very* hard time seeing how such a society would function. No family, everything regimented, no children. I mean, it worked for the Spartans, and I suppose it could work for CL, but even then, men still had 'wives' which they took as 'favourites', they had individual concubines and confidants (companions as they were called) and so forth, in short, they had the same sort of intimate relationships demanded of marriage. Strangely, in places, FNV hints at the marriage system existing in CL - ie the courier telling Melissa the best she could become would be a Legion wife, and Cass mumbling she doesn't want to be a Legion wife - although the meaning behind this is hidden, they could either be 'individual' wives or 'collective' wives 'of the legion' as opposed to a member, although saying 'Centurio's wife' implies an individual. So I am torn as to how to see women in the Legion.

 

It is possible they may all be slaves, but some may be above others, ie still a slave to the 'legion' overall, but attached to an individual. Family would still not exist in the strictest sense because any children born would be immediately be given away for training. Personally, I favour this view over that that all women are 'equal' in the legion, in regards that they are slaves and that is it. I think some sort of hiearchy must exist, and that some women 'slaves' must inherently rank higher than others, to experience some of the benefits, even if still as 'slaves' to the legion, if not more in name only than in real practice.

 

 

- My other issue is Caesar's view on technology. He sees it that technology has made humanity weaker as a whole, and points out that even in places where technology would make a massive difference (stimpacks, power armour, advanced weaponry) and so forth, he choses not to use it, so as to not make his men weaker, but instead uses their own strength (and humanity's) to overcome obstacles. (This is revelead through talking to Caesar, Siri, and others) Fair enough, but then again, there are a number of things that violate this concept. Legionaries are frequently seen with high-tech weaponry, in the form of sledge hammers, power fists, assault carbines, and other items. Some of them even wear metal armour. I know the recycled football gear is an original Van Buren concept (so it's lore) but it's almost impossible to reconcile with a realistic approach to combat, ie it's impossible to reconcile with verisimilitude. One thing I liked about the mod Caesar's New Regime was that it replaced the football gear for proper metal armour (and admittedly went over the top with it) but at least it made more sense; metal provides better protection from both ballistics and melee combat, a type of combat the legion is very prone to, using mostly hand to hand weapons.

 

 

Taking into consideration that the Legion has probably taken a fair few vaults/military bases/depots/etc in their own territory of Arizona and so forth, it would only make sense they would come across thing like power armour, and other utensils which could give them a significant edge in battle. Yet, nowhere do we see even salvaged power armour, let alone pure metal armour, except for centurions, and the Gaius Magnus (armour of the 87th tribe)

 

My problem is that in this way, the legion look more silly than anything. A single bullet can stop any one of them (barring the ones wearing metal armour) and it becomes harder to believe they could have won everything they have, using only football gear and *mostly* hand to hand weapons, when an NCR trooper with a firearm could take them down with a burst from his/her rifle. This is a problem I have more with the lore than with the way Obsidian portrayed them (having closely followed the lore, kudos to them) - I can't see any dictator/country/people throwing away obvious military advantages/technological superiority in the name of ideology. Historically, they say they will, but when push comes to shove, we all do all we can to win, through any means possible.

 

 

Primarily, those are my two mains problems with CL. I have other issues, but they are comparatively minor compared to these two, which are both societal and military problems, and two problems I think would be a major issue for such an organisation in real life. To sum things up, here is how I see the legion: (I will expand on this later)

 

 

 

******

 

 

How I See The Legion, Ideally...

 

 

Military

 

Militarily, I would separate them into three 'corps' so to speak, mirroring ancient republican armies both in name and in style of fighting, that is, the Hastati, the Principes, and the Triarii/Praetorians.

 

- Hastati:

 

In any attack, the first line would be made up of the 'Hastati', comprising about 35% of the legion. Young, inexperienced, conscripted warriors (reconditioned slaves, tribal mergers, legion children come of age and what-not) whose sole purpose is to rush towards the enemy and break them down through sheer brute force and strength of numbers.

 

In this corp would be the recruits, the recruit decani, recruit centurios and so forth. They would be armed with melee weapons used for shock purposes (axes, throwing hatchets, spears, swords, power first and so forth) and armoured in combat armour (heavily customised to fit the legion 'outlook' off course) which, as far as I know, is the only armour in the ingame lore which has the capacity to moderately absorb bullet damage. They would need it in order to charge enemies. To offer them further protection, add to the realism of the game, and even tie the legion more with it's ancestral roots, I would also give them riot shields, which would obviously provide them with increased protection, but also made them look more 'legion' and increase their chances of survival.

 

- Principes

 

The second corp would be the principes, comprising approximately 45% of the legion. These are the men at the prime of their life, experienced, well seasoned soldiers, who have survived many tours of being Hastati. Being the second line, they do not need to be as heavily armoured as the fisrt, so I think using the armour of the 87th tribe as a base, they could wear this type of armour, and variants, which are made of metal and offer moderate protection for all forms of harm. They would be the 'soldiers' of the legion, fighting in much the same capacity as NCR trooepers do - as marksmen, infantrymen, light support infantry with machine guns, heavy weapons, sappers, etc. This would be the 'core' of the legion army, which sweeps in after the hastati have utterly demoralised the enemy. In here would be the legion veterans, prime legionaries, veteran centurios and exploratores.

 

- Triarii/Praetorians

 

The third corp, would be the Triarii, subdivided into the Triarii proper, and the Praetorians, comprising approximately approximately 20% of the Legion, or 10% each. They are the last line of offense/defence, their task is to smash through whatever the other two lines have not destroyed.

 

- Triarii

 

The Triarii are the old veterans, the really experienced members, those who have excelled physically and mentally, the true heroes of the Legion. After decades of service, Triarii members are rewarded with heavy duty armour, say Combat Armour MKII (legion modified of course) with a mix of melee heavy weapons and high powered rifles. In this way, both those with a predisposition for brute force and those with one for ranged weaponry benefit.

 

- Praetorians

 

The Praetorians in turn are the elite of this elite, the creme de la creme, the personal, hand-picked bodyguard of Caesar himself. This corps would be armoured in only the best - ie salvaged power armour (legion style) or even functioning power armour - this corps is smaller than the rest, so I think power armour isn't overkill here, because only very few legion members would wear it. It also illustrates just how powerful this small group can be, and it would be feasible because it is highly likely CL have come across suits in military bases, depots, vaults and other installations in the Colorado. These would be the most experienced members of the legion, the elite, the bodyguards of the great Caesar himself, hand picked and armed only with the latest weaponry, ie energy weapons, high powered rifles, thermic lances, protonic axes etc etc.

 

Militarily, I think this works because it still shows CL is not relying too heavily on technology, because 80% of their entire army is still only a 'medium' fighting force, moderately armed and armoured, counting more on their training and experience to survive than on their reliance on technology. In this CL, technology only really shows it's head when push comes to shove, or 'to fall back on the Triarii' as the ancient Romans called it, because if at any point the Triarii/Praetorians would have to be used, then that means the shit has really hit the fan, and everything goes. Plus, 20% is a really small number of the total fighting force, and they would only be used in missions that both the Hastati and Principes could not achieve alone, after all - those two are really the 'bread and butter' of the legion.

 

- Tactics

 

Tactically, I think this new Legion would operate in much the same way the current one does, with a few minor differences. First, the lines of offense. The first line would be comprised of the inexperienced Hastati, and would entail an overwhelming brutal assault by these men, hiding behind their riot shields and using hand to hand weaponry to utterly batter the enemy into submission. Following waves can take cover behind their shields, so they literally lead the way for the other waves, as they shoot from behind cover, at which point the Hastati charge ferociously into the fore.

 

The second wave would be the attack 'proper' after the Hastati have demoralised the enemy, and would consist of the actual soldier following up the original attack, and acting like soldiers, that is, taking cover, sniping, providing fire support, engaging in close quarter combat and clearing rooms, covering ground, etc. Anything the Hastati missed with their melee weapons, the Principes would follow up in the traditional military manner - with their long range rifles and weaponry.

 

Should the second wave fail, it then falls down to the Triarii, even better armoured and armed than both the Hastati and Principes, to finish the job. Half of them would follow up with a brutal assault of the enemy, which would be severely undermanned and under-strength from the first two waves, closing in with hand to hand weapons, while the second half follow up with covering fire, snipers, etc. It's basically a repetition of the first two waves, but made up of the elite.

 

Following this would be the Praetorians themselves. Here the Legion's reliance on technology would show, as in ideal situations, both the Triarii and Praetorians would never even be used. Charging into battle in powered/salvaged armour, with high tech weaponry and deadly close quarters melee weapons, nothing would be able to withstand a direct assault of Caesar's personal guard itself.

 

Accompanying each group would obviously be a Vexilarius, which would be a little more heavily armoured than the rest of his counterparts, signifying his importance and the need in combat to act as a rallying point, and as inspiration. It is every Legionary's duty to protect him, and shame should follow if they allow him to fall or their standard to be captured.

 

I think in this way, we have combat that actually makes sense from both a lore point of view and realistically, because each corp of the Legion compliments each other, and it would be easy to see why a mix of brute strength and melee fighting (the Hastati) when supported properly by a 'normal' army approach (Principes) would be able to accomplish much. This CL would only rely on technology for those that truly deserve it, ie the elites, and these would only be used in the thick of battle and where necessary. Personally, I think this makes a lot more sense than the currently similar, but more 'mish mash' approach we have, without any adequate armour, shields or indeed weaponry going about.

 

Societal Structure

 

I don't think I would substantially change how the Legion structures it's society, bar a few differences, which rather than imply as throughout the game, I would actually explicitly indicate, through places such as the Fort, and through appropriate dialogue.

 

Family

 

The Legion is the family, there is no family outside of the Legion. All children, when conceived, are to be handed over initially to the Priestesses of Mars, to be indoctrinated with the ideals of the Legion. Their further care will be provided by slaves, in the form of tutors, healers, midwives and so forth. At appropriate age, they are given to the military to begin their basic military training. Those that fail basic training, for whatever reason, but are seen as Legion minded may be discharged as 'civilians' and fulfil a variety of menial tasks not adequate for slaves, ie trade, technicians, dedicated healers/doctors/physicians, etc - basically the role of the 'freedmen' of ancient Rome.

 

Wives are only allowed to segments of the military, and to 'civillians' outside of it. All wives are taken from the slave pool, no wives are allowed outside of it. In the army, only those of the rank of Centurio and above may have a wife, and he may be shared at the discretion of the 'husband'. All civillian 'wives' are to be made available to all members of the Legion upon request, to signify the military's dominance over the civilian spheres, the primacy of the Legion, and the inadequacy of the civilian male.

 

Personally, I think this makes up for a society that, while extremely oppressive, has all the tenets to be able to support a large army, it has slave labour dedicated only for had work and menial tasks, it has a more 'managerial' and 'middle class' orientated civillian society that is still under total control of the military, and then it has an entire military infrastructure, with a society of it's own. This is a fluid, organic and flexible society, that one can see populating a wasteland - not the 'us or them' approach of the current CL.

 

In Practice

 

Within the game itself, I think the Legion should be less about this...

 

 

(Normal, unmodded Vanilla look)

 

Not quite as over the top as this...

 

 

(Caesar's New Regime mod)

 

And more well armoured, but subtle and lore friendly, like these two...

 

 

(Armour of the 87th Tribe, available in the Lonesome Road DLC)

 

Or this, but a little more colourful and 'legionfied'...

 

 

(Legion Redesigned mod)

 

A full discussion of these mods can be found at the end of page 3, and the start of page 4 of this thread.

 

----- I'm ending this here because I'm tired today, and I've written a lot, but I intend to expand on this later as I think the other aspects more thoroughly. I would very much appreciate any input, criticisms and feedback of these ideas.

 

Thanks.

 

[D_KNIGHT_PEN]

I agree with your interpretation of legion wives. I think that the legion officers may have specified concubines that they "use" more than others and may give some special treatment to. However i think that the officers if they see their concubines abusing their special privileges(i.e. saying no to any legion member unless on a task for someone higher up) they would take away their special privileges and punish them.

[Ragged Robin]

You have made some good points here. Is it possible that:

Caesar simply imposed his own warped view on history? (He wouldn't be the first historian to do so)

Or has adapted his understanding to best fit the prejudices of the tribes that his fighting men had absorbed?

As you clearly appreciate, to the historical Romans, family was everything and the empire was all in all. Women were in their own way were respected and not just whores and mistresses. Even slaves of the time were accorded certain rights.

As for armour and technology. Rome could afford the best designed armour and engineers (mostly Greek) to build terrifying weapons and siege equipment. For their time, what they used was cutting edge (almost a pun).

It seems, that rather than basing himself on the Roman Empire itself, he seems to have perhaps loosely based the whole thing on some of Julius's war campaigns, ignoring the backup and support of the resources that only Rome and/or Roman conquered settlements and territories could provide.

 

Basically, like you, I find it unlikely that Fallout's Legion would survive long in a prolonged conflict with something like the NCR. Even at best, it would not survive much past his death. Most likely the Legion would break up into factions, probably along tribal lines and would largely be forgotten within a generation.

[sen4mi]

I think several things need to be taken into account here.

 

First, Caesar is not being honest with you.

 

For example, if you get on his bad sides, he will send hit squads after you, and they will have firearms, explosives, and so on. Or, you might notice the howitzers he has sitting in his camp.

 

Quite probably, the issue is not that they will not use firearms, but that they tend to use up all the firearms they gain access to, so he needs a story to tell his people -- they are too good, and do not need firearms.

 

Also, a lot of the things he pulls off probably involve the use of stealth and/or stealth boys. (And if you gain his favor you will get access to some of those stealth boys.)

 

Also, if the NCR buys into his "we only fight hand to hand", and prepares their strategies accordingly? How is this a problem? If Caesar is to be a successful military leader, he is going to want to have the NCR attack him in places where he does not care about defending, and he is going to want them to pull their troops away from the places that he will be wanting to attack. And, since Caesar is obsessive about this, I can easily imagine he is always working on this kind of issue.

 

Also, they are in essence, an army, armies have always tended to have rather dismal support for a normal family life. So I think you should not be comparing Caesar's legion to Rome the nation, but instead you should be comparing them to a Roman army.

 

I could go on -- there are a lot of hints in the game about just how deceitful (or, "creative" if you want the positive flavored version of that issue) Caesar is.... *cough* I mean just how great of a leader he is *looks over shoulder*.

[KainsChylde]

I believe its the Caesars New Regime mod you mentioned that raised a good point. Historically, Romans considered it a betrayal to overly rely on any one fighting style or technique. In order to remain in the fore on the battlefront, you have to adapt and use any and every advantage available. So from that perspective, New Vegas Caesar is either a liar or an idiot. If your opponent uses firearms, Roman policy would dictate that you use bigger firearms. If your opponent uses melee weapons, you use ranged weapons, etc. Hand to hand combat techniques are good to know and be proficient in, guns break, ammo runs out, etc. But being overly dependent on any one combat style either melee or ranged is just foolish.

[Daguy]

I don't really have much to add from a lore front as I don't know a great deal about the Romans, Van Buren, and though I like Fallout I know only limited amounts about the lore.

 

What I do know is if you up weapon damage up to a realistic level with mods... The Legion become meat for the grinder. they just can't compete with bursts from the NCR guns. If they ambush with melee i've seen them rip through an NCR squad and been killed b them myself, but nine encounters out of ten the NCR win with little to no casualties and those losses are generally to the few single-shots the Legion get off before being minced. NCR arn't well armored either, but they have superior weaponry.

 

I think one of the Legions bigger strengths is supposed to be a ludicrous human resources department. i.e. Thye vacuum every tribe they pass up and throw them at their enemies.

[gregathit]

I believe its the Caesars New Regime mod you mentioned that raised a good point. Historically' date=' Romans considered it a betrayal to overly rely on any one fighting style or technique. In order to remain in the fore on the battlefront, you have to adapt and use any and every advantage available. So from that perspective, New Vegas Caesar is either a liar or an idiot. If your opponent uses firearms, Roman policy would dictate that you use bigger firearms. If your opponent uses melee weapons, you use ranged weapons, etc. Hand to hand combat techniques are good to know and be proficient in, guns break, ammo runs out, etc. But being overly dependent on any one combat style either melee or ranged is just foolish.

[/quote']

 

Yes and no here. Romans were adaptable that much is beyond dispute. However why they adapted is another matter altogether. It was not from any moral stance that much is quite clear. Rather they adapted when they were beaten. Things that plagued the Romans (who were primarily an infantry force) were archers and cavalry. Until they managed to get the Numidian cavalry to join them they constantly had their flanks routed and were it not for their outstanding infantry center they would have been decimated.

 

In some cases (the victories of Hannibal are a good example) the Romans didn't embrace change fast enough and suffered for it. Were it not for the wise strategy of Fabius Maximus (the Fabian strategy *) and Scipio Africanus who conquered Iberia (cutting off men and materials to Carthage) and then finally launching an invasion of Carthage itself (which forced Hannibal to strand most of his army and all his allies in Italy and race back to defend the capital) the outcome might have been vastly different.

 

Yes this did drive home some lessons on flexibility to the Romans who incorporated auxiliaries of both archers and cavalry but they remained primarily a foot dominated force until their collapse.

 

Another example of not the Romans not paying attention is the Battle of Carrhae where the Romans were under Crassus. This was one of the worst defeats that Roman ever suffered. Again, cavalry outmaneuvered the heavy Roman infantry and ultimately decimated it.

 

Long story short, the Romans had their fair share of pulling a stupid so let's cut Caesar's legion a little bit of slack. It took the Romans a quite a few years to hit their stride.

 

Another thing I would agree with you on is both the NV legion an Rome could be F'ing brutal to their enemies! This generated such a level of fear (akin to the later Mongols) that when the Roman legions showed up the enemy simply opened their gates and surrendered.

 

* When the Romans got fed up with the Fabian strategy and demanded a battle the got the debacle at Cannae.

[ChancellorKremlin]

I agree with your interpretation of legion wives. I think that the legion officers may have specified concubines that they "use" more than others and may give some special treatment to. However i think that the officers if they see their concubines abusing their special privileges(i.e. saying no to any legion member unless on a task for someone higher up) they would take away their special privileges and punish them.

 

Yes' date=' I think the 'select' few, whether we call them wives, or concubines or whatnot, would still have to adhere to a set of rules. Ie, they are 'officer wives' only, and maybe it is at her husband's discretion whom she is made available to?

 

You have made some good points here. Is it possible that:

Caesar simply imposed his own warped view on history? (He wouldn't be the first historian to do so)

Or has adapted his understanding to best fit the prejudices of the tribes that his fighting men had absorbed?

As you clearly appreciate, to the historical Romans, family was everything and the empire was all in all. Women were in their own way were respected and not just whores and mistresses. Even slaves of the time were accorded certain rights.

As for armour and technology. Rome could afford the best designed armour and engineers (mostly Greek) to build terrifying weapons and siege equipment. For their time, what they used was cutting edge (almost a pun).

 

It seems, that rather than basing himself on the Roman Empire itself, he seems to have perhaps loosely based the whole thing on some of Julius's war campaigns, ignoring the backup and support of the resources that only Rome and/or Roman conquered settlements and territories could provide.

 

Basically, like you, I find it unlikely that Fallout's Legion would survive long in a prolonged conflict with something like the NCR. Even at best, it would not survive much past his death. Most likely the Legion would break up into factions, probably along tribal lines and would largely be forgotten within a generation.

 

Yes, you make some interesting points. I think one thing we need to take care of, and I think a lot of modders get pissy about, is that CL is not the same as the Roman Empire. They diverge in quite a lot of aspects (family, as we have mentioned, being one) and military doctrines being the other.

 

Caesar is just recycling 'old' material to fit his own needs, and to match his own warped interpretation of humanity's needs and goals, and using some elements of the Romans as a template. His refusal to use superior technology because it weakens his soldiers is at odds with the Romans predisposition to adopt any new style of warfare that proved superior to theirs, albeit reluctantly at times.

 

I think several things need to be taken into account here.

 

First' date=' Caesar is not being honest with you.

 

For example, if you get on his bad sides, he will send hit squads after you, and they will have firearms, explosives, and so on. Or, you might notice the howitzers he has sitting in his camp.

 

Quite probably, the issue is not that they will not use firearms, but that they tend to use up all the firearms they gain access to, so he needs a story to tell his people -- they are too good, and do not need firearms.[/quote']

 

I agree with you up to this point, deception or indeed, just plain hypocrisy is a good answer to some of these problems.

 

Also' date=' if the NCR buys into his "we only fight hand to hand", and prepares their strategies accordingly? How is this a problem? If Caesar is to be a successful military leader, he is going to want to have the NCR attack him in places where he does not care about defending, and he is going to want them to pull their troops away from the places that he will be wanting to attack. And, since Caesar is obsessive about this, I can easily imagine he is always working on this kind of issue.[/quote']

 

I didn't understand this passage.

 

Also' date=' they are in essence, an army, armies have always tended to have rather dismal support for a normal family life. So I think you should not be comparing Caesar's legion to Rome the nation, but instead you should be comparing them to a Roman army.[/quote']

 

It does seem more like the Roman Army than the Roman people (as mentioned above, Caesar in Gaul and nothing to support him) but even then, the Roman Army was only successful because it had the might of the Republic (and then the Empire) behind it to fund it, train it, organise it, provide martial, political and religious direction, etc. One can't work without the other, and this is what bothers me with CL - it's like they are just a massive raider gang, operating on gang principles, but not at the same time, because they do hold territory, they do have cities, they have a whole population under their control, and an entire civilian infrastructure needs to exist to support it.

 

Taking the comparing them to the Roman Army analogy further, even though soldiers weren't allowed to marry in the Roman army, illegitimate marriages were still pretty much ignored/given a blind eye, and any officer above the rank of Centurio could actually legally marry too. I think it should be the same with CL.

 

I believe its the Caesars New Regime mod you mentioned that raised a good point. Historically' date=' Romans considered it a betrayal to overly rely on any one fighting style or technique. In order to remain in the fore on the battlefront, you have to adapt and use any and every advantage available. So from that perspective, New Vegas Caesar is either a liar or an idiot. If your opponent uses firearms, Roman policy would dictate that you use bigger firearms. If your opponent uses melee weapons, you use ranged weapons, etc. Hand to hand combat techniques are good to know and be proficient in, guns break, ammo runs out, etc. But being overly dependent on any one combat style either melee or ranged is just foolish.

[/quote']

 

The point here, again, is that we need to recognise that CL and the Roman army are two different entities, and having one imitate the other raises all the problems we've mentioned here.

 

My problem with CL as represented ingame is that to follow their own standards, realistically, their hard hitters (melee infantry) would have to be a lot more heavily armoured to survive the mad rushes to the enemy. Football gear alone does not stop bullets, I think it would at least make sense if their front line infantry was a little better armoured, that is all I am saying.

 

I think this is one of the biggest plot holes of CL, and I am finding it difficult reconciling lore with an approach that works with verisimilitude. Caesar's New Regime is good in that aspect, but it goes way over the top and creates a plethora of it's own problems and plot holes.

 

I don't really have much to add from a lore front as I don't know a great deal about the Romans' date=' Van Buren, and though I like Fallout I know only limited amounts about the lore.

 

What I do know is if you up weapon damage up to a realistic level with mods... The Legion become meat for the grinder. they just can't compete with bursts from the NCR guns. If they ambush with melee i've seen them rip through an NCR squad and been killed b them myself, but nine encounters out of ten the NCR win with little to no casualties and those losses are generally to the few single-shots the Legion get off before being minced. NCR arn't well armored either, but they have superior weaponry.

 

I think one of the Legions bigger strengths is supposed to be a ludicrous human resources department. i.e. Thye vacuum every tribe they pass up and throw them at their enemies.

[/quote']

 

Indeed, higher damage ratings tend to be closer to reality, and I like things to be at least mildly realistic, ie I don't question why Power Armour is armour-proof, but I do see the metal plates there, same with metal armour to some extent, I can see why it would sort of provide some protection against ballistics. But football gear does not, and Caesar says himself that when he was teaching the blackfoot tribe, he instructed them in the use of firearms and so forth, he didn't just say 'no, keep using your spears and daggers, it makes you stronger'

 

Personally, I envisave the legion as being a lot more powerful, well-equipped and armed and armoured than they are portrayed in game. They're a professional military fighting force, not football hooligans.

 

Yes and no here. Romans were adaptable that much is beyond dispute. However why they adapted is another matter altogether. It was not from any moral stance that much is quite clear. Rather they adapted when they were beaten. Things that plagued the Romans (who were primarily an infantry force) were archers and cavalry. Until they managed to get the Numidian cavalry to join them they constantly had their flanks routed and were it not for their outstanding infantry center they would have been decimated.

 

In some cases (the victories of Hannibal are a good example) the Romans didn't embrace change fast enough and suffered for it. Were it not for the wise strategy of Fabius Maximus (the Fabian strategy *) and Scipio Africanus who conquered Iberia (cutting off men and materials to Carthage) and then finally launching an invasion of Carthage itself (which forced Hannibal to strand most of his army and all his allies in Italy and race back to defend the capital) the outcome might have been vastly different.

 

Yes this did drive home some lessons on flexibility to the Romans who incorporated auxiliaries of both archers and cavalry but they remained primarily a foot dominated force until their collapse.

 

Another example of not the Romans not paying attention is the Battle of Carrhae where the Romans were under Crassus. This was one of the worst defeats that Roman ever suffered. Again' date=' cavalry outmaneuvered the heavy Roman infantry and ultimately decimated it.

 

Long story short, the Romans had their fair share of pulling a stupid so let's cut Caesar's legion a little bit of slack. It took the Romans a quite a few years to hit their stride.

 

Another thing I would agree with you on is both the NV legion an Rome could be F'ing brutal to their enemies! This generated such a level of fear (akin to the later Mongols) that when the Roman legions showed up the enemy simply opened their gates and surrendered.

 

* When the Romans got fed up with the Fabian strategy and demanded a battle the got the debacle at Cannae.

[/quote']

 

A very good overview of the mechanics behind military innovation in the Roman Republic, you clearly you know your stuff. Rome had a lot of defeats under it's belt, and was a very slow learner, as you have pointed out, they took ages to eventually develop their own heavy cavalry, auxiliary corps and to implement different tactics.

 

The difference is, they lived in an age where not necessarily adopting these tactics did not always result in defeat. CL lives in an age of bullets and armour vs spears and a barechest, there is no conceivable way an army that does take advantage of these utensils would have thrived in this wasteland, not to the extent CL have, equalling the NCR almost.

 

Way I see the Legion' date=' everything can be reconciled, aside from the silly practice of using football equipment as armor.

 

First, you have to realize you're dealing with two distinct entities: Ed Sallow, the man who calls himself Caesar, and the Legion.

 

Caesar, like all successful dictators, has a combination of a brilliant mind, complete ruthlessness and an education. He is fundamentally hypocritical in that what's best for the Legion, and by extension humanity, is not always best for Ed Sallow. While legionaries are trained to live and die at his command and give up everything that makes them an individual to further the Legion's cause, Caesar has a queen bed and privacy at the Fort. Where legionaries are forbidden to use chems or advanced medicine, Caesar has a personal autodoc.

 

The Legion as an organization are neo-luddite. Caesar himself, on the other hand, is hypocritical in his personal life; this is a testament to the character being well-written. He will speak philosophically about how reliance on technology makes men weak and to keep the Legion strong he must have his men rely on it as little as possible. On the other hand, he uses technology for his personal comfort freely - he's the sole exception to his own rule. When it comes to weaponry, legionaries are sometimes armed with marksman carbines and ballistic fists and the like, but never for low profile missions. What Caesar espouses isn't a rejection of technology but a philosophy of only using as much as you need and no more.

 

As for supply depots and settlements, absolutely they have them. Cass will tell you caravans trading in Legion territory are never attacked by raiders because they've killed or absorbed all the raiders, something Heinlein describes in the book Starship Troopers as "turning the wolves into sheepdogs;" if you have all the hyper aggressive types under your command, they're bound by your rules.

 

Flagstaff is a capital of sorts, probably the closest thing they have to a real city. Tucson is also under their control. Caesar wants New Vegas because it solidifies his control of the Colorado river, gives him the power supplied by Hoover Dam and gives him a stunning capital from which to turn his Legion into a Republic with citizens instead of just slaves and legionaries. He's in a long process of solidifying his empire, and once he has NV that process is complete.

 

His disallowing of high technology for frivolous purposes and chem use is, he'll tell you, to make the Legion stronger. But I have no doubt his motive his more sinister. He knows he's riding herd on a bunch of ignorant tribals; his authority comes not only form his conquests, but from the fact he proclaims himself son of the war god Mars. The cult of Mars seems to be the only religion followed by the Legion, Caesar their god's living son. As soon as one of those legionaries starts doing something like playing around with high tech and researching history, like Ulysses did, the whole thing could unravel.

 

Family ties directly into religion and settlements - when a woman in the Legion gives birth to a child, she does not raise it. They are instead taken care of by Caesar's priestesses of Mars, and raised by them. This would also definitely mean there is a hierarchy to slaves in the Legion; you can even occasionally see legionaries identifying themselves as slaves to the Legion as everyone regardless of stature is considered to be a slave to Caesar. I actually base a lot of dialog in SexoutLegion on this concept.

[/quote']

 

A very good post. I think I agree with you the only problem with CL is their silly reliance on football gear, which presumably was only used in the Lore because of the resemblance to the ancient roman Lorica segmentata (segmented plates, with pauldrons) but then again, there are many ways of having similar looking armour without having to rely on football gear alone.

 

Like I said, Caesars New Regime is good in that it replaces the armour with proper metal armour (thus rectifying that particular issue) but then it gets very silly very quickly, with a lot of gladiator-style looking armour, female soldiers, mutants, among other issues. So it's a no go for me, lore wise.

 

Caesar, or Ed Salow, is indeed brilliant, charismatic and successful, vital traits for any leader. He seems to rule by saying 'do as I say, not as I do' as you have pointed out, he has comforts, relies in technology, etc.

 

I realise they have cities and outposts and supply routes, but sometimes, the way Caesar portrays his army is kind of like the Mongols, moving from the isolated, sparsely inhabited steppes to the urbanised and civilized lands of China, the middle east and Europe. And that is not the case, he is more akin to say, the Macedonians under Alexander, or the Athenian Empire, or even Republican Rome, a medium sized power, with formidable resources and an urbanised, cultured social structure that seeks to dominate those around them. Personally, I like the Alexander/Macedonian parallel.

 

I suppose one way to reconcile this is that New Vegas is one of the few cities that was never bombed, and as such, Caesar may not possess anything remotely similar to that in his lands, so it does make for a suitable capital, both practically, symbolically (having taken it from the NCR) and also because of the dam and it's tremendous capacity for generating electricity.

 

So having taken all that into consideration, below is how I would portray Caesar's Legion, and how I would mod them to make them appear ingame.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Military

 

Militarily, I would separate them into three 'corps' so to speak, mirroring ancient republican armies both in name and in style of fighting, that is, the Hastati, the Principes, and the Triarii/Praetorians.

 

- Hastati:

 

In any attack, the first line would be made up of the 'Hastati', comprising about 35% of the legion. Young, inexperienced, conscripted warriors (reconditioned slaves, tribal mergers, legion children come of age and what-not) whose sole purpose is to rush towards the enemy and break them down through sheer brute force and strength of numbers.

 

In this corp would be the recruits, the recruit decani, recruit centurios and so forth. They would be armed with melee weapons used for shock purposes (axes, throwing hatchets, spears, swords, power first and so forth) and armoured in combat armour (heavily customised to fit the legion 'outlook' off course) which, as far as I know, is the only armour in the ingame lore which has the capacity to moderately absorb bullet damage. They would need it in order to charge enemies. To offer them further protection, add to the realism of the game, and even tie the legion more with it's ancestral roots, I would also give them riot shields, which would obviously provide them with increased protection, but also made them look more 'legion' and increase their chances of survival.

 

- Principes

 

The second corp would be the principes, comprising approximately 45% of the legion. These are the men at the prime of their life, experienced, well seasoned soldiers, who have survived many tours of being Hastati. Being the second line, they do not need to be as heavily armoured as the fisrt, so I think using the armour of the 87th tribe as a base, they could wear this type of armour, and variants, which are made of metal and offer moderate protection for all forms of harm. They would be the 'soldiers' of the legion, fighting in much the same capacity as NCR trooepers do - as marksmen, infantrymen, light support infantry with machine guns, heavy weapons, sappers, etc. This would be the 'core' of the legion army, which sweeps in after the hastati have utterly demoralised the enemy. In here would be the legion veterans, prime legionaries, veteran centurios and exploratores.

 

- Triarii/Praetorians

 

The third corp, would be the Triarii, subdivided into the Triarii proper, and the Praetorians, comprising approximately approximately 20% of the Legion, or 10% each. They are the last line of offense/defence, their task is to smash through whatever the other two lines have not destroyed.

 

- Triarii

 

The Triarii are the old veterans, the really experienced members, those who have excelled physically and mentally, the true heroes of the Legion. After decades of service, Triarii members are rewarded with heavy duty armour, say Combat Armour MKII (legion modified of course) with a mix of melee heavy weapons and high powered rifles. In this way, both those with a predisposition for brute force and those with one for ranged weaponry benefit.

 

- Praetorians

 

The Praetorians in turn are the elite of this elite, the creme de la creme, the personal, hand-picked bodyguard of Caesar himself. This corps would be armoured in only the best - ie salvaged power armour (legion style) or even functioning power armour - this corps is smaller than the rest, so I think power armour isn't overkill here, because only very few legion members would wear it. It also illustrates just how powerful this small group can be, and it would be feasible because it is highly likely CL have come across suits in military bases, depots, vaults and other installations in the Colorado. These would be the most experienced members of the legion, the elite, the bodyguards of the great Caesar himself, hand picked and armed only with the latest weaponry, ie energy weapons, high powered rifles, thermic lances, protonic axes etc etc.

 

Militarily, I think this works because it still shows CL is not relying too heavily on technology, because 80% of their entire army is still only a 'medium' fighting force, moderately armed and armoured, counting more on their training and experience to survive than on their reliance on technology. In this CL, technology only really shows it's head when push comes to shove, or 'to fall back on the Triarii' as the ancient Romans called it, because if at any point the Triarii/Praetorians would have to be used, then that means the shit has really hit the fan, and everything goes. Plus, 20% is a really small number of the total fighting force, and they would only be used in missions that both the Hastati and Principes could not achieve alone, after all - those two are really the 'bread and butter' of the legion.

 

- Tactics

 

Tactically, I think this new Legion would operate in much the same way the current one does, with a few minor differences. First, the lines of offense. The first line would be comprised of the inexperienced Hastati, and would entail an overwhelming brutal assault by these men, hiding behind their riot shields and using hand to hand weaponry to utterly batter the enemy into submission. Following waves can take cover behind their shields, so they literally lead the way for the other waves, as they shoot from behind cover, at which point the Hastati charge ferociously into the fore.

 

The second wave would be the attack 'proper' after the Hastati have demoralised the enemy, and would consist of the actual soldier following up the original attack, and acting like soldiers, that is, taking cover, sniping, providing fire support, engaging in close quarter combat and clearing rooms, covering ground, etc. Anything the Hastati missed with their melee weapons, the Principes would follow up in the traditional military manner - with their long range rifles and weaponry.

 

Should the second wave fail, it then falls down to the Triarii, even better armoured and armed than both the Hastati and Principes, to finish the job. Half of them would follow up with a brutal assault of the enemy, which would be severely undermanned and under-strength from the first two waves, closing in with hand to hand weapons, while the second half follow up with covering fire, snipers, etc. It's basically a repetition of the first two waves, but made up of the elite.

 

Following this would be the Praetorians themselves. Here the Legion's reliance on technology would show, as in ideal situations, both the Triarii and Praetorians would never even be used. Charging into battle in powered/salvaged armour, with high tech weaponry and deadly close quarters melee weapons, nothing would be able to withstand a direct assault of Caesar's personal guard itself.

 

Accompanying each group would obviously be a Vexilarius, which would be a little more heavily armoured than the rest of his counterparts, signifying his importance and the need in combat to act as a rallying point, and as inspiration. It is every Legionary's duty to protect him, and shame should follow if they allow him to fall or their standard to be captured.

 

I think in this way, we have combat that actually makes sense from both a lore point of view and realistically, because each corp of the Legion compliments each other, and it would be easy to see why a mix of brute strength and melee fighting (the Hastati) when supported properly by a 'normal' army approach (Principes) would be able to accomplish much. This CL would only rely on technology for those that truly deserve it, ie the elites, and these would only be used in the thick of battle and where necessary. Personally, I think this makes a lot more sense than the currently similar, but more 'mish mash' approach we have, without any adequate armour, shields or indeed weaponry going about.

 

Societal Structure

 

I don't think I would substantially change how the Legion structures it's society, bar a few differences, which rather than imply as throughout the game, I would actually explicitly indicate, through places such as the Fort, and through appropriate dialogue.

 

Family

 

The Legion is the family, there is no family outside of the Legion. All children, when conceived, are to be handed over initially to the Priestesses of Mars, to be indoctrinated with the ideals of the Legion. Their further care will be provided by slaves, in the form of tutors, healers, midwives and so forth. At appropriate age, they are given to the military to begin their basic military training. Those that fail basic training, for whatever reason, but are seen as Legion minded may be discharged as 'civilians' and fulfil a variety of menial tasks not adequate for slaves, ie trade, technicians, dedicated healers/doctors/physicians, etc - basically the role of the 'freedmen' of ancient Rome.

 

Wives are only allowed to segments of the military, and to 'civillians' outside of it. All wives are taken from the slave pool, no wives are allowed outside of it. In the army, only those of the rank of Centurio and above may have a wife, and he may be shared at the discretion of the 'husband'. All civillian 'wives' are to be made available to all members of the Legion upon request, to signify the military's dominance over the civilian spheres, the primacy of the Legion, and the inadequacy of the civilian male.

 

Personally, I think this makes up for a society that, while extremely oppressive, has all the tenets to be able to support a large army, it has slave labour dedicated only for had work and menial tasks, it has a more 'managerial' and 'middle class' orientated civillian society that is still under total control of the military, and then it has an entire military infrastructure, with a society of it's own. This is a fluid, organic and flexible society, that one can see populating a wasteland - not the 'us or them' approach of the current CL.

 

----- I'm ending this here because I'm tired today, and I've written a lot, but I intend to expand on this later as I think the other aspects more thoroughly. I would very much appreciate any input, criticisms and feedback of these ideas.

 

Thanks.

[sen4mi]

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

I am sure he uses that kind of tactic, but I think it's for distraction purposes and for cleaning up a weakened enemy. Or maybe he might use massed combat in an act of desperation, if he's in a losing position and needs to dispose of troops that might rise up against him if he did not follow through on his plans.

 

I also think its clear that that "football armor" can be reinforced. (In the vanilla game legion armor will range in DT from 6..18).

 

Anyways, he has howitzers and he wants to use them and he makes this clear -- his problem there is getting them to work (thus the "I Hear You Knocking" quest). And he would also like to ally with the Boomers (or Caesar wants you to ally with the legion and then with the Boomers).

 

Finally, if you mod the game to increase weapon damage without increasing legion armor to match, that's a mod problem and not a game lore problem.

 

Edit:

 

Also' date=' if the NCR buys into his "we only fight hand to hand", and prepares their strategies accordingly? How is this a problem? If Caesar is to be a successful military leader, he is going to want to have the NCR attack him in places where he does not care about defending, and he is going to want them to pull their troops away from the places that he will be wanting to attack. And, since Caesar is obsessive about this, I can easily imagine he is always working on this kind of issue.[/quote']

 

I didn't understand this passage.

 

For example:

 

Imagine that you are an NCR officer, and you know that Caesar's Legion only uses melee weapons.

 

So, you arrange for all of your troops to be up on elevated platforms, so they can shoot oncoming legionaires, and drop grenades on them -- you want a ranged battle. So Caesar brings in a team of snipers...

[Menesh]

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

Actually it would, if your numbers are high enough. The Soviet Union used that tactics a lot in WWII against german defense lines. Eventually the german machine guns would overheat and be swarmed by masses of soldiers with cheap rifles and combat knives. In close combat firearms are pretty useless.

[sen4mi]

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

Actually it would' date=' if your numbers are high enough. The Soviet Union used that tactics a lot in WWII against german defense lines. Eventually the german machine guns would overheat and be swarmed by masses of soldiers with cheap rifles and combat knives. In close combat firearms are pretty useless.

[/quote']

 

I think that, in New Vegas, NCR has the numbers.

 

Also, if you listen to Sergeant Reyes, when you start the Return to Sender quest, she will explain:

 

Less than a third of reported enemy sightings are getting intercepted. Either our intel is faulty' date=' or our enemies are one step ahead of us.[/quote']

 

And, given the game detail, I think that both are the case. For example, consider npc "00133eba", a legion assassin equipped with a sniper rifle and with the npc name "NCR Ranger", and the AI packages: VHDLegionAssassinLurePlayerPackage, VHDLegionAssassinEscapePackage, VHDLegionAssassinKillKimballPackage, VHDLegionAssassinKillGuardPackage, DefaultPatrolWeaponDrawn, ... how could this kind of thing even be possible without deep penetration of the NCR? And how would this kind of thing be meaningful if Caesar is just going to overrun their positions using a dumb rush of expendable bodies?

[ChancellorKremlin]

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

Yet' date=' it is explicitly stated by the NCR and Caesar himself, that he quite frequently uses rushing tactics, with his men practically wearing next to nothing and a knife. That is indeed my problem, it would not work against firearms, which is why I think this wave should be a lot more heavily armoured/protected.

 

I am sure he uses that kind of tactic, but I think it's for distraction purposes and for cleaning up a weakened enemy. Or maybe he might use massed combat in an act of desperation, if he's in a losing position and needs to dispose of troops that might rise up against him if he did not follow through on his plans.

 

It doesn't look that way. Even at the battle of Hoover Damn, the first and second, he relied on human waves. Indeed, any fight you go against the legion, is going to be 2-3 melee fighters rushing you, and 2-3 providing covering fire. That's just how it is ingame, and it seems to be a preferred tactic of Caesar.

 

I'm not making these tactics up based on some misplaced nostalgic sentiment for the way the ancient Romans fought, but for how I see them doing it ingame. At least my way, it's plausible it would work, while currently, it is not.

 

I also think its clear that that "football armor" can be reinforced. (In the vanilla game legion armor will range in DT from 6..18).

 

That's besides the point though' date=' too much suspension of disbelief going on there for me to accept it readily. I can see metal armour protecting against bullets, that is fair enough, but not football armour with a few added improvements. The point is, they would stand next to no chance against an opponent with a firearm, which requires either that they change their tactics, or their armour. My way I keep their tactics, but at least make them more readily believable as foes.

 

Finally, if you mod the game to increase weapon damage without increasing legion armor to match, that's a mod problem and not a game lore problem.

 

Again, that is really besides the point. Even without any modifications. As it is, any kind of firearm should penetrate their flimsy armour. It's inconceivable they have conquered so much territory, relying in rush tactics, melee weapons and no armour.

 

Edit:

 

For example:

 

Imagine that you are an NCR officer' date=' and you know that Caesar's Legion only uses melee weapons.

 

So, you arrange for all of your troops to be up on elevated platforms, so they can shoot oncoming legionaires, and drop grenades on them -- you want a ranged battle. So Caesar brings in a team of snipers...

[/quote']

 

I don't have a problem with this. Both in the game itself, and in my theoretical modded version, this kind of tactic would be easily dealt with. In game, some legion members use guns and would quickly fire on them. In my mod, they would be quickly shot at/sniped too.

 

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

Actually it would' date=' if your numbers are high enough. The Soviet Union used that tactics a lot in WWII against german defense lines. Eventually the german machine guns would overheat and be swarmed by masses of soldiers with cheap rifles and combat knives. In close combat firearms are pretty useless.

[/quote']

 

Indeed, historically, but more importantly, ingame, he says he does rely on such tactics. Apparently, this tactic worked very successfully in the first battle of hoover damn. My problem with it is that I have trouble believing it unless the legion members were either shielded from the bullets, or heavily armoured. There is no way a human wave of knife yielding, football equipment wearing 'soldiers', funnelled into the straight confines of the dam - what pretty much amounts to a bottleneck/kill zone - would have done that kind of damage. It requires too much suspension of disbelief, ergo, it needs some kind of qualifier.

 

I think that' date=' in New Vegas, NCR has the numbers.

 

Also, if you listen to Sergeant Reyes, when you start the Return to Sender quest, she will explain:

 

Less than a third of reported enemy sightings are getting intercepted. Either our intel is faulty, or our enemies are one step ahead of us.

 

And, given the game detail, I think that both are the case. For example, consider npc "00133eba", a legion assassin equipped with a sniper rifle and with the npc name "NCR Ranger", and the AI packages: VHDLegionAssassinLurePlayerPackage, VHDLegionAssassinEscapePackage, VHDLegionAssassinKillKimballPackage, VHDLegionAssassinKillGuardPackage, DefaultPatrolWeaponDrawn, ... how could this kind of thing even be possible without deep penetration of the NCR? And how would this kind of thing be meaningful if Caesar is just going to overrun their positions using a dumb rush of expendable bodies?

 

Isn't that what he does anyway? You seem to be ignoring the ingame mechanics sen4me, I'm not saying Caesar is dumb or doesn't know how to use tactics, but the Legion as a whole shows a predisposition for melee weapons over firearms, so their tactics will inevitably have to encompass some form of dumb rush. As a rule, most legionaries I fight do a dumb rush in any case. It's just how they fight.

 

And every Legion member is expendable and knows their place. From a lore and modders perspective, it would be a lot easier to just change their tactics and make them fight like the NCR (ie, from behind cover, with firearms, etc) but it would fail both their ideology and the lore. Thus, it is easier to just change a few facets, such as their armour and lack of shields, to bring them both more in line with reality and with verisimilitude.

[ChancellorKremlin]

Updates OP with expanded view of how a plausible, effective and lore-friendly Legion should be.

 

See here:

[sen4mi]

I do not think Caesar would ever rely on old fashion "open field mass formation tactice". That would not work against firearms.

 

Yet' date=' it is explicitly stated by the NCR and Caesar himself, that he quite frequently uses rushing tactics, with his men practically wearing next to nothing and a knife. That is indeed my problem, it would not work against firearms, which is why I think this wave should be a lot more heavily armoured/protected.[/quote']

 

I think having covering fire, and good armor, and a crippled opponent is different from the massed unarmed open field tactics.

 

It doesn't look that way. Even at the battle of Hoover Damn' date=' the first and second, he relied on human waves. Indeed, any fight you go against the legion, is going to be 2-3 melee fighters rushing you, and 2-3 providing covering fire. That's just how it is ingame, and it seems to be a preferred tactic of Caesar.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I understand what problem you are trying to solve here. Is it that you have upgraded weapons and not upgraded armor?

 

I also think its clear that that "football armor" can be reinforced. (In the vanilla game legion armor will range in DT from 6..18).

 

That's besides the point though' date=' too much suspension of disbelief going on there for me to accept it readily. I can see metal armour protecting against bullets, that is fair enough, but not football armour with a few added improvements. The point is, they would stand next to no chance against an opponent with a firearm, which requires either that they change their tactics, or their armour. My way I keep their tactics, but at least make them more readily believable as foes.[/quote']

 

What is wrong with football armor concealing metal armor? Is it the exposed skin?

 

Females get armor with exposed skin, especially in the armor mods favored for Sexout, so I have been ignoring this issue for males. But if this is the problem you are trying to solve, I think you could solve it with some new armor meshes?

 

Finally' date=' if you mod the game to increase weapon damage without increasing legion armor to match, that's a mod problem and not a game lore problem.[/quote']

 

Again, that is really besides the point. Even without any modifications. As it is, any kind of firearm should penetrate their flimsy armour. It's inconceivable they have conquered so much territory, relying in rush tactics, melee weapons and no armour.

 

The base legion armor is equivalent to leather armor. Should leather be effective? Here we are getting into basic gameplay. Perhaps the issue is that most vanilla guns just do not work very well.

 

Sooner or later we are going to run into a key issue: this is a game, and not reality. But even if you are only going to rebuild legion armor based on some kind of new combat design, I think you need to re-mod all armors and weapons in the game to be consistent with that design?

 

If you just want Legion to be much stronger than NCR (which I think is how CNR is designed) that is fine, but you do not need "lore" or "game design" to support that kind of change. That's just modding.

 

Indeed' date=' historically, but more importantly, ingame, he says he does rely on such tactics. Apparently, this tactic worked very successfully in the first battle of hoover damn. My problem with it is that I have trouble believing it unless the legion members were either shielded from the bullets, or heavily armoured. There is no way a human wave of knife yielding, football equipment wearing 'soldiers', funnelled into the straight confines of the dam - what pretty much amounts to a bottleneck/kill zone - would have done that kind of damage. It requires too much suspension of disbelief, ergo, it needs some kind of qualifier.[/quote']

 

I think that the first battle was a combination of effects. Of course, Caesar could have had the numbers advantage, there. And, covering fire can reduce how much damage your own troops are taking. But if he was fighting then anything like how he is fighting now, misdirection can also have had a part to play, with the rushing troops being a distraction which keeps people from noticing some of the other things that are happening.

 

Isn't that what he does anyway? You seem to be ignoring the ingame mechanics sen4me' date=' I'm not saying Caesar is dumb or doesn't know how to use tactics, but the Legion as a whole shows a predisposition for melee weapons over firearms, so their tactics will inevitably have to encompass some form of dumb rush. As a rule, most legionaries I fight do a dumb rush in any case. It's just how they fight.[/quote']

 

Ok, two things here:

 

First, I have never finished the game. That part of the game has never interested me. So I have to take you word for what happens there.

 

But you are telling me that they use guns in that part of the game. And that they have armor good enough to stand up to the NCR. And perhaps NCR does not have enough active people defending the dam, because of subterfuge on the part of the legion?

 

And every Legion member is expendable and knows their place. From a lore and modders perspective' date=' it would be a lot easier to just change their tactics and make them fight like the NCR (ie, from behind cover, with firearms, etc) but it would fail both their ideology and the lore. Thus, it is easier to just change a few facets, such as their armour and lack of shields, to bring them both more in line with reality and with verisimilitude.

[/quote']

 

I do not know what problem you are trying to solve.

[Menesh]

I think that' date=' in New Vegas, NCR has the numbers.

[/quote']

 

A civilian republic with a standing army vs. a warrior culture where basically every man is a soldier?

I'm not sure exactly what in game text says about it, but logic would dictate that numbers should be greatly in favour of the Legion.

 

Indeed' date=' historically, but more importantly, ingame, he says he does rely on such tactics. Apparently, this tactic worked very successfully in the first battle of hoover damn. My problem with it is that I have trouble believing it unless the legion members were either shielded from the bullets, or heavily armoured. There is no way a human wave of knife yielding, football equipment wearing 'soldiers', funnelled into the straight confines of the dam - what pretty much amounts to a bottleneck/kill zone - would have done that kind of damage. It requires too much suspension of disbelief, ergo, it needs some kind of qualifier.

[/quote']

 

Soviet russia didn't give their soldiers heavy armor either. In fact the only thing they recieved was a lot of vodka before being sent half drunk into the german lines. Even the best firearm cannot shoot forever. You just need to sacrifice enough troops to make sure the remaining men manage to engage the enemy before their guns are ready to fire again. Of course the question is how effective this tactic is in a bottleneck, compared to an open field battle.

But still, in my opinion, this is a tactic that fits with the Legion and their ideology of every soldier being expendable.

[ChancellorKremlin]

I think having covering fire' date=' and good armor, and a crippled opponent is different from the massed unarmed open field tactics.[/quote']

 

You're not getting what I'm saying. You're thinking of the old battles of antiquity, with large bodies of men pressed close together in formations going against one another. This is not what I am advocating. I am saying the only purpose of large segments of the Legionaries is to rush the enemy. A key point of what you have said is 'good armour' - football protection is not 'good' armour, that is why I have trouble believing it.

 

The fact in the game it has a DT of 8-16 means nothing.

 

I am not sure I understand what problem you are trying to solve here. Is it that you have upgraded weapons and not upgraded armor?

 

Have you read my OP? My problem is this:

 

- I have trouble believing the silly' date=' realistically unarmoured and useless armour the Legion wears is capable of affording them the protection granted in game.

 

- I have trouble believing Caesar's tactic of having his men, wearing said crap armour, rushing into his enemies (all of which have firearms) would survive at any length, or indeed, enjoy the success frequently attributed to them.

 

- Ergo, only two options remains for a mod that explains Caesar's Legion making sense. Either you get rid of their rushing tactics, or you make it so that it becomes somewhat realistic, ie you increase their chances of survival, by giving them proper armour, or a shield, or both.

 

What is wrong with football armor concealing metal armor? Is it the exposed skin?

 

Females get armor with exposed skin, especially in the armor mods favored for Sexout, so I have been ignoring this issue for males. But if this is the problem you are trying to solve, I think you could solve it with some new armor meshes?

 

Yes, but the problem is it's not football gear concealing metal armour, it's just football gear full stop. I don't have a problem with the females, because they are not even meant to be in combat.

 

My problem is indeed the meshes. The entire point I have been making in this whole thread since the beginning, is that if I would redesign CL through say, a mod, I would make them much more heavily armoured so as to make their crazed tactics at least somewhat plausible. Caesar's New Regime came close, but then went totally over the top with it, much like the raiders in FO3.

 

The base legion armor is equivalent to leather armor. Should leather be effective? Here we are getting into basic gameplay. Perhaps the issue is that most vanilla guns just do not work very well.

 

No' date=' and that is my point. Leather armour would never be bullet proof. For metal armour I make a concession, because it is feasible in the Fallout world, that they have developed a technology that would allow it. Power Armour to me just seems like mechanized metal, and it seems to provide protection. Same for Combat Armour.

 

Sooner or later we are going to run into a key issue: this is a game, and not reality. But even if you are only going to rebuild legion armor based on some kind of new combat design, I think you need to re-mod all armors and weapons in the game to be consistent with that design?

 

I agree, but there is a difference here. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean it doesn't have to follow some of the basic tenets the game sets for itself. Its called verisimilitude, a word which is frequently misunderstood (or not at all) and which is very much ignored these days. My point is, in the game, a Legionary will take quite a few shots from an NCR soldier before he goes down - yet, he is only wearing light armour. Personally, it would make a lot more sense to me if his armour reflected this durability.

 

If you just want Legion to be much stronger than NCR (which I think is how CNR is designed) that is fine' date=' but you do not need "lore" or "game design" to support that kind of change. That's just modding.[/quote']

 

I don't want them to be stronger (except for the higher tier Legionaries, ie Triarii/Praetorians) I just want their armour to make sense, from both a lore and practical point of view. The reason I keep yapping on about lore is because it's important to me, yet, I can't ignore obvious inconsistencies within, and I would try to fix them to the best of my abilities.

 

In essence, if I did do it, I would create new armour meshes, to at least make their tactics and their looks more plausible and realistic, and lore friendly of course.

 

But you are telling me that they use guns in that part of the game. And that they have armor good enough to stand up to the NCR. And perhaps NCR does not have enough active people defending the dam' date=' because of subterfuge on the part of the legion?[/quote']

 

Yes, that's the problem. Their armour, being mere football gear, should not be bullet proof. Yet, it is somehow. It doesn't make sense, do you see where I am going with this?

 

I do not know what problem you are trying to solve.

 

It's simple' date=' I want to make them a believable faction, not the joke they currently are.

 

Soviet russia didn't give their soldiers heavy armor either. In fact the only thing they recieved was a lot of vodka before being sent half drunk into the german lines. Even the best firearm cannot shoot forever. You just need to sacrifice enough troops to make sure the remaining men manage to engage the enemy before their guns are ready to fire again. Of course the question is how effective this tactic is in a bottleneck, compared to an open field battle.

But still, in my opinion, this is a tactic that fits with the Legion and their ideology of every soldier being expendable.

 

Yes, but that was a tactic only used in desperation, last ditch efforts, and as far as I'm aware, only used in a handful of brutal battles. It wasn't the 'modus operandi' of the Soviet Army, precisely because it's a massive waste of life. But for Caesar's Legion, it does seem to be the way he does things, and I find it unbelievable he could have accomplished so much and remained a viable fighting force.

 

I too believe it fits in with the Legion, and their ideology and indeed, them staying true to ancient Roman tactics. But I still think their infantry needs a little more protection for that kind of tactic to work, or at least to reflect their resistance within the game.

[sen4mi]

But... we are talking of fallout, here, where we have fission batteries, nuclear rockets, robots, stealth boys, energy weapons, and... and a technique for curing leather which can apparently absorb the force of a .22

 

Is it really all that hard to believe that their football gear would have been equal to their leather, for protective purposes?

[KainsChylde]

There's a concept that seems to be implied in the game very subtly, that I think we're all missing.

 

The legionaries are all fanatically loyal to Caesar. When you help Lt. Boyd at McCarran interrogate the captured Centurion, she mentions that legion soldiers will suicide rather than be captured.

 

"Glory to Caesar!" is a frequent battlecry in the eastern portions of the Mojave.

 

Fanatical, uber loyal soldiers who would rather die than fail. Sound familiar?

 

Berserkers. Adrenaline-drunk berserker soldiers who go rage blind and rush anything in their path, ignoring injury until their legs are literally cut from under them. This would explain their overriding drive in the face of catastrophic losses with minimal armor and melee weapons.

 

Just a thought.

[gregathit]

I am guessing that the football armor was a stab at making the legion a little bit silly looking so as to vilify them. I do agree with the OP that the legion grunts need something a bit less "silly" and more practical such as bits of plate steel or such. The problem is making this type of thing "look" like any sort of uniform.

 

Perhaps that is also the problem that Bethesda had, trying to come up with some sort of "uniformed look" for the legion.

 

Drunk or fanatically loyal it would be silly to throw away troopers - many of whom would only be armed with blades against NCR troops with guns without some means of minimal protection. While the legion may have outnumbered the NCR I don't think the numbers alone would have been great enough to offset the guns. Shields or some sort of bullet resistant armor would have been a must.

[gregathit]

With all this talk of melee berzerkers' date=' has anyone since a legionary without a ranged weapon that doesn't have a powerfist ingame?

[/quote']

 

I have seen some with throwing spears and machete blades.....

[Ragged Robin]

 

Drunk or fanatically loyal it would be silly to throw away troopers - many of whom would only be armed with blades against NCR troops with guns without some means of minimal protection. While the legion may have outnumbered the NCR I don't think the numbers alone would have been great enough to offset the guns. Shields or some sort of bullet resistant armor would have been a must.

 

Could do worse with an adapted armour based on the classic Lorica Segmentata.

[gregathit]

I don't doubt it' date=' but the vast majority do have firearms.

[/quote']

 

To be perfectly honest I have not played vanilla in so long I forget how most of the legion was armed. In my version they carry cowboy repeaters at the low levels and AK47's at the upper tiers.

 

The Nipton Raiding party looks like this:

 

 

 

 

 

[KainsChylde]

What Legion mod is that? I love that look more than any other I've seen.

[KainsChylde]

The guns look correct in that picture' date=' though the outfits are different.

 

What my understanding was from the game is legionaries use firearms but are trained not to rely on them, so they prefer to go in for the kill.

 

At the first battle of Hoover Dam, the NCR was about to get overwhelmed and retreated to Boulder City in a feint. This got the legionaries' blood up and they chased them with machetes out. Hidden Rangers and First Recon dropped the hammer on their leadership with sniper rifles, and the advancing Legion really only had the option to suck and die. NCR knew they used guns at range and used close combat to close the deal, so they used their strength against them.

 

Now, in the second battle of Hoover Dam, you have legionaries with assault carbines, marksman rifles and trail carbines assaulting, and often not in massed charges. If you listen to the NCR radio, or fight for the NCR, there's a point where tricksy legionaries

crawl through non-functional water intakes to infiltrate the inside of the dam.

 

 

Now, there's other accounts of legionaries using mostly viscous hand-to-hand fighting, but those are of Caesar campaigning against the 86 tribes. With the Legion's philosophy of using no more force than necessary because it weakens your men, I don't see them going up against the Maltese Poodle tribe of Podunk, Colorado with with assault rifles and praetorian guard.

[/quote']

 

I love those tricksy legionaries.

 

With Wild Wasteland, you hear someone on the NCR Emergency channel going off about them "coming out of the walls!! Game over man, game over!!" Aliens reference, ftw.