[Idea/Design] More immersive restraints system

[monsta88]

Time to make another long post to see it unanswered and undeveloped. It is ok, this idea is far too much work to implement and would require to rewrite basically all existing DD stuff, so I completely understand that it won't happen. Why do I post it then? Well, some people might find some ideas in it, which might actually worth developing. For example I would really like to see the Lock Picking part developed (nudge nudge).

 

More immersive restraints

 

Currently all restraint items are player generated. The modders decide about the stats, enchantments and outlook of the restraint. This was all right when there were a couple of items with only a few variants, but nowadays if you browse a vendor with restraints, the list contain dozens, sometimes hundreds of items.

 

In my opinion, it would be awesome if restraints could work like the regular ingame weapons and armors do: they are being generated randomly. It would require a huge effort to create the basic system for this, but after that, adding new content would be much easier.

 

Of course this system would be just the base restraint system. Any modder could make unique restraint with unique effects, just like before. This system would just handle the regular stuff and would make implementation of new types/variants easier.

 

 

Lock & Key

 

In the current system, all restraints work in a uniform way, they open with a Restraint or Chastity key, regardless of the given item. The keys can be randomly found in containers or on people, or can be just simply crafted. While this system is easy to use, it definitely lacks the immersion factor. Here is an idea how the Key and Lock system could work.

 

There are 3 important factors when we deal with restraints

 

Material

 

What is the restraint made of. It can be any materials present in the game. New materials should be categorized into existing ones, or created new categories for them. For example Rubber might be categorized into Leather/Hide.

 

The material also determines how hard is to physically destroy (escape from) the restraint.

 

Lock

 

The lock is an integral part of the restraint, but has a separate difficulty level from Novice to Master (there should be at least 5 categories). Those who try to open the lock w/o the key will go against this difficulty.

 

Special rule: Applied if the player tries to open a restraint on herself. If she can easily access the locks , no penalty. If she can't easily access the lock, +2 difficulty level. (Seeing the lock is of secondary importance, since we can't see the insides of the lock anyway)

 

Modifiers

 

There can be a lot of modifiers/magical effects attached to both the Restraint and the Lock. These are Enchantments specifically designed for restraints. It can be anything, but in this case we care about only those effects which modify the above 2 methods of escaping.

A few examples:

• Hardened: Raises the material category
• Tamper-proof: Raises the lock difficulty category
• Old/brittle: Lowers material category
• Rusty lock: Raises Lock difficulty, lowers material difficulty
• Uniform lock: Standard keyed lock (like all the stuff now)
• Etc.

Each restraint is legoed together from these 3 elements. Standard restraints can be generated randomly (weighted random, so less chance for very easy and very hard results), but of course modders can create specific ones too.

 

At the end the item should look like this in the inventory: "Steel Arm Bands (Average Lock)" and the list of "Enchantments" for example Hardened. It is very similar how the weapons and enchantments work now.

 

 

Crafting/Enchanting

 

Since most modifiers are Enchantments, the player can learn and use them on other restraints.

Restraints can only be enchanted, upgrading is not possible (or it is if we want that).

 

 

Ok, but where are the keys?

 

Well, this is the weak point of this system. Each restraint would need a unique key. I have a few ideas to avoid the keypocalypse though.

 

Keys

 

In this system there is no difference between Restraints and Chastity devices, they are all just restraints with locks.

 

Each restraint requires a unique key to open. These can be generated with the restraint. However this would lead to a lot of unwanted things:

• too much keys in inventory
• increased difficulty to find keys
• always make sure the keys exist (for example they are on an NPC)

Solutions

 

Matching sets use 1 key: If a set is used with the same material and lock, the same key will open all restraints.

 

1 use magic keys: It is somewhat similar to the current Restraint/Chastity keys. The magic key is basically an Open Lock spell. It has a Lock difficulty level (so there are 5 types of this key). The magic key can open 1 lock which difficulty is equal or lower than the key's, then disappear.

Magic keys are illegal (for obvious reason), so they are rare and expensive. They count as contraband, so if the player gets arrested, the guards will take them automatically.

 

Less need for keys: A lot of the time keys are not really necessary, because other game mechanics can be used to open the locks. Also, a lot of the time it is not logical to have a key at all. For example if you get hit by a Cursed Loot, there will not be a key next to it. Or if bandits tie the character up, they won't necessarily have the key for those restraints.

 

Multiple restraints use the same key: If an NPC puts on several different restraints and it is important to have a key, he/she can have 1  key for all the restraint he equipped on the character. (this is similar to the Matching sets, but would be harder to implement)

 

 

How to escape from restraints

 

There are 3 basic methods

 

Use the Key

 

Duh.

 

 

Break the restraint/lock

 

You need the expertise, tools and ability to do it. It is not hard to cut off a leather armband, after all. An iron cuff is doable as well, you just need a good chisel and hammer (tools). It becomes more interesting, when it comes to removing a metal chastity belts or blindfold. Most restraints have higher difficulty when the player tries to remove them herself.

 

You can always ask an NPC as well to do it. All blacksmiths can break regular metal or leather restraints, it would be really a shame if they couldn't. Rare materials might require rare talent though, for example not all blacksmiths can work with dwemer metals.

 

Restrains removed this way are destroyed.

 

 

Pick the lock

 

The player can attempt to pick the lock. No penalty for accessible locks (like on the leg), penalties for the problematic ones (The ones she has hard time to reach. Not seeing is not too big problem IMO, since you don't see the insides of the lock anyway).

 

The player should use a slightly modified lockpicking minigame. The modification is that the restraint locks have generally higher difficulty level than the regular game locks and there is also a chance of jamming the lock when trying to open it with a lock pick.

 

Jamming Widget

 

There should be a widget bar indicator on the screen next to the Lockpicking Xp bar. The bar is empty at start (0). If it fills up (100), the lock is jammed. The bar can fill up for 2 reasons:

 

Broken lock pick: Each broken lockpick adds a fixed value to the bar. The value depends on the lock difficulty, it should be somewhere between 20 (easy lock) and 80 (master difficulty lock). So if someone breaks a lock pick on an easy lock, she can try it a few more times without fear of jamming it. On a master lock, there is only 1 chance to open it.

 

Over time: While the player is moving the lockpick, a timer works in the background. After a while, it will increase the Jamming bar by an amount. This feature simulates the small mechanism being manipulated by a metal tool. It gets damaged over time. (Actually it is just to compensate for the unbreakable lock picks, but whatever.) These are small increments, but they happen regularly. Like 1-3 points/second. It is important that this only happens when the player is actually working on the lock (strafe buttons).

 

If the player cancels the lockpicking, the jamming indicator stays on the last level (or resets after x hours).

 

Jammed locks can't be opened, the restraint must be destroyed to escape from it.

 

 

Lockpicking Skill

 

The Lockpicking skill becomes really important in this system, since it makes opening the locks easier. Also, there are skills which:

• make you a copy of key for the opened lock. This is a good way to get a key for the restraint.
• make the lock picks unbreakable. This really helps, since the jamming bar won't increase by the broken picks. However there is still the Over time stuff.

 

 

NPCs who can help the player

 

Average NPC

 

They can't open locks. They can cut off regular Leather (non-metallic) restraints. In the world of Skyrim, everyone has at least a dagger.

 

Blacksmith

 

They can't open locks, but they can destroy locks and regular restraints.

 

Specialized / Expert / Legendary Blacksmith

 

For special restraints, which are above the average level of blacksmithing, like Daedric, Dwemer, Dragon, etc.). There might be 1-2 blacksmiths who can work with any material, but most experts know only 1 (maybe 2) special materials.

 

Locksmiths

 

New NPC type. These NPCs have various skill level, but they all can easily open the regular locks. Some of them are highly regarded by their skill and hired by lords to create intricate locks for their safes and buildings.

 

Thieves

 

Depending on their level and expertise they can try to open locks. Most thieves doesn't have the required expertise to try and open very small, intricate locks. But here and there, the player can find a specialist, who can deal with these locks.

 

Mages

 

The mages specialized in Alternation school can be helpful in many ways. They can open locks for instance. Or if they lack the precision for the intricate small locks (most of them), at least they can change the material of the restraint to a lower category (or strengthen it if they are evil SOBs).

 

Enchanters may be able to disable an enchantment on the Restraint (or add more).

 

Summoners may be able to summon keys for some restraints.

 

Destruction mages might be able to destroy restraints or locks, but 99% of them doesn't like mini explosions, so they lack the precision and control to do this kind of delicate work.

 

 

 

Well, this was my idea. Any constructrive criticism is welcomed.

 

Peace,

M

[Princessity]

In my opinion, it would be awesome if restraints could work like the regular ingame weapons and armors do: they are being generated randomly. It would require a huge effort to create the basic system for this, but after that, adding new content would be much easier.

I'm sorry but this sin't accurate at all ^^ No vanilla items were randomly generated. Each and every item variant was premade based on a template and manually named, assigned enchantments and saved as a separate item. Sadly it's not possible to dynamically generate items with random properties in Skyrim. It's possible to premake all variants and put them in a random loot list (which is what vanilla items do) but nothing more.

[lordescobar666]

 

In my opinion, it would be awesome if restraints could work like the regular ingame weapons and armors do: they are being generated randomly. It would require a huge effort to create the basic system for this, but after that, adding new content would be much easier.

I'm sorry but this sin't accurate at all ^^ No vanilla items were randomly generated. Each and every item variant was premade based on a template and manually named, assigned enchantments and saved as a separate item. Sadly it's not possible to dynamically generate items with random properties in Skyrim. It's possible to premake all variants and put them in a random loot list (which is what vanilla items do) but nothing more.

 

 

Actually there are some limited means to generate some (pseudo) random items. SKSE provides means to dynamically attach enchantments to items (similar to Player generated enchantments). Theoretically it should be possible to randomdly generate some enchantments and attach them to some items.

[Min]

 

 

In my opinion, it would be awesome if restraints could work like the regular ingame weapons and armors do: they are being generated randomly. It would require a huge effort to create the basic system for this, but after that, adding new content would be much easier.

I'm sorry but this sin't accurate at all ^^ No vanilla items were randomly generated. Each and every item variant was premade based on a template and manually named, assigned enchantments and saved as a separate item. Sadly it's not possible to dynamically generate items with random properties in Skyrim. It's possible to premake all variants and put them in a random loot list (which is what vanilla items do) but nothing more.

 

 

Actually there are some limited means to generate some (pseudo) random items. SKSE provides means to dynamically attach enchantments to items (similar to Player generated enchantments). Theoretically it should be possible to randomdly generate some enchantments and attach them to some items.

Sure. That's not what Skyrim does, though (Which OP stated).

 

Pretty much all of these ideas can be implemented with minimal DDi framework changes, since the system is Object Oriented. One would simply need to extend the base script to create most of this behavior.  See https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/Device-Customization for details.

[serenad3]

No idea how feasible it is since I know nothing about modding but oh man I love the concept behind it.

[monsta88]

Thank you all for answering. I honestly had no idea that Skyrim just has a huge-ass list of weapons and armor and that's it. It just boggles the mind.

 

I also didn't expect that these could be actually implemented without major problems/challenges. Do I understand right, that the modder would need to create a really huge list of restraints, which would contain all type, material, lock and color variations (with the exception of the enchantments, which can be randomly applied from another list)? And when the player finds a restraint, the scripts would just select one from this list.

 

Peace,

M

[eggsalad]

I really like the idea of the key to the restraint being generated when the restraint is equipped. The current system assumes that you'll have FtM installed, which works fine with Cursed Loot or LADL, where the devices are just an inconvenience that you need to find some way to get rid of. But for some other mods, it would add a lot to the experience if keys were unique. For player slavery mods, devices like chastity belts and collars could serve as a way to bind you to your master, since only they have the key. Or for the mods that let bandits equip devices on you, it would become your #1 priority to find them, and 1. kill them, 2. pickpocket them, or 3. attempt to "negotiate" with them. Of course, this requires the alternative ways to get out to be hard enough that they'll only be a last resort. I like your idea of varying difficulties here. If you just got unlucky enough to get tied up by some common bandits, it shouldn't be that hard to get out if you can just make it safely to a town and find some help. But if you escape from a cruel master who paid a lot of money to restrict your freedom, you should have a really hard time claiming total freedom again.

 

I kinda doubt that you can just generate unique keys on the spot, though. But technically, you don't need to. All you have to do is take away all other options from which you can acquire keys, making it so the only key you'll ever acquire is the one you get when you put on the device (or that the NPC gets when they put the device on you). This just requires that there's a seperate key for each slot, so that you can't get out of your collar by putting on cuffs and generating a restraint key. If you need a collar key and the only way to make a new one is to put on a collar, you obviously won't be able to get a new one if you're already wearing a collar. For a little bit of extra realism, instead of generating the key when equipping on yourself, you'd obtain the device and key as a set. Say you want to buy a chastity belt at Captured Dreams, you'd just get the key with it when you buy. The transaction would trigger a script that checks if you're wearing a chastity belt already, and only give you a key if you're not. Could even factor in the submissiveness stat that the mod tracks when deciding if you should get the key (if not, it could get generated in Master's inventory instead).

 

The one problem I see with all this is if you want to equip devices on an NPC instead. For that, you could just add a different set of keys. One set for PC and one set of NPCs. While it would be more realistic, I don't think it would add that much to the gameplay to have one set of keys for Lydia's devices and another set of keys for Aela's devices.

 

I think if it's done this way, it would be relatively easy to implement. But a few different existing mods would need some adjustments. The DD framework would need to add seperate keys for every slot, any mod that lets NPCs add devices to the player would need to add a script that adds the appropriate key to the NPCs inventory, and if going with the more realistic option for player equipped devices, any mod that allows the player to obtain a device needs to give them a key with it. And then there's Cursed Loot, I actually can't think of how to make that one work with this system, I guess they'd either need to find random hiding spots for the keys, or make their devices unique with their own special escape options.

[harakoni]

 

Pick the lock

 

The player can attempt to pick the lock. No penalty for accessible locks (like on the leg), penalties for the problematic ones (The ones she has hard time to reach. Not seeing is not too big problem IMO, since you don't see the insides of the lock anyway).

 

The player should use a slightly modified lockpicking minigame. The modification is that the restraint locks have generally higher difficulty level than the regular game locks and there is also a chance of jamming the lock when trying to open it with a lock pick.

 

Jamming Widget

 

There should be a widget bar indicator on the screen next to the Lockpicking Xp bar. The bar is empty at start (0). If it fills up (100), the lock is jammed. The bar can fill up for 2 reasons:

 

Broken lock pick: Each broken lockpick adds a fixed value to the bar. The value depends on the lock difficulty, it should be somewhere between 20 (easy lock) and 80 (master difficulty lock). So if someone breaks a lock pick on an easy lock, she can try it a few more times without fear of jamming it. On a master lock, there is only 1 chance to open it.

 

Over time: While the player is moving the lockpick, a timer works in the background. After a while, it will increase the Jamming bar by an amount. This feature simulates the small mechanism being manipulated by a metal tool. It gets damaged over time. (Actually it is just to compensate for the unbreakable lock picks, but whatever.) These are small increments, but they happen regularly. Like 1-3 points/second. It is important that this only happens when the player is actually working on the lock (strafe buttons).

 

If the player cancels the lockpicking, the jamming indicator stays on the last level (or resets after x hours).

 

Jammed locks can't be opened, the restraint must be destroyed to escape from it.

 

This is the best part out of the post

[Plumber]

Like many good ideas, this one is too complex.

 

In other words, it's immersive to the point where it completely breaks immersion. You can create a weapon or enchant it in one mouse click, despite the fact that this is not a simple process even by standards of TES-universe. But in the next second you try to open restraints and suddenly there is a lot of factors to think about. You see the problem here?

 

P.S. Sorry, my English is bad.

[DexesTTP]

I love this idea, and some parts don't seem - too - difficult to implement.

 

The material part is just different items. The DDi framework apparently allows us to create "new" types of base restraints and we can just use it to create new materials as new restraints. After that, it's a simple question of browsing the stats you attributed to each item - you can also have custom stats in the mod management menu thingy every mod uses. Seeing how other mods (CD, DCU) handle custom restraints removal, it should be easy to do.

 

The lock picking & jamming part seems the most difficult to implement, mostly because it needs to change the way "basic" lock picking works. However, it is probably possible to hack it without rewriting the whole thing by using your stamina bar as the "jamming" counter and yanking you out of the minigame when it reaches 0 (guards can talk you out of it in vanilla).

 

The key to lock however seems (quite) easy to do, basically we just need an enchantment (e.g. "lock" for the restraint and "key" for the key) and to randomly assign the same magnitude to both (I guess magnitude is capped at 32 767, which is plenty, however I couldn't find any confirmation). This way, you can keep the "common" key as part of the game (with low magnitudes, e.g. 1-5), use a wide range of values as "custom locks" (duplicates don't matter if the range is wide enough) and add a given value to indicate if the lock is jammed/unlocked.

All we need to do is to be able to apply a "custom" enchant with a procedurally generated magnitude to an item, and seeing how the vanilla enchantment system works I think we can do it.

To use numbers, assuming magnitude ranges from -32768 to 32767 :

 - 0 : broken lock (can't close, after Blacksmith breaks it.

 - 1-5 : common keys (1 is an "easy lock" opened by all keys from 1-5, 5 is a "hard" lock opened only by a 5 key)

 - 6-1024, 1025-2048, 2049-3072, etc... : custom keys (A custom lock can only be opened by a custom key with the same magnitude, the range indicates the difficulty level when picking the lock).

We can also imagine to have other enchants types using the same system :

 - jammed common locks (can be "unjammed" by a skilled blacksmith, a skilled thief or a tool).

 - "opened" restraints (you can put them on without locking them and/or carry closed restraints you have to pick/use a key to open)

 - "opened" restraints with key inside (this way we don't separate the key from the "open" restraint & have to carry plenty of random custom keys.)

each enchant keeping the same magnitude the original item had so we don't loose data.

 

I'm entirely new to modding (and kind of a lurker here) so i'll try and implement the basic idea during next week, using mostly swords and keys as base items (I prefer to make a standalone mod as I had difficulties to launch my game if I combine my own .esp with others). I can't guarantee i'll have any results (or I'll even be able to do it), but if I have any i'll be sure to let you know.

 

 

Edit -- I tried to tinker with adding metadata to keys, and it's not going well. Basically I can't find a way to enchant a non-armor/weapon item (goodbye easy idea) and Keywords seems to be linked to values only when dealing with locations (you can't put locations in your inventory).

I'll try a little bit longer to see if I missed any way to add metadatas to base items, but it seems the only way will be to emulate the link or to create one key template by enchant value.

The weapon enchant however works fine, except I've yet to be able to select the enchant let alone modify it (i've seen functions who will enable me to change and get the enchant value quite easily so i don't worry too much about it).

I don't know how the other modders managed to acquire their current level. The doc is sparse and short and the lack of a search button on Bethesda's forums isn't helping either.

[monsta88]

I love this idea, and some parts don't seem - too - difficult to implement.

 

The material part is just different items. The DDi framework apparently allows us to create "new" types of base restraints and we can just use it to create new materials as new restraints. After that, it's a simple question of browsing the stats you attributed to each item - you can also have custom stats in the mod management menu thingy every mod uses. Seeing how other mods (CD, DCU) handle custom restraints removal, it should be easy to do.

 

The lock picking & jamming part seems the most difficult to implement, mostly because it needs to change the way "basic" lock picking works. However, it is probably possible to hack it without rewriting the whole thing by using your stamina bar as the "jamming" counter and yanking you out of the minigame when it reaches 0 (guards can talk you out of it in vanilla).

 

First of all, thanks for spending time on this idea, I really appreciate it.

 

However as people pointed out, every material would mean a different item, created manually. If you add color variants, that will multiply it again. So instead of making less items, my idea would require to make a tons more. Kind of the opposite outcome what I aimed for. And if there are no materials, then the "breaking the restraints" part makes no sense either.

 

If I understood correctly, you are saying that you can (trying) to make the Locks as enchantments, which can be randomly applied to existing restaints. While it would give some variations to the restraints, in itself it has not a huge immersion value (and my goal was to make the restraint system more immersive). I think it would get the required immersion if it is developed in tandem with the Lockpicking idea too.

 

I'm not claiming I understood everyhting you wrote, since I know very little about scripting and even less how things work in Skyrim modding. The testament to this is the OP where I assumed how objects work in Skyrim, and they work entirely differently. On the other hand I have Min's post where he said everything here could be easily implemented into DD, so I assume everything can be developed too. The question is, does it worth it?

 

For example if we create the huge database of every restraint, every material, every color, etc. Then those databases need to be kept in good shape, updated with new materials, variants, remove obsolete ones, etc. Even if the Locks can be tricked to become enchantments (so we don't need to create 5 times more versions of everything because of the locks), it is a huge work.

 

And then there is the game side problem: now a kickass restraint merchant should have all the restraints, but how would that look in the game? The player can browse literally thousands of restraints? I don't think that is a good idea.

 

My point is, I'm really happy that someone actually works on my idea, I just like to ask you to keep in mind the original goal: make the restraints more immersive. The original idea is about adding material to restraints and different locks, and also give new ways to remove them. I'm just not sure anymore that the feature worths the trouble, if the value (more immersion) worth the necessary work (because of the manually created items).

[DexesTTP]

No problem, as I said I'm new to modding and a good idea is all I need to get started - whatever might be the amount of work needed.

 

First of all, I understand that you are not really into modding itself, so I'll give some (personal) definitions of terms I'll use to (i hope) help you grasp what I'll try and explain :

 - A framework : the whole system that allows us to put things into. A good framework in particular makes adding new thing as easy as checking a box.

 - An asset : the models and texture of items. It's the part that is "displayed" in-game. It however isn't the item itself, we need to "teach" the game how to use assets to make items. For example, the "assets" for the chastity belt is the model (structure) of the belt, the colors (textures) on the belt but not the item 'chastity belt' in-game.

 - A hack : a "clever" way to do something that would take lots of work to do otherwise. Let's say I want to put a huge screen as my wallpaper (I mean an actual wallpaper on my wall). I can spend "years" to develop a 1mm wide screen and put it on my wall, or I can just break my wall, replace it with a huge screen and put a wall on the other side. There is no difference from the outside, it does the same thing. There is just an "clever" way and a "hard" way to do it.

 - tl; dr : too long, didn't read. It's a conclusion to each part saying in a few words what must be understood in a hundred.

 

Also, I like to use "we" a lot when I write because it includes whoever might want to work on the mod itself as well as involves the reader. It doesn't necessarily means that I expect any help, it's just the way I write

 

"However as people pointed out, every material would mean a different item, created manually. If you add color variants, that will multiply it again. So instead of making less items, my idea would require to make a tons more. Kind of the opposite outcome what I aimed for.

(...)

For example if we create the huge database of every restraint, every material, every color, etc. Then those databases need to be kept in good shape, updated with new materials, variants, remove obsolete ones, etc."

I'll first address this point, which seems to worry you about both the usefulness and the amount of work needed. 

 

The fact that each and every material and variant of the items must exist was never a doubt for me - after all, every asset combination is needed for the whole choice panel to exist in-game. However, this may be a large amount of work but probably not as huge as you may imagine. The creation part itself for the different materials will be kind of time-consuming (and I definitely am not able to do that yet)  but after this every coloration is just a re-texture of the original mesh texture.

 

We have approximately, based off DDa :

 - a dozen (13) restraints type : 2 belts (open/closed), bra, collar, 3 gags, blindfold, arm cuffs, leg cuffs, arm-binder, wrist cuffs, boots. We can limit the ones we will be working on.

 - 9 variants by item : leather, iron, steel, orc, dwemer, elfic, glass, ebony, daedric  - we don't necessarily have to do every material possible either.

That makes a little more than a hundred (117) types of items. This would look kind of ugly on a single PNJ, but in an (organized) crafting system like a forge it may not look half-bad.

Considering 5 colors by item (white, black, red, green, blue - a reasonable palette), we are talking about 600 items, it may seem like a lot but it is not really that much - given enough time of course.

 

Remember that not all the things we are talking about here need to be in an early version of the mod. We can make first drafts and then if the system works as a whole it should be (relatively) easy to complete it with other material types or restraints types. If we start with just normal belts and bras in 5 material types, we are left with only 10 basic items to create and a whole framework ready for us to add more.

 

Same thing about the updating of the database part. There will be a consequent amount of work to import everything in DDa (and maybe DDx or DCu too) in order to "materialize" them, but we can just limit us and add every "basic" restraint to the right category as soon as DDa or DDx are updated, if we manage to do the right framework. That would allow us to keep an easy compatibility with existing mods without having to add a lot of variants immediately.

 

tl;dr of part 1 : yes, it will be a lot of work but 1-we can do it little by little and 2-Most of it will be a quick task after the whole basis is done.

 

 

 

"And then there is the game side problem: now a kickass restraint merchant should have all the restraints, but how would that look in the game? The player can browse literally thousands of restraints? I don't think that is a good idea."

I agree, having a single merchant selling everything and everything is quite messy. However, we have a lot of options when it comes to organizing items.

 

I talked before about the forge : even if you have a dozen types of swords you can obtain via a forge, it is organized by material. We can just add them to the right tab and voila, we organized it

 

Another solution would be to have different merchants, one for each "category" of items : chastity (belt & bras), gags & blindfolds, light restraints (arms & legs), heavy restraints (armbinders, yokes, boots, etc...). This way the items are sorted in an easy-to understand, easy-to-manipulate manner. And why not using this occasion to personalize these merchants - make them nomad merchants like the Khajit caravans, wandering around Skyrim - or create a secret order of Molag Bal devotes, with a quest series around them. Of course these are secondary ideas.

 

We also don't have to put every taint or variant obtainable through the same means. I think DDx (or was it CD ?) already uses dyes & crafting as a mean to transform existing items into their red, white and/or ebony (= black) version.

 

This way, we would be limited to either 20-30 items by merchant or about a dozen per crafting tab in a forge, in addition to using dyes to change colors and "enchants" to change locking mechanisms - I'll talk more about that just after.

 

tl;dr of part 2 : the organizing part might be quite easy to do if we just create "add-ons" you can easily add to "base" items. We can also split the items into categories, either material or restraints, to make them easier to find.

 

 

"If I understood correctly, you are saying that you can (trying) to make the Locks as enchantments, which can be randomly applied to existing restaints. While it would give some variations to the restraints, in itself it has not a huge immersion value (and my goal was to make the restraint system more immersive). I think it would get the required immersion if it is developed in tandem with the Lockpicking idea too."

Yes and no... Well, mostly no *wink* I got a little bit enthusiastic and technical in my last post, so i'll try to explain the basis of what I meant.

 

At the moment, the lock system is quite straightforward, as you said. Two types of keys (one for belts/bras and one for the rest), and that's it. No lockpicking game, just a random chance.

 

The idea is to revamp that as a whole. We need difficulty levels to open a lock, an easy one should need an "easily obtainable" key or an easy minigame, a master lock should need a 30000 gold key or a lot of luck, full perks in Lockpicking taken and the skeleton key in your pocket.

The problem is to create these difficulty levels without creating too many items buyable in the world. We don't want to create five times more versions of everything just to add difficulty level. The easiest way is therefore to add enchants as a hack for lock difficulty.

 

What does it means, concretely ? Well, it means that you can put different lock on the same item, and on my end I don't have to create a thousand versions of this item.

 

"But", you'll say, "I don't want to just enchant my belt and get a lock, it's not immersive".

That's why I am talking about a hack. The idea is that we won't have an actual enchant you can put on things In-game with an enchanting table and make them locked or whatever. Instead, we have another machine (e.g. a "lock maker") that we will use, which will only allow to put a "lock" on a restraint by choosing our type of lock difficulty.

 

To put things another way, the system behind the lock will be an enchant : there will be an enchant called "lock" in the mod files, and we will put it on the restraints to be able to know what is their lock difficulty. However, the user will just see "Chastity belt" and below "Master lock", and he must use another machine (lock maker) to choose the difficulty of the lock on the items he creates. He won't be able to disenchant a belt or to put the "Lock" enchant on another item, for him there won't ever be a "lock" enchant.

 

The last part of what I talked about was for "unique" keys. Let's say Master from CD or my current kidnapper in SD+ wants to put a collar on me. Should I be able to remove it with the first key I find ? Of course not. I have to either break the collar, pick its lock or steal the key from them.

The main problem with this is that I have to create a key in the database of items each time I want to have a unique lock. It's simply not doable to create an item for every bandit out there, so I imagined using a value stored in a enchantment to "identify" an unique lock and "link" it to the corresponding unique key. I however had difficulty on the key side, so for now i'll let this idea alone.

 

Finally, the lock-picking idea is still planned. I briefly mentioned a way to do it easily (using the stamina bar as a fail counter/timer), and for now i'll stick to this idea. It will take time and scripting to get a result but I'm quite confident it's doable without having to redo the entire lock-picking system.

 

tl;dr of part 3 : enchanting is just the "hidden" way things will work, we won't use an enchanting table to put locks on things. Also, the lock-picking idea is planned.

 

"My point is, I'm really happy that someone actually works on my idea, I just like to ask you to keep in mind the original goal: make the restraints more immersive. The original idea is about adding material to restraints and different locks, and also give new ways to remove them. I'm just not sure anymore that the feature worths the trouble, if the value (more immersion) worth the necessary work (because of the manually created items)

The question is, does it worth it?"

Well, I may have said that it won't be a huge amount of work but I kinda lied. It will take time, a lot of it. I intend to spend at least a few hours making drafts (not even "modding" per say) and framework work on each and every features, several dozens on the whole material creation thing and maybe a few more on minor details.

 

The good news is that I'm confident I can do it. I had occasions to create whole systems from nothing before (not in modding as I said, but in general programming), huge databases don't frighten me (I had to deal with these before too) and i really need something to start with on Skyrim (and general Papyrus & Zenimax systems things). I also have some free time I can use for this project. And finally, I never said I'll be able to do everything. My aim at the moment is to create a reliable and easy framework for the mod (or more probably to load up the one Min created in DDi and rework the parts that we should use, to maintain compatibility with most other mods) , add some of the materials and restraints to it and try wrap up an early draft as soon as possible.

 

Finally, there is no results without hard work. Without the amazing jobs some of the big and small names on this forum have done, without the humongous work guys at Bethesda made, we wouldn't even have the privilege of playing 'Devious' Skyrim altogether. If we manage to finish this mod, or if we make a draft and stop there, and even one person uses it and enjoys it, I'd say it's worth it.

 

 

Feel free to ask for any clarifications of what I said, and to propose other ideas - after all the initial draft was yours - or remarks you may have. I hope I didn't mess up my explanations too much.

 

Have a nice day,

~DT.

 

 

edit : If any modder have an idea on how to add metadata to a key or knows a mod that allows to do it, can you please PM me ? I'm stuck !

[Min]

The easiest way to accomplish this from an implementation point of view, would be to add a couple new properties to the base equip script.
 Handling locks as enchantements offers little benefit (And actually serves to increase complexity significantly, particularly in the case of NPC's). I would probably use StorageUtil to store your metadata on the key itself.

scriptName myEquipScript extends zadEquipScript
 
Integer Property keyCode Auto
Integer Property material Auto ; // Use an integer value to represent the material type. This wouldn't handle visual appearance, however.

From there, you would want to extend the various interaction routines. Again, see https://github.com/DeviousDevices/Docs/wiki/Device-Customization for more information. You would want to extend DeviceMenuRemoveWithKey, specifically.

 

That said, I think you're -seriously- underestimating how much work this would be, overall. The texture work alone for alternative material types / color-set combinations (Not to mention record creation) would take an immense amount of time. Skyrim is an extremely primitive platform. Most of the programming paradigm's you're familiar with simply will not translate in to Papyrus. I would probably drop the alternative materials idea entirely, and focus your efforts on the other features. Modifying the key system is quite doable (And not very hard).

 

If you're serious about the idea, feel free to clone the DDi repo to work on your changes. If they pan out in an interesting / fun manner, we may merge them in to Integration proper for a future release (Or, adopt components from your implementation at least).

 

 

[DexesTTP]

Thank you for your answer, it means a lot to me !

I briefly peeked through the DD documentation a few days ago, not really knowing what to focus on and planning to go through it thoroughly later. By linking me directly what resources to use I think I can try right away (in a few minutes for me) to directly implement my drafts onto DDi instead of working from nothing.

Before trying to write the full lock, key and lockpicking system I'll tinker a bit to see what is doable and what is not with Papyrus and the PapyrusUtil extension (by the way, as I already had it installed I assume it is included in either DDi or SexLab ?), and try to finish the proof of concept by the end of the week.

 

About the whole retexture and remodel thing, I understood that it really will be a large amount of work, in terms of hours. That's why my first approach would be to make it bits by bits and to add them when they are ready. However, I think that creating proof of concept for this system on a few restraints (I thought about maybe just the belts) to be able to test some categories ans implement basic material properties (harder to pick / break / use magic on) would be not "too" time-consuming and a good starting point. I don't mind spending several months working (slowly) on the whole project, though, assuming I don't burn out in the meantime. But first I'll focus on the lock & key system as you suggested.

 

Again, I can't guarantee that I'll manage to achieve anything. All I can promise is to try and do things, and hope they work. I however accept gladly your offer to work directly on DDi (I'll clone it and implement on it if my drafts work).

 

Thanks again,

~DT.

 

(edit - just wanted to say : I just opened zadRestraintScript and I guess I'll have a reaaally good time working with Papyrus !)

[monsta88]

Hi again, I'll try to write a short post this time.

 

I'm familiar with how game systems work, I'm just not familiar about this one and simply don't have the necessary time to dive into it. I don't like to do things half assed, so I either fully commit myself or don't touch it at all. That being said I could learn how to script in this language, but I don't have the sctructured thinking necessary to programming, so I don't even attempt it. My scripts would work, but a real programmer could do the same in 1/3 amount time, 1/3 amount of lines and it would work better.

 

A few words on topik too: Let's ignore the materials for now, to me it seems like the more problematic part (amount of work-wise).

 

I think the most important question is, how to make different difficulty locks and not multiply the restraints at the same time. The enchantments seems like a good idea. However there is still the question of the keys.

 

If we do have say, 5 Lock Enchantments (5 difficulty levels), then it would be logical to have 5 different type of keys to open them. However with this we just made the system more complicated while we didn't really add to the immersion.

 

It is logical that certain restraints have similar locks, for example the Devious Regulations mod Chastity Belts must have the same locks, so the military chirurgeons can remove them if needed. Also, restraint sets can have the same key, nobody wants to carry 15 different keys and fiddle with them for minutes to find which key opens which lock. Probably there are other good examples.

 

The other end of the immersion is when every lock has 1 key, since that would be the most logical. For example in RL when you go and buy a lock for your door, you definitely want a unique one, you don't want the possibility that others have the same lock with the same keys. At the same time, this is not really doable in the game, since it would lead to a huge amount of keys, which would need to be properly named to know what they open, etc. I don't think anyone would want to open the key tab and see dozens of different keys there.

 

I feel I would just need one good idea to solve this, how to make unique keys for each restraint without flooding the game with keys. I think it would give a lot to the immersion, when the merchant sells you a Chastity Belt and says: "Here is the only key for it, don't lose it!" Atm they don't even sell keys, because there is no need for it.

 

Just an idea, it came to me right now: How about handling keys as flags on the given restraint? The key would not appear in the inventory as a separate item. It would be noted only on the item description (maybe not flag, but an enchantment?).

Flags:

- Do you have a key for it? Yes/No  - if yes, clicking on the restraint would give the usual open with key dialog.

- Is the key craftable? Yes/No  - if yes, you can craft a key if you have the necesary skill/resources. Crafting won't give you the item, just sets the 1st flag to yes.

- Is the lock jammed? Yes/No - while not strictly a key flag, it has an important impact on it.

 

I don't know what would be the case with 2 similar restraints though. For example 2 Learher Arm Bands. Can they have different flags? Can you have key for only one of them?

 

(trying to be short, yeah)

 

One more thing about Lockpicking. You mentioned using Stamina, maybe we are thinking about the same, but maybe not. You should check out SexLab Wear and Tear. It uses the exact widgets I envisioned for this. The wear and tear widgets increase after sex and decrease over time. So if you can link these widgets to the Lockpicking minigame, then the basic system is done.

 

Oh and it is a good idea to give a way to the player to unjam the locks, I thought about it myself too. Locksmith NPC could unjam the locks or Alternation mages.

 

Anyway, too long again. Thanks for the efforts again,

 

[DexesTTP]

Hi,

 

I agree, the whole point of this mod would be to add a "realistic" feel to the restraints system without killing all the fun in using them.

 

At the moment, I'm considering having five levels of "normal" keys, used for restraints such as the ones in Cursed Loot, as well as a "special" key template who can be linked to a specific restraint / several specific restraints as a whole, used for crafted, bought and given restraints.

 

Just so you know, there is already a method to link a restraint instance (e.g. "rusted iron chastity belt") to a specific (mod-created) key in DDi. There's also a flag to identify the "jammed locks".

>Key Property deviceKey  Auto               ; Key type to unlock this device

>Bool Property JammedLock = False Auto      ; Is the lock currently jammed?

That's the way restraints, chastity and piercing keys are handled, and I believe CD uses it to make sure the player doesn't remove Master's restraints. The challenge is to allow us to link a specific restraint (e.g. one specific "padded iron belt" among others) to a key among others.

 

To be fair, I'm not yet sure if it is possible at all as I don't know for sure if modified script properties are treated instance-wise or class-wise (it's the first thing on my test list). If it's the latter, i'll have to look into StorageUtils more closely, and then back to the original enchant idea. If however it's the former, then I'll just have to write a few hundred well-found code lines and cry on the mountain of bugs I'll probably end up with

 

I think the idea of "flagging" the restraints to know if you have the key or not would be detrimental to the immersion feeling. However, we can just have the belt being flagged "key in" when you put the key on, and be able to "no key in" it and retrieve the key. This way, you won't be spammed with hundreds of keys for open restraints but you'll keep in-game keys for "closed" ones.

 

 

Finally, yes we were thinking about the same thing about the jamming indicator. However, I don't know yet if this method is viable. I learned that the Lockpick mini-game, as well as all other in-game menus, uses Flash. I've never tinkered with Flash nor ActionScript before, so i'll have to make some experiments and learn a bit more before trying to use it. I also searched in the APropos files about the widget thing, but couldn't find a single reference (it's quite possible you have to do it from the game files or that it uses another mod to display it).

 

 

About the development itself, I had some difficulties setting up my Skyrim folder to be able to edit mods, finding all the script files especially have been difficult. I have only be able to compile my first script a few hours ago, and I'm not yet sure what is doable and what isn't. However, if I don't run into other problems, I should have finished a first draft by the end of the week-end, hopefully with a viable implementation of special keys.

 

I'll come back as soon as I have news. In the meantime, if you have any final decision on what is the best way to make an "immersive" key system without removing the fun, go ahead

~DT

[Blackness blackness is...]

all i can say is do everything you can to increase the immersive aspect. 

[DexesTTP]

Hi again, some updates.

 

I implemented the key system. The basic functionality is there, meaning each restraint is linked to an unique key. The system handles matching the same key to several restraints (a set) and you can "put" the key in the lock, so you don't have it in your inventory. However, I had difficulties both finding the right key to remove when opening the lock and making the dialog box only display "Unlock" if you have the correct key in your inventory. I don't yet know if this will be possible at all.

 

I also searched a little more about the custom lockpicking screen. It seems I might be able to create it as soon as I focus on learning Flash, at least in theory. To preserve compatibility with other mods, this might not be the solution. A single custom animation can be launched at once, and I believe most modders use an already created interface to add their widgets to the screen - maybe SkyUI, maybe something else. I'll look into it as soon as I have time.

 

Also, I haven't had much time this week to focus on learning to mod Skyrim, and it probably won't be better next week (I thought I'd be free for a few months but things happened). I'll try to do some things here and there and if I finish anything I'll post an update here.

 

Bye,

~DT.