[F:NV] Headgear and face morphs

[Tefnacht]

This whole thing might possibly be answered with a simple: "Nyet, not possible" and I have been chasing ghosts all this time.

 

The source of my current frustration is headgear (like glasses, masks, piercings, gags, etc.) and my complete inability to take face morphs into account while making them. I have tried so many different things to make it work but never got anywhere.

 

Ultimately, I always end up adjusting the item mesh to my characters face by trial end error: Adjust mesh in blender, export, do some minor NifSkope-ing, run game, take screenshots of problem areas, go back to blender, adjust, rinse, repeat. What. A. Headache.

 

... and even if I get the mesh to look satisfactory on my characters idle face, then I shoot someone, the VATS camera kicks in, I see a closeup of my girl making the "grrrrr" face and her chin, cheeks and nose clip through everything. In slow-motion. YUCK!

 

So, I need some help here.

 

Is there a way to make non-hair meshes adapt to face morphs? Just the "simple" face generator morphing of the head mesh? Or even the dynamic facial expression morphs? I cannot get any of that to work.

 

Here are some things that I "think" I know:

 

- This has something to do with .egm (head morph) and .tri (expression morph) files.

- Morph-able head items are not weighted to the skeleton.

- Head item vertices are positioned relative to the head-mesh "zero" position.

- Head items need the special "MODD - FaceGen Model Flags" set to 1 (done with FNVEdit)

- .egm morph files only work from inside BSA files, not loose.

- "The Conformulator" program is the only program that can create the .egm and .tri files

 

That ... probably covers it. I have tried so many different approaches, I don't even know what to try anymore. I either crash my game or the mesh remains static.

 

..

 

For the sake of this discussion, lets say I want to create a lower-lip piercing. A very simple torus mesh, intersecting the lower lip of the female head mesh. I want the thing to adjust its position in accordance with the characters face morph. BIG bonus points if that mesh could also follow expression morphs.

 

Is this even possible or does the game engine simply not support this?

 

 

 

I will be very grateful for any input and: Happy New Year to all of you!

[A.J.]

forgetting about the morphs right now: if you make on character creation a huge head, like with huge cheeks etc. do your equipment adapts to it in a fine way?

[Tefnacht]

No. I cannot get that to work. All headgear I made so far stubbornly remains the same shape and does not adapt to head shape changes in the character editor at all.

 

The conformulated .egm file does not seem to make any difference.

[A.J.]

That should be the only trick to do, using conformulator to create the new EGM for your nif. I do know conformulator doesn't want your nif but wants the OBJ file, so you need first to export it via nifskope. Then as TRI file it wants the should use the head tri. And then I don't think there's much more to do, maybe just tweaking with the few parameters on bottom. It's a long time I don't play around with these, this is just what I remember so far

[Tefnacht]

Odd. That is pretty much what I do. I must be going wrong somewhere, this is my current workflow:

 

1) Import head into blender, delete armature, move head mesh to 0/0/0 position

2) Model headgear item to match head

3) Export to nif

4) Open with NifSkope, export NiTriStrips branch as .obj

5) Conformulate headgear .obj with head .tri to get .egm (Nearest Face, no falloff, do not generate .tri)

6) Store headgear .nif and .egm in same location with same file name (meshes/armor/mystuff/)

7) Make item in Geck, give it a slot (like earring), save .esp plugin

8) Open plugin with FNVEdit and set the items FaceGen Model Flag to 1 (Head)

9) Start game, equip item, watch in horror at all the clipping

 

Any suggestions where I make a mistake? Some tutorials say the .egm and .nif need to be stored in a BSA archive but that doesn't seem to make a difference either.

[A.J.]

awww you're right, I remember a user saying something about EGM inside BSA, concerning hair, but I can't find that post anymore. If he pops here maybe he could remind me what was the trick, maybe it's exactly the answer you need.

 

By the way, take a look at this, it's a different case but take a look at 6th post, that guy says he was missing a step. I assume the step he misses is the number 13 here. want to give a try?

[Tefnacht]

Thanks. I'll give it a try.

 

I believe that step 13 (characters -> update facegen model availability) is what I do with FNVEdit when I set the FaceGen Model Flag but it definitely couldn't hurt to try to do it with the GECK. Maybe there is more going on behind the scenes

 

Step 5 also says to export the root node as .obj instead of the NiTriStrips branch, so that is another thing I'll try.

 

Thanks again. Maybe this is what I do wrong. Will report back.

[A.J.]

Oh yes please, tell me if you find the answer, it's something I need to go back in the next weeks

[t3589]

Don't quote me on this because I know very little about this.  But when I was doing research for the masks, I distinctly remember that the morphs have to be inside a bsa to work.  However, I also remember something about head morphs not working at all for FNV unless they're hairs.  ie. masks won't morph unless they're hairs.  Or something to that effect.

[Guest luthienanarion]

 

 

I believe that step 13 (characters -> update facegen model availability) is what I do with FNVEdit when I set the FaceGen Model Flag but it definitely couldn't hurt to try to do it with the GECK.

Actually, that will break every headgear item in the game; it doesn't detect the EGM files in the NV GECK and will just strip the FaceGen Model flags from everything. It's actually worse to use than the 'Compile All Scripts' button.

[Tefnacht]

Happy New Year 2015, everyone.

 

Actually, that will break every headgear item in the game; it doesn't detect the EGM files in the NV GECK and will just strip the FaceGen Model flags from everything. It's actually worse to use than the 'Compile All Scripts' button.

I can now, after trying it myself, confirm this first hand. All I got out of the "Update FaceGen model availability" button in the New Vegas GECK is a plugin with copies of all the vanilla headgear with their MODD - FaceGen flags stripped away.

The GECK didn't even have the courtesy to add the flag to my own headgear while messing up everything else. So, yeah, that doesn't work. At least I learned about another button in the GECK to stay the hell away from

 

Exporting the .obj with NifSkope from the root node or the NiTriStrips branch of the Nif file doesn't make a difference either. I actually ran the two resulting .obj files through a byte-by-byte comparison and they're completely identical. *shrugs*

 

..

 

My little "experiment" with the Update FaceGen button at least gave me a list of all vanilla headgear that has EGM files. So I took a look at those. For the first time actually, rather silly I didn't do that sooner.

I ran some testing with the White Glove Society mask. The. Horror. The EGM obviously does "something" in this case but it certainly isn't pretty.

 

 

Another thing I noticed is that this vanilla mask Nif file isn't set up like a "normal" headgear model. It is actually weighted to the skeletons Bip01 Head armature like common armor. What did Obsidian do there?!?

 

Well, I am stumped. It looks more and more like this really only works with hair. But I'll keep trying. Any and all input still very welcome.

[A.J.]

Other things like full masks are weighted to more nodes (shoulders, spine2) like an armor, and they can't have a EGM for this reason, so they use the Head slot and they don't have the problem with the morphs. But I remember I've read that hats/helmets HAD to be weighted 100% to a single node (Bip01 Head) and that was allowing the EGM to work for them.

 

Are you sure it's different than the past, like Oblivion? I have no other experience than NV.

[Tefnacht]

I am not sure of anything, to be honest.

 

All headgear I made so far was never weighted to anything at all, the skeleton was never involved. The game just takes the mesh and draws it relative to the head mesh position and orientation.

 

Weighted headgear has to be in a completely different position than the "normal" headgear I am used to, it has to be "up there" where the head is on common armor, rather than being located close to 0/0/0 in the editor.

 

What a mess.

[A.J.]

That's the same reason why I don't risk too much, when commenting this thread. I just write assumptions and what I've read so far. Because, in my opinion, there's no proper infos and tutorials about it, around. One year ago I was asking for help about hats and I didn't receive any answers. I think there's not a ton of people who realized how to do them hats properly. Everytime I look for infos on the net I always find very few old things, old threads of the big ol' ones like Scanti or Throttlekitty, usually for Oblivion, and sometimes Kikai on FO3.

 

I did manage to make a bunch of works on my own in the past, for NV, but I can't tell you exactly what I did because I was almost at the begin and I was randomly trying things without really understand what I was doing. One thing I remember: I did "Update Tangent" on nifskope because I had a problem with some misalignment of the hat.

 

If you figure a proper and rational procedure and write down a proper tutorial, you have all my love and esteem. As I said I should do tons of works which involve that knowledge in the next months. I'll help you in any way I can if you go for that path, like... capturing screenshots and commenting things in a bad english etc.etc.

[t3589]

While working for eight straight days, researching and testing things trying to get my masks to morph, sifting through obscure posts in countless forums on the subject, I finally came to this conclusion.

 

That A. this sort of thing just isn't my bag...  But also B. That for the masks to morph they would have to be included as part of the hair, and every variation thereof.  At which point I cried a little over the time and effort wasted.

 

I too couldn't get past why/how the vanilla items work, and these others didn't.  But as far as I can recall it was an FNV specific issue.

 

[A.J.]

I agree with A, I mean, for me too, I feel it's not really my job. But I wouldn't feel to agree on B: for what I know, other head parts as mouth and eyes have standalone egms and they morph on their own, also vanilla hats. I just think there's something we all miss.

[Tefnacht]

There is definitely something we are all missing.

 

I just had an accidental breakthrough. I actually managed to make a morphing mask. A.J. asked for a tutorial and I decided to write one, to allow more knowledgeable people to point out my error and why my shit doesn't work. I started from scratch ... and I ended up with my shit working!

 

Sometimes I really hate modding.

 

This isn't a tutorial, this is just me looking at my results in disbelief.

 

I decided to work on the White Glove Society mask. So I imported the mask and the female head, I opened the masks mouth, deleted the head-strap, remodeled the chin ... and I ended up with this:

Then I deleted the head mesh and exported the mask. I opened the exported Nif with NifSkope and exported the root as .obj.

I created a new plugin for the mask ... and did a lot of testing with different shaders and slots.

Finally, I decided to run with the headband slot and conformulated the mesh, creating the EGM file.

Then I loaded my plugin into FNVEdit and set the MODD - FaceGen flag

... and started the game. And it fucking worked!

 

I really don't know why or how.

[A.J.]

I love you.

 

I'll make some tries on my own and if I'll have issues I'll try to contact you...

[Tefnacht]

This whole thing is really driving me nuts.

 

Ever since my accidental success a couple days ago I tried to replicate this for other meshes and it just doesn't work. I am seriously very close to going insane over this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

I get meshes that refuse to render, I get meshes that refuse to morph, I get meshes that morph all over the place and fuck you, consistency! Doing the exact same thing with two different meshes results in totally different outcomes ...

 

I need a break.

[t3589]

This whole thing is really driving me nuts.

 

Ever since my accidental success a couple days ago I tried to replicate this for other meshes and it just doesn't work. I am seriously very close to going insane over this. It doesn't make any sense at all.

 

I get meshes that refuse to render, I get meshes that refuse to morph, I get meshes that morph all over the place and fuck you, consistency! Doing the exact same thing with two different meshes results in totally different outcomes ...

 

I need a break.

 

lol I feel your pain.  Exactly what I went through.  I never did figure out what was so different about the vanilla mask mesh that made it behave.  According to my flawed reasoning, if you make your mesh the same in all respects as the vanilla mesh, it should just work.  But the game highly disagrees.

[Tefnacht]

I just managed to identify a pitfall in my morph-able headgear creation process that is, in hindsight, quite hilarious.

 

The problem I had with some headgear meshes was that, seemingly at random, the mesh would end up "crushed" and "crumpled" while free floating around at the edge of the screen, changing location as the third-person camera angle changes.

 

Of course I blamed the EGM I conformulated. Turns out, the actual cause is the SF_Skinned shader flag of the meshes BSShaderPPLightingProperty block, which only makes sense (in hindsight) since the headgear mesh is NOT skinned/rigged to the skeleton. Quite an embarrassing mistake on my part, really

 

Here is an image where I demonstrate the pitfall in action with Grahams head wrapping:

 

 

Who would expect a shader setting to interfere. Tsk. Well, the more you know

[A.J.]

wondrous, thanx for sharing this

 

If you want to laugh... I had that exact issue last year, but if I remember well it was the exact contrary: I wasn't putting Skinned on a outfit part and that part was floating exactly like your mask... sound funny.

Oh and the funniest was the leg: if I was giving that outfit to my follower and she was wearing it, MY leg was starting to raise, like the birds, you know, like a crane bird. Absurd.

[labrat]

To edit the .tri file you can always use Deedes/Kapaer's TriFileEdit scripts for blender (on the Nexus).

http://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas/mods/55388

 

Any head modifying in FONV that displaces vertices is bloody-minded pain. The worst part of this little experiment was removing the human ears

 

[Tefnacht]

Very cool. Thank you Labrat. I'll make sure to check it out in depth. So far the whole .tri file thing is utter black magic to me but that Blender script looks very promising indeed.

 

It would be awesome to have headgear that dynamically morphs with a characters facial expressions or while they are speaking. It might be possible after all