Another one bites the Dust

[Surenas]

You will. When the last BitTorrent tracker is gone, you will...

On that day we'll see nothing but stuff brought into line like kumbaya, my lord on Youtube, of course first after the mandatory 30 sec product advertisement.

[prideslayer]

You will. When the last BitTorrent tracker is gone' date=' you will...

On that day we'll see nothing but stuff brought into line like [i']kumbaya, my lord [/i]on Youtube, of course first after the mandatory 30 sec product advertisement.

 

I've been in this game long enough to recognize BS (or 'fearmongering') when I smell it. Internet censorship never works, never has. You can remove every torrent tracker on earth and torrents will still work fine, the protocol does not need (or even use) them for anything. Other avenues will remain as well, and new ones will present themselves.

 

All that's happening is sites that had little to no control over their content, and no attempts at copyright protection, are going away. More mainstream sites that don't do most of the things listed in the megaupload indictment still exist, and are not in any way at risk.

 

 

[Surenas]

Little or no control? Yes, the major torrent sites have no control over their content, that's why they fade away, one by one, the bigger ones first... really, or are there other reasons, hmm?

You're still living in the past, I guess. There was a worldwide cesura in winter 2009/2010 as every Nexarian knows. And now we have to taste the first bitter results. That has nothing to to with fear, I'm the last to show fear (those who recall my name know that), but much with a change in time. Well, it's up to you to realize the change or not. It has no impact on the course of events. And that is the true problem we have to face right now.

[prideslayer]

Little or no control? Yes' date=' the major sites have no control over their content, that's why they fade away, one by one, the bigger ones first...

[/quote']

 

Sourceforge and github are both still there. So is nexus.

 

You're still living in the past, I guess. There was a worldwide cesura in winter 2009/2010 as every Nexarian knows. And now we have to see the first results.

 

I'm not a "nexarian" and have no idea what a "cesura" is.

 

That has nothing to to with fear, I'm the last to show fear (those who recall my name know that), but much with a change in time. Well, it's up to you to realize the change or not. It has no impact on the course of events. And that is the true problem we have to face right now.

 

If you're not Confucius or Yoda, you probably shouldn't speak in riddles. Plenty are showing "fear" on the subject, a bunch of chicken little's claiming that the (modding) sky is falling, and this time, it's for real!

 

Modding will continue. File sharing will continue. Even piracy will continue. There isn't a force that can stop them.

[gregathit]

As prideslayer stated file sharing is here to stay. While governments may curtail it for a brief time by seizing sites like megaupload and perhaps torrent sites in the future, another venue will crop up.

 

If you need a real world example just look at Napster. When the gov took them down sure mp3 sharing took a huge hit but returned shortly there after in a huge way. It is all just a waste of resources and time as far as the gov is concerned, they are just too stupid and old fashioned to realize it.

[Surenas]

A cesura is a cut, after that things have changed, often totally.

I sense much hope in you. That's okay, for it'd keep you alive in the modding scene.

Though the scene of today isn't any longer the scene of 2009 and before - that is all I have to tell you. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

 

[prideslayer]

A cesura is a cut' date=' after that things have changed, often totally.

I sense much hope in you. That's okay, for it'd keep you alive in the modding scene.

Though the scene of today isn't any longer the scene of 2009 and before - that is all I have to tell you. Take it or leave it. I don't care.

 

[/quote']

 

It's not the scene of 1990 either, what's your point?

 

The day the last FTP server, usenet server, website, torrent tracker, and hell even broadband connection disappears -- I will still be able to mail you a CD/DVD/Bluray. In the old days we used QIC-80 tapes; mail was faster than dialup.

[GSBmodders]

It's not the scene of 1990 either' date=' what's your point?

 

The day the last FTP server, usenet server, website, torrent tracker, and hell even broadband connection disappears -- I will still be able to mail you a CD/DVD/Bluray. In the old days we used QIC-80 tapes; mail was faster than dialup.

[/quote']

 

I remember trading through the classifieds of tech paper's, and computer expo's were almost more popular for the software then any of the over priced hardware.

 

those days are long dead though and i do not see them returning if anything more sites will move to using Russian and Chinese servers to host there forums and files and restrict forum access to memberships that are based on invites and limited in the number of user accounts accepted

 

[Guest Donkey]

those days are long dead though and i do not see them returning if anything more sites will move to using Russian and Chinese servers to host there forums and files and restrict forum access to memberships that are based on invites and limited in the number of user accounts accepted

 

Actually think about it this isn't too bad. At least you have a way of keeping the spammers and trolls out to bare minimum.

[prideslayer]

It's not the scene of 1990 either' date=' what's your point?

 

The day the last FTP server, usenet server, website, torrent tracker, and hell even broadband connection disappears -- I will still be able to mail you a CD/DVD/Bluray. In the old days we used QIC-80 tapes; mail was faster than dialup.

[/quote']

 

I remember trading through the classifieds of tech paper's, and computer expo's were almost more popular for the software then any of the over priced hardware.

 

those days are long dead though and i do not see them returning if anything more sites will move to using Russian and Chinese servers to host there forums and files and restrict forum access to memberships that are based on invites and limited in the number of user accounts accepted

 

 

They won't return quickly, but if there is no other option, they will return. I don't see it happening though period. There are plenty of filesharing sites still available that are not changing operations or at risk for being shut down.

 

I never used the newspaper to look for software or hardware, it was all local BBS advertisements and computer shopper for me.

[labrat]

You have to admire some people's unfailing optimism and bonhomie don't you.

 

Of course, they're quite right. Any decent arms race is a to and fro match with one side claiming the upper hand for a while which in turn encourages their opponents to find a way to circumvent the inconveniences. Long may the Trespassers flourish.

 

Denying that there is an battle going on is, however, (I'll put this as kindly as possible), dumb. Those bangs are not fireworks and launching attacks on those who say that the noise of gunfire is getting closer is behaviour more traditionally associated with poultry (i.e. ostriches).

 

Unfortunately, wars, however protracted, tend to have an end. Usually with a winner and a loser. (Generally both have lost, but out of courtesy the one who still has flags flying is called the winner).

 

The winner often gets to rewrite the rulebook.

 

At this point it is usually considered too late to choose sides.

 

On a general point. Being offensive does not tend to make your argument any stronger, however satisfying it may be in the short term.

 

@Prideslayer. You seem to have an issue with IPR in particular. Have you had a bad experience you'd like to share? I make my modest living from the sale of my creative output, and have never worried about lost revenue due to piracy, (and I have had works used without permission). I suspect that I may be better known in China than Europe, 'though that's not saying much

 

There isn't a force that can stop them.

I hope that that is true, but a) You don't appear to have the slightest idea of the forces marshalled against the "free" internet I don't have to think particularily deeply before realising that the internet, for all its size and apparent complexity is remarkably vulnerable to centralised control if (and it is I grant you a big if) the Powers That Be can introduce legislation and turn public opinion in favour of ending online anonymity and privacy.

 

 

(If anyone has difficulty with the polysyllabics (big words) let me know and I'll get the thesaurus out )

[prideslayer]

@Prideslayer. You seem to have an issue with IPR in particular. Have you had a bad experience you'd like to share? I make my modest living from the sale of my creative output' date=' and have never worried about lost revenue due to piracy, (and I have had works used without permission). I suspect that I may be better known in China than Europe, 'though that's not saying much

[/quote']

 

No bad experience here, not in the way you mean anyway. I'm a strong supporter of IP rights (if that is what you mean by IPR) in general, and a vocal one. The "other side" shouldn't get all the vocal ones, right? Same goes for property rights, free markets, and so on.

 

I'm mildly concerned with lost revenue. More concerned about the growing acceptance of violating the rights of others, which in this case strikes at the very heart of contract law, which our modern society is based upon.

 

If I sell you software and as part of the transaction, you agree to not give copies to anyone else, that's a contract. If you make a copy and give it to someone, you violated the contract.

 

There isn't a force that can stop them.

I hope that that is true, but a) You don't appear to have the slightest idea of the forces marshalled against the "free" internet I don't have to think particularily deeply before realising that the internet, for all its size and apparent complexity is remarkably vulnerable to centralised control if (and it is I grant you a big if) the Powers That Be can introduce legislation and turn public opinion in favour of ending online anonymity and privacy.

 

Before I make a guess at the "forces" you're talking about, it would help if you would explain just what parts of the "free internet" you believe are under attack.

 

On the flip side of that coin, you don't seem to "have the slightest idea" how the internet functions. You want to completely and successfully censor it? Turn it off. China has been trying and failing for decades, and they have absolute control over every packet coming or going.

 

Until you do (turn it off), there will always be a way to use it to send content that others -- perhaps everyone except the intended recipient -- don't want you to send.

 

People are pissed off that they can't get their (insert witty term for "acquired by act of copyright violation" here; e.g., "pirated") movies, music, porn, software, and videogames as easily as they could a few days before yesterday. They cloak this anger in righteous indignation about "the man" trying to "censor the internet."

 

"The man" would certainly like to, but this isn't even a baby step in that direction.

 

I'll start to worry the day sites that act to proactively defend copyright holders start to get taken down.

[labrat]

@Prideslayer.

 

A couple of days back the BBC, UK bastion of independent thought that it is, launched a preliminary salvo against TOR as a prime example of the evil "darknet". The three-pronged prod was simply Terrorism, Drugs and Pornography. The solution. End anonymity on the Internet, make onion routing illegal and tie every user to a unique IP address. (One day maybe you'll need an internet licence, that can be revoked).

 

There was a sop to the utility that "some arabs etc" might benefit from not having an identifiable profile, but the greater good demands their sacrifice so that our children can sleep safe in their beds.

 

If you keep an ear to the broadcast media and an eye to the printed media, and if you have any use for the evil "darknet" you may pick up on a current of increasing strength. An attack, of which ACTA, SOPA, PIPA and PCIP (which may be more relevant to LL) are simply the first playful feints, is planned on some of the fundamental ways in which the internet and you might interact.

 

Those who aim to control the lives of others have never been happy about unrestricted access to communication and information. But, putting these groups aside, there are also huge commercial interests who would like to see greater regulation of the internet.

 

"Information is power" and "Information is money" are cliches for a good reason. The established media barons cannot sell their carefully edited packets of information to a mass audience so easily if that audience can access relatively unrestricted information and entertainment for the price of their ISP.

 

Print pornography pimps have all but been put out of business and now find themselves sharing a common accord with puritans who are convinced that sex is a sin and online depictions of it doubly so.

 

Hugely wealthy companies who see that the days of selling distributable media may be at an end, given the ease with which such media can be copied and redistributed, are looking for ways to bind consumers tight and if that means ending user anonymity so be it.

 

At the end of last year civil servants from EU member states gathered in conclave for a quiet debate on how best to tackle the problem of online anonymity. How to allay fears and suspicions, how to sell it to the public, how to cow the ISPs into compliance. (OK I wasn't there but I got the gist). Without being explicit, as regards control, the words compliance and bottleneck should show you what I'm thinking of.

 

BTW, concealing encryption keys is already a criminal offence in the UK and they have already sent one person down for two years for being unable to provide a key when it was demanded by the authorities.

 

The UK also has a habit of sending people to prison for possessing prohibited knowledge. I have no bones about sending a man to jail for making a bomb - even for his own amusement - but to send a man to jail for reading an online ingredients list on what goes into a bomb that makes it go bang (as they did earlier this year, and it was a sentence of years, not months) seems a bit extreme even for the Brits.

 

Still I suppose that they are still a bit sensitive about Guy Fawkes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[prideslayer]

Labrat, there are a lot of.. oddball things going on in the UK the past few years, and it's only getting worse. Internet stuff is just one side of the coin, or one side of the 100 sided die if you prefer. The reasons for that stuff, and the stuff taking place in the EU, can't properly be discussed in a thread like this one.

 

Many of different groups want to restrict different types of content on the internet, for many different reasons. One thing there is not is a "global conspiracy" nor a faceless "the man" to point the finger at and blame.

 

As for the encryption password stuff, that's a different issue. The question isn't can you remain anonymous (You can't. Any thought that you can, even today, is a myth, unless you take extraordinary steps), but can you distribute your information.

 

I'm not arguing that you can mitigate the risk to zero while distributing "subversive" material in a totalitarian police state with absolute monitoring power. I'm simply stating that as long as the internet exists, you will be able to distribute any files you like, to anyone you want to distribute them to. Any risk you assume from distributing those files will be due to violations of the law -- the subject at hand being the contents of those files.

 

This conversation is going pretty far off the rails at this point. A few people are crying that the death of a few filesharing sites is the first inevitable step in the death of modding videogames and distributing those mods. They are wrong.

 

It's laughable to think that the death of a few websites could end the practice or the community. Mods and modding communities existed long before the WWW, and if the entire thing goes away, they will continue to exist. Hell, they existed before the internet, for that matter.

 

Steam is not going to kill free mods, and the death of "anonymous" web-based file sharing is not going to kill modding. Period.

[labrat]

Internet stuff is just one side of the coin' date=' etc. [/quote']

 

Actually, I think that the current battle for control of the internet is the most important arena at the moment. I appreciate that there are other important areas of conflict, but I think that the "high ground" that gives the best strategic advantage is the Internet.

 

Many of different groups want to restrict different types of content on the internet, for many different reasons. One thing there is not is a "global conspiracy" nor a faceless "the man" to point the finger at and blame.

 

Hmm. On the one hand you have a number of groups sharing common purpose, not in itself a conspiracy, but on the other you have representatives of different groups communicating and collaborating to achieve a common end, that might be called "conspiracy" if you were inclined to use a word that has been deliberately tainted by newsspeak. Maybe, as many of the key players are middle aged women calling them "the man" isn't too appropriate either. As for faceless, no, far from it, last time I checked there were a number of public faces only to ready to give a briefing, or interview. Of course, as in any organisation there are a large number of faceless people of low profile, and maybe a few who shun publicity for one reason or another. The names, organisations and government departments involved are all a matter of public record.

 

As for the encryption password stuff, that's a different issue. The question isn't can you remain anonymous (You can't. Any thought that you can, even today, is a myth, unless you take extraordinary steps), but can you distribute your information.

 

I don't know why you think that anonymity as a default state is so unfeasible. Actually, today, there are a few simple steps that anyone can take to ensure their practical anonymity. Only in extraordinary circumstances would that anonymity be vulnerable. This may not be true tomorrow.

 

I might go a bit further than some, (but then I wish to visit LL ) but nothing that a little light reading wouldn't permit anyone to do. How long this happy state of affairs will continue I don't know, but fortunately I have the resources and resourcefullness to make alternative arrangements.

 

I'm not arguing that you can mitigate the risk to zero while distributing "subversive" material in a totalitarian police state with absolute monitoring power. I'm simply stating that as long as the internet exists, you will be able to distribute any files you like, to anyone you want to distribute them to. Any risk you assume from distributing those files will be due to violations of the law -- the subject at hand being the contents of those files.

 

You are aware of Sections 63-68 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which became law in 2009? Why they haven't arrested the Nexus for Estrus is beyond me. As for LoversLab, lucky we're not in the UK eh?

 

This conversation is going pretty far off the rails at this point. A few people are crying that the death of a few filesharing sites is the first inevitable step in the death of modding videogames and distributing those mods. They are wrong.

 

I think that if you look into the wider web you'll see that the implications of the demise of a few filesharing sites are far more wide-reaching than you think.

 

It's laughable to think that the death of a few websites could end the practice or the community. Mods and modding communities existed long before the WWW, and if the entire thing goes away, they will continue to exist. Hell, they existed before the internet, for that matter.

 

Steam is not going to kill free mods, and the death of "anonymous" web-based file sharing is not going to kill modding. Period.

 

No. Inconvenient, but not the death blow. However, if they succeed in enforcing virtual registration of Web use then all those anti-pornography laws both obsolete and recent that are currently unenforceable because of very real privacy and anonymity will suddenly become enforceable. And that will certainly spell the end of a certain type of modding.

 

 

 

[Surenas]

Now you’ve lost me. Wishful thinking isn't my element.

And that's that!

 

 

See ya

[prideslayer]

Actually' date=' I think that the current battle for control of the internet is the most important arena at the moment.

[/quote']

 

Good a place to start as any, but there are not just two sides to it. Most of the players involved are operating entirely from self interest (business or personal), and alliances are temporary.

 

conspiracy stuff

Conspiracy strongly implies secrecy. That isn't "newspeak." It also involves purposeful collusion to achieve a common goal; there is no such common goal among most of the players. ISPs want one thing. Purveyors of porn want something else. Different levels of goverment want different things. Individuals want entirely different things depending on the individual. Sometime goal align between groups. Most don't. Pick the top 10 players and cross reference their positions against the top 10 issues. You'll find any two are opposed on as many issues as they are aligned on. Coming to an agreement on the content of both top-10 lists is an entire argument to itself.

 

I don't know why you think that anonymity as a default state is so unfeasible.

 

I don't think it is, I know it is. If you aren't posting and reading LL through something like crowds or TOR, your anonymity here does not exist. If you are using TOR, you're effectively anonymous against most of the other members. You have gained nothing when it comes to anonymity vs. governments or ISPs (or bored and snoopy ISP sysadmins.)

 

TOR is so broken, infiltrated, and untrustworthy I'm surprised anyone uses it any more. If you want to browse anonymously, go to a wifi hotspot, wear a halloween mask (or your Guy mask), and pay with a prepaid OTC visa. You may get odd looks.

 

Don't use the same browser you use when at home. Don't use any of the same accounts you use when at home.

 

You are aware of Sections 63-68 of the Criminal Justice and Immigration Act 2008 which became law in 2009? Why they haven't arrested the Nexus for Estrus is beyond me. As for LoversLab, lucky we're not in the UK eh?

 

I am not. I don't keep up on UK law, as I'm a US citizen. Looked it over, and... well lets just say I thought we had the puritanical hypocrisy market cornered here in the US. I guess not.

 

I think that if you look into the wider web you'll see that the implications of the demise of a few filesharing sites are far more wide-reaching than you think.

 

I see no implications at all. The fact that so many file sharing and collaboration websites remain open and have not altered their operations, and do not intend to do so, is telling.

 

that will certainly spell the end of a certain type of modding.

 

No, it would spell the demise of sharing those mods on the web. Maybe. In some countries. Nothing about any of the LL content is illegal here in the US. All the pseudo-anonimity is doing for me is preventing my perversions from being broadcast to friends and family.

[labrat]

Just a quick one as other things beckon. And there might be beer involved.

 

Conspiracy strongly implies secrecy. That isn't "newspeak." It also involves purposeful collusion to achieve a common goal; there is no such common goal among most of the players. ISPs want one thing. Purveyors of porn want something else.

 

Conspiracy is a useful word that has unfortunately lost a lot of value. I call it newsspeak (additional s intentional) as I can't help noticing the regularity with which those loud voices who have railed against "conspiracy theorists" have been caught out quite definitely conspiring against other members of their species. As regards secrecy. It is routine in business and government. Whether or not that is indicative in itself of conspiracy is probably in the eye of the beholder. As regards collusion.

 

ISPs are not in the cabal. They are quite happily making money with the status quo. They are inclined to squeal but will knuckle under when pressure is applied' date=' unless by deliberately choosing ISPs that respect user privacy we show how their wallets will be hit.

 

Pornographers aren't in bed with puritans - (that was a joke).

 

But national governments are cooperating very closely other governments, with media groups, with interested business groups, and with non-profit and semi-autonomous agencies to create legislation and campaign strategies. If these collaberations were "secret" we wouldn't know about them, but in the old-fashioned, pre-nutjob, sense they are conspiratorial. The agenda is not made transparent to the public who are to be led down the path one step at a time.

"Softly, softly catchee monkey" as they used to say.

 

I don't think it is, I know it is. If you aren't posting and reading LL through something like crowds or TOR, your anonymity here does not exist. If you are using TOR, you're effectively anonymous against most of the other members. You have gained nothing when it comes to anonymity vs. governments or ISPs (or bored and snoopy ISP sysadmins.)

 

TOR is so broken, infiltrated, and untrustworthy I'm surprised anyone uses it any more.

 

The fact that you say these things worries me a bit. And makes me ever so slightly suspicious.

 

I do use TOR quite extensively but not exclusively. I don't generally use it with LL - I trust you guys. - (that was another joke).

TOR has an occasional problem with end node sniffing. This is understood and there are ways around it.

TOR has very occasionally had rogue nodes. Again there are strategies for dealing with this, and in the nature of the beast, such rogue nodes can do very little harm.

For ease of use and general safety I would definitely recommend it but remember not to put all your eggs in one basket.

I cannot agree with your last sentence at all I'm afraid. Except for the untrustworthy. Never have faith, in the sense of blind trust. The only guarantee of any sort of freedom is constant vigilance.

The Onion Router may turn out to be The One Ring (to bring them all and in the darkness bind them) who knows?

 

I do not rely on TOR exclusively, useful and imo safe as it is, but you will understand if I would rather not share my methods with you.

 

Strangely enough, using WiFi of any description, anywhere, in any disquise, is not amongst them.

 

I don't share your estimation of the abilities of governments or their sub-contractors to circumnavigate privacy and anonymity laws and practices. I think that Big Brother is probably less of a problem than a bored office maggot. The strong desire to kill TOR and other privacy measures is an indication of the headache they represent to official snoops and buggers.

 

Big brother would very much like to be watching you, unfortunately (or fortunately), he/she can't if you use a bit of sense. This state of affairs they are determined to change.

 

I'm a US citizen. Looked it over, and... well lets just say I thought we had the puritanical hypocrisy market cornered here in the US. I guess not.

 

Where do think the Americans got it from?

 

I see no implications at all. The fact that so many file sharing and collaboration websites remain open and have not altered their operations, and do not intend to do so, is telling.

 

I think that some people think that laws used to crack one nut can crack another and allowing people power on the understanding that they will only use it wisely is not paying attention in history class.

 

No, it would spell the demise of sharing those mods on the web. Maybe. In some countries. Nothing about any of the LL content is illegal here in the US. All the pseudo-anonimity is doing for me is preventing my perversions from being broadcast to friends and family.

 

Stet. So while some lucky bastards are sheltering under the first amendment the Europeans are reduced to passing mods around in cashpoint codes....

 

[CrisG9]

The current trend in massive control is a sad one, i hope it is curbed before it does real damage to Creativity in general.