Some Thoughts On Submit, Defeat, And Death Alternative (Sd+)

[FRIdSUN]

Having tried Devious Submit, Defeat and SD+ for quite some time, I have formed an ideal coordination structure, and hereby I layout. It is from my observation and experience to try to push the three (four) mods to their limit, since the current circumstance involve quite a bit of redundancy in feature.

 

The coordination mainly divides into two parts: a common death alternative framework and a common slave framework. The former concerns Submit, Defeat and Death Alternative (DA) and the latter concerns Submit, Defeat and SD+.

 

The mods each has one superior and core feature, which is why people are willing to run them, even together.

• Submit: various seduction system & manual instant submission
• Defeat: instant event after defeat (rape rob restraint w/ Capture etc.)
• SD+: more complete slavery and escape system
• DA: more complete event and quest after death(defeat)

PS: I am pretty sure DA's black screen is decorative

 

From the perspective of API call, death alternative has limited implementation options. In this field, I think DA is the most complete and configurable, with plenty of quests and punishments. But Defeat's instant event and stamina knock down are creative and more realistic. Combine the two, better yet if the authors can integrate tighter, and a perfect DA framework can be born.

 

The slavery side has SD+ dominant in function, with Submit and Defeat offering no mid-or-long-term experience. But Devious Devices has played a very important role here, and I hope SD+ can support it soon. SD+ chose DA at first because I guess it was the only offer, but now that we have Submit, I think it is the best fit. With that said, Submit may yet be more focused by splitting it into two: the submit feature integrated into SD+ seamlessly with the slavery system (passive), and a dialog and combat seduction system (active) separated. As for player as master, it would surely be another plugin based on companion system.

 

I know it is always easier said than done, but at least, I hope the vision I have hereby offered is entertaining, and better yet, some food for thought.

[DeepBlueFrog]

I made the switch to DA from SD+ because it offered a quest template system to extend knockdown scenarios.

 

I saw that both Submit and Defeat now offer their own scenarios after knockdown, but as far as I can tell, they still lack the framework for other mods to add their own scenarios.

 

I am in the middle of adding Devious Devices to SD+ by the way, so the next version will be SD / DA / DD in one package.

 

In my tests, I am using Submit for voluntary submission options (and light slavery / bondage with the new progressive submit mod).

I am using Defeat only for the Aggressive PC option - I have been running into too many frozen / CTD situations each time I am using Defeat with PC as a Victim (it works fine on its own but becomes quickly unstable when I add SD / DA to the mix).

 

 

[Aliris]

I found it was working okay for me to use Submit solely for the dialogue/seduction, Defeat for higher HP ranges, and SD+ for final defeat (Basically setting Defeat to have a sub 100% chance to trigger in the 40 to 10% range, and then SD+/DA triggering at 10% and below).  There was no way, however, to do what I was doing before, which was to try and use all three.  I don't think this is entirely problematic - I just wish I could have some variation of all three, such as to have the Progressive Bondage be a potential scenario out of Defeat.

 

Ideally it could all wrap into some massive set of different scenarios, so you'd never know quite what you'd be getting.

 

Note too that the Defeat version up now is a beta, some of the stuff doesn't seem to be working for me (at least when I tested it), and likely has a few kinks that will be worked out.

[Ashra XIII]

I really like that SD+ has switched to using the DA framework, and from what I've read, Defeat is also going to use it. I petitioned on the Submit thread, hoping Dkatryl might have some interest in linking Submit onto DA as well, which would be super cool since it would make all three mods completely compatible... when the player is defeated, DA would choose more or less randomly (with priorities skewing things) which scenario will happen, with any of the three possible along with DA's own as well as others which could be hooked on seamlessly. It would be a dream for me!

[DeepBlueFrog]

If that helps, BralorMarr, the author of DA, is also a member of LL and very interested in watching other mods getting on board with his framework, He has been very helpful with finer points of quest integration with SD.

[Vithiss]

Just wanted to say that, for me personally, what makes SD(+) wonderful isn't really the slavery and escape system per se. What makes it, not just a great mod, but, as someone else in another thread called it, a "game changer" is Sanguine. Whether you play as the superlative hero or as a near anonymous nobody, there is nothing you can do about Sanguine and the things that follow from having attracted the "favor" of a daedric "god". Each character has to decide how to deal with it, but none of them has a chance of just beating Sanguine down and ending it. So, for, me, the indispensable parts of SD+ are those that make it spread out through the rest of the game, through other mods (where did those estrus tentacles come from? Sanguine, why do wolves and bears stop killing and eating you to rape you instead? Sanguine, etc as best pleases the player). You don't need Sanguine for slavery, for D/s, for bondage, or S&M. Sanguine just makes them all better.

 

It has seemed to me that a number of those complaining in the SD+ thread about content is that a lot of people do seem to want a slavery mod without Sanguine and I am not going to say that they are wrong to want it. I just hope that, somehow, in some form, the Sanguine parts can survive.

 

As for DD, I've only used it (assets and integration) a bit. I understand that it offers a good bit of functionality that most any bondage/sex mod could use. My issues with it are that I don't need the game to make escape "difficult" (I also self-impose "needs" rather than using a mod, and "wear & tear" too) and, honestly, that is only an issue because, so far as I know, DD isn't configurable to allow exclusion of specific devices to suit personal tastes (for me, it's chastity belts that make me a bit queasy and cold, which, I think, is kind of the star of the DD-verse).

 

That (probably off topic bit) aside, what I am missing atm that used to be easier (at least it seemed easier) is a relatively smooth transition from combat (gang)rape to enslavement. From what I can tell about how DA is set up, this would be something that would be implemented in the OnBleedout section where, atm, there is only the one necromantic drain (I think it's called) thing now. This is what I liked about Defeat, that and that "defeat" could be incapacitation rather than always and only being death - using Stamina, instead of Health, as the determiner is also a nice way of putting some  pressure on charge-n-slay fighters and those power attacks they're inclined to sling around while their ultimate-armor protects their health. I've used Submit a lot less than Defeat, it seems to work well, but the seduction functions can, kinda/sorta, be replicated by other mods.

 

Long and rambling, and maybe even not to the point of the thread, but I hope not too much OT. I can always delete it if its in the way/extraneous.

 

[DeepBlueFrog]

Don't worry... SD is Sanguine Debauchery - Sanguine will remain an integral part of it. Period.

If people don't like Dreamworld or Sanguine playing with them, there are plenty of slavery mods that are started and not finished yet for someone else to pick one up and work on it.

 

I have plans to develop his actions with the player (whenever I am done fixing bugs and rewriting things ).

[Ashra XIII]

I whole-heartedly agree that Sanguine is awesome and I love having him as an integral part of the mod. It's good to hear that he won't be losing his importance in the mod.

 

Back on the topic of the different slavery/death alternative mods, it's probably worth noting Prison Overhaul, which not only provides a more immersive prison experience, but a way to handle losing to guards and bounty hunters that avoids death.

 

I agree that I tend to like the idea of Devious Devices more than the execution, as I find it thrilling to have them put on my character, but the luster wears off after awhile when they interfere with my ability to play the game. Since I use realism mods, for example, chastity belts and gags can really ruin things, as they interfere with sleep and eating/drinking, respectively. On the other hand, Deviously Helpless, a mod similar to Defeat/Submit that activates on the existence of Devious Devices instead of the player losing in combat, makes the devices exciting again because it adds ways in which they mess with the player that I find fun, such as causing my character to drop her weapon while fighting, and getting raped because she couldn't fight back.

 

Overall, my enjoyment of Devious Devices depends on how much stuff is happening that involves them. I don't like just having them on because they can be more frustrating than fun, but if they are part of a quest, or a mod makes use of them in some way, then I love them.

[afa]

I guess I am probably one of those who find Sanguine to be pretty unnecessary so far. I like SD+, I like the dynamic slavery and escape aspect, but I don't need to have Sanguine to explain why these things are happening. Bandits/animals beat up a weaken attractive character, what happens next? Don't really need much explanation.

Perhaps the Sanguine part is not as flesh out as the mod aims to be since it has just gotten a new update; I am definitely looking forward to it being extend upon.

The permanence effects of being randomly rape due to high number of visits to the dream world was fresh the first few times, but gets a little bit stale after a while.

 

Jumping back on Defeat and Submit. I can't imagine running the game without at least one of them. While I like that they are getting work on, at the same time I am afraid they are going to conflict with each other more and more. I remember author of Defeat tried to integrate with DA once, but it didn't work out for him, not sure if he is still looking into it.

Defeat for me has three big features, mid battle rape, works on NPC/companion, and gangbang support, but the mid battle rape part seem to be losing some of its seamless transition with the new aggro clear system. The new struggle system is nice however, looking forward to see if it'll have some changes. The black out events while certainly a neat addition, starts to tread on Submit and SD+ territory.

 

Submit is all about Submit DD Progression for me. Submit imo sits somewhere between Defeat and SD+, sex happens at end of combat, and PC attempt to escape rather than straight up enslavement with SD+. Bad things happen if failed or caught. Would be nice if it can ties its events to DA as well.

 

DD in general I am a little conflicted on, a little confuse myself even. I am definitely not against the concept, but its execution, roles, and ties in with other mods often needs some deeper attention.

The very concept of chastity belts is to prevent sex. It is not necessarily a bad thing. Walking out and about in the wilderness constantly in danger of getting rape, chastity belt CAN be use as a good thing! Right?

Also in Submit if the captor wants to use the PC for sex why would they put a chastity device on her?

But I got to admit, having the plugs go off while wondering about, and the animation of PC try to touch herself is kinda hot

[traveller_phi]

[...]

As for DD, I've only used it (assets and integration) a bit. I understand that it offers a good bit of functionality that most any bondage/sex mod could use. My issues with it are that I don't need the game to make escape "difficult" (I also self-impose "needs" rather than using a mod, and "wear & tear" too) and, honestly, that is only an issue because, so far as I know, DD isn't configurable to allow exclusion of specific devices to suit personal tastes (for me, it's chastity belts that make me a bit queasy and cold, which, I think, is kind of the star of the DD-verse).

DD Integration is primarily a resource mod. It provides other mods tools/items to use. As such it is up to the mods that make use of the content provided to decide which items will be used, or provide that choice to the player. Asking DDI to be able to turn off items is like asking a mod that adds craftable armor to implement a way to disable certain armors the player may not like to see used in other mods.

 

That said there is then 2 paths for mods that use DDI to take. The more exclusive path, that is to just stick with the author's vision and desires as to which items should be included. The player then has the choice if they want to use the mod or not. Or a more generic path, where the player is given some options to configure what will and won't be used. The more generic path can be much more difficult to take, depending on the nature of the mod. The choice of what items to use would depend on the personality of the character applying the items. So if the choice is configurable by the player, the NPC doing the applying must either have no personality, or have multiple coded to match with the number of options. So I would only expect to see player configurable choices for mods that do not give personalities to the NPCs in question. Examples of no personality would be the devious addons to Defeat and Submit. An example of a mod with NPC personality would be Captured Dreams with the Master character. Still even Captured Dreams offers the choice to be submissive or not, so there is some flexibility there.

 

 

 

[...]

 

DD in general I am a little conflicted on, a little confuse myself even. I am definitely not against the concept, but its execution, roles, and ties in with other mods often needs some deeper attention.

The very concept of chastity belts is to prevent sex. It is not necessarily a bad thing. Walking out and about in the wilderness constantly in danger of getting rape, chastity belt CAN be use as a good thing! Right?

Also in Submit if the captor wants to use the PC for sex why would they put a chastity device on her?

But I got to admit, having the plugs go off while wondering about, and the animation of PC try to touch herself is kinda hot

The point of chastity belts isn't to stop sex. The point is exerting ownership/control of someone sexually. The person applying the chastity belt has the key, so it is not an impediment for them to have sex with the wearer. It moves the choice on if and when to have sex, or even achieve any sexual relief, from the wearer to the keyholder. This control is the driver for those interested in belts, not the simple lack of sex it represents on the surface.

[BralorMarr]

 

That (probably off topic bit) aside, what I am missing atm that used to be easier (at least it seemed easier) is a relatively smooth transition from combat (gang)rape to enslavement. From what I can tell about how DA is set up, this would be something that would be implemented in the OnBleedout section where, atm, there is only the one necromantic drain (I think it's called) thing now. This is what I liked about Defeat, that and that "defeat" could be incapacitation rather than always and only being death - using Stamina, instead of Health, as the determiner is also a nice way of putting some  pressure on charge-n-slay fighters and those power attacks they're inclined to sling around while their ultimate-armor protects their health. I've used Submit a lot less than Defeat, it seems to work well, but the seduction functions can, kinda/sorta, be replicated by other mods.

 

Mostly yes. Here is how the transition would work: mods like Defeat and Submit would register an OnBleedout trigger under DA and deactivate there own vanilla OnBleedout/OnHit way of triggering their event so that DA gets full control of which mod start when. The trigger is fairly easy to write for Defeat. I wrote a prototype in 10 mins just to check that it would work.

Now, what would happen when the player goes down is that DA would check if one OnBleedout trigger condition is satisfied, and start the one with the highest priority. If "necromantic absorption" has highest priority and the player has one of the required item, he can use them to get back up right away, otherwise another OnBleedout may start. DA would then relinquish control to that quest. Now, here is the important bit, the quest that starts need to become refractory for a while to allow new behavior to trigger if the player is defeated again right after. That way, you can have something like:

1) Player HP reach zero, DA put the player in an incapacitated state and checks for OnBleedout trigger.

2a) Necromantic absorption dialogue appears but player leaves fate to chance.

2b) Defeat (or another) is selected, rape ensues.

3) Player breaks free but is attacked again and HP reaches zero again

4) Defeat is now refractory, DA bleedout continue, bleedout HP reach zero, check for OnDefeat trigger

5) One of the many OnDefeat trigger is selected (possibly SD)

6) Player wakes up and is now enslaved or whatever the result of the previous step dictates.

 

That's more or less how I see it. The main difficulty in giving control to other mods is that one need to insure that now other thread is trying to screw up the changes one is making to the player. Next version of DA will provide an event that marks the end of bleedout/blackout/ragdoll in a clean fashion.

[ticalosul]

Excuse my bad english writing!!!!

 I like SD+ allot! great job to you Skyrimill for keeping SD up and running, and updating it. This mod is awesome!

But there are some things that I'd like (and many of mod users). Please add usage of Devious Devices to your mod.I know it is compatible with it but it would be awesome touse scenarios with it, like this: 

-Once captured you'r fully bound, gagged, added chastity belt, arm binder, and all, once that's done your master will give you two options, like he will rape you and let you go without your stuff and fully bound and your on your own to remove them, or you chose to stay and obey and progressively remove the bounds,  until you will go free with all of your stuff back and some money. You can chose to go free while progressively removing the bounds for example your master will say something like you've been a good and let you go with the progress you've made or you can stay being a slave until you are done with the Devices also aggravating him will cause to add devices back.

-Quests with DD in the the great sanguine realm!

 

  I know there are other mods out there with the use of DD, but SD+ would fit great with DD! Also this way you can go ahead and progress with your quest and not wait to do all the services for the master but with a cost.

[cadejocr]

Tested SD+ some days ago and escaping was too easy , just run away.

[slepth]

Hmmm...

 

IMHO from the discussions in SD+, Defeat & submit, I concluded that all we need is a custom version of DA.

 

Example of flow:

 

============

SL

 

v

 

SD+/Defeat/Submit

 

v

 

custom DA

 

v

 

Prison Overhaul etc

================

*I want tablesssssss

 

This way, we can:

 

1. Free up the modders from redundancy  

     (from making the same custom DA);

 

2. Reduce the bugs for the mods in 1

     (adding more things just increase the possibility of more bugs);

 

3. Increase compability between the mods in 1 

     ( If 1 mod use DA, 1 mod made DA optional & another integrate DA into the mod...... the conflicts would be nasty);

 

4. Just need 1/2 modder to maintain the custom version; and

 

5. Make the custom DA more SL focused.

    (sex anim, bondage, slavery etc)

 

 

The only thing we need is a tribute volunteer to maintain/code for the custom DA

[Skyrimdude]

I run Defeat, Submit. Devious devices and SD+ and have to say they interact pretty perfectly with each other as far as I can tell. I've not updated to the latest defeat version yet but it's still got great interaction.

 

Sometimes I get outright defeated in combat because some bandit chief or whatnot sneaks up from behind and then defeat triggers or I end up straight to enslaved. I'd say the enslavement isn't particularly easy to escape especially if you choose hardcore options! Admittedly you can roam pretty well and if you have better vampires installed a sneak feed will one shot kill your master and permit escape. However if you get a master who just watches you like a hawk you're going to have a bit of a tough time! Especially if you're like me and really want revenge from a character prospective!

 

I most like the submit and devious devices crossover and have a mod for progressive levels of bondage equipment per time my character submits. The only downside there is if you get enslaved the scenes are limited but it makes escape infinitely harder unless the SD+ messes up and strips all the devices the moment you're enslaved regardless of keys.

 

I'd like to see a mod combining defeat, submit and SD+ preferably also with the option to enslave other npcs but that's wishing for a lot! For now I'm relatively happy with the crossover interactions and the fact none of them crash each other

 

I have to say though my biggest desire right now is as ticalosul said SD+ integration with devious devices. It's often not fully compatable and it'd be great to see a master force you to work for him and please his/her friends or gain gold to earn release of specific parts of your bondage. It'd also be nice if they removed the damn belts before sex.... only so much forced head a person can stand watching! Defeat and submit are bad for that as well I'd much -MUCH- prefer if the belts were removed and readded afterwards but there's no real support for Devious devices although it is compatable and doesn't cause issues other than scene limitation most the time.

[Ashra XIII]

I have to say though my biggest desire right now is as ticalosul said SD+ integration with devious devices. It's often not fully compatable and it'd be great to see a master force you to work for him and please his/her friends or gain gold to earn release of specific parts of your bondage. It'd also be nice if they removed the damn belts before sex.... only so much forced head a person can stand watching! Defeat and submit are bad for that as well I'd much -MUCH- prefer if the belts were removed and readded afterwards but there's no real support for Devious devices although it is compatable and doesn't cause issues other than scene limitation most the time.

 

I see where you're coming from on this, as I too get a bit frustrated after awhile when wearing Devious Devices that my animations are so limited. Of course, that is the whole point of chastity belts, right? To prevent anyone from getting at those orifices.

 

I think it's very cool that the belts do what they're supposed to and prevent bandits from opening them up, but it'd be cool if bandits occasionally had keys, and there was some text or something that described the fact that the bandit happened to have a key, and unlocks your belt. Many mods are starting to use text as flavor to animation, and it's very exciting.

 

Before Death Alternative came along, I too used Submit, Defeat, and SD+ together, and for the most part I could get them operating fine. What DA brings to the table is that it helps to get them working together, rather than fighting, and of course opens up the (eventual) possibility that one mod might get triggered, and then gracefully hand off control to another mod in line. It's still a bit rough at this stage, and may never get to where I'm dreaming it could be, but I love that progress is being made.

[Vithiss]

I've been fiddling around with some DD stuff the past week or so (by no means all of the DD-verse mods, but several alongside Assets and Integration) and it seems to me that, from the perspective of SD+, DA, and Defeat at least that:

 

combat rapists, owners, and some rescuers should be able to remove any and all DD objects in the same ways that PCs can get out of them: magic, lockpicks, brute-force/smithing facilities. No matter what the devices are made of, no matter how they are made they come apart. They may or may not be destroyed in the process, but at the end of the day, they are held in place by buckles, pins, hinges and the like. Carefully unstrapping armbinders may be a bit tough, but, if they are made of leather a sharp dagger will get them off with little or no trouble at all though they will be reduced to scrap leather strips in the process. Chastity belts (and other rigid devices) are not, cannot be, one-size-fits-all and every point of adjustment is a point of weakness from the perspective of someone removing them from someone else. They don't need keys, or shouldn't, though I recognize that the keys are a device for attaining desired effects, all they need is a means of reattaching the device in a way that the pc can't readily remove it again.

 

So, aside from existing mod mechanics and various personal preferences, there's really no reason that any/all of them couldn't be removed by an attacker-owner-rescuer who wished to do so (and some of the DA rescuers, imo, should wish to - eg 'guild' rescue when pc is a member; any/all Temple rescues, etc; needless to say, a god, like Sanguine, would only have trouble if another god made the devices; and hostiles who find the pc an easy target may very well re-attach devices that had been removed before if they were available). If that's what people wanted.

[Dénouement]

Would it be wrong to suggest defeat, submit, s3, dd, po, sd, da, all be rolled into one functional plugin for the framework (perhaps titled, "SexLab Domination" or "SexLab Bondage and Domination).

 

Is that what's been proposed already?

 

In any case, redundancies and compatibility issues abound currently, with settings being critical concerns. Not to mention, I get the feeling that if the scripting can be made simple and less redundant, fewer CTDs might occur.

 

Perhaps if the individual mod authors gave permission, some enterprising up and comer (not me, I couldn't script my way out of a wet paper bag), could integrate them into a single plugin and if it works the quests (I can has more Sanguine?) could start to sub-plug (heh heh) in to that?

[DeepBlueFrog]

Would it be wrong to suggest defeat, submit, s3, dd, po, sd, da, all be rolled into one functional plugin for the framework (perhaps titled, "SexLab Domination" or "SexLab Bondage and Domination).

 

Is that what's been proposed already?

 

In any case, redundancies and compatibility issues abound currently, with settings being critical concerns. Not to mention, I get the feeling that if the scripting can be made simple and less redundant, fewer CTDs might occur.

 

Perhaps if the individual mod authors gave permission, some enterprising up and comer (not me, I couldn't script my way out of a wet paper bag), could integrate them into a single plugin and if it works the quests (I can has more Sanguine?) could start to sub-plug (heh heh) in to that?

 

Don't hold your breath... that's never going to happen to various reasons

 

The best we can hope for is integration between these plugins through a routing framework like DA so that they only kick in one at a time instead of on top of each other (which is what is causing issues really).

[traveller_phi]

Would it be wrong to suggest defeat, submit, s3, dd, po, sd, da, all be rolled into one functional plugin for the framework (perhaps titled, "SexLab Domination" or "SexLab Bondage and Domination).

 

Is that what's been proposed already?

 

In any case, redundancies and compatibility issues abound currently, with settings being critical concerns. Not to mention, I get the feeling that if the scripting can be made simple and less redundant, fewer CTDs might occur.

 

Perhaps if the individual mod authors gave permission, some enterprising up and comer (not me, I couldn't script my way out of a wet paper bag), could integrate them into a single plugin and if it works the quests (I can has more Sanguine?) could start to sub-plug (heh heh) in to that?

 

That would be a great idea if these mods were all complete and in their final form, with only the occasional bugfix or rare new feature added. However most if not all of the mods are in active development, so that would mean either someone updating the combined mod daily with every new release of a component mod, or the combined mod would always be out of date with respect to the component mods. I would guess that the effort of trying to keep up with all of this would easily be more than 40+ hours a week.

The above is only considering merging the mods into one huge mod and condensing the esm's and esp's down to one (or whatever the minimum would be needed to make this work). If you don't condense the esp's down to reduce the mod count (255 limit) then all you are really doing is repacking all the packages into one big zip file, which really doesn't gain you anything.

 

Now the other benefits you imagine would require more than just simply merging the esps. Actually trying to merge the code base to eliminate redundant code and improve compatibility would be a massive undertaking. I would want a team of modders working full time over a month to realize all the benefits of such a merger. Of course all that work would be invalidated as soon as one of the mods releases a substantial update, and I would estimate we get at least 2-3 such updates a month across that mod list, if not more.

 

So here we are talking a team of modders putting in major effort just to clean up a bunch of mods and package them for convenient install. If you have such a team, you would want to develop actual new content rather than spend all your effort redoing existing conent that will be out of date even before you release it.

 

Your other option would be to somehow convince all the mod developers above to scrap their individual mods and work together to produce the megamod instead. Not only would that infuriate the majority of their user base who do not want all that content in their game, it would also tie their release cycle to the group release cycle, slowing things down tremendously and infuriating the rest of their user base. Add in the nightmare tech support would be when a mod author can't bash out a hotfix and release to see if that solves the problem. This option is a definite no go.

 

So in summary, you need to wait until all the mods in your list are done with development before putting together the megamod would be a viable option.

 

[Dénouement]

Thanks for explaining. I'm new to the modding community, but h have always believed there may be value in an outsider's perspective.

 

I would have to guess them skyrimll and others are already working on the routing framework, so I look forward to that. As I'm still testing my game I hope I can offer whatever insights I come across for working it in the meantime.