Double hand rendering in 1st person 3BA

[Sicon3]

Almost a year ago i posted a topic on this same issue but never had any resolution. Now after returning to Skyrim and digging into the issue again I have more information to go on at least.

Basic info: 3BA body and equipment

yes the hands and feet and body were all built correctly to the same slider set

 

To start off this is what my first person hands are looking like (Picture 1)

 

As you can see there is significant finger clipping and to me it almost looks like two separate sets of hands are rendering at the same time. This issue is not changed by wearing equipment here is it with some steel gauntlets on and some brown gloves (Pictures 2 and 3). There is also a pronounced wrist seam that is out of the FOV

 

The strangest part is that this only occurs in first person. the hands look totally normal in third person (Picture 4)

 

the issue is even more pronounced when using a weapon (Picture 5)

 

My working theories are:

1: the hand mesh in my overwrite folder (the one built in bodyslide) is not being used and the game is trying to display a vanilla hand

2: the hand mesh in my overwrite folder IS being used but is being rendered in addition to a second set of hands from god knows where

 

If anyone has a clue as to what is causing this I would love to hear it I have spent far too much time trying to solve this issue myself.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Sicon3

[Gameplayer]

Ah,

 

The weight paints on those hands are absolute garbage, the fact that you get this on a fresh installation with 3BA means everyone playing with 3BA also has this problem.

They likely dont notice because there are likely more players playing in 3rd person.

 

1st Person uses a different hand mesh than the third person.

 

The entire Vanilla Replacer you are using has this issue more than likely from your pictures so far.

__________________________________________________

 

So I will attempt to explain the mechanics of the normal situation,

 

ArmorAA, is the record that tells the armor where the meshes are located in the games folders.

ArmorAA 

Contains, meshes locations, Sounds, Allowed Races

Same across all Beth games.

Note that almost all armor modders fail hard at making 1stperson meshes for everything, no idea why its not hard.  1st person meshes contained there as well for both sexes.

Games with multiple races that have different shapes or forms from one another will need unique ArmorAA and Unique Meshes for them, example my work on IKAROS Androids for Fallout 4, I made Bodyslides for all the armors up to around Nov 2021 provided here on LL.

 

The 1st person meshes, are so that when in 1st person you will have appropriate armor, arms, hands, and gloves.

 

What most modders do, they use the same mesh as the third person mesh, this results in "double body bug" in 1st person when using 1stperson Camera Mods.  When not using 1stPerson Camera mod but default game this results in just the arms working but the rest of the body is there and its very stiff, T-Pose player can literally look down at it.

 

In your case the 1st person hands that were used as a Reference throughout your Vanilla Replacer had jacked up "animation weight paints", so that meant that those reference hands broken as they are were used in every single glove that has hand parts showing.

 

Only way to correct that means well a lot of work.

You have to get a working hand mesh, simple because the third person hand mesh appears to work fine....However we would want to check the validity of the Hand Reference for 3BA Bodyslide before we get too far along....

 

So open Outfit Studio, have a look at the 3BA hand reference mesh, its possibly fine but I have no idea it could be messed up.....Open the Weight Paints section and just look at the gradation of the paints on the hands for the bones, if its all jacked up its going to have parts covered that shouldnt be like index finger weight paint on pinky finger and such nonsense.

IF it all looks good....Well I dont know how the guy that made the Vanilla Armor Replacer fucked it up so bad?

Also I'm thinking its not good because normally the Hand Reference mesh is used when you export your body from Bodyslide to populate your folders.

The linchpin issue is that if they are using the 3rd person hand mesh as the 1st person mesh well both would be jacked up.

 

How are the gloves without hands jacked up?

They are jacked up because Outfit Studio does not have perfect bone weight copy and the guy that made your replacer went ahead and bone weight copied the Reference Hand Mesh to the gloves/guantlets for the entire vanilla package.  <----Almost never needed, almost everyone uses the Vanilla animation bone weights, like 99.9% of everyone except your guy the 0.01% of the armor modder population that did not.

 

I'm thinking its probably possible that the 3BA hand reference is fine, but you have some other mod installed that has a 1st person hand mesh naked being built and exported to your games folders.  Cause otherwise your 3rd person naked hands would also be jacked up to heck.

 

So this would be quick to figure out....

Rebuild the 3BA body in bodyslide......Usually this of course has its own hands this is specifically what we want exported for this test.

Should resolve the issue of your naked 1st person hands....

 

This will not fix the Vanilla Armor replacer 1st person hands.....They are all jacked and need to be completely rebuilt, you would likely be better off just deleting all the vanilla armor 1st person references so that the default game 1stperson references would be used.

 

Also you really need to go over to that comments section and drop a line so that other end users are not all being like "its just me, I installed something wrong..."

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I want to be real clear so that you and everyone with this problem understands..........

 

It is not double hands.

 

IT is shitty weight painting and the guy that built that Vanilla Armor Replacer did the shit move of attempting to bone weight copy the hand weight paints onto all the glove models which fucked all those models and was not even needed in the first place!  He just made more work for himself to build all the 1st person models and then fuck up the paints.

 

Its not that hard to make 1st person models for hands, gloves, guantlets 

Just take the 3rd person mesh,

Example, myglove_1.nif

tooo----->1stperson_myglove_1.nif

Done I have my first person glove.

 

Arms are a bit more work cause you have to zap them from your Outfit Studio armors or do it in Blender.

Basically mask off the arms with a masking tool and then remove the area of everything not covered by a mask.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Gameplayer

[Sicon3]

31 minutes ago, Gameplayer said:

Ah,

 

The weight paints on those hands are absolute garbage, the fact that you get this on a fresh installation with 3BA means everyone playing with 3BA also has this problem.

They likely dont notice because there are likely more players playing in 3rd person.

 

1st Person uses a different hand mesh than the third person.

 

The entire Vanilla Replacer you are using has this issue more than likely from your pictures so far.

__________________________________________________

 

So I will attempt to explain the mechanics of the normal situation,

 

ArmorAA, is the record that tells the armor where the meshes are located in the games folders.

ArmorAA 

Contains, meshes locations, Sounds, Allowed Races

Same across all Beth games.

Note that almost all armor modders fail hard at making 1stperson meshes for everything, no idea why its not hard.  1st person meshes contained there as well for both sexes.

Games with multiple races that have different shapes or forms from one another will need unique ArmorAA and Unique Meshes for them, example my work on IKAROS Androids for Fallout 4, I made Bodyslides for all the armors up to around Nov 2021 provided here on LL.

 

The 1st person meshes, are so that when in 1st person you will have appropriate armor, arms, hands, and gloves.

 

What most modders do, they use the same mesh as the third person mesh, this results in "double body bug" in 1st person when using 1stperson Camera Mods.  When not using 1stPerson Camera mod but default game this results in just the arms working but the rest of the body is there and its very stiff, T-Pose player can literally look down at it.

 

In your case the 1st person hands that were used as a Reference throughout your Vanilla Replacer had jacked up "animation weight paints", so that meant that those reference hands broken as they are were used in every single glove that has hand parts showing.

 

Only way to correct that means well a lot of work.

You have to get a working hand mesh, simple because the third person hand mesh appears to work fine....However we would want to check the validity of the Hand Reference for 3BA Bodyslide before we get too far along....

 

So open Outfit Studio, have a look at the 3BA hand reference mesh, its possibly fine but I have no idea it could be messed up.....Open the Weight Paints section and just look at the gradation of the paints on the hands for the bones, if its all jacked up its going to have parts covered that shouldnt be like index finger weight paint on pinky finger and such nonsense.

IF it all looks good....Well I dont know how the guy that made the Vanilla Armor Replacer fucked it up so bad?

Also I'm thinking its not good because normally the Hand Reference mesh is used when you export your body from Bodyslide to populate your folders.

The linchpin issue is that if they are using the 3rd person hand mesh as the 1st person mesh well both would be jacked up.

 

How are the gloves without hands jacked up?

They are jacked up because Outfit Studio does not have perfect bone weight copy and the guy that made your replacer went ahead and bone weight copied the Reference Hand Mesh to the gloves/guantlets for the entire vanilla package.  <----Almost never needed, almost everyone uses the Vanilla animation bone weights, like 99.9% of everyone except your guy the 0.01% of the armor modder population that did not.

 

I'm thinking its probably possible that the 3BA hand reference is fine, but you have some other mod installed that has a 1st person hand mesh naked being built and exported to your games folders.  Cause otherwise your 3rd person naked hands would also be jacked up to heck.

 

So this would be quick to figure out....

Rebuild the 3BA body in bodyslide......Usually this of course has its own hands this is specifically what we want exported for this test.

Should resolve the issue of your naked 1st person hands....

 

This will not fix the Vanilla Armor replacer 1st person hands.....They are all jacked and need to be completely rebuilt, you would likely be better off just deleting all the vanilla armor 1st person references so that the default game 1stperson references would be used.

 

Also you really need to go over to that comments section and drop a line so that other end users are not all being like "its just me, I installed something wrong..."

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I want to be real clear so that you and everyone with this problem understands..........

 

It is not double hands.

 

IT is shitty weight painting and the guy that built that Vanilla Armor Replacer did the shit move of attempting to bone weight copy the hand weight paints onto all the glove models which fucked all those models and was not even needed in the first place!  He just made more work for himself to build all the 1st person models and then fuck up the paints.

 

Its not that hard to make 1st person models for hands, gloves, guantlets 

Just take the 3rd person mesh,

Example, myglove_1.nif

tooo----->1stperson_myglove_1.nif

Done I have my first person glove.

 

Arms are a bit more work cause you have to zap them from your Outfit Studio armors or do it in Blender.

Basically mask off the arms with a masking tool and then remove the area of everything not covered by a mask.

This is not a fresh install It dates to mid 2021 (yes my game is properly back patched to pre anniversary) I will see if replacing the hand mesh with the original one from 3BA and rebuilding helps. my armor replacer is BA's so could be on them.

 

Otherwise I follow what you are saying I'll see if I cant solve the issue on my own first

[Gameplayer]

Sorry about the long read, my first draft is just crap.

 

I think your main 3BA hands are likely fine, just export new ones from your main 3BA body download.

Your Vanilla Armor replacer is jacked though, how long to fix that well depends, it would be easier to just remove all 1stperson meshes from that mod about 1 hour, but fixing them no, gotta start from scratch would be too time costly to properly paint the weights to each of the hand models.

 

IF your hands export from Main 3BA turns out bad, well download the 3BA again and reinstall it, probably the hands got overwritten by another mod or the original did not have good hands.  If its been a year well likely these issues got sorted so might be worth while checking those two mods out for updates.

[Gods Plan]

how did you fixed it? I'm also facing a similar problem, can you help me to solve it?

Edited March 26, 2023 by Gods Plan

[Mr. Otaku]

10 minutes ago, Gods Plan said:

how did you fixed it? I'm also facing a similar problem, can you help me to solve it?

 

Skeleton issue from the looks of it, reinstall XP32 properly and build the body in bodyslide.

[Gods Plan]

12 hours ago, Mr. Otaku said:

 

Skeleton issue from the looks of it, reinstall XP32 properly and build the body in bodyslide.

so i reinstalled XP32, bodyslide and 3ba to see if i messed something up while installing. But that doesnt seem to be the problem. 

[anjenthedog]

I see your fingernails are colored. Are your hands from a mod replacer, or equipped using one of those equipable hands? If so, did you build them in Bodyslide? (Or, alternatively, do they have bodyslide definitions? if not. it means you're at the mercy of whichever size the author made them...and they're probably from a pretty old mod)

 

Also, have you tried changing their size in Racemenu (body scales submenu)? Until you solve the issue permanently, at least it can make life a little less annoying.

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by anjenthedog
clarifying

[Gods Plan]

20 hours ago, anjenthedog said:

I see your fingernails are colored. Are your hands from a mod replacer, or equipped using one of those equipable hands? If so, did you build them in Bodyslide? (Or, alternatively, do they have bodyslide definitions? if not. it means you're at the mercy of whichever size the author made them...and they're probably from a pretty old mod)

 

Also, have you tried changing their size in Racemenu (body scales submenu)? Until you solve the issue permanently, at least it can make life a little less annoying.

 

 SOLVED it was this mod that was causing the issue. Uninstalling fixed it.