[Stellaris] Planetary Tile System removal

[Froggy]

On 8/14/2018 at 6:28 AM, Csiga5biga said:

Honestly, I will never understand why people hate updates. If you don't like them, you switch back.

 

For those of us using Steam instead of Pirate Bay, that's not really an option.  Steam removed the choice of saying no to automatic updates a long time ago.

 

Stellaris: Console Edition...... This end well right guys?

It certainly explains why they've been dumbing it down since day one.

[Rentetsuken]

30 minutes ago, Froggy said:

 

For those of us using Steam instead of Pirate Bay, that's not really an option.  Steam removed the choice of saying no to automatic updates a long time ago.

 

It certainly explains why they've been dumbing it down since day one.

What are you talking about?  You can roll back on Steam to any version.  Just right click on the game, click on properties, go to the 'betas' tab.  You can choose the final bugfix version of any of the major updates.

[Rotator]

I don't feel it very weird that the same people who don't like changes and blatant upgrades also can't figure how to roll back to previous game versions, and don't even read the dev diaries.

 

It's called lazyness. It's just a game so you can be lazy if you want, but you should probably know that if you go complain on the official forums like OP said here, you won't be well received by people like me who've explained the problems with the tiles system and the various ways it could be solved. I've never been an advocator if its complete replacement by another system (for various reasons) but I must say the devs solution looks really good, and just like the vast majority of players I'm waiting for it. Anyone who has played Stellaris for a few dozens hours will likely agree that the current tiles system isn't enjoyable and had to be replaced or upgraded. And not only they are doing that, but they are completely reworking how planets and societies work as well.

 

Which is certainly not something that would be called "removing a feature". This is removing a place-holder mini-game and replacing it by various features. Also, there was never an accessible beta with just removed tiles. Unless you're a member of their QA team (which is obviously not the case), this is a plain lie from someone who saw the pre-alpha picture show at PARADOXCON and you're acting like that one boy whose uncle works for Nintendo...

[Rotator]

I don't feel it very weird that the same people who don't like changes and blatant upgrades also can't figure how to roll back to previous game versions, and don't even read the dev diaries.

 

It's called lazyness. It's just a game so you can be lazy if you want, but you should probably know that if you go complain on the official forums like OP said here, you won't be well received by people like me who've explained the problems with the tiles system and the various ways it could be solved. I've never been an advocator if its complete replacement by another system (for various reasons) but I must say the devs solution looks really good, and just like the vast majority of players I'm waiting for it. Anyone who has played Stellaris for a few dozens hours will likely agree that the current tiles system isn't enjoyable and had to be replaced or upgraded. And not only they are doing that, but they are completely reworking how planets and societies work as well.

 

Which is certainly not something that would be called "removing a feature". This is removing a place-holder mini-game and replacing it by various features. Also, there was never an accessible beta with just removed tiles. Unless you're a member of their QA team (which is obviously not the case), this is a plain lie from someone who saw the pre-alpha picture show at PARADOXCON and you're acting like that one boy whose uncle works for Nintendo...

[Unknown Master]

I'm going to leave this short and sweet, as someone who has tossed in 364 hours on Stellaris (at the time of writing) The changes the devs are making are both needed and wanted. people are only looking at the short term 'ermagerd I huv 2 lern stof agan'. Well, in the long run, I can only dream of all the modding potential this update will have. Just to mention something off the top of my head, imagine a species dependent on sexual fluids to survive, you can create a mod that adds in a fluid resource produced by pop farms and you can just use regular food to sell to the other empires. The possibilities are truly endless

[Guest]

On 8/17/2018 at 5:49 PM, twofiveseven said:

They're letting you make Cum and Milk resources produced by Red Light Districts to fuel your armies of fuckbots that do exclusively morale damage come on it'll be amazing

I saw that lol moddable resources. Sweet........  

[protocolk]

Ok I saw the outrage caused by this update and I really dont get it, so far ive been seeing every dev log and im loving the ideas for this new update.

About the tiles removal its notstreamlining theyre still there but woprk on a different way, also while you dont see population on tiles you see it on the social classes part, we can now hav moddable tiles, resouces and new kinds of slaves. We got economy and both an interplanetary goods and slaves market, We have prper social strata and jobes (I saw miner, crafter, entertainer and ruler) but they will be modable. We can have giant city planets and other specialized planets. We no longer have sectors instead star clusters can be added or removed from governamental provinces, we can have as many leaders we want but theyll require a salary and the more you have the most expensive will be to get a new one, factions are now modable and reworked and the list goes on.

[Raaaah]

On 8/12/2018 at 11:43 PM, SexDwarf2250 said:

The planetary tile system is in the process of being removed, judging by what I'm seeing in the current Beta patch. I suggest anyone who enjoys using any population race, clothing, skin or nude mod goes to the forums to voice their displeasure, because if it goes live as the beta stands now, you'll never see your planetary population ever again. Honestly, I don't know what they're thinking.

What're you on about? Did you even read anything? Planet management is being split into building/district management and employment management. Pops will appear in employment management, where you move them into particular jobs, job numbers are modified by districts and special buildings. This is to minimize micromanagement and make your decisions related to planet management more important. Now instead of having to constantly remember to make all those mining buildings you can far more easily just setup a bunch of industrial districts and make mining a higher priority job. 

 

 

 

Look at the bottom tabs, Planet Summary has buildings and district, the population tab is where you manage job priority and can see the pops. Hell, this actually ADDS pop-appearance variety since higher class pops will have better clothing and you can mod this, and will make it easier for you if you want to, lets say, add slave-specific clothing.

 

I'd also like to add that this is a heavy improvement to the game, even if the pops vanished and it'd make nude mods and the like disappear, is a small image really worth worsening the game over? No, no it's not.

[Raaaah]

On 8/26/2018 at 3:03 PM, Froggy said:

 

For those of us using Steam instead of Pirate Bay, that's not really an option.  Steam removed the choice of saying no to automatic updates a long time ago.

 

It certainly explains why they've been dumbing it down since day one.

 

First of all, how is lessening tedious micro-management that adds nothing to the game "dumbing it down"? With the current system, if I want to make four mining buildings, I can either be very inefficient and build them all, wasting precious energy credits, and then have to remember to move pops there; with the new system I can just easily add more industrial districts, and set mining as a higher priority job so new pops are automatically assigned to it - how is this dumbing down? War was totally redone so you need longer campaigns and to take into account position and movement far more than having a single, super fleet that can quickly move from one corner of your Empire to the other and just easily stomp anyone, even if being attacked on all fronts - how is this dumbing down? How was making you actually able to defend your Empire instead of having two movement systems that could go around every possible defense dumbing things down? I know the limitation to hyperlanes made a lot of people mad, but you must understand the nightmare that was balancing it, right? 

 

Me finding those comments ridiculous aside, you're also very, very wrong. 

 

 

I don't want to be rude, but I'd appreciate if you were at least able to do a small Google search before making false comments and then claiming the devs are dumbing things down. You can, in fact, go to an older version on Steam.

[SexDwarf2250]

9 hours ago, ParadoxalObserver said:

I don't want to be rude, but I'd appreciate if you were at least able to do a small Google search

I don't want to be rude, but if you can't see how removing a map with two dimensional interactions and terrain effects in favor of spreadsheet "strategies" is a huge dumbing down, not even Google search can help you. Anyway, the devs have already said before that they have apparently not had the time to figure out how to make their code handle these complexities efficiently, so it's doubly funny to see people argue this isn't an issue and defend the devs in the same breath.

[Raaaah]

11 hours ago, SexDwarf2250 said:

I don't want to be rude, but if you can't see how removing a map with two dimensional interactions and terrain effects in favor of spreadsheet "strategies" is a huge dumbing down, not even Google search can help you. Anyway, the devs have already said before that they have apparently not had the time to figure out how to make their code handle these complexities efficiently, so it's doubly funny to see people argue this isn't an issue and defend the devs in the same breath.

The older system was worse... You had three systems that worked in totally different ways and the result was that war mechanics were totally broken, it meant it was a nightmare to balance and there was no way of fixing it. It also made it so neat ideas like supply lines couldn't be implemented, as the next version will implement. So essentially, static defenses were useless, there was no reason not to just make one huge fleet and squash everything, if you researched different FTL types then suddenly you could also have gateways. All this resulted in a totally broken game - fixing something that's overly complicated and doesn't work isn't dumbing it down. This is equivalent to saying you'd prefer complicated wonder of engineering that doesn't actually do anything over a simple, functional car. Sure, one is far more complicated than the other, but the other works .

 

Secondly, spreadsheet strategies were more common when there were three methods of FTL. You always took warp - no argument - warp allowed you to go anywhere within an area which allowed you to easily go around static defenses and allowed you to move a lot more easily than the other two; if you wanted to later research a second you only researched gateways. Then, you had at max two fleets, but usually one doomstack was enough to defend an entire Empire seeing as movement speed was high enough that with the existence of second or third tier warp you could zoom from one corner to the other before the enemy barely took anything, at which point you squashed them. Of course, here comes the spreadsheeting part: since all that mattered was a single, massive fleet, you just calculate the most efficient build - done.

 

Currently due to how hyperlanes restrict movement, the lowering of speed, the fact that static defenses can actually slow an enemy down or stall them, in a few cases, and the fact that inhibitor tech - an early game tech - makes you unable to cross by stations and planets without taking them, it means you actually have to create several fleets to defend a larger Empire as you can't nearly as easily get from point A-to-B. Similarly, with how planetary defense and static defenses now work, it requires actual thinking. Yes, there is still the same issue of there being clearly superior fleet designs, but that issue already existed, it was worse before because only a single massive fleet mattered.

 

On the point of "two-dimensional interactions" and "terrain effects": terrain effects are bad because...? They make systems different and force you to account for them instead of making a spreadsheet fleet that wins every time? Terrain effects add flavour, I can, for example, put a station focusing on armour shredding around a Star that causes shield malfunctions - that means an enemy will be forced to waste time equipping a fleet just to deal with this or risk heavy losses - oh no, the game is making me plan. The game was also always two-dimensional; gateways were essentially just a teleportation device and warp was just a circle around a fleet that told you which place you could hop to - there was never any 3D gameplay, it was always just flat terrain with the illusion of three-dimensional movement. 

 

Uh. What the devs said, and I shall repeat, was what I've said multiple times, I quote: "The single biggest design issue we have had to tackle in the Stellaris team since release is the asymmetrical FTL. While it's a cool and interesting idea on paper, the honest truth is that the feature just does not fit well into the game in practice, and blocks numerous improvements on a myriad of other features such as warfare and exploration, as well as solutions to fundamental design problems like the weakness of static defenses. After a lot of debate among the designers, we finally decided that if we were ever going to be able to tackle these issues and turn Stellaris into a game with truly engrossing and interesting warfare, we would have to bite the bullet and take a controversial decision: Consolidating FTL from the current three types down into a primarily hyperlane-based game, with more advanced forms of FTL unlocked through technology." - Stellaris Dev Diary #92

 

So uh, no what they said - as again I've said multiple times - is having three FTL methods was a neat idea but was impossible to balanced and limited what they could do; static-defenses would never work since you could go around them, planning based on terrain was impossible since fleets could move in any direction, and supply lines didn't work since there were no supply lines to speak of (next update is adding supply lines, meaning that if you have a planet that gets all its food from somewhere else, managing to cut it off will mean it'll start starving out). All these improvements that force you to *think* instead of make the largest, most hyper efficient fleet were being prevented because of asymmetrical FTL - it had nothing to do with "the code being unable to handle these complexities efficiently". The worst part is that the question has been asked on how people complaining would fix it - and I haven't seen anyone give a reasonable answer. It always boils down to: "It was a cool idea and I liked it!" Yeah well, I liked it too, but it didn't work, and people sometimes have to remember that just because it's a cool idea doesn't mean it'll work as planned - and it didn't.

 

Long rant, but yeah, please don't make things up. It's fine to say: "the removal of asymmetrical movement ruined the game for me" or really the changing of any system. I don't agree with how war exhaustion currently works, personally. What I don't go around doing is pretending devs said things they didn't and then acting as if just because I dislike it, that it's somehow objetively worse. It isn't, most people liked the change, if Stellaris' Steam sales tell us anything. 

[Draonir]

To the regards of downgrading. There will be some change because of the law. Somewhere in the Stellaris reddit you will see a thread about this. 

[SexDwarf2250]

12 hours ago, ParadoxalObserver said:

Long rant, but yeah, please don't make things up.

You mean like your "opinions?" That's a long rant about FTL when the thread isn't even about that. I don't think that was so much a bad design choice, because it actually contributed towards map "terrain" (as far as this can exist in space) by creating bottlenecks. However, if you can't see how going from a 2d map to a 1d spreadsheet is worse, there's really no point in discussing anthing further with you, your mind is set to support Paradox even if they take a shit on your lap. "Hey, I have a shit on my lap, but it works." Woops - I meant, enjoy Stellaris Brothers 64! On a console near you soon.

[Unknown Master]

How is removing a literal 1 layer (aka: one dimensional) tile system and remaking it into several layers of planetary customization "dumbing down"? Can't you see how you're contradicting yourself? You're saying that you want more complexity in your games, but you want it as it is right now, 'oooh let me just toss a power generator on an energy tile, oh wait, THERE IS NO RESOURCE IN THIS TILE!!.... nah just kidding, throw in a fortress and call it a day' 10/10 strategy...

 

At least with this update you can actually designate and CHOOSE (that's the key word, 'choose', which means you can strategise) what to do with your planets. You're not limited by what tiles your planets happen to spawn with and can actually construct a planet depending on your needs, not what you have available. Gone are the days where you're shit out of luck cus your planets all have limited tiles and can't really do anything useful with them cus only a madman would put mines on energy tiles

[Froggy]

On 9/24/2018 at 4:17 AM, ParadoxalObserver said:

I work for Paradox as a PR rep.  It's right there in my name.

What's the pay like?

[Froggy]

So here's what the pretentious ones apparently missed: 

 

Yes, I know you can roll a game back on Steam and have known this for quite some time.  However, I have over a dozen different mods installed for Stellaris and only one of them is from Lover's Lab.  I know this may come as a total shock to you, but fapping is just small part of life, not the entirety of it.  Unless you're a Paradox PR rep.  I can't stop mod authors on the Steam Workshop from updating their stuff and there is still no way to roll back workshop mods.  The best you can hope for is that the mod author is kind enough to keep the older version up as a separate listing.  The only way to preserve my dozen-plus mods in their current form is manually go into Steam's folders, dig through the random numbers of the workshop section to find where the Stellaris stuff is, then cut & paste their entirety over to my documents folder, then sift through them and rename those random numbers into comprehensible words, and then go back to Steam and unsubscribe from those mods in order to avoid showing duplicates for everything.

Which is what I've had to do and it was quite the pain in the ass, so yes I'm grumbling.  And if anyone out there hasn't already done this then I suggest you do it now because once those mod authors upload their updates to Steam your chance to preserve them as-is will be gone forever.

 

[Unknown Master]

2 hours ago, Froggy said:

So here's what the pretentious ones apparently missed: 

 

Yes, I know you can roll a game back on Steam and have known this for quite some time.  However, I have over a dozen different mods installed for Stellaris and only one of them is from Lover's Lab.  I know this may come as a total shock to you, but fapping is just small part of life, not the entirety of it.  Unless you're a Paradox PR rep.  I can't stop mod authors on the Steam Workshop from updating their stuff and there is still no way to roll back workshop mods.  The best you can hope for is that the mod author is kind enough to keep the older version up as a separate listing.  The only way to preserve my dozen-plus mods in their current form is manually go into Steam's folders, dig through the random numbers of the workshop section to find where the Stellaris stuff is, then cut & paste their entirety over to my documents folder, then sift through them and rename those random numbers into comprehensible words, and then go back to Steam and unsubscribe from those mods in order to avoid showing duplicates for everything.

Which is what I've had to do and it was quite the pain in the ass, so yes I'm grumbling.  And if anyone out there hasn't already done this then I suggest you do it now because once those mod authors upload their updates to Steam your chance to preserve them as-is will be gone forever.

 

I understand that you might dislike certain changes on paper, but why don't you just try it and see for yourself how the positives outweigh the negatives. And just saying 'hurr durr it sucks' is not actual feedback, what we need is actual suggestions on how to improve it, or even better, make a mod that brings back the three FTL types  However, as you yourself noted modders do not offer versions for old Stellaris, which in my opinion says a lot about what the playerbase wants.

 

NB: I'm making a concerted effort to restrain myself from lashing out as you resorted to call people who are supporting Paradox 'PR reps' and 'pretentious' while disregarding that a vast majority of players love these changes.

[nugerumon]

Thanks to this thread I've run out of popcorn. Could you refrain from posting until I refilled my stocks? That would be neat.

[Froggy]

On 9/27/2018 at 8:46 AM, Unknown Master said:

I understand that you might dislike certain changes on paper, but why don't you just try it and see for yourself how the positives outweigh the negatives. And just saying 'hurr durr it sucks' is not actual feedback, what we need is actual suggestions on how to improve it, or even better, make a mod that brings back the three FTL types  However, as you yourself noted modders do not offer versions for old Stellaris, which in my opinion says a lot about what the playerbase wants.

 

That's a reasonable argument.  I should note, however, that if you look at Rimworld most of the more popular mods are available in several versions, depending on which stage of development you - the player - most prefer.  I can only hope that the Stellaris modders do the same.  I would also not be assuming what the majority of the playerbase wants, as that has yet to be determined.

[Unknown Master]

8 hours ago, Froggy said:

 

That's a reasonable argument.  I should note, however, that if you look at Rimworld most of the more popular mods are available in several versions, depending on which stage of development you - the player - most prefer.  I can only hope that the Stellaris modders do the same.  I would also not be assuming what the majority of the playerbase wants, as that has yet to be determined.

Even if we ignore the playerbase, the modders and devs feel that it is better the way things are going now, doesn't that mean that modding will be easier? If I was a modder I would not want to be stuck with a rigid system that crashes and burns as soon as I poke it a little bit.

[Froggy]

I'm not sure what you mean by "rigid system" or "crashing."  It's not like they're going to be changing game engines any time soon, and it's not that unstable.

 

As for the modding community, the Clausewitz Engine can mostly be modded in notepad, so I can't imagine it getting any easier than it already is.  Heck, I've done tweaking of Stellaris and CK2 and I don't even know BASIC.  As for for whether they think it's going to be better or not, again, that hasn't been determined yet.  We won't know for sure until they put their new spreadsheet system live and seeing how many modders decide to update versus how many simply call it quits.

 

As for the devs, they've already admitted that their real reason for switching systems was that they couldn't make the AI smart enough to use the current system, so they needed a new one that it could handle.  That is pretty much the literal definition of "dumbing down," is it not?  Look, I'll admit that the tile system wasn't perfect.  There was plenty of room for improvement and several mods already that aimed to do that.  But, metaphorically speaking, I don't see rust spots and a noisy muffler as just cause to send an entire car to the scrapyard.

 

It seems strange that when CK2 has problem with a game system Paradox has always said "let's fix that system" while whenever Stellaris has had problems with a game system Paradox always says "throw it out, make a new one."  CK2 constantly moves forward forward while Stellaris just sits there stuck in an endless retcon loop.  I believe that people are getting a little sick of that overall.  It's not just tiles - it's everything.

[Unknown Master]

When I said rigid, I meant that the entire tile and resource system was hardcoded into the game and the new changes move everything into scripts meaning that they can now be completely modded to your hearts content.

 

And I would like to have a source as to were they mentioned that they're making the changes because of their ai because as far as I can tell, a more complicated system is not really dumbing down anything for anyone...(you have to be blind not to see that it's more complex)

[Onimonipea]

On 9/30/2018 at 9:06 AM, Froggy said:

It seems strange that when CK2 has problem with a game system Paradox has always said "let's fix that system" while whenever Stellaris has had problems with a game system Paradox always says "throw it out, make a new one."  CK2 constantly moves forward forward while Stellaris just sits there stuck in an endless retcon loop.  I believe that people are getting a little sick of that overall.  It's not just tiles - it's everything.

Lets take off the nostalgia glasses for a second and remember how long exactly for them to actually fix retinues and decadence and how they "fixed" rebellions and made them thirty times worse. 

 

Lets also not forget that the two single largest changes to how the game played, the levy nerf and then the additions of shattered retreat and coalitions were and still are very unpopular to the point that for the latter they allow you to chose whether or not they actually are in your game. 

 

Also are we still on this "Making the game more casul" nonsense?

On 9/30/2018 at 9:06 AM, Froggy said:

As for the devs, they've already admitted that their real reason for switching systems was that they couldn't make the AI smart enough to use the current system, so they needed a new one that it could handle.  That is pretty much the literal definition of "dumbing down," is it not? 

Removing content is not dumbing down. Simplifying game mechanics by stripping features and not replacing them is dumbing down. Ridding the game of a shitty tile system that limits the game, these limitations you and OP ignore to keep shrieking that the game is getting more casual, and replacing it with more features is not dumbing down.

 

On 9/30/2018 at 9:06 AM, Froggy said:

We won't know for sure until they put their new spreadsheet system live and seeing how many modders decide to update versus how many simply call it quits.



The game is already a spreadsheet simulator, every flagship paradox game is numbers smacking numbers. The game as it stands is numbers hitting numbers. The much defended planet tile system is just player input on numbers and where these numbers go, subject to every inefficiency that implies. "But that means they are dumbing the game down" So you can't chose to put two mines next to each other, or develope a tile. Such engaging gameplay, what a shame to see it go.

[Froggy]

5 hours ago, Onimonipea said:

The game is already a spreadsheet simulator, every flagship paradox game is numbers smacking numbers. The game as it stands is numbers hitting numbers. The much defended planet tile system is just player input on numbers and where these numbers go, subject to every inefficiency that implies.

 

It's good to see that you are aware of the real problem with the game.  Now let's talk about fixing that instead of making it worse by removing that last bit of player input from it.

[Unknown Master]

IT's clear to me that you are selectively ignoring all our arguments in favour of the update. I for one am going to give up on trying to enlighten you from your deluded state of mind.

 

Just backup your mod folders and roll back the version you're playing on steam and leave the rest of the community to play a better version of the game