Question regarding Texture files (texture_1.dds, _msn, s, sk)

[MonaBabii]

Hello!

I'm trying to modify a skin for Skyrim (SG Textures Renewal), something very specific about the skin, and for that I think I just need a greater knowledge as to what the different .dds files are and are used for.

 

-Can anyone share some information on that, or share a link to an explanation/guide somewhere that tells me exactly what are the "msn", "s" and "sk" files, and how/when they are used.

 

I'm used to making skin textures for a game/simulator called Second Life, but modding skins in Skyrim is -way- different.

In Second Life you only had the one .TGA file for the skin, and within the .TGA you would use Alpha channels/layers where due.

In Skyrim there are all sorts of different files and I just have no idea what they are D:

 

Thanks so much in advance! I tried to be as specific as possible with my inquiry. I can probably try to explain a little better what it is that I need to know if it's not clear enough

 

P.S.: Not sure if this is a topic for the support forum. Don't think so, but I'll try to move it there or wherever if this isn't the right spot for the question.

[Redflyingmonkey]

So I stole that from nexus : 

 

 

 

.dds = diffuse map, the compressed texture itself
_msn.dds = should be the body's normal map
_s.dds = well since the specular map is in the _n.dds alpha i guess this is a gloss/shine map
_sk.dds = if i remember right these maps contain sub surface details

Biggest impact would have the change/edit of the .dds map since it contains the "real texture",

_msn.dds - the normal map defines 3D details - simulates more details on a low polygon surface. There should be the specular in its alpha channel (black=dark,white=bright ingame). A "faked" normal map itself can be generated with Nvidia DDS plugin for Gimp/PS from the texture itself.

_s.dds - just had a look on it in PS, seems similar to the other object's _m.dds, same color sheme as the specular map mentioned in the _msn.dds. Black = dark, less reflection/gloss, white = the opposite.

_sk.dds - well you see its details in Gimp/Photoshop 

 

 

:DDD

 

Gonna have requests for you to refuse when you figure out how to edit them on Photoshop sir !

[MonaBabii]

Thanks Redflyingmonkey!

I believe I already know how to edit them and export them, for both a texture with alpha layers and one without.

I'm still a little confused... but I think the change I want to make to the skin should be applied to the _s file then... according to that quote. We'll see I guess

The change in the texture is probably not suitable for this particular forum otherwise I'd share my progress. I might post my progress over at the adult area of the forum if I can get this 100% how I want it.

 

Thanks again!

[Irrational]

Textures are saved as dds for its compression to be used with Skyrim. You edit it by finding the dds converter tool for Photoshop (Or other raster programs) and edit like how you normally would with an image. The _msn/_n file is the mapping, if you have never done any mapping, I suggest you take a look at some tutorials on bump mapping and normal mapping to get an understanding. The _S file is for specular maps that are used for things like emulating skin pores, and glossiness. The _sk is for subsurface scattering. 

[Aegis]

As an addendum:

 

Diffuse map is what it is, same for pretty much every other game, but saved in .dds format instead of tga. Find plugins for PS/gimp. DXT5 if you use alpha, DXT1 otherwise. ARGB is pointless except for skin_msn (eliminates the blockiness from DXT compression of the object space normals).

 

Specular (_s) maps are also what it is; can be attached to the alpha of the normal map to save space, concept is very similarly to the env (_m) map, but the two functions quite differently - one requiring a cubemap, while the other only requiring specularity parameters to be set up in nifskope.

 

 

Normal map (_msn) is quite different; body meshes are the only ones that use the object space normal maps in Skyrim; all other meshes utilize tangent space normals (_n). Object space normals are quite a bit easier to generate using your 3d program of choice (3ds/mudbox/zb/etc), but with the limitation of fixed space-state, fixed magnitude, and you cannot modify the maps in, say, photoshop/gimp, as you'll have to generate a new one each time you make modifications to the body mesh.

 

 

Lastly, the skin (_sk) maps. They govern how the light interacts with various parts of the skin, and the body mesh is again the only thing in game using the skin map. Bright = high emittance, dark = low emittance. Pretty useless since the effect is fairly non-existent, and weird visual glitches can occur if the map is too bright. You'll get much better result with ENB's SSS and AO.

[MonaBabii]

As an addendum:

 

Diffuse map is what it is, same for pretty much every other game, but saved in .dds format instead of tga. Find plugins for PS/gimp. DXT5 if you use alpha, DXT1 otherwise. ARGB is pointless except for skin_msn (eliminates the blockiness from DXT compression of the object space normals).

 

Specular (_s) maps are also what it is; can be attached to the alpha of the normal map to save space, concept is very similarly to the env (_m) map, but the two functions quite differently - one requiring a cubemap, while the other only requiring specularity parameters to be set up in nifskope.

 

 

Normal map (_msn) is quite different; body meshes are the only ones that use the object space normal maps in Skyrim; all other meshes utilize tangent space normals (_n). Object space normals are quite a bit easier to generate using your 3d program of choice (3ds/mudbox/zb/etc), but with the limitation of fixed space-state, fixed magnitude, and you cannot modify the maps in, say, photoshop/gimp, as you'll have to generate a new one each time you make modifications to the body mesh.

 

 

Lastly, the skin (_sk) maps. They govern how the light interacts with various parts of the skin, and the body mesh is again the only thing in game using the skin map. Bright = high emittance, dark = low emittance. Pretty useless since the effect is fairly non-existent, and weird visual glitches can occur if the map is too bright. You'll get much better result with ENB's SSS and AO.

 

Thanks a lot for this. However now I'm questioning the way I've been exporting my modded .dds files lol. So far, for textures not using Alpha channels I've been using the RGB8 format as per a GIMP guide I read. Should I start using DXT1 instead? unless we're talking about something entirely different...

 

As for the modification I wanted to apply, I believe It's now finally done I had to make the changes to the Diffuse map, but then had to modify the _s file because there was some glossiness interfering what that very precise area I modified on the skin lol.

 

If anyone wants to see what the heck was I talking about or wanted to modify, I'll add the links below encased in Spoiler tags, and leading to Imgur.

 

Be warned though. The images aren't exactly "explicit", but they do show some soft nudity and... an attachment .

 

Before:

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/AmH8Zi1.jpg

 

 

 

After:

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/CWOqV2A.jpg

 

 

 

Not a big issue, but I'm super OCD with details... so I had a crack at it

 

-

Anyway! Thanks for all the responses and helpful information!

[Aegis]

I wouldn't use uncompressed ARGB for anything but normal maps (way too wasteful in the VRAM department, and modded Skyrim with hi-resolution texture packs is extremely VRAM hungry), and even then it's still highly situational, as you only benefit when the model has a lot of small, but smooth surfaces with fairly high curvatures (think nose, cheeks, etc).

 

Otherwise, DXT1 and DXT5 imo. You don't save much going down from DXT5 to DXT3, but your alpha suffers under DXT3 if it has smooth transitions.

 

 

Edit:

 

I'm assuming that you are talking about 32bpp ARGB uncompressed.

[MonaBabii]

I wouldn't use uncompressed ARGB for anything but normal maps (way too wasteful in the VRAM department, and modded Skyrim with hi-resolution texture packs is extremely VRAM hungry), and even then it's still highly situational, as you only benefit when the model has a lot of small, but smooth surfaces with fairly high curvatures (think nose, cheeks, etc).

 

Otherwise, DXT1 and DXT5 imo. You don't save much going down from DXT5 to DXT3, but your alpha suffers under DXT3 if it has smooth transitions.

 

Gotcha! Thanks a ton

[gvman3670]

Not sure if you've seen it or not. but there is a Calyps' adult toys mod that has those kinds of "attachments", Wearing them means you get an extra enchantment slot as well (assuming you're playing and not just taking screen shots).

[MonaBabii]

Not sure if you've seen it or not. but there is a Calyps' adult toys mod that has those kinds of "attachments", Wearing them means you get an extra enchantment slot as well (assuming you're playing and not just taking screen shots).

 

I'm not sure I understand where you're trying to get D: I -am- using that mod and one of those "plug-ins" is what you see in the screenshots... Were you just informing me that I can enchant it, or...?

[gvman3670]

I was under the impression that you were making a texture/mesh that included that plugin, as a permanent attachment. I guess I don't see what it is you're referring to?

[gvman3670]

Never mind, I see the difference now.

[MonaBabii]

Never mind, I see the difference now.

 

I guess I should have removed that thing for the sake of showing what I really cracked.

[XunAmarox]

This may be useful to you: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/1188259-bslightingshaderproperty-basics/

 

As for DDS formats, if I'm working with low quality stuff I tend to do DXT1 or DXT5. For stuff that isn't crazy good quality you can still probably do DXT1/DXT5 on the color map if you want (that's the ones that are just .dds). On norms (_msn) you can probably get away with 5.6.5 or 5.5.5 if it doesn't have a lot of gradients like a body has. Don't use it on one with them though or you'll get blocky looking textures. For specs (_s) you definitely want 8.8.8/8 in most cases.

 

When in doubt go with 8.8.8 RGB or 8.8.8.8 RGBA Uncompressed. Textures are stored in VRAM uncompressed anyways so all compressing it helps is to reduce file size and it can potentially help with normal RAM which is largely non-issue. I tend to release any body textures I do as 8.8.8 or 8.8.8.8.

 

I think the skin/tone (_sk) maps needs to be in a DXT format.

 

You can get the UV layout of the texture you're working on if you open up the nif with Nifskope then right click on the node for the part you're skinning and go to Texture>Export Template then just set it as whatever size of texture you're working with. Then you can toss that into your image editing program, invert it, and set it to screen and you have pretty good guidelines for where you should be texturing. I tend to just take my stuff into Blender and do 3D painting if seams are bothering me. It's pretty easy so definitely look into it if seams become a problem for you at some point.

 

You'll go crazy trying to retexture vanilla stuff if you don't export the UV layout to see how they did it but fair warning... Most of the vanilla stuff is done sloppily and lazily with messy as hell UV's that are nigh impossible to work with. If you look at the beds for instance, they could have done a nice smooth flat square for the blanket but instead it looks like someone took all the edges then just threw them up and that's what they went with.

[MonaBabii]

 

 

This may be useful to you: http://forums.nexusmods.com/index.php?/topic/1188259-bslightingshaderproperty-basics/

 

As for DDS formats, if I'm working with low quality stuff I tend to do DXT1 or DXT5. For stuff that isn't crazy good quality you can still probably do DXT1/DXT5 on the color map if you want (that's the ones that are just .dds). On norms (_msn) you can probably get away with 5.6.5 or 5.5.5 if it doesn't have a lot of gradients like a body has. Don't use it on one with them though or you'll get blocky looking textures. For specs (_s) you definitely want 8.8.8/8 in most cases.

 

When in doubt go with 8.8.8 RGB or 8.8.8.8 RGBA Uncompressed. Textures are stored in VRAM uncompressed anyways so all compressing it helps is to reduce file size and it can potentially help with normal RAM which is largely non-issue. I tend to release any body textures I do as 8.8.8 or 8.8.8.8.

 

I think the skin/tone (_sk) maps needs to be in a DXT format.

 

You can get the UV layout of the texture you're working on if you open up the nif with Nifskope then right click on the node for the part you're skinning and go to Texture>Export Template then just set it as whatever size of texture you're working with. Then you can toss that into your image editing program, invert it, and set it to screen and you have pretty good guidelines for where you should be texturing. I tend to just take my stuff into Blender and do 3D painting if seams are bothering me. It's pretty easy so definitely look into it if seams become a problem for you at some point.

 

You'll go crazy trying to retexture vanilla stuff if you don't export the UV layout to see how they did it but fair warning... Most of the vanilla stuff is done sloppily and lazily with messy as hell UV's that are nigh impossible to work with. If you look at the beds for instance, they could have done a nice smooth flat square for the blanket but instead it looks like someone took all the edges then just threw them up and that's what they went with.

 

 

 

Thanks I don't use/am not using Nifskope for now. In fact I'm not using any 3D program. Like I said I have some experience with textures and can just edit and modify things without looking at the 3D rendering... that is, if I know exactly what files are supposed to be doing which was the whole point of the topic.

However if I ever try to take Nifskope or any other program of the sort I'll definitely come back here and take a more detailed look at that guide you posted, along with your suggestions

[XunAmarox]

Well the thing is, you won't be able to make a mesh do anything other than what is already assigned in its nif. So if you wanted to alpha out part of it to make transparency you'd have to enable that in the nif first. Or if you wanted to give it an environment map to make it have a reflection, or to give it a glossy finish you'd have to enable spec, or to make parts glow you'd have to enable that...

 

You can actually grab the Nifskope I put up here and it's already set up and ready to go so all you have to do is extract it and double click on a nif file.

[MonaBabii]

Thanks!

Argh Blender... I remember the last time I tried it I couldn't do anything lol, it was all numbers everywhere and I couldn't find a single tool. I ended up using ZBrush to make some models for SL. Is there such a plug-in for ZBrush?