(WIP) Mjana's Labyrinth

[Trykz]

So after weeks of working on getting this all rebuilt and functional again, Dawnguard is released and screws up my entire plan. There's just WAAAAAAY too much cool stuff in the Dawnguard.bsa that I'd like to use

 

So before I get restarted from almost nothing..... again...

 

I want to get some user input. But first, I want to detail just what Mjana's Labyrinth ACTUALLY will be. So here we go:

 

Mjana's Labyrinth is (or will be at least), in essence, a foundation.

 

That said, I have a ton of ideas for mods that I want to build, but don't really want to make 10+ different mods with no real connection to each other. Some of you may recall that the original Mjana's Labyrinth started out as a simple house mod, that basically ended up expanding to include a populated dungeon and a sort of "brothel", but never really evolved into much else after Bethesda broke it with the navmesh issues.

 

In a nutshell, I want to build a centralized hub that anyone can hook their mod into, whether it's a combat dungeon, tavern, brothel, torture dungeon, slavery pit, bondage/S&M room, or even a relaxing pleasure/spa type area.

 

This "hub" will be built from nothing but vanilla assets (as the original Mjana's Labyrinth was). My reasoning for this is to avoid any body/armor replacer requirements, as the NPCs will all be wearing vanilla gear, and will work with ANY body/armor replacers the user has currently installed. Essentially, you tailor the appearance of the NPCs and what they're wearing to your own preference and taste, by simply doing..... well, nothing, because they're already using whatever appearance/armor replacer you chose as a preference

 

The NPCs will belong to their own various factions, that anyone hooking in will have full access to for use in their plug-in, to protect/punish their own NPCs.

 

Moving on.....

 

I'm kind of torn over a couple of issues.

 

First, is the name. I chose the name back when I had only intended to build plug-ins for it myself. But then I asked myself, "Why stop there? Why not let anyone who chooses to do so jump onto the wagon so this REALLY evolves?"

 

To me, the name seems a bit too proprietary. I like it, but it makes this seem like less of a "community project" in some way. Or maybe it's just me.

 

Second, is a bit more complicated..... Dawnguard.

 

As I've worked my way through the DLC, I found some really neat new locations/assets that I'd like to use. BUT..... doing so will force a dependency on the DLC in order for items/animations/etc. to work properly.

 

So before I get started again, I wanted to throw up this simple poll to get some external input to help me decide which way to go. I have a few things left to finish up on the race mod i'm currently working on, and then I'll be getting started on this full-time until I have something to release. The poll choices are simple a direct. If you want to post reasons for the choice you select, please keep it civil should you find that others don't agree with them.

 

Thanks,

 

Trykz

[remois]

For the name, i like it... If I'm not mistaken, it was the name of the owner, right she will still appear? If you intend to add a bit of back-story keep it (or use something close)... A more generic name wouldn't feel as good...

 

As for Dawngard, you may want to make a separate add-on maybe expand the hub or something... But the base should be accessible to all for it to be successful...

 

Also, it's more of a question... Will it be possible to add a dungeon but not another one... Simply put choose which one we add or will it be a huge pack?

[Trykz]

For the name' date=' i like it... If I'm not mistaken, it was the name of the owner, right she will still appear? If you intend to add a bit of back-story keep it (or use something close)... A more generic name wouldn't feel as good...

 

As for Dawngard, you may want to make a separate add-on maybe expand the hub or something... But the base should be accessible to all for it to be successful...

 

Also, it's more of a question... Will it be possible to add a dungeon but not another one... Simply put choose which one we add or will it be a huge pack?

[/quote']

 

Mjana is my personal character. Basically, I used her as a presentation host. I could include her easily enough though. She's not a custom race (she's a Nord), so all I'll need to add is her body, hairstyle and clothing outfit to replicate her as an NPC. Just bear in mind that she will look slightly different depending on your choice of character customization options.

 

But success is more or less dependent on how badly people want to use the mod. And overall accessibility is certainly something I've put a lot of thought into. The popularity of the DLC was a confusing factor as well. Using DLC assets is not a decision I want to make lightly, that's for sure. Which is why I wanted to poll for input.

 

To answer your question, the Labyrinth will be a "hub" (the Master file) that "modules" (your mod) can plug into. In concept, it's no different than the way the Oblivion Lovers mods plug into the base package, which contains all of the common assets required for everything to play nicely together. So yes, you pick and choose which plug-ins you want to use. Even my own plug-ins will be completely optional for the user. Which was what I had initially intended for Redlight Palace in the original mod.

 

The lodge will still be a requirement to gain entry into the Labyrinth, and therein lies one of my very few requirements. Any module that plugs into the Labyrinth MUST NOT contain a "two-way" connection to the Tamriel worldspace as it's exit. It can exit anywhere the author wishes, but cannot be used to re-enter the Labyrinth without returning to the lodge. Here are options the plug-in author will have available for moving into and out of the Labyrinth (please pardon my cruddy Paint skills ):

 

 

 

 

My only other requirement, is that NO content depicting sexual interaction with obvious children be used. Kidnap them, smack them around, make them clean your brothel. But AI driven sexual activity between NPC adults and children WILL NOT be allowed, at all. Every plug-in will require an entry point placed inside the Hub (which is part of the Master file). Which is how I will monitor what gets connected and what doesn't. Making changes to the Master file will break ALL the other plug-ins that are built under it (much the same way the Lovers stuff works). When changes to the Master file need to be made, it will be me who makes them. Should a time come when I no longer wish to oversee that task, I'll hand it off to someone willing to carry these very minimal requirements forward.

 

I'm a pretty open-minded individual. So anything else is fair game as far as I'm concerned. But that's where I draw my line in the sand, and crossing it is the ONLY way to get your plug-in ignored completely.

 

Once I finish the master file, any necessary assets (such as those needed to add Mjana as an NPC) will be packaged into a BSA, and the .esp will become the .esm that you load into the CK to build your plug-in under. You can use whatever custom assets you want, but it would be advisable to package them into a BSA so they work properly and appear to the user as you intend.

[00ptic]

The idea where you can include several areas with this one as an anchor is pretty cool.

 

Those are reasonable requirements, even though I don't completely understand why you must travel in one direction only (it is a labyrinth, no?).

 

As for the name, Mjana should probably stay if you plan on including her. And you should definitely use Dawnguard resources if you find something cool you can do with it.

[Trykz]

The idea where you can include several areas with this one as an anchor is pretty cool.

 

Those are reasonable requirements' date=' even though I don't completely understand why you must travel in one direction only (it is a [i']labyrinth[/i], no?).

 

As for the name, Mjana should probably stay if you plan on including her. And you should definitely use Dawnguard resources if you find something cool you can do with it.

 

The one-direction requirement isn't actually one direction within the mod itself. Plug-ins can connect into each other, or back into the main hub. The one-way thing only pertains to the Tamriel worldspace. Only when a plug-in exits into Tamriel, is it required to be a one-way trip, requiring a return to the main entrance within the lodge.

 

The requirement is more or less to keep the entirety of the mod actively in use and updated as contributors see fit. Basically, it's the same in concept as the children's movie The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe from the Chronicles of Narnia series, where the wardrobe is the only entry/exit point. Except I didn't see the point in requiring that the exit be the same as the entrance, and modders can exit anywhere they like.

[« Broken ‡ Mirror »]

-fanboy scream-

 

Keep the name. Mjana is the keeper of the labyrinth anyway. As for the Dawnguard stuff, if you have anything good to add in it, you should.

 

And when it's finally out, may I help out with reporting bugs and glitches?

[Trykz]

And when it's finally out' date=' may I help out with reporting bugs and glitches?

[/quote']

 

Once I get it completed to my satisfaction, I'll be passing the file to 3 members I regularly interact with for exactly that purpose

 

And while it's being tested for any issues, I'll be working on the new Redlight Palace to go along with it when it officially releases to everyone after any necessary changes, and to confirm the mechanics of hooking into the base mod work properly and without issue.

 

I'm just finishing up a race mod for this weekend. My last for likely the next couple months or so. On Monday I'll be turning my undivided attention to this project, with nothing to distract me until it's completed

 

As for using Dawnguard assets, I'll let the poll results after the weekend will decide

[Masterpandabear]

I do not see a reason for changing name...as for dawnguard well i think you should go to what your heart desires regardless if it makes the mod dependent with the DLC or not. Personally i think you should use dawnguard assets.

[GHJKL]

Keep the name, it is already well known and stuff. And a more generic name like the underground or something would be boring.

 

About the dawnguard stuff, I have the DLC so I won't really care but is it not a possibility to create the main hub (I have no Idea how big it is or looks) and only use the dawnguard stuff in modules? To increase the possible amount of people who can/will play it, therefore increasing chance for more community modules?

 

On the other hand lots of fun stuff to use in Dawnguard.

 

But really, whatever you choose, I'm just happy that you continue this mod.

[Trykz]

Keep the name' date=' it is already well known and stuff. And a more generic name like the underground or something would be boring.

 

About the dawnguard stuff, I have the DLC so I won't really care but is it not a possibility to create the main hub (I have no Idea how big it is or looks) and only use the dawnguard stuff in modules? To increase the possible amount of people who can/will play it, therefore increasing chance for more community modules?

 

On the other hand lots of fun stuff to use in Dawnguard.

 

But really, whatever you choose, I'm just happy that you continue this mod.

[/quote']

 

Well, I think the name issue is easily resolved (even for me) simply by adding my Mjana character as an NPC, patrolling between the Lodge and Hub. Giving her a suitable patrol package would be easy. I haven't messed with dialogue in the CK yet, but I may have a look at it and experiment a bit.

 

The thing about adding Dawnguard material to the plug-ins but not to the base mod, is that as a clear majority starts to update their Skyrim and add it later, is that I only get once chance to use that stuff before releasing the Master for others to build under. The other issue is the potential for some users to mistakenly add a plug-in to the mod that uses Dawnguard assets their game doesn't have access to yet. Meshes and stuff with just cause a CTD when they load it up. But if it's scripted stuff, it has a huge potential for breaking their game completely.

 

That's what has me torn over this decision. I either have to instill the ability to use DLC content now, which clears the way for anyone building under the Master to use as well, OR, I have to leave it out and restrict plug-ins from adding anything that uses Dawnguard's scripting, or other material that has the potential to break stuff that can't be easily removed by the user.

 

Either way I suppose it's a sacrifice one way or the other. Sacrifice potential users now, or sacrifice Dawnguard material now AND later to preserve the integrity of the master file, and the plug-ins built under it. Altering a plug-in is one thing, but altering a master file can really start to break things. So once I have it complete, bug-free, and released for use by others to build under, I'll definitely NOT want to make many changes to it later.

 

So we'll see what the poll results show Sunday night, right before I get started on Monday.

[GHJKL]

there's just WAAAAAAY too much cool stuff in the Dawnguard.bsa that I'd like to use

 

I'm not a frequent modder and have no real idea of the functionallity that dawnguard brings. What would be possible with dawnguard that can't be done without? Or other things you were thinking about when you were talking about "too much cool stuff" ?

[Trykz]

there's just WAAAAAAY too much cool stuff in the Dawnguard.bsa that I'd like to use

 

I'm not a frequent modder and have no real idea of the functionallity that dawnguard brings. What would be possible with dawnguard that can't be done without? Or other things you were thinking about when you were talking about "too much cool stuff" ?

 

There's tons. Some of the armors for instance. Or the new vampire abilities. Speaking of vampires' date=' have I ever mentioned that Mjana is, in fact, a vampire? She doesn't have the sunken cheeks and other uglifying garbage, because I removed the overlay in the CK long ago LOL

 

But yes, she's almost always been a vampire. I never really liked vampire play until I tried Better Vampires. So maybe now Mjana can get past level 15

 

Moreover are the locations, creatures, and items that can't even be rendered without the DLC installed and active in the CK. Then there's the scripted stuff and new dialogue lines.

 

But while we're on the subject of Mjana, I got a little head start today:

 

[img']http://webpages.charter.net/trykzy/TrykzPics/MistressMjana.jpg[/img]

 

It's almost scary LOL

 

If the room they're in looks familiar, it's the Chinese Castle Vjarkell mod. I stripped that mod of it's interiors and assets, built a new exterior for them in the vanilla Tamriel worldspace, removed all the Chinese bits, dumped out the teleport spell script, and renamed Mjana's Castle

 

I could easily use it for Mjana's Labyrinth, because it no longer has any Dawnguard dependencies (except for a few statues, but I would need to thoroughly scour it's clutter and other assets to be certain there's nothing else). Using it would save a ton of time, but I don't know.

 

Anyhoo, I'm gonna finish this last race mod and get started on the core of the Labyrinth.

[Trykz]

So I finished the Stygian race mod late last night (which I'll post for download later this evening), and fiddled around with the Mjana NPC some more.

 

Currently, she's a fully fleshed out Innkeeper/Merchant, and will rent the player the entire second floor of the castle for 10 gold a night. If I include the stuff I've been playing around with in Mjana's Labyrinth (should the poll determine that Dawnguard stuff will be in), then Mjana's Castle will be the player's first stop on their way to the core of the Labyrinth as it exists right now.

 

If it turns out that the poll determines Dawnguard stuff won't be in, then I'll just need to pull out any remaining DLC assets inside the castle, and put suitable replacements in their place. After looking through all the cells, there are quite a few Dawnguard exclusive statues, but I didn't easily find much else by just walking around checking things out.

 

I'll try to get some more pics up later today, so you can see things as they are right now.

[ibanez85]

Keep the name it's already known.

about dawnguard stuff, do what you will I believe you will make an awesome stuff

[Trykz]

Keep the name it's already known.

about dawnguard stuff' date=' do what you will I believe you will make an awesome stuff

[/quote']

 

As it stands right now, near 80% of you want the name to stay. Which is fine with me, as now my Mjana character will actually be an NPC asset within the mod, and greatly relieves the proprietary nature of naming it after something users couldn't actually interact with.

 

As for the Dawnguard assets, almost 70% of the votes say go ahead and use it. But I won't be too hasty with that. A lot can change in a day. So I'll leave the poll open until tomorrow night. My Stygian race mod is finished and available in my release thread, so I'm basically just sitting on my hands fiddling around with making NPCs for use in the mod.

 

On another note, the cells I copied out of Vjarkell Castle are LOADED with problems. Nothing major, just things I've been fixing as I go, and I'm certainly running into quite a few. The lighting is especially problematic, as much of it causes major shadow striping on the bodies of the player character AND all of the NPCs. So I've spent quite a bit of time thus far just swapping out the lighting types (vanilla Breezehome has the same issue, which is caused by the light emitter above the fire pit in the living room).

 

I also need to figure out why the mannequin's are all found "walking" to their platforms when you first enter any cell they occupy. Every single one of them has an "XMarkerHeading" on the platforms they're supposed to remain on. I'm assuming that the author wanted to use them to face the mannequins a certain way. Mannequins are actually a "race" in Skyrim, which is required for them to display armor properly, because they use the same body part types as the player.

 

As far as that goes, I should have everything fixed by the time I close the poll tomorrow night. So if I end up using these cells, then Mjana's Castle will replace the former FallsView Lodge. The exterior location however, will remain relatively unchanged. It's still across from Hillgrund's Tomb, and up the mountain path from Fort Amol. Right above the downed tree bridge that spans the gorge.

 

I wanted to get some pics up tonight, but I didn't get the time. It's probably best to hold off on them anyway, at least until tomorrow night.

[redwulfen]

I would say go ahead and use the Dawnguard material, considering the DLC's popularity it shouldn't create many problems for people.

 

In the end, whichever way you go it is without a doubt going to be an amazing mod.

[GHJKL]

I have dawnguard and voted against inluding it because I always hated (DLC) requirements on mods. I have no idea how many have skyrim but not dawnguard, and how often those that don't have it still play skyrim.

 

Still, I'm not really dissapointed because I suspect that the modders all/mostly have dawnguard. So awesome content would be possible, the unenthusiastic leechers that don't have dawnguard, I could care less about them.

 

And also if you are gonna use dawnguard content you probably are gonna get lots of people that are going to blame you for their inability to read. if that happens, please don't leave trykz.

 

(Maybe you could insert a check in the mod. if you do not have dawnguard the fallsview manor will not open the door (need key to unlock/ will not teleport you inside) or will transport the player to a place 1000 meters above land and let them fall to death

[watshisface]

It seems to me that it would be so much easier and safer to use the base Skyrim.bsa for the main ESM project and add Dawnguard bits in as ESP's for the mod. this would free up the mod to be used by everyone and the selective dawnguard bits can still be included without limiting the number of people who can enjoy the mod.

the Lovers collection did it for oblivion and it was a great feature, then if people want or dont want to use parts of your mod they can be selective too.

[Trykz]

I would say go ahead and use the Dawnguard material' date=' considering the DLC's popularity it shouldn't create many problems for people.

 

In the end, whichever way you go it is without a doubt going to be an amazing mod.

[/quote']

 

That's the thing.

 

Using the Dawnguard assets and scripted material would make it that much better. And if people missed the big "DAWNGUARD REQUIRED" at the top of the description and it breaks their game, well, that's quite frankly their own problem. But if I don't use it now, I may not get another chance once it's finished without breaking everything built under it.

 

But then, as watshisface points out, it sacrifices potential users now. Which is where I have to wrestle with the pros and cons of either direction. Since I have no idea how many of those potential users plan on eventually getting the DLC (and possibly using Mjana's Labyrinth and the add-ons built under it), it's a toss up. But in the worst case, they simply can't use it "right now" because of the DLC requirement. I was never really big on DLC requirements for mods either. But then, most DLCs didn't really include so much cool new stuff in one package. I'm certainly not disappointed in what I got for my 20 bucks.

 

Since I didn't have the current sales numbers readily available for Skyrim and Dawnguard individually, I polled it to all of you to decide. And as the poll stands right now, it seems I'll be using the DLC's content in the foundation of Mjana's Labyrinth. Hopefully it generates enough hype to entice those who don't yet have the DLC at the time I release this to go ahead and buy it.

 

On another note, I found 3 unused test cells that it seems were added when they released the DLC. And I have some pretty neat ideas for their use. More on that later.....

[00ptic]

Yeah, that is a problem. Of course you want the mod to be the best you can make it, but I really have no idea how many players of Skyrim don't have Dawnguard. It could be a lot. That being said, I still think you should use it since it would be a pain to integrate it at a later time.

[Trykz]

So be it.....

 

The current time where I am is nearly 23:08, Saturday night, August 18th. And this poll is called as of right now.

 

At this time, more than 80% say keep the name. So shall it remain.

Also at this time, more than 70% of you say that you believe the Dawnguard dependency is of little concern for the future of this project. So be it as well.

 

So lets get this started.....

 

I played around with one of the test cells I mentioned earlier, which I've dubbed the "Halls of Oddity". This cell has about 10 sizable rooms, with plenty of space for lots of neat shit. Like what I spent the last couple of hours building.

 

A miniature town, frozen in time:

 

 

 

 

And that's just one corner of it

Every miniature house will have a working door that suitable mod types will plug into. One already does in fact, to a simple house interior that the player can use

 

There's some other cool stuff I threw into a few of the other rooms as well:

 

 

 

 

This is only the beginning. Mjana's feeling pretty devious......

 

On that note, I'll be ousting this thread and starting a fresh one tomorrow night. I'll be posting shit-tons of pics to that thread, and moving the pics in this thread to it.