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NWN 2 difficulty + stats

Guest Pentagon

By Guest Pentagon,
in Adult Gaming

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Guest Pentagon

Guest Pentagon

Posted
Posted

Hey there,

 

I don't know if there's many people interested in Adult NWN's but it's the medium that i'm currently playing about with.

 

My issue is simple, I intend to fully use in dialogue skills, the classic bluff/diplomacy/intimidate options. As well as perhaps other uses, tumble/strength to escape etc. 

 

However, my issue is one of balance. Players will max out certain skills on character creation and keep them levelled up suitably from there.

 

The issue is I don't want players to auto pass constantly, I want there to be some element of, am I good enough etc. But there's also an emphasis of you want to encourage player choice and not require 18 dex etc. 

 

Any idea's of how to keep this balance competitive but still interesting.

Pentagon

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Hey there,

 

I don't know if there's many people interested in Adult NWN's but it's the medium that i'm currently playing about with.

 

My issue is simple, I intend to fully use in dialogue skills, the classic bluff/diplomacy/intimidate options. As well as perhaps other uses, tumble/strength to escape etc. 

 

However, my issue is one of balance. Players will max out certain skills on character creation and keep them levelled up suitably from there.

 

The issue is I don't want players to auto pass constantly, I want there to be some element of, am I good enough etc. But there's also an emphasis of you want to encourage player choice and not require 18 dex etc. 

 

Any idea's of how to keep this balance competitive but still interesting.

Pentagon

 

Hey There Pentagon.

 

I have put a lot of thought into this concept..

 

The general idea is - Don't always support every skill.. They can only max so many things, So force the player to decide if they want to be a Diplomacy God or a Jack of all trades.. Following that design path.. Here are a few general ideas to get the wheels turning.

 

1) Non-Deterministic Checks - Make it so checks have a little RNG.. Add a little dice roll between -4 and +4.. So if they are within 4 (higher or lower) they have a chance to succeed or fail. This is not too punishing because you are also allowing them to squeak by with a lower skill.. BUT this could encourage Save Scumming.

 

2) Remove Unnecessary Skills - Simply put, if your module isn't going to give a certain skill enough "air time" just remove it from the skills.2da.. This includes crafting skills if you aren't using them or Intimidation / Bluff / Diplomacy skills if you aren't going to give options to use all 3.

 

3) Have Multiple Solutions to Quests - Allow for the player to Talk / Sex / Kill / Sneak their way through quests. So if they come to a hard Intimidation Check they can't pass, they have 3 other options of completion without feeling like they built the "wrong character"

 

4) Don't make or break a quest on Skill checks - Create a quest objective and allow the player to plot their path to that solution, maybe a diplomacy check doesn't solve a quest but gains you entrance to one criteria of that quest, make skill checks a piece of the puzzle.

 

 

Thanks!

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Guest Pentagon

Guest Pentagon

Posted
Posted

Hey there Trinital Mod, 

 

Nice blog, 

You have pretty much said the conclusions that I was coming to. I dislike save scumming so might struggle with that option. 

 

But in addition to the 2/3 which i entirely agree with,

 

I am thinking i'll set myself a difficult guideline. With major quests having different outcomes of different difficult. So whilst there is a easy-medium way of completing the quest there is a fiendishly hard way, that is like a bonus easter egg, IF you can do it. But this would require in addition to the core open lock/bluff etc maybe an appraise/lore etc as well. 

 

I want to have quest outcomes that do feel really satisfying if you can navigate it, but i think it's clear that these difficulties have to be 'optional' means for a quest and not the only one. 

Equally, need to do some work around making rogues not hte only choice... unless i want that!

 

Pentagon

 

 

P.S: Glad to see the enthusiasm, I thought it might fall on deaf ears- if I can get it sorted... i'll be sure to let my friends here know! Could even have a blog...

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Hey there Trinital Mod, 

 

Nice blog, 

You have pretty much said the conclusions that I was coming to. I dislike save scumming so might struggle with that option. 

 

But in addition to the 2/3 which i entirely agree with,

 

I am thinking i'll set myself a difficult guideline. With major quests having different outcomes of different difficult. So whilst there is a easy-medium way of completing the quest there is a fiendishly hard way, that is like a bonus easter egg, IF you can do it. But this would require in addition to the core open lock/bluff etc maybe an appraise/lore etc as well. 

 

I want to have quest outcomes that do feel really satisfying if you can navigate it, but i think it's clear that these difficulties have to be 'optional' means for a quest and not the only one. 

Equally, need to do some work around making rogues not hte only choice... unless i want that!

 

Pentagon

 

 

P.S: Glad to see the enthusiasm, I thought it might fall on deaf ears- if I can get it sorted... i'll be sure to let my friends here know! Could even have a blog...

 

This can quickly spiral out of control. Try to have one or two endings to a quest.. Instead of trying to plan 4 different outcomes, try to plan four different solutions to the same outcome.

 

Example:

Imagine a player needs to infiltrate a mansion and kill the owner. Do they kick the door down and kill everyone? Do they bluff their way past the guards, disguised as a maid? Do they sneak in through the second floor window and kill him quietly?

 

 

These are all meaningful choices but don't require you to branch the entire narration based on different outcomes. Also if the player doesn't have sneaking.. or a low bluff skill.. you always provide a way of being successful.

 

They get to pick the fantasy they wanted to play and you don't tear your hair out.

 

Now of course you can have multiple solutions - kudos if you are willing..!

But it exponentially gets out of control if you don't draw a line in the sand somewhere.

 

 

Equally, need to do some work around making rogues not hte only choice... unless i want that!

 

Doing class specific modules is always a favorite for players..

Rogues are a fun archetype because of all the different skills they can use..

 

But I think Mages and possibly Bards have just as much potential.. Depending on what your goal is.

 

Whatever you do - Make it an adult module please! :D

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Guest Pentagon

Guest Pentagon

Posted
Posted

Hmm yes, I was thinking it would be more a case of: you need to stop baddy, but to stop baddy AND rescue hostages might be really hard. So not much tangiable difference to outcome, maybe an extra merchant or whatever. 

 

But warning well taken

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

Hmm yes, I was thinking it would be more a case of: you need to stop baddy, but to stop baddy AND rescue hostages might be really hard. So not much tangiable difference to outcome, maybe an extra merchant or whatever. 

 

But warning well taken

 

I think your idea is very interesting.

 

Generally I think players rarely expect or notice when they received a "Special" condition.. or if they think there might be one.. they will Save scum for it.

 

Which is why I tend to avoid a "This is the best way to solve a quest" Scenario but I think you have a pretty cool idea.. maybe make the pay off far enough down the road that they can't just reload for it.

 

:lol:

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Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted

only barely related to this thread, my apologies for a mild hijack. Nostalgia got to me so I snagged NWN2 off gog.com, where does one get the good mods for this now adays?

 

There is nothing out there that is "Adult" to the extent of NWN1 modules..

 

If you want some good modules though..

 

 

Some Mods Are "Adult-Light" Usually by Claudius33..

 

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remois

remois

Posted
Posted

You could also decide to make skills affect in slow part and use traits:

It's a stupid exemple just to illustrate:

You'll have a quest with 3 outcome among the reward, depending on how you completed it (and your gender maybe) you would have a:

1 seducing a same sex npc (same sex +3 interraction  with the same sex)

2 seducing a different sex npc ( straight +3 interraction  with the oposed sex)

3 did both (bi +1 interaction with all)

 

Then in all your adult related interactions your skills would matter but just enough to tip the scale when the result would be on the edge.

It's rough and would require some more polish but that's how I would go without totally throwing away the skills and not make them matter too much (also the choice of deity could help define the base interaction level...)

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Thickthighsmallfeet

Thickthighsmallfeet

Posted
Posted

I admit that I have no idea as to how the checks work but assuming you can have a combination of stat and perk check you could do something similar to what the Shadowrun games did with etiquette.

 

Learning an etiquette lets you understand and blend in. It lets you speak to them in a confident and comfortable manner. Think of it as a earning a qualification in acting for a particular way. If you have the Gangs Etiquette you can comfortably converse with gang members and better convince them that you are one of them. Same for scholars or mages. It lets you understand the intricacies of their society without actually belonging to it and gives you a second chance to pass through dialogue.

 

So for instance you can unlock speech perks at different levels of charisma. Each perk lets you sweet talk in different situations based on cultural study of the perk. So you can have a stat check/roll based on your charms but if you already have the relevant perk you can just have the option to by pass that way.

 

Eg. You are confronted by necromancer acolytes guarding the inner sanctum

1. Fight them

2. Rush them (dex roll)

3. Talk to them and convince them to let you through (charisma roll)

4. Use your knowledge of magic to pretend you belong (perk check)

5. Ask party member to talk to them (leads to choice of a die roll for success or you can jump them to get a head start on the battle).

 

Everything leads to you going inside but it is a matter of how you do it. If you talk them into leaving maybe they can give you some useful information you can use later such as where a hostage is kept or who has the keys or maybe they'll even give you a key as they leave.

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Guest Pentagon

Guest Pentagon

Posted
Posted

Interesting ideas, its actually the conversation usage that makes me choose NWN2 (along with irritance that the NWN1 adult success was never replicated)

 

The actual use of skills is pretty simple: you either have it as a

 

I try and move the rock - check strength - give a success or fail answer.

 

The alternative is an approach where the option only appears if your good enough. So only if you have enough strength does the option appear but then you know it'll succeed.

 

Though you could mix the two, you need a lower number to try it as to succeed but that seems overly complicated.

 

I plan to use both: so if you've got high enough perception to see a clue I'll just give it to you.

 

More active attempts: your being grappled- strength or dexterity to escape you don't know what the DC is but your welcome to attempt either and succeed or fail.

 

The issue is, in a campaign like dance with rogues I'm always going to max out open lock and hide and have a high dexterity. So how does the author make an encounter testing those hard they can require you have the max possible but that as said isn't always an issue.

 

The solution is to have more exotic requirements, to bluff the guard you also need craft armour to make the disguise you need, to hide you need a good enough spot score to see the place to hide.

 

This makes character gen harder- as you have to diversify your skills, but also makes them more satisfying.

 

Key is that you incorporate multiple solutions so not to punish not taking a skill but rather encourage diversity / but I do think your Shadkw run idea does raise some interesting notions

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tacomarine

tacomarine

Posted
Posted

So first let me give a resounding vote to do this, plus a few hundred hacked votes and a few thousand from my child army XD

that being said...

 

I agree on what you seem to want to do, using both outright pass/fail checks and hidden checks. What I'd like to know is how important you want any of these checks to be. Do you just want hidden goodies or go so far as to neutralize a boss with a good check? What I mean to ask is how prevalent are these checks going to be and what will be the spectrum of consequences for them?

 

EDIT: and I also meant to ask what the premise of the module will be, like DWR was built with a rouge class in mind so the player knew that rougeish skills were better suited to it. Will there be options for the full spectrum of skills or will it be skewed or focused on one class or approach?
 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Pentagon

Guest Pentagon

Posted
Posted

Hey man, 

 

Sorry i've not seen this, was not paying attention. 

 

It really depends, there's an aspect of me which wants it to be a puzzle game. Solve problem- there are 5 plausible means, and if you don't have the skills to do any. Well fight your way through. The other part wants to have a more engaging combat side to it. I do however feel that some bosses should be circumventable- as there's nothing worse than saying, you do all that work and the boss breaks out of the trap fight him anyway... Though good compromises are, you get to fight the boss without his +3 flaming longsword or get a surprise round or whatever. 

 

What I sort of know:

- The game will be a collection of encounters, nearly all if not all encounters will have skill checks. These encounters will guide an overall story, with multiple outcomes and feeds in and out. 

- I know that there will definitely be easter eggs that have varied and difficult skill requirements. Though these will not be dependent to finish. 

- Setting dependent, once i've made some more progress, I'll possibly post a proper spoiler to tease people! But In the meantime i'll hold cards to my chest. However, I am a fan of readme tips suggesting which skills are more useful.

- However, to answer the question. Whilst you could have a setting without rogues in mind, 36 starting skill points makes them pretty good at any setting! It is my intention to have support for spellcasters at the least. However, this may be something I look to extend to. 

 

Pentagon

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