Fixing Skeleton Deformations (Crushed/Torpedo Breasts etc...)

[blabba]

Updated Post with a new Max File for the updated XPMSE 2.14 skeleton.

 

New Version *should* be animation friendly and contian all animateable bones.

 

Max file should work for 3dsmax 2010+

 

Edit: Sorry previous upload was incorrect, the new rar file (around 43 kb) is correct version!

[zzz72w3r]

I hope this is the right place to ask because I've read all the posts and it seems the discussion is more for modders than users.  I am just looking for an education.

 

Specifically I learned that DreamGirl has only 4024 vertices vs. UNPB of 6850.  Textures are almost identical for both body types yet with same skeleton DreamGirl is famous for having the least animation/pose deformation while UNP families are terrible at shoulder/elbow/knee.  This was my experience when I started playing with various body mesh as well.  I read it's the topology so I did some learning on my own and these videos are great tutorials but still not sure why DreamGirl can achieve so much more with so much less?  Why would someone commit so much more vertices without paying attention to topology in the case of UNP?

 

https://cgcookie.com/blender/2012/11/28/why-topology-matters-modeling/ 

 

I also read somewhere that UNP deformation issues cannot be fixed without obsoleting every armor/cloth made for them which is why it was never fixed.  Why is that? 

[blabba]

I hope this is the right place to ask because I've read all the posts and it seems the discussion is more for modders than users.  I am just looking for an education.

 

Specifically I learned that DreamGirl has only 4024 vertices vs. UNPB of 6850.  Textures are almost identical for both body types yet with same skeleton DreamGirl is famous for having the least animation/pose deformation while UNP families are terrible at shoulder/elbow/knee.  This was my experience when I started playing with various body mesh as well.  I read it's the topology so I did some learning on my own and these videos are great tutorials but still not sure why DreamGirl can achieve so much more with so much less?  Why would someone commit so much more vertices without paying attention to topology in the case of UNP?

 

https://cgcookie.com/blender/2012/11/28/why-topology-matters-modeling/ 

 

I also read somewhere that UNP deformation issues cannot be fixed without obsoleting every armor/cloth made for them which is why it was never fixed.  Why is that? 

 

Topology is somewhat important, in terms of skinning it's not too big a deal but if handled correctly in certain places it can help a LOT with certain trouble spots of traditional linear blending skinning (what most games use).

 

If you make 'face islands' along areas of high bending, you can minimize the skinning problems of linear blending somewhat. (Such common areas are The elbows/knees and hand/finger joints) Where one side of the joint that's being bent keeps it's stretching minimal (the outside of the elbow/knees) and the other side shows massive deformity (the insides of the knees/elbow). So if you put a face island on the outside of the bend it'll help mitigate the face deformity of elbow/knee joints.

 

As for your question about why modders commit more vertices without paying attention to topology, the answer is because they don't know. Most modders are just hobbyists, and they only learn the bare minimum info required or just don't care (it's time consuming stuff to get good topology models)

 

It also comes down to skill, I can speak what I want about topology, but hell I suck at it the most probably. And if anyone bothers to open up citrus heads for male/khajit/argonian they'll notice it's not too good.

 

As for UNPB, I think it was made by xp32 originally? And well... let's say xp32 did a lot of things that shouldn't have been done (but they also did a lot of things to help out the community!) But basically I'm willing to wager that xp32 took normal UNP and just added a few vertex loops/subdivided here and there and sculpted a shape out.

 

Your last statement is 100% false. You can fix the skinning of UNP by a lot I wager with some tweaking of the blending in the skin itself. It won't affect the clothes at all. Because clothes contain their own body with their own bad skinning. It won't obsolete them, but you won't get the superior skinning either. Though that could be rectified with some automation scripts and some time.

 

Also, it's a huge shame that the vast majority of armour modders don't know the importance of skinning. Which is why we have the skeleton deformations problem, and also why a lot of custom armours and stuff have terrible skinning (they just copy skinning from vanilla or they copy the skinning of a custom body that was skinned incorrectly or in turn was also copied from vanilla)

 

P.S. your link doesn't work lol

[zzz72w3r]

Sorry, here is the proper link:

 

http://cgcookie.com/blender/category/tutorials/modeling/topology-modeling/

 

My head is kind of spinning right now.  Pretty much all discussions regarding bodies have devolved into static aesthetic and armor availability and no one ever compares and explains deformation properly.  I just assumed that DreamGirl is able to deform so well because it has a more detailed wire frame and that is obviously not true since UNPB has far more vertices.

 

So, is CITRUS going to deform well (using DreamGirl at the moment)? 

[blabba]

Sorry, here is the proper link:

 

http://cgcookie.com/blender/category/tutorials/modeling/topology-modeling/

 

My head is kind of spinning right now.  Pretty much all discussions regarding bodies have devolved into static aesthetic and armor availability and no one ever compares and explains deformation properly.  I just assumed that DreamGirl is able to deform so well because it has a more detailed wire frame and that is obviously not true since UNPB has far more vertices.

 

So, is CITRUS going to deform well (using DreamGirl at the moment)? 

 

CITRUS will deform better than most other bodies out there yes.

 

Dunno if it'll be better than dreamgirl or lady body though.

 

I can guarantee pretty much the best combination of Breast/Butt/Pregnancy weighting for use with HDT though.

It also has the most kick-ass hand and feet meshes ever. (The high poly halo UNP ones are just overkill and really worthless IMO)

 

And yes that link is an excellent intro to the study of topology and why it's important. If you look at the hand demo he goes over the whole face island thing i was talking about (the knuckles in the hand on the top side, but on the side that bends the faces and verts are kept close to each other)

[CEO 0S]

Hi Blabba,
Thanks for this guide, I am having a problem could you please help me?

 

For info I am using the 2.14 XPMSE skeleton and I tried your fix on the UNPB 2-5g body. Without your edit I noticed a short break between the neck and the torso. I applied the steps in your guide using the max file and on untick and tick of "always deform" on the skin modifier I noticed a slight shift and the body neck and head did align in game.

 

This caused a new problem where the hands were now separated from the arms by a short gap. I figured the next step was to tick and untick the deform on the hands but while it did make them do a slight shift they were still not lined up. 
 
I could just move the hands or the arms to line up but I want to make this body as correct as possible and perhaps I made a mistake somewhere in this process. Would you be able to help me get this straightened out please with either what I'm doing wrong or the best way to correct it?
 
Here is an image of the seam as it appears in 3DS and it's the same in game.

 

[blabba]

 

I could just move the hands or the arms to line up but I want to make this body as correct as possible and perhaps I made a mistake somewhere in this process. Would you be able to help me get this straightened out please with either what I'm doing wrong or the best way to correct it?

 

You didn't mess up.

 

Whoever originally created the mesh and relied on skin deforms to fix the alignment messed up.

 

Now it's up to you to line that up properly.

[CEO 0S]

Thanks for the reply and being so helpful, nice to know I'm on the right track.

 

The question I'm left with then: I'm assuming ticking deform should be applied to all parts of the body, feet, hands, torso, to see if it has an effect but I'm curious if I should make the correction by tugging the body models arms or by moving the hands, vector snap seems to lock it in nice with either approach. I guess either way adjustments are going to have to be made to armors no matter what although it seems like leaving the hands in the standard spot would be more universal then the arms getting tugged especially for rings, and certain gloves.

 

Thanks again!

[blabba]

Thanks for the reply and being so helpful, nice to know I'm on the right track.

 

The question I'm left with then: I'm assuming ticking deform should be applied to all parts of the body, feet, hands, torso, to see if it has an effect but I'm curious if I should make the correction by tugging the body models arms or by moving the hands, vector snap seems to lock it in nice with either approach. I guess either way adjustments are going to have to be made to armors no matter what although it seems like leaving the hands in the standard spot would be more universal then the arms getting tugged especially for rings, and certain gloves.

 

Thanks again!

 

Usually not a big problem to leave warped skinning on the arms/feet unless you notice their scaled wrong or animate improperly.

 

But yea, you can go about and fix them that way. You may or may not have to do the same for the gauntlets/boots as well.

[xgcsentielxs]

Hello,

I did a horrible job my first time at modding skyrim, it just barely worked, and I had problems quite quickly, before even getting to Riverwood.

 

After that experience, I took most of a month just learning everything I could about the abc's of modding.  Lots of youtube with Gopher, lots of walking through STEP .. and learning about the tools TES5Edit, Wrye Bash, FNIS, and more.

I did a lot of study into Mod Organizer and love it.  I played with different mods, and found this great site, and learned much here.

I worked hard to get all the mods I liked to work together.  I was running great for a couple weeks now, with only one issue, that I could overlook.  That was, that after a female model was killed, she lay there with breasts that were all stretched out.   As I said, I could overlook it since everything else was working superbly.

I had several NPC's naked, using all manner of different mods, most of them found on this site rather than nexus of course, and had no problems.

 

Without changing anything, about a week into play, I ran into an NPC merchant who's breasts were a little deformed. .... i.e. her shirt was pushed out with the model texture of breasts that were a little "torpedoed" .. haha

Then, as of a day ago, out of the blue, I picked up a new companion, and while using sexlab to have sex with her, she removed her cloth's to reveal that her breasts were stretched to massive lengths ... She is from a follower mod that is one of the most downloaded on nexus, and her fellow members from the download gave no issue before this.  

I decided to read up and spent the yesterday reading up on all I could.  And found this thread.  But since the link for 3dsmax that you gave only lets you download 2015, and that you have to use 2012, I thought that perhaps I'd just download the new version of XPMSE here, replacing the old, and see if that did the trick before delving into yet another modding tool like 3dsmax.  (which I searched for and couldn't find out where to get 2012 other than a bit torrent which I'm loath to do.)

 

Unfortunately, now my saves are all telling me they are missing RaceMenuPluginXPMSE.esp    ...... I have searched around, and looked for it diligently, hoping there would be somewhere I could get a patch perhaps, to no avail.  If you could be of some assistance, I would be most grateful.

[blabba]

Updated the 3dsMax skeleton reference for the newest 2.43 skeleton.

 

Added bones:

FLESH 2.0 bones

Kept all weapon based bones and category title bones

 

Using this skeleton you should be able to correctly open up CITRUS/Flesh 2.0 skinned meshes.

[blabba]

Updated 3dsmax resource so that your import layer by default will not be a hidden layer and is now visible.

 

Sorry about that xD

[kain667]

I am having this issue now with the latest version of the extended skeleton and unpb body.  Is it possible to fix this with just nifscope?