Erzsebet Bathory

[Myst42]

Totally off topic, but this is the place for it...

Just a historical debate if anyone's interested...

 

I'm sure some of you must have heard of the infamous Blood Countess

Among her "doings" it is said she murdered more than six hundred young girls, drank their blood and brutally abused and mutilated them. It is said she bathed in blood to remain beautiful and young and she was a witch, a devil worshiper and in resume an abomination. That's the popular belief and she even is accepted as the most notorious and prolific female mass murderer/serial killer.

 

History:

 

 

"Born in 1560, the offspring of two branches of the Bathory family (whose intermarriage might explain several cases of lunacy in the dynasty), Elizabeth was married at the age of 15 to Ferenc Nadasdy and assumed responsibility for their vast estates, which she inherited upon his death in 1604. To the chagrin of her sons-in-law and the Palatine, she refused to surrender any of them. Worse still, from a Habsburg standpoint, the election of her nephew, “Crazy” Gabor Bathory, as Prince of Transylvania raised the prospect of a Bathory alliance that would upset the balance of power and border defenses on which Habsburg rule depended.

In December 1610 the Palatine of Hungary, Count Thurzo raided her residence at Cachtice, and claimed to have caught her literally red-handed. Under torture, her associates testified to scores of secret burials at Sarvar, Cachtice and elsewhere, and the Countess was immediately walled up in a room at Cachtice, where she died four years later in 1614"

 

 

 

The Blood Countess:

 

 

The Accusations

According to the testimony against her, Bathory’s initial victims were local peasant girls, many of whom were lured to Cachtice by offers of well-paid work as maidservants in the castle. Later she is said to have begun to kill daughters of lower gentry, who were sent to her by their parents to learn courtly etiquette. Abductions were said to have occurred as well. Additionally presented at the trial, there were accusations of pagan practices and witchcraft.

 

The pagan practices and witchcraft were described as follows:

 

"Her tastes were of a certain slant, and consequently she began to gather about herself (as her ample financial resources readily accommodated) persons of peculiar and sinister arts. These she welcomed into her presence, affording them commodious lodging and lavish attention to each of their most singular needs and interests. Among them were those who claimed to be witches, sorcerers, seers, wizards, alchemists, and others who practiced the most depraved deeds in league with the Devil and which are too painful to mention. They taught her their crafts in intimate detail and she was enthralled. But learning such unspeakable things was not enough."

 

The following examples provide a flavor of the testimony recorded at the trial of Elizabeth’s accomplices:

 

"…a 12-year-old girl named Pola somehow managed to escape from the castle. But Dorka, aided by Helena Jo, caught the frightened girl by surprise and brought her forcibly back to Cachtice Castle. Clad only in a long white robe, Countess Elizabeth greeted the girl upon her return. The countess was in another of her rages. She advanced on the 12-year-old child and forced her into a kind of cage. This particular cage was built like a huge ball, too narrow to sit in, too low to stand in. Once the girl was inside, the cage was suddenly hauled up by a pulley and dozens of short spikes jutted into the cage. Pola tried to avoid being caught on the spikes, but Ficzko manoeuvered the ropes so that the cage shifted from side to side. Pola’s flesh was torn to pieces."

 

One accomplice testified that on some days Elizabeth had stark-naked girls laid flat on the floor of her bedroom and tortured them so much that one could scoop up the blood by the pailful afterwards, and so Elizabeth had her servants bring up cinders in order to cover the pools of blood. A young maid-servant who did not endure the tortures well and died very quickly was written out by the countess in her diary with the laconic comment ‘She was too small…’

 

Some of the more consistent themes to emerge from the testimony against Elizabeth revolved around the following practices:

- often fatal surgery on victims

- starving of victims

- extensive sexual abuse (Elizabeth is said to have been bisexual)

- severe beatings over extended periods of time

- burning and mutilation of the hands and often the face and genitals

- biting the flesh off of faces, arms and other body parts

- freezing to death

The use of needles and scissors were also mentioned by the collaborators in court.

 

Despite lurid descriptions of bathing in blood that were bandied about following the trial, no actual mention of bathing in blood is to be found in the records of the trial itself.

 

Below is an example of the tone of the stories describing Elizabeth Bathory’s bathing habits:

 

"When back in the castle, each batch of young girls would be hung, alive and naked, upside-down by chains wrapped around their ankles. Their throats would be slit and all of their blood drained for Elizabeth’s bath, to be taken while the heat of their young bodies still remained in the thickening and sticky crimson pool.

And every now and then, a really lovely young girl would be obtained. As a special treat, Elizabeth would drink the child’s blood: at first from a golden flask, but later, as her taste for it increased, directly from the stream, as the writhing and whimpering body hung from the rafters, turning pale."

 

 

 

The myth grew so big that she is even know to be one of the inspirations for Dracula (novel" by Bram Stoker. That and of course, the real Dracula, known as Vlad Draculea III or Vlad Tepes "The Impaler", known to be really really cruel with his punishments and his way to rule, but also known to be a national hero in Romania, who defended their land against the Turks.

 

BUT:

 

There's another theory

 

The Conspiracy:

 

It is said she could have been the victim of an elaborate political conspiracy against her by the Palatine of Hungary, Count Thurzo.

 

The main points of this theory center in the vagueness of historical proof and the lack of a fair trial.

There was a lot of people who had a lot to gain from her guilt

 

She was sentenced without a trial under the excuse of "not raising scandal" by judging a noble.

The testimonies were obtained under torture and the threat of torture. It was still the time when the church had the power to burn anyone they didn't like by charging him/her with heresy and witchcraft.

 

Torture was an accepted method of getting evidence in that time. Something no court would accept these days.

 

Again I speak against ignorance and stupidity of religious zealotry when noticing the fact that anything other than religious devotion was considered witchcraft. Science was outlawed and progress was unacceptable. Only a "pious" life was accepted, and everything else was devil worshiping.

 

So something like druid beliefs, nature communion and hippie life style was NECESSARILY associated with the devil no matter what you say. 

 

It is said the Bathory family was interested in medicine, but as i said, medicine was the stuff of the devil

It is true that medicine was archaic and might have seem brutal nowadays, but that only makes it primitive, not evil. Besides most of it was related to herbal medicine, and herbs by extension, guess what... herbs were the devil too

 

Don't even get me started on the fact that female role in that society was to be a furniture that provides children

 

Intelligence in women was also socially outlawed and intelligence in women could only be the result of a witch selling her soul and fornicating with the devil in an unholy pact.

 

Not only intelligence but sexual independence and other sexuality too. A woman could not have sexual desire for either men or woman, that aberration in a pure devoted woman was unthinkable.

 

So a woman who could not be "tamed", would have to be a witch. Ain't it easier to call them devil worshiping whores instead of accepting the fact they had a will of their own?

Beauty, power, intelligence and open minded women were entirely evil.

 

Again the church did its part and condemned yet another one to hell just because they said so.

Sure "God's will is the church's will"

Can you show me the phone calls God makes personally every day to the pope?

 

So by today's standards, Countess Bathory's guilt was never proven.

Accusations were taken as irrefutable proof

Apparently there is no record of true missing persons or families who really lost someone to the Blood Countess

Fear, ignorance and superstition were used to build a myth around a creature that bathed in blood.

Women discrimination had levels beyond imagination at that time

 

Sure nice story but if it happened this way there's a monument to injustice over here...

 

Of course

 

There's also the perspective she could have not been ENTIRELY innocent.

 

The Grey Area

 

The moral standards for the time were way darker than now

Especially for people with power who had the right to do anything with their servants as they were nothing more than things

Power creates a feeling of omnipotence and some serial killers might have been really happy at that time as their actions were not as damnable as they are now.

With this power came the idea of absolute freedom an impunity, as is in that freedom that cruelty can find no boundaries.

So psychologically speaking, the only way of stopping this cruelty at the time was education. either you raise your kids to be good persons or you raise them to be freaking psychopaths with no boundaries.

 

This is yet another curious thing that supports the theory of Erzebeth's innocence. No records of psychopathic behavior as a child. Any decent psychologist knows psychopathic behavior has to start somewhere, probably as animal cruelty.

 

So this possibility is maybe she murdered a person or two, but is not the evil vampire stories made us believe.

Still evil, but different story and no more evil than her fellow noblemen at the time.

 

Final Thoughts:

 

I personally think she was a woman born out of time, too free thinking and intelligent for her own sake, caught in the middle of ambition and politics led by merciless men. I'm not sure about this but I think the political conspiracy theory has quite good consistency and historical background, especially considering the amount of superstition back in the day...

A woman had already enough problems with having a thinking mind to even add power, ambition and the occult to the equation and you had the perfect motive for accusing her of evil.

 

Like I said, I'm not sure about her complete innocence, she could have been a serial killer, a poor innocent angel, or a "grey" character somewhere in between, but not even close to what stories say.

 

History is always written by the victors... back in the day, the church and the powerful, ALWAYS won.

 

However, as the evil vampire story sells more and is good publicity, its a nice story, but I think her being innocent is more sad but more romantic and I choose to keep this last version

 

Sorry I'd quote more sources and books but Im too lazy for that right now, so Im just putting ideas Ive gathered from a few things I've read...

[Emily]

She made a very nice villain. Salute!

[Myst42]

Yeah... I guess I like the romantic view too, not so much evil, a little blood and a cool vampire story...

But in reality I think she was set up

 

Too much blurriness and obscure things about the official version... something doesnt smell right...

 

Just an example... bathing in a tub of blood is almost impossible, you'd have to bleed out about 30 people at the same time to fill the tub, or the blood coagulates very quickly. The 30 people are because one person or even up to 5 just DO NOT HAVE enough blood to fill a tub... for example...

[Emily]

Took a bath on people blood is satanic 'reborn' reference.

 

Saw it once on youtube, it's completely creepy and chills.

 

Emily saw a lot of gore on horror movies but this one is worst than Smut.

 

If bathory did blood bath, surely she is into the devil since her victims are all specific.

 

But then it could be slanders..

[Kain82]

Back in my younger days, I used to be obsessed with everything occult and anyone or anything associated with it.  Like Countess Elizabeth and Vlad Dracula.  There stories fascinated me, especially the bathing in virgin blood.  Also it's well known Bram Stoker used them as the inspiration for his monster.  Especially Vlad of course.  

 

If the stories are true then I believe she was just a psychopath killer and mass murderer.  

 

[Myst42]

History tends to be very different from what really happened, the victors tell the story and they have free will to add whatever they want to spice it up.

 

From what I read, the official version says she killed over 600 persons in some of the most horrific ways...

But this other version states everything could have been an elaborate plan to disgrace her and steal all her property. Of course the story is gonna be an epic myth and an inspiration for horror characters.

 

Is this ambiguity what creates the difference.

 

In Dracula's story there is no ambiguity, he was a mass murderer, but the difference is his crimes were committed in the  name of war and national justice.

The fields of impaled people were enemies of the nation, its a cruel way to execute them, but the result is the same as any war. The argument is it served as a warning "YOU DO NOT FUCK WITH DRACULA"

The rest of the executed, the ones who weren't enemies of war it is said they were what the justice system considered criminals, so it was death penalty by a very cruel way.

 

The vampire story about Dracula states he terrorized innocent people and drank virgin's blood, while his people lived in fear.

But the historical sources match in the fact that if you were a good citizen living an honest life you had nothing to worry, except of course... the Turks... which Vlad was personally interested in getting rid of. He's a national hero in Romania

 

There is this movie that unravels in the whole plot theory and how was Elizabeth set up. Its quite convincing and if you check some sources very possible

Sadly I only found it in Spanish audio which in my opinion, sucks but what the hell...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duFCvQWNID8

 

Its easy to believe stories and hundreds of movies games and novels portraying evil unholy creatures from hell... Im sure she's been a boss enemy in many games. But Im not falling for a story just because games say so

[Angrybird]

I thought bathing in the blood of sacrificed virgins was common behaviours in these forums.

[OmgItsaGhost!]

I actually found that movie in MovieStop. It's marketed like a vampire movie on the cover of it but it really isn't. 

 

I recently heard a strange theory that linked vampirism, Vlad Dracula, Countess Bathory, and Christianity. Vlad and the Bathory family, among other nobles of the time were part of a group called the Order of the Dragon, which was tasked with defending Christianity and stopping the Ottoman Turks. I read into it a little and there's a belief that the Christian rituals of drinking the "blood" and Jesus rising from the grave were vampiric. Someone even theorized that Vlad himself was a descendant of Jesus and that vampires were persecuted (or created to be persecuted) to defend the idea that Jesus was pure. It sounds a little goofy I guess but when you're dealing with religion, who can really tell? I just find it funny that the two can be so closely linked. If there's any truth to it at all though, maybe that could be a reason she was set up? Who knows.

[Myst42]

Actually that might just not bee too far away from the truth...

Lets go a little off-topic...ish and find history...

 

The vampire myth is in present culture, the result of many things in the pass. Unlike what some people say, it didnt start in the middle ages and original vampires were most definitely not undead corpses

The thing has been twisted beyond recognition. At some point in the middle ages, the plague stroke and as the church commanded ignorance to be the path to salvation, nobody bothered to investigate why did the dead corpses really became inflated, moved, presented blood in their mouth and eyes, and made strange sounds, which are all signs of decomposition. 

And so what we now call a zombie, mixed with the vampire idea and created the undead corpse monster.

 

It was only until recently that the undead idea came to be different portraying vampires capable of thought and emotion. I believe Anne Rice started this new conception.

 

But thats only regarding myth and literature...

 

The origins go way back to ancient prehistorical cultures.

It is said in almost every single one of then, that the gods came from the stars and created mankind. Some of these gods were benevolent, some, were not... But many required blood sacrifices and thats yet another element that echoes in the past...

 

And so on Christ was sent by a higher power in an immaculate conception (artificial insemination everywhere...), again, from the stars, like many others to guide a philosophy of goodness and light, but still presented some references to blood drinking.

According to this, its not the blood drinking what makes something evil, is the evil itself...

You cant really say a lion is evil because he eats other animals.

So not all vampires were evil.

Many old gods required only animal sacrifices once in a while, some of them didnt even take lives but only small amounts of blood.

 

The Aztec god Quetzalcoatl was a good friend of man, and was the one who outlawed blood sacrifices that had been going on for centuries in Aztec culture, which by the way mentions thousands of gallons of blood spilled in the process of creating humanity

 

Scientifically speaking is very possible that the old gods were part of one or more alien races, and blood was probably part of their diet.

As for the descendant part, it is also possible that some cross-breeding happened making many humans present features of vampire lineage... probably so diluted by now its impossible to notice...

 

From this point of view, its not too crazy the Idea of Christ being a vampire and some descendants having a certain taste for blood

 

But...

 

Its most likely only stories...

[OmgItsaGhost!]

I just keep an open mind about these things. If I can believe Jesus rose from the dead then anything is really possible, yea?

[Emily]

No actually, Blood is entertainment.

whether we do it for real or fictions.

[Dragonovich]

 

History is always written by the victors... back in the day, the church and the powerful, ALWAYS won.

 

 

Tell that to the crusaders and vikings...