Nifscope, Blender: A N00bs quest for Glory

[BruceWayne]

I've been fiddling with Nifscope and Photoshop the last few days/week in order to make some nice new clothing/armors/general items. While that has been fun and I think I've managed to get a good grasp on the basics of texturing and mashing up armors in Nifscope, I want to try to move on to some more complex models. I've been trying to avoid having to use Blender, but as it seems that is unavoidable at this point. Difficult to use UVs, Meshes that are so high poly that my rig is about to explode, clipping and other fun things have me wanting to fix all (or some) of these problems. Maybe some of the more experienced Blender/Nifscope users here know some answers to my questions.

 

Are there Niftool utilities for Blender versions higher than 2.49? The official page doesn't have any and the "newest" version is for 3ds max 2010 (or was it 2009?) in some dev thread. 

Since I don't have high hopes for that, my second question would be, if it were possible to import the .nif files in 2.49, save the .blend workspace and do the rest in the current Blender version. Exporting would be the same route. Since I'm a (near) total beginner, I'd love to do it that way, since all tutorials  are (seemingly) written with the new versions in mind. It's not that I didn't try what I suggested yet, but somehow I failed. If that would be possible, are there any import/export settings that I have to keep in mind to make it work? I'm currently modding Fallout: New Vegas and I know that other people have managed to put out quite a few mods for that, so it doesn't seem to be impossible.

 

I do have a lot more questions probably. 

 

[gregathit]

As far as I know there aren't any reliable import\export scripts for blenders later versions. 

Yes, you can create blend files, save them and then rework them with the latest version of blender. 

Unfortunately you will have to then save your work and open it in 2.49 to export it.

 

Not guaranteeing that it will work but it should.

 

3dsmax tools all seem geared around skyrim so not sure you will find much help for FNV from it.  I am "told" animations are easier to create in 3dsmax but having never messed with it, I just don't know.  Blender is not all that difficult to use, it is just a matter of figuring out the proper commands and shortcuts to do whatever you are trying to do.  Gerra6 made some pretty useful Blender scripts that can aid doing lots of things.  Myself, I have figured out parts of how to animate and parts of how to create lattices but things like weight painting and constraints are still a mystery to me.  It is not that I "can't" learn to do them, I just haven't spent the time yet to read up on them and play with things to get it figured out.  Tutorials are great to get you started but you will still need to mess around to really "get it".

 

Moving thread to FNV area as the Modders Resource thread is really supposed to be a "resource" and not a help thread.  I am not all that sure I can help much but if you get stuck holler and I'll do what I can to help you.

 

Cheers,

Greg

 

If you have not already done so you might check out ThatOnes guide to Blender and Nifskope: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/10838-guide-blender-nifskope/

[BruceWayne]

Thanks man, I will try again then. There are quite a lot of "import" options and I was hoping to get some more info on them or what to watch out for.

 

I'd put answers in the OP so, I've been posting in the general section/modders resource section. This seems like universal info interesting for people of any kind of game, plus I was hoping to get help from other "experts" since we have not so many active in the Fallout section anymore. Nobody of the active Blender wizards is going to see it there...

 

Edit: This definitely doesn't belong into the Fallout general discussion area.

[gregathit]

Concerning beth games the import\export options are mostly best left alone and you only toggle the specifics based on what you are importing (animation - kf file, mesh - nif file).  The other option to toggle on\off is parenting a skelly to a mesh.  It is easier to give options based on a specific question of what you are trying to do, than in a general way.

 

 

I am willing to move this thread anywhere that makes sense.  Perhaps the tutorial section if you get some answers in the OP?  Just PM me once you find a good home for it.

 

I am trying to keep the modders resources thread clean of questions and such, so that it is easy for folks to find the downloads (it really is supposed to be a downloads only thread).  If I don't do this then the downloads that are there will get lost in the multitude of pages that will quickly turn up.

 

Cheers,

Greg

[BruceWayne]

Yeah, okay you are right, tutorials seems like a better place (once there are some answers). You can leave it here or tech support for now, I'm going to update the OP once I've made some progress and can "prove" that it works okay and know what I'm talking about.

 

I've already checked out ThatOne's guide, which is very helpful and did help me with some Nifscope stuff.

 

Concerning the skeleton, what is my best option for basically only editing clothing meshes? Earlier today I've imported an armor with default import options including the skeleton, edited the mesh, and exported it with default settings. It showed up okay in Nifscope, but the edited mesh was gone or invisible in GECK and the game. Which is a shame since it makes the particular pieces I wanted to use incompatible with each other. Or is there some way I can fix this with NifScope?

 

Another question I have is, would deleting parts of a mesh (for instance feet within a boot mesh) screw up something like the skeleton or the "composition" of the overall mesh?

[gregathit]

Regarding meshes and skeletons:

 

1. When you import a mesh into blender the first thing you should always do is delete the skeleton.  Most meshes only contain a partial skeleton at best. 

2. After deleting the skeleton then import Astymma's compatibility skeleton (make sure you click the import and parent option) and go from there on your editing. 

3. When you export make sure you are using the default settings for fallout 3 and that you have "Export Dismember Body Parts" checked.

 

I am not all that familiar with fallout stuff as I am with oblivion but if you are still stuck after doing the above just upload the file you are having problems with and I'll take a look at it.

[kingkong]

a long time i did not touch blender   and i downloaded the portable one i'm going to download the full one to see difference

 

especialy in treatement time like the copy bone weight or exporting to nif .

   while i thought it was like a bicycle ; to mess things aroung seems easy enough   but if you forget a step you blow out all the job you've done (it is just the seconde time that i try to convert a meshe) .    that is where i find my self almost in the same situation as you but in my conversion it crashes the game (the skeleton is not the good one i think)      but to answer your question.

 

from what i remember you can    not to use an imported skeleton   but you must link (parent) the unity of scene root  (probleme with bones that might show up ingame like a "picasso"  or not show up.

 

Compare in the nif files with another one to see if there is a probleme in the NiTextureShader in block details (you might need to look at all the NiTriStrip/Shape) if you do not see the solution you will need to reimport your armor and work it again.

 

if you just take some meshes (without cut) and porting it to another meshes  you can do it easily in nifskope with copy and past within the nif files and update the tangent and space.

 

 

[BruceWayne]

Thanks greg, I'll give it a try.

 

See, I remember reading something like that somewhere, but only in passing and couldn't for the life of me find where it was, now that I need it.

 

@kingkong:

 

Mashing up armors in Nifscope is quite easy and I have already done that with some mixed and some good results. The problem I have is that some of the armor pieces were designed for different variations of the same body and produced minor clipping when merged in Nifscope. Nifscope allows for basic editing itself, but going through 5000 vertices to find the one I'm looking for didn't do the trick for most of the stuff I needed to fix. Since I've been retexturing most of the pieces, I want to take a look at UV-Map generation and manipulation as well, as some of the templates are not easy to work with without some serious photoshop magic. I know that you can do this in Nifscope as well, but that's not really an option with the basic editing tools you have there.

 

I'm currently powering through the Blender tutorial, because unfortunately Blender is not a program that allows for much trial and error, if you don't know what you are looking for. I think my problem is that I want to start with something, that requires some advanced knowledge of the program, which I don't have... And I don't really like to fly blind and trust that stuff should work, without knowing what it is or does or where it is.

[kingkong]

than if i understand well you have already some latices for different body and you have some meshes that does not fit correctly with others      i can suggest you this tutorial http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/34355   it is for oblivion but it uses the same principe

there is a section that is about ajusting vertices

 

hope it helps   (if not sorry that i disturbe)

 

 

[BruceWayne]

Thanks, I take everything I can get. 

 

What I was trying to say is, that I need to "catch smaller fish", before I start trying something as complex as that. I can barely import a nif and drag some vertices, faces and edges around, at the moment. ;D

[gregathit]

Unfortunately learning blender will be just that, learning through making mistakes.  My first ventures were horrible and it took me about a month to do anything useful.  Much of what I did do I have since redone.  I have MUCH more to learn but it is a process to which there are few shortcuts.  Hang in there however and you will accomplish great things.

[BruceWayne]

Well, I tried some years ago to learn Blender, but lost interest at some point, because it became frustrating. My problem was, that I started with something that required a lot of base knowledge and when I resorted to manipulate single vertices by hand without end in sight and learning afterwards that it was all for nought, I quit. That was more a "out of boredom" approach though, I feel I'm much more focused now that I have something I specifically want to achieve. Plus, the current Blender version seems to be a lot more intuitive than previous installments. 

 

[gregathit]

Yea, what helped me most was Gerra6's via his scripts and then hints when I got stuck.  As you say, start small and build on that success.

 

Modding with Nifskope is entirely possible, it is also incredibly frustrating.  I did the two Oblivion BU armors packs entirely with Nifskope, some 140+ full body armors and each armor has 4-6 mesh files for the broken stages.  That translates into 560+ mesh files.  I swapped out parts and pieces like a crazy person, and combined all armor parts into a full body armor\clothing) so I only had to make around 140 entries into the CS for the armors.  Took F'ing forever let me tell you.  Blender could have simplified the living crap out of it had I known then what I know now.  Unfortunately I, like everyone else, only have so much free time.

[BruceWayne]

That's the plan. I'm going to take my time (what I have available) to learn the basics this time around. I've been over the navigation shortcuts and simple mesh editing now and it does make a world of difference, if you know what Blender is capable of doing and how it does it, instead of trial and error and pressing random buttons. And that's a method that usually served me well in my experience, I've never had much trouble with learning new programs, but Blender: not so much.

 

Nifscope is a very nice program, but it clearly has its limitations. I've had it installed forever for previewing purposes, but never actually used it for anything else until recently. I'm sure that there is a lot to learn in there as well.

[ETERNALDEMON]

use Zbrush and Photoshop(+dds plug)  thats all you need men

[BruceWayne]

I might just do that...

 

But I'm making a lot of progress on using Blender more efficiently, so I think I'm going to stick to that for now. I'm getting the hang of it and modelling starts being fun. I'm still painfully slow, but doing the Blender beginner's tutorial here was very helpful. Add to that, Blender is a lot friendlier to use nowadays, as back when I've tried the first time.

 

 

 

 

[BruceWayne]

Okay, I'm progressing nicely, but I ran into some questions lately. I haven't managed to convert my new clothes into a .nif file yet, I need to still optimize it further, so I'm not going to fiddle with that for the moment. 

 

My questions are:

 

Does the Fallout engine/nif format only like triangles? I think I know the answer to this one, but asking doesn't hurt...

Is there a texture slot for displacement maps?

What is a considerable good amount of polys for the complete clothing set? I'm currently around the 15k mark, but somehow I feel that's still to much, although I saw some modded armor with a similar count. From what I could gather, vanilla armor has around 2k-4k, but I guess we don't have the same limitations as Beth in regard to console compatibility. Still, I don't want to push it more than is necessary.