anim tech: does oblivion support anchoring joints?

[rynak777]

As we know, the current animation packs are quite unflexible. They're designed for one body-size, certain breast sizes (currently, actually just one: megaboobs), and certain dick sizes and angles.

 

When watching the poses, this made me wonder.... in any halfway modern game, it is possible to "attach" certain joints of a bone, to some other joint..... and then when making animations, instead of defining where exactly each bodypart has to be at a given step in the animation... one just defines into which direction certain joints move, as well as defining which joints are anchored to which other joins.

 

That sounded quite technical. Lets take boobs as an example. During a sex anim, we want the "dominant" actor, to grab the breasts of the "submissive" actor. Problem: different breast sizes, different body sizes. They could be anywhere. But what if instead, we simply specify, that the hands of actor1, should be "anchored" to the breasts of actor2... and the rest of his body then just adapts as neccessary. There is a technical term for this technique, but i forgot it currently. It in modern games basically is an integral part of animation via skelettons. Even a lot of flash games use this technique.

 

Another example would be anchoring a dick to a vagina.

 

My question: Does oblivion not support this? I mean, probably not, else animators wouldn't make their life artificially hard?

[canderes]

You can collapse the animations you make with ik solvers under the motion panel if your using 3ds max. As for blender I haven't used that for animation, but I'm sure it has an equivalent. Yeah you can use the position and rotation constraints to keep two bones in close proximity. The distance between the bones can be changed with a slider and it keeps you from having to translate bones back and fourth. I would say that 90% or more of the good animations are made this way because the solvers do all the work. Once you have the animation finished you just choose the root bone and all of its children and collapse position and rotation under trajectory.

 

To anchor the legs to the floor:

 

ik solver from foot to calf

then ik solver from foot to thigh.

 

it lets the actor kneel but it keeps the feet planted at the correct orientation (heel flat to the ground). You can do the same thing with the hands except the wrists will stay in place if you do.

 

If oblivion supports retargeting then you can just export the kf. If it doesn't you should be able to export the animation using the animation menu then reimport to the correct skeleton if you are using a skeleton of a different size. The problem though like you said is that the character bodies aren't always aligned the same way, so you'll have to refine the animation a bit if there are polygons intersecting or the actors don't line up. Hopefully newer games will handle this someday. Skyrim claims to do it, but only if you are bethesda and you have access to the havok stuff they used to make it in the first place.

 

So as far as I'm aware all the bones do for this game is move and rotate.

[WappyOne]

Oblivion uses this for all animations, but it does not support doing it across models, i.e. hooking a piece from actor1 to actor2.

[canderes]

If you keep the roots in the same position you can synchronize an animation, but lets say that there is skinning involved for a collar or leash to be hook from one actor to the other with a chain model then things get really messy. It is possible to do, but its likely that you will have to add extra bones to do it. It will look like the animations are hooked together but that's only because the actors have a similar bone overlapping somewhere and you have to find a way to keep the animations facing the same direction or those bones won't overlap.

 

There are directional functions in the script extender and the game that you can use to find the distance between the actors, orient them in the same direction, and if you overlapped your roots in your animation you should be able to place them in the right spot without having any collision or position issues unless theres a bumper involved or something.

[rynak777]

Oblivion uses this for all animations, but it does not support doing it across models, i.e. hooking a piece from actor1 to actor2.

Bummer - and since only one skelleton is supported, one couldn't cheat, by at runtime converting both actors to a single actor.

 

 

If you keep the roots in the same position you can synchronize an animation, but lets say that there is skinning involved for a collar or leash to be hook from one actor to the other with a chain model then things get really messy. It is possible to do, but its likely that you will have to add extra bones to do it. It will look like the animations are hooked together but that's only because the actors have a similar bone overlapping somewhere and you have to find a way to keep the animations facing the same direction or those bones won't overlap.

 

There are directional functions in the script extender and the game that you can use to find the distance between the actors, orient them in the same direction, and if you overlapped your roots in your animation you should be able to place them in the right spot without having any collision or position issues unless theres a bumper involved or something.

I'm not so much concerned about spectial cases like skinned collars and the like. It would be asking a bit much to support anything that cannot be derived from the skelleton. But as it is now, even just naked actors with no extra gadgets, fail to connect (and often cannot be made to connect properly with position adjustments), if it the actors aren't of exactly the same size, use a standardized dick (which i apparently still haven't found .... or maybe my "partner" i tested with, is too short), don't have megaboobs (h-cup) etc... they can't connect.

 

As for the directional and distance funcs of the script extender - as i understand it, this would only help autoaligning characters which can already ideally connect, with no changes to the animation.... just repositioning entire actors. Or did i understand you wrong? I mean, knowing where some actor is, and its orientation, lets you properly auto position and orient two actors which do perfectly fit. But it i.e. doesn't let you at runtime reposition and orient i.e. a dick - and make all relevant joints follow - to connect to a vagina of a shorter than standard actor?

 

EDIT: Rethought this. This may be possible to do, even though oblivion does not directly support it - IF it is possible to via standard oblivion, or OBSE, to get the position of joints of some other actor. That one can at runtime change animation, i know already because there is some mod, which at runtime dynamically adjusts feet, to properly connect to the ground on slopes.

[gregathit]

I am not aware of ANY obse function that allow "in game" alterations of animations.  To change an animation you have to fire up blender or 3dsmax and make the changes and then export it. 

 

You CAN align the animations (for lovers with PK) via the 0-9 keys, but not alter them.

 

Don't know what you mean by the whole can't find a standardized dick deal.  The resources file for lovers comes with an erect lower body mesh.

[rynak777]

I am not aware of ANY obse function that allow "in game" alterations of animations.  To change an animation you have to fire up blender or 3dsmax and make the changes and then export it.

 

http://oblivion.nexusmods.com/mods/42222

 

This guy/girl apparently "someway" managed to do so. The means he used may or may not be enought to make happen the idea of this topic. But he did manage to change animations at runtime someway. Given that his mod needs a skeletton with scale bones, i suspect he is scaling the legs, to fit the repositioned and reangled feet. Note that he requires OBSE 2.0.

[gregathit]

Guys that is not changing an animation in the form you are talking about.  Go and look at the actual file contents and you will see he has a TON of animation files inside.  He is just switching between them and not altering anything.  That is why his mod is "compatible" with all the idle animations.

 

Oh and the mod is really not as compatible as he claims.  It doesn't work very well with Lovers. 

 

It is a lovely idea and I do wish it was true but blender and elbow grease is the only way to actually change an animation.

 

 

[rynak777]

Meh, at this point, i'm willing to admit defeat. So basically, any possible full-actor animation has to be loaded at runtime. No way to dynamically adjust partial aspects of a char animation, at runtime (unless you pregenerate all possibility AOT)?

 

EDIT: If this is the situation, then "set scale on steroids" may indeed be the only theoretically working hackfix. But again, when it comes to breast sizes, it would feel "a little bit biased", to scale everything to "megaboobs". I mean, why even in mods like bodyset support anything else than that? After all, anything else wont happen/work anyways?

[gregathit]

The only thing you can do is "align" an animation "in game".  That is what the real high heals and other similar plugins are doing.  You can't alter the actual animation itself.  It is a locked thing that you can only alter with blender (or 3dsmax).  That is just the way it is.

 

The "bias" as you refer to it on boob sizing is merely the personal choice of the animator.  They animate per the body type that "they" like.  Very few animations have tit grabbing so you are free to use all except those few with pretty much any body that floats your particular boat. 

 

If missing out on those handful of animations that do have tit grabbing, that don't work with your chosen body bother you, then you are always free to fire up blender and either move the hand to fit the body type you like or move it to a non boob location so it is generic. 

 

You can rescale stuff "in game" as there is a plugin that allows you to grow or shrink your PC's boobs but that doesn't alter the animations themselves just the body mesh.

[rynak777]

Uh huh,,,, from: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/11501-lovers-animations-workshop/

 

4. Female body based on HGEC H cup or DMRA:

 

There you have it, the current (and actually also past) STANDARD on creating animations in a collaborative effort... the standard for this is H-cup. It's right there an black-and-white. And for past animation efforts aka the "lovers ressource pack", you can check it yourself ingame.

 

Don't cop out with calling this a matter of preference, of individual animators. This is bullshit. THIS IS A STANDARD. It's a standard, probably because of:

 

- biases in available meshes from the jap-side of the comm (notice: everything but plain old HGEC standard, is biased towards megaboobs).

 

- perhaps community biases towards giant breats (notice: BBB doesn't really do much in sex-scenes unless the breats are oversize. This has little to do with... ugh.... realism. It's just that you currently for technical reasons only mainly notice BBB, with oversized breasts. Plus, the "creating" part of the comm apparently being fond of this. All of this is find. I'm not argueing against people who do "create" stuff, getting preference. I'm just saying: Even if their "influence" may be justified, it still is a bias. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Why does this stuff matter anyways? Well, from what i've seen, animations seem to be (by the animator) anchored to:

 

1. Genital contact or oral contact (obviously)

 

2. Breast sizes.

 

3. Actor body dimensions.

 

I think if anything were able to  make animations "approximate" all those three things, indeed plain "position adjustments" could do the finetuning.

[gregathit]

Ok, you need to settle down spanky.  Animators do what they do, when they want, how they want and you getting upset about it isn't going to do jack shit.

 

The "so called standard" was recently created by ME with the agreement of several other animators that are currently active.  It doesn't effect anyone UNLESS they want it to.  That "standard" was a loose agreement among us for new animations and for overhauling the existing ones.  No one is bound by it.  And I damn well know what is in the resource pack as I freaking assembled it.  As to a "past" standard - that is what is Bullshit.  There was NO standard for past animations and that is why I have spent nearly 4 months working on the overhaul.  You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about so why don't you can it.

 

It DOES boil down to preference, as the active animators decided that these were two bodies we PREFERRED. 

 

Bias and preference are basically the same thing, so us liking those bodies\cup sizes is no different than you liking whatever the heck you like.  Since we are the ones doing the work then we are the ones who get to decide.  You want something different, fine!  Jump in and do whatever you want, however you want.  We don't turn anyone away who wants to create new stuff or revise overhaul existing. 

 

One and three are a given.  Oblivion\Lovers is only set up to handle one body size and alignment.  Unless you can come up with a way to rewrite the coding then this is just something you have to learn to live with.

 

Two is decided by the animator since he\she is doing the work.  Nothing unreasonable about that.

 

I am done talking with you with your current attitude.  You have 7 posts here and ZERO contributions to the community and you are acting as if we owe you something.  My advice to you is to start DOING something to contribute and THEN folks might be more inclined to aid you.

 

Have a good one.

 

[rynak777]

The "so called standard" was recently created by ME with the agreement of several other animators that are currently active.  It doesn't effect anyone UNLESS they want it to.  That "standard" was a loose agreement among us for new animations and for overhauling the existing ones.  No one is bound by it.

So don't start calling anything as BS when you have not been around long enough to know jack from shit.

Uh, huh, batman damn SURE it DOES affect, people, because it is the ONLY THING linked and directly visible, for players, RIGHT NOW.

 

Anyone not doing deepsearching the forums, will ONLY FIND THIS. And you know, these forums, host the quasi-official (or official) lovers PK downloads. There is nothing else like this site, doing this. What you are doing, is practically *official*, because there is no alternative, that can with even heavy effort be "deployed" (even the current downloads, aren't exactly easy to deploy, given that you have to go through FOUR topics, to get all the DLs one needs, just to get Lovers PK to work).

 

People practically officially are right now told: either get past V2 and V3, or get V3 and your pack. And both V2, and the stuff your people are currently working on, are for giant boobs. Point.

 

Again, i have no problem with folks working on animations for that taste. Thats great. I just notice: There is no visible alternative, unless one goes deepsearching the forums, and hand-assembles individidual bits, learns paths, learns some more about where stuff is to go (because here, if one is lucky, one gets a machine translated readme from jap, without any info about directory structure). My point: Only your current project, is halfway reasonably deployable in a user-friendly way. Everything else, is users becoming moders, and hackfixing their oblivion install manually.

 

 

It DOES boil down to preference, as the active animators decided that these were two bodies we PREFERRED. 

Where is two? Asking because i too think that two variants may approximatelly fit everyone's bill (well, except of A-cup people... but i'd argue those indeed are a potential minority.

 

 

 

 

 

I am done talking with you with your current attitude.  You have 7 posts here and ZERO contributions to the community and you are acting as if we owe you something.  My advice to you is to start DOING something to contribute and THEN folks might be more inclined to aid you.

What i contributed so far, was "good questions". My main skill is in understanding, and my secondary skill is in programming and bugtesting (anyone noticed so far, that the posted "horse dick fix", has multiple KILOMETRES wide mesh bugs? You know, fancy spikes going across the horizon? Nope? Oh, nevermind.

 

My point is... i know a bit about all kinds of tools, and all kinds of programming languages. But, i'm not an expert in any of those. My skill is in connecting domains. Heck, even adapted a bunch of plugins, and fixed bugs.... but the feedback i got so far from people like you, didn't actually encourage me to GIVE BACK anything to the community. You see, by now i spent about 300 hours setting up, and bugfixing oblivion mods... this is fucking nuts...... what did *I* get in return? Insults for me pointing out issues? Not exactly motivating me, to upload my fixes.

 

And, its not as if this "user-hostile deployment" had anything to do with skill. I stopped counting amounts of me just creating readme's in archives, just from the author's forum postings, because he would deploy a mod without docs, yet post all kinds of important docs, on the forums. It's just a copypaste job - no skill involved. I right now have about 20 mod archive with docs, created just this copypaste way. Same for optional features, which the author doesn't offer, yet it just takes 5mins in CS, to create an alternative eps. Why does it take someone like me, to do this? And why do people like me, get attacked for considering this bad user-service? So that "we" won't contribute?

[gregathit]

Uh, huh, batman damn SURE it DOES affect, people, because it is the ONLY THING linked and directly visible, for players, RIGHT NOW.

 

Anyone not doing deepsearching the forums, will ONLY FIND THIS. And you know, these forums, host the quasi-official (or official) lovers PK downloads. There is nothing else like this site, doing this. What you are doing, is practically *official*, because there is no alternative, that can with even heavy effort be "deployed" (even the current downloads, aren't exactly easy to deploy, given that you have to go through FOUR topics, to get all the DLs one needs, just to get Lovers PK to work).

 

Gee, let's see, me and a BUNCH of other folks spent countless hours of OUR free time to translate, create and modify plugins as well as create and modify animations and you think we should just STOP and redo all of that to suit your wishes?

ROFL!!!!!  Yea, I have some ocean front property in the middle of the desert I'll sell you. 

 

Tell you what, you go through all the work that folks on this site have and then you can have it your way.  Sound fair? 

 

Oh, and whining about having to make a few mouse clicks to install something isn't working in your favor for thanking the contributors for taking the time and effort to make these plugins available.  It just is making you sound like an entitled whiner.

 

 

People practically officially are right now told: either get past V2 and V3, or get V3 and your pack. And both V2, and the stuff your people are currently working on, are for giant boobs. Point.

 

Download version 2 and you have the old animations, many of which date back to friends and lovers if not before.  There was NO standard way back then so knock yourself out.

 

 

 

Again, i have no problem with folks working on animations for that taste. Thats great. I just notice: There is no visible alternative, unless one goes deepsearching the forums, and hand-assembles individidual bits, learns paths, learns some more about where stuff is to go (because here, if one is lucky, one gets a machine translated readme from jap, without any info about directory structure). My point: Only your current project, is halfway reasonably deployable in a user-friendly way. Everything else, is users becoming moders, and hackfixing their oblivion install manually.

 

 

My dear Watson, you are 'starting' to get it.  That is the tip of the iceburg on the time and effort that went into creating a mod.  If you don't like the current versions and think you can do better then by all means, step up and get to work.

 

The readme's are the OP.  Most of the Japanese readme's don't translate worth a damn so what is the point of posting gibberish?

 

As to the whole users becoming modders......well sparky that is how you start.  Everyone starts somewhere, as no one is "born" a modder.  I am baffled why that is a mystery to you.

 

Hackfixing.....gee another new word.  Webster is going to wonder about this one.  Clearly modding is beyond what your understanding at this point, as modding for the most part IS done manually.  Sure you can make an OMOD or even a BAIN but honestly us older modders actually prefer to extract something to a temp location and look through what is inside it.  Sure I have and maintain backups of my game but I don't enjoy restoring from backups....do you?

 

 

Where is two? Asking because i too think that two variants may approximatelly fit everyone's bill (well, except of A-cup people... but i'd argue those indeed are a potential minority.

 

Well, you quoted me and there are two body types in that quote so I am baffled once again why you are asking the question.

 

 

What i contributed so far, was "good questions". My main skill is in understanding, and my secondary skill is in programming and bugtesting (anyone noticed so far, that the posted "horse dick fix", has multiple KILOMETRES wide mesh bugs? You know, fancy spikes going across the horizon? Nope? Oh, nevermind.

 

ROFL!!!!  Good questions!!!!!  Please, you are killing me!!!!!!  You haven't asked a single question that made any sense yet.  You don't understand the game, its mechanics nor do you understand how Lovers works.  Even if you "DID" come up with a decent question that isn't a contribution.  The community has TONS of needs and they lie in modding NOT QUESTIONS. 

 

Roll up your sleeves and feel free to jump in.  I can point you in the direction of hundreds of tasks if you can't figure out what to do.

 

 

 

My point is... i know a bit about all kinds of tools, and all kinds of programming languages. But, i'm not an expert in any of those. My skill is in connecting domains. Heck, even adapted a bunch of plugins, and fixed bugs.... but the feedback i got so far from people like you, didn't actually encourage me to GIVE BACK anything to the community. You see, by now i spent about 300 hours setting up, and bugfixing oblivion mods... this is fucking nuts...... what did *I* get in return? Insults for me pointing out issues? Not exactly motivating me, to upload my fixes.

 

Blah, Blah, Blah......proof is in the pudding kiddo.  You joined this site on the 10th of this month so please stop acting like you have done jack shit. 

 

As to negative feeback....WTF did you expect to get when you come in barely 3 days and 8 posts into this site and start shitting on everything that has been done?  Great people skills you have there.  I HIGHLY recommend you don't do something similar at a workplace or you will be out the door faster than your head can spin.

 

As to your skills, I am inclined to believe ZERO of your claims due to the complete lack of understanding you have of the game.

 

If you DID actually get any plugins off of this site, then you ALREADY owe the community, so quit acting like we should be graced by your mere presence.  

 

 

And, its not as if this "user-hostile deployment" had anything to do with skill. I stopped counting amounts of me just creating readme's in archives, just from the author's forum postings, because he would deploy a mod without docs, yet post all kinds of important docs, on the forums. It's just a copypaste job - no skill involved. I right now have about 20 mod archive with docs, created just this copypaste way. Same for optional features, which the author doesn't offer, yet it just takes 5mins in CS, to create an alternative eps. Why does it take someone like me, to do this? And why do people like me, get attacked for considering this bad user-service? So that "we" won't contribute?

 

ROFL!!!!  User-hostile....what.....deployment?????  Where do you get this stuff!!!!  Seriously, I can't stop laughing. 

 

And as to your rant about documentation.....well there is a need and you found it.  Now take your internet cookie and do something about it.  That would be an excellent way for you to get off on the right foot by stopping the whining and starting to contribute.

 

I have had more than enough entertainment from this thread and it is clear that the Opening Post question has been resolved.

 

Say good night Gracie.....

 

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