3dsMax - weighting/skinning new body mesh from scratch?

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

For the neck its a little more annoying you can drag in the head for the _1 but the _0 is in the .tri.

 

*Boneheaded question, but WHICH .tri is it in exactly? The male head in my malehead, maleheadcustomizations, and maleheadraces .tri's are all identical to the standard malehead.nif, which is a _1. I do not appear to have a _0 anywhere obvious, I'm not sure where it would reside.

 

Example:   VANILLA HEAD tri extraction.rar

 

*Includes the tutorial I wrote & posted for 3dsMax & Anton's tool, which shows the method I use for .tri's.

 

 

EDIT: *POSSIBLE* solution found? Maybe? I can do this, & now have a ...bootleg... _0 malehead.nif - but will this work as a correctly-aligned original, or will it be subject to the same problem of mis-alignment as my body meshes?

 

BootlegMalehead_0:   BootlegMalehead_0.rar

[Vioxsis]

The bootleg looked okay in max, did it not line up for you?

In any case just using the vanilla _0 body is enough, it just feels off, like your doing it blind.

Its always better to not have the 'will it work properly' moment in game.

 

And it will be subject to the same misalignment problem as the body, but as long as it is the same then its aright.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

The bootleg looked okay in max, did it not line up for you?

In any case just using the vanilla _0 body is enough, it just feels off, like your doing it blind.

Its always better to not have the 'will it work properly' moment in game.

 

And it will be subject to the same misalignment problem as the body, but as long as it is the same then its aright.

 

Hmm... well, I truly wasn't sure. What I always tend to see in *MAX* is that everything looks okay, & thus the "wait... what the...?" moments almost ALWAYS come during in-game testing. IE: once I've already done a lot of work, and in this particular case it's in an area of mod-making I haven't really had any heavy-duty experience in until I began this project, hence why I tend to be having so many of these "head-scratcher" moments.

 

An example of two items where I have immediately spotted something as *WAAAAY* off in 3dsMax would be Saviour's Hide and Miner's Clothing. The Bethesda skins for those two are BONKERS - for no apparent reason there's a weird offset to the left for both of them, and the Miner's torso weighting in particular is bizarre. I am slooooooowly re-skinning Saviour's to 7B BBP with XPMSE, but I gave up on Miner's after the chest area simply would not behave properly even with the Vanilla skeleton.

 

 

*Also - to clarify, as far as I can work out, I need to join the incorrectly-aligned mesh to the Vanilla mesh in order to be able to snap the verts, yes? I have tried to do it without "Attach"-ing my mesh to the Vanilla, but it doesn't seem to work. From what I can tell going by tutorials, I need to join the two meshes - is that right?

 

(EDIT: Actually it still won't work even when I attach them - it's like the Snap Toggle is being completely ignored by Max & has no effect)

 

*I'm having trouble getting the zoom to push all the way in to see the verts ultra-close - it gets to a certain distance out then won't go further. The verts on the two meshes are so close together all I see is one vert. I Googled for a while, then dialled-down the zoom sensitivity, switched to "Orthographic" window (the one with the wireframes only), & I tried dropping the Views > ViewCube > Viewport Configuration > Visual Style Appearance > Perspective User View FOV down from 45 to 10, but the zoom just won't go all the way in. It goes close, but nowhere near close enough to see properly.

 

 

[Vioxsis]

No you don't need to attach the meshes, its much more preferable if you don't for a few reasons one of which you pointed out (selecting the right vert).

 

 

 

 

 

 

1, make sure the snap tool is enabled.

2, make sure its configured properly (right click the button to get to the settings)

3, the move tool must be selected to move the vert (rotate, scale and select will do nothing)

 

^ if you have met all the above and its still doing nothing.. have you locked the selection?

Its the little padlock at the bottom centre of max (default hot key is space bar)

 

Also orthographic is not wire frame only you can set it to anything like in perspective F3 will toggle to the last shader type you used and wire frame F4 for edged faces.

And U is the hot key for orthographic and P for perspective.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

No you don't need to attach the meshes, its much more preferable if you don't for a few reasons one of which you pointed out (selecting the right vert).

 

 

 

 

 

 

1, make sure the snap tool is enabled.

2, make sure its configured properly (right click the button to get to the settings)

3, the move tool must be selected to move the vert (rotate, scale and select will do nothing)

 

^ if you have met all the above and its still doing nothing.. have you locked the selection?

Its the little padlock at the bottom centre of max (default hot key is space bar)

 

Also orthographic is not wire frame only you can set it to anything like in perspective F3 will toggle to the last shader type you used and wire frame F4 for edged faces.

And U is the hot key for orthographic and P for perspective.

 

*KLUNK!*

 

Oh my GOD I am such an idiot! I had accidentally locked the selection & had the Move toggle switched off!!!!!!!!!! GAH! Oh man - Vioxsis, I am *SO* sorry!! 

 

Okay - I *THINK* I have the process running along smoothly. I did a quick dry-run just now: the wrists & ankles are easy, as the alignment between my 2-part mesh & Vanilla is WAY off there & easy to spot. Around the neck seam is a lot tougher, as the verts from the two meshes are virtually on top of each other - I am trying to work around this by first pulling the vert *AWAY* from the target, then pushing it back so that the tiny crosshairs go green, then releasing the mouse button (ALSO - thanks for the clarification here & tips re: Perspective/Orthographic!! I think I had both of those confused between all the things I read yesterday).

 

*Interestingly, when I was doing a test for that little piece of the process, I tried a quick "undo/redo/undo/redo" ("Before/After/Before/After") to see what Max was actually doing. The X Y Z co-ords are actually IDENTICAL in both positions, but the vert DOES move slightly when snapped.

 

*I also found out a little more about the weird zoom problem I was getting. Apparently it's just a native "bug" & can sometimes happen if Max has been open a very long time (which it had been when I was seeing the problem). When I opened it up today to begin again, I did all the importing/smoothing/hiding/collapsing steps & then saved the scene - hopefully all will be well!

 

 

EDIT:

 

 

 

Once the base mesh is aligned you need to add fresh skin data to the mesh (with skin wrap don't copy and paste)

 

Okay - I have done my first vert-snapping mesh. I have snapped all the wrist, ankle, and neck seams on my 2-part mesh to the corresponding Vanilla male body seams, as per the suggested route for the head. I am assuming my skin wrap here is using the Bethesda Vanilla mesh. Skinning now...

 

 

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

Okay - here are the in-game results:

 

         

 

 

I'm not quite sure *HOW*, or when, but I succeeded in making the problem worse? Maybe the skinning did it?

 

Male 2-part test1 MALEBODY_0 mesh only.rar

 

 

 

EDIT: Something just occurred to me - could these results be due to the fact that the parts of this mesh come from two different Vanilla files (Upper Body: Vanilla RAGGED TROUSERS body mesh, Lower Body: Vanilla UNDERWEAR body mesh)? Reason: Bethesda cut too many polys out of the underwear body, thus leaving a gaping hole in the lower back if this mesh is used with trousers or shorts from my other meshes.

 

*If I have sourced the 2 parts from 2 different meshes, should I skin each part back to its actual Vanilla mesh of origin, rather than skinning both to the Vanilla naked mesh?

 

 

EDIT: Setting up 2nd attempt - this time, snapping my 2-part mesh seams to hands (the Vanilla 1st-person meshes, which I am including in my mod re-named to overwrite the lower-quality stock vanilla 3rd-person hands), the feet from Better Males (not going to be included, as they're not mine, but expressly recommended for the mod as a foot mesh & texture replacer), and the bootleg _0 head I made through the CK. Results to follow...

 

 

RESULTS: Bleh! Nope - exactly the same outcome -

 

         

 

Male 2-part test2 MALEBODY_0 mesh only.rar

[Vioxsis]

A look at the nif shows incorrect weights at the seams, did you remember to correct them after the skin wrap?

The ones at the neck for instance, are only  meant to have spine2 affect them.

 

You just have to check the hand and feet meshes for the right numbers, if its like the female ones they should be uniform in distribution.

 

 

*If I have sourced the 2 parts from 2 different meshes, should I skin each part back to its actual Vanilla mesh of origin, rather than skinning both to the Vanilla naked mesh?

 

Makes no difference, at all. mesh is mesh.

"Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?"

Been playing some CiV 5 the last few days and that ^ just popped in to my head.

Remember you are the one making this do not let the mesh dictate what you should do.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

A look at the nif shows incorrect weights at the seams, did you remember to correct them after the skin wrap?

The ones at the neck for instance, are only  meant to have spine2 affect them.

 

You just have to check the hand and feet meshes for the right numbers, if its like the female ones they should be uniform in distribution.

 

 

*If I have sourced the 2 parts from 2 different meshes, should I skin each part back to its actual Vanilla mesh of origin, rather than skinning both to the Vanilla naked mesh?

 

Makes no difference, at all. mesh is mesh.

"Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou?"

Been playing some CiV 5 the last few days and that ^ just popped in to my head.

Remember you are the one making this do not let the mesh dictate what you should do.

 

 

Ahhhh - yes, I misunderstood. I did a visual "does that seems right to you?" check & thought that was it.

 

I am thinking that the easiest way is for me to check & correct at the same time. If I load up the Vanilla body, & go to Skin > Edit Envelopes > Vertices and select the ring of verts around the neck seam, & click on NPC Spine2 in the Bones list I see exactly what you mean:

 

 

Under Weight Properties, the Abs. Effect for ALL those is 1.0 when the NPC Spine2 bone is selected.

 

If I go to the right wrist & do the same, I can see that when the verts at the wrist seam are selected, the Abs. Effect is a split between 0.3 on the NPC R ForearmTwist1, and 0.7 on the NPC R ForearmTwist2:

 

    

 

 

"Be the dog - not the fire hydrant!" - Gottit!

 

I'll re-do my meshes today hopefully, & post the results!

 

 

(*Civ.5 looks really cool actually - I should revisit the Civ. series)

[Vioxsis]

Ahhhh - yes, I misunderstood. I did a visual "does that seems right to you?" check & thought that was it.

 

I am thinking that the easiest way is for me to check & correct at the same time. If I load up the Vanilla body, & go to Skin > Edit Envelopes > Vertices and select the ring of verts around the neck seam, & click on NPC Spine2 in the Bones list I see exactly what you mean:

 

Under Weight Properties, the Abs. Effect for ALL those is 1.0 when the NPC Spine2 bone is selected.

 

If I go to the right wrist & do the same, I can see that when the verts at the wrist seam are selected, the Abs. Effect is a split between 0.3 on the NPC R ForearmTwist1, and 0.7 on the NPC R ForearmTwist2:

Yep that sounds about right, .3/.7 split on the wrist is the same for the female body.

The ankle might be different though, it should be 1.0 to the respective calf but the mesh you sent had feet weights so may have a split between the two.

 

"Be the dog - not the fire hydrant!" - Gottit!

ow I like that one, though, if i ever found myself to be a hydrant i would rather become animal control then another dog.

...probably thinking to much in to it.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

 

Ahhhh - yes, I misunderstood. I did a visual "does that seems right to you?" check & thought that was it.

 

I am thinking that the easiest way is for me to check & correct at the same time. If I load up the Vanilla body, & go to Skin > Edit Envelopes > Vertices and select the ring of verts around the neck seam, & click on NPC Spine2 in the Bones list I see exactly what you mean:

 

Under Weight Properties, the Abs. Effect for ALL those is 1.0 when the NPC Spine2 bone is selected.

 

If I go to the right wrist & do the same, I can see that when the verts at the wrist seam are selected, the Abs. Effect is a split between 0.3 on the NPC R ForearmTwist1, and 0.7 on the NPC R ForearmTwist2:

Yep that sounds about right, .3/.7 split on the wrist is the same for the female body.

The ankle might be different though, it should be 1.0 to the respective calf but the mesh you sent had feet weights so may have a split between the two.

 

"Be the dog - not the fire hydrant!" - Gottit!

ow I like that one, though, if i ever found myself to be a hydrant i would rather become animal control then another dog.

...probably thinking to much in to it.

 

 

 

Heh heh! Yeh, sorry 'bout that!

 

 

Okay - the results were... right back where I started:

 

    

 

There is still a flickering seam everywhere there should not be, plus I got a really weird texturing & shadowing effect in-game - I think the UVs broke when I did the skinning (falloff 0.01, Vertex Deformation, Weight All points, Convert to skin). Straightaway everything went screwy - black like a mesh sometimes does, but in a weird, patchy, "you know you just broke this, amigo" kinda way). When I checked in a fresh Max scene after looking in-game, my nicely-snapped verts had gone WAY outta line:

 

 

If the verts are out of alignment again after skinning, do I just snap them back again?

 

*The ankle weighting in the Vanilla body is WEIRD. Unlike the other seams, which are a uniform "1.0" all around, the ankles are a different value for the calf bone at each vert. I checked the feet mesh & they're the same. I saw this when I went to adjust the anke seam on the mesh, but I just did a flat "1.0" to see what the effect would be. A flickering seam the same as the others. I haven't looked at the verts there yet.

 

MaleUWearNEWFIX2PART - 0 mesh 1st exp TEST SPELLS DONE MALEBODY_0.rar

 

[Vioxsis]

I have no idea why what happened, happened.. you should not need to re-snap the verts after skinning they should never have moved.

Plus snapping with a skinned mesh will give at best mixed results and most likely not what you want.

 

I tried going through the steps myself and well it all looks to have worked okay.. i used the body mesh you last linked too, i'll attach it to this post.

Speaking of attached i linked the 2 meshes together so its one mesh.

 

The ankle weights are a bit all over the place so i let max do what it wanted there, looks to be ok.

 

 

Maybe you could send me your max file of the last attempt? the one just after doing everything and its about to be exported.

though i might just be grasping at straws... but you never know.

 

 

V-Test_FitMaleBody_0.7z

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

(***Sorry for the long "pause" with my last few replies - it's been full-on here!)

 

 

You fixed my "it thought it was fine until I got it into the game - then it wasn't" broken mesh? I... how? HOW?? ("HOOOOOOOOWWWW-OWWW-LLLLL!!!"... well, it is Halloween)

 

Vioxsis, thank-you!!!!!!!!!

 

Annoyingly, no I cannot provide a .max scene of what I broke. I almost never actually save scenes, as I almost always end up having to do the same job repeatedly until it works (or until it doesn't & I trash it & move to another job). I do however save a breadcrumb-trail of .nifs which represent each key stage in my process, hence the weird naming you tend to see on a lot of the .nifs I have uploaded in my threads here. Maybe I should save scenes as well from now on?  

 

I *CAN* though recreate a scene with the whole process I followed to get that last mesh pretty much exactly from scratch, as i know what I did (just not what I did wrong). I can also provide a scene of the next step I will need to do in the process - making the _1 version, and also a scene for the step after that: taking the body/bodies, importing the shorts, and exporting again. I (finally) have another day free tomorrow, so I should be able to do it all - would that be okay?

[Vioxsis]

You fixed my "it thought it was fine until I got it into the game - then it wasn't" broken mesh? I... how? HOW?? ("HOOOOOOOOWWWW-OWWW-LLLLL!!!"... well, it is Halloween)

 

Vioxsis, thank-you!!!!!!!!!

I have rarely seen a broken mesh that can't be fixed, though i have seen one or two where fixing them would be more more effort then redoing them.

 

The mesh turning black when using skin wrap i have seen a few times, it never adversely affected anything.

I noticed it tends to happen when memory is low, which is why i see it happen mostly on high poly meshes or when the weighting is complicated, with many bones.

 

When i imported your last test nif into max i gave it the once over and nothing struck me as broken so i carried on with what i wrote in the step by step.

Snapping verts, skin wrap all that stuff and exported. After all nifskope bit i replaced the male _0 body and tested in game.

And, well it all worked as in should.

 

Annoyingly, no I cannot provide a .max scene of what I broke. I almost never actually save scenes, as I almost always end up having to do the same job repeatedly until it works (or until it doesn't & I trash it & move to another job). I do however save a breadcrumb-trail of .nifs which represent each key stage in my process, hence the weird naming you tend to see on a lot of the .nifs I have uploaded in my threads here. Maybe I should save scenes as well from now on?

I do roundabout the same thing but with .max files, though most of the stuff in them could not be exported to any other file type so i have little choice but to use a .max.

 

Its an old habit from when i was a beginner (pretty sure i still am a beginner) and would experiment in what i did.

And if things went completely foobar then i could just go back to before things went bad, so i only ever make a new save when doing something new and untried.

 

That habit is slowly being replaced with duplicating meshes and hiding them in the scene..

 

I *CAN* though recreate a scene with the whole process I followed to get that last mesh pretty much exactly from scratch, as i know what I did (just not what I did wrong). I can also provide a scene of the next step I will need to do in the process - making the _1 version, and also a scene for the step after that: taking the body/bodies, importing the shorts, and exporting again. I (finally) have another day free tomorrow, so I should be able to do it all - would that be okay?

 

Yep that would be okay, hopefully it will shed some light on the problem.

[FastestDogInTheDistrict]

THREAD NECROMANCY!!

 

 

 

...watch this space!