White House Petition - For Changing Refund Policies On Software

[sniperdoc]

I suggest that everyone sign this. Whether you are from the USA or not.

 

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/institute-industry-wide-return-policy-video-games-rely-remote-servers-and-drm-function-properly/nMy1wrtC

You can say, "This doesn't mean anything" or "That won't change a thing." And you're absolutely right... but at least you can say you tried. So, sign it.

 

Sticky this maybe? At least until April 7th? =D

[Something]

Sorry, I see nowhere in the US Constitution that gives the Executive Branch, or hell, anywhere in the federal government, this kind of power.

[sniperdoc]

Sorry, I see nowhere in the US Constitution that gives the Executive Branch, or hell, anywhere in the federal government, this kind of power.

Well, I guess you're one of the ones that doesn't care... to each his own. At least I can say I tried. Because it takes 2 seconds of effort... plus... you must be really well versed in the statutes of law... nowhere in the constitution does it say corporations can ass-fuck its consumers either... we just let them do it because of people like you that don't do anything about it. Just sayin...

[Something]

The Constitution doesn't apply to the people, nor was it intended to. In fact the Constitution does the exact opposite.

 

9th Amendment: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

10th Amendment: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

 

Put simply, stop looking to the government to solve all your problems. Don't deal with companies that are going to skrew you.

[Dude500X]

Sorry, I see nowhere in the US Constitution that gives the Executive Branch, or hell, anywhere in the federal government, this kind of power.

 

 

And that is why your Government fails, state by state law systems are the laughing stock of the western world.

 

What these petitioners are trying to achieve is something most other western country's already have.. E.G, in NZ we can return PC games, even DRM ones, if they are faulty, hell, EB Games even take back games that don't work on peoples systems.

 

America has the most rubbish consumer laws ever, shops can refuse refunds if its in their store policy.. which I find incredibly laughable.

[Something]

And yet MOST SHOPS DO have return policies in the US. I personally returned a faulty replacement I purchased for my broken power chord and got a full refund, plus taxes. No federal or state law requires Best Buy to have to do that but they do it voluntarily. Isn't that amazing? Why do you think they do that?

[Dude500X]

And yet MOST SHOPS DO have return policies in the US. I personally returned a faulty replacement I purchased for my broken power chord and got a full refund, plus taxes. No federal or state law requires Best Buy to have to do that but they do it voluntarily. Isn't that amazing? Why do you think they do that?

 

 

It means that in America you have to rely on the good faith of a corporation if they screw up.

 

Not very consumer friendly.

[Something]

If a corporation skrews up, i'm out a few dollars, and I will buy from a different corporation in the future. If government skrews up i'm out thousands of dollars, and possibly much more since the government is a monopoly, and to change what government you choose to live under is an endeavor requiring vast sums of money and time investment. From a purely economic perspective i'd rather corporations be making those decisions than government.

[Airock]

I suggest that everyone sign this. Whether you are from the USA or not.

 

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/institute-industry-wide-return-policy-video-games-rely-remote-servers-and-drm-function-properly/nMy1wrtC

 

You can say, "This doesn't mean anything" or "That won't change a thing." And you're absolutely right... but at least you can say you tried. So, sign it.

 

Sticky this maybe? At least until April 7th? =D

 

Well, if it requires DRM (and we can choose out DRM service), but not a constant online connection (assuming the game doesn't require player to player interaction). This way I don't have a problem with DRM requirement.

 

However, most of the time you are forced to use only one company's DRM, and are not allowed to choose one format for all PC games you play.

 

This IMO is considered tying, and violates antitrust laws. When you buy a Back and Decker hammer, they don't force you to buy Black and Decker nails to get the hammer. If they happened to be packaged together, then you are still not forced to use the nails with the hammer.

 

Although, with DRM you are forced to buy and use the game and DRM together.

 

This provides an economical advantage over other DRM services which could be preferred by the customer. 

 

ex. being forced to use origin to play an EA game when you prefer Steam.

[sniperdoc]

Put simply, stop looking to the government to solve all your problems. Don't deal with companies that are going to skrew you.

First off, you completely misinterpreted the amendments... but a good copy/paste nonetheless...

 

To name just the 9th Amendment, it serves to protect other fundamental liberties that are implicit, though not mentioned, in the Bill of Rights. And... I'm sorry... what was the Bill of Rights...?

 

Secondly, it is the government and its people that is at fault for allowing corporations to have so much leeway. So, we DO have to take it to the federal government. These non-existent consumer rights, when it comes to entertainment software, are entirely one sided. While I agree with you, that people should just stop dealing with said company, they've pretty much cornered the markets in one way or the other, either through the variety of software or even the numerous platforms... which all of those, will continue to provide streams of revenue and keep them afloat.

 

This is where the problem lies. People, especially gamers and young kid gamers, don't give a shit. People like you, that won't take 2 seconds to sign a petition that MIGHT actually do some good. It might not, but you'd rather complain and say it won't do anything. THAT is precisely where the problem is. People that say, "OH i won't buy EA ever again, and then instead of a PC game, go buy an EA console game."

 

As far as the legal system in the US in general... Just as an example, because of the flawed justice system it is totally ok to have a conflict of interest... i.e. an ex-Monsanto legal attorney that is now in charge of a case of Monsanto vs a Farmer. The Monsanto attorney, attorney no longer, is now a judge, and is in charge of the case. The entire US government is filled with conflict of interest and is one gigantic flaw.

 

Regardless, change will never happen if we don't try to take SOME steps, whatever they may be.

[Something]

Sorry, your drive-by commentary doesn't fly. EXPLAIN to me HOW I "completely misinterpreted" the 9th and 10th amendments and maybe i'll consider treating what you said as though you have some credibility.

[sniperdoc]

Your comment was rather fly by as well... I can cut and paste too, but I pasted my backup as to why for at least one point.

 

I'm no legal expert and don't claim to be... however, I'm Google certified enough to see that just reading the amendments themselves, or in depth discussions about what they mean, that what you pasted doesn't apply to what we're discussing.

Beyond that... the point is that it doesn't take any effort to sign that petition. Even if that petition doesn't go anywhere, you have decided not to sign it. Which, if you're fine with being taken advantage of by the Entertainment Software Industry... I'm ok with that. But,  it sounds like you do care, otherwise you wouldn't have given your input. So, you not signing it, well... is just representative of pretty much most of the "gamer  culture." We're always very good at commenting on something to feel like we know something but we're not doing anything about it.

It's the "It doesn't affect me, so I don't give a shit... but woooooah when it does affect me... I'm going to cry out. But since it doesn't affect me at this moment right now, I'll just paste some information like I know something about it, because I need to be heard for some reason or another." type attitude.

 

If you're not going to sign then say so... but bringing negativity into the conversation stating why it won't work... sure... you're exactly right... that's what you're manifesting, what you're bringing into the discussion, and what your focus is on, that it won't work.

 

If you think it will fail, it probably will. That makes for a great positive attitude...

 

Here, I'll give you the title of the petition again... and I would like YOU to explain how this affects you in a negative way:

"Institute an industry-wide return policy for video games that rely on remote servers and DRM to function properly."

 

I personally see nothing offensive or unreasonable here. It is a generalized statement and, sure, more detailed items need to be ironed out, such as what a "reasonable time-period for a service outage is" before you can ask for a refund, or how long the refund policy can be in effect... i.e. for 30 days after purchase, etc... But this, is just to get the Whitehouse to see, the public is not okay with being taken advantage of.

How many people can say that they've talked to lawyers about the shitty business practices by the Entertainment Software Industries? Can you? I can say I did, but you know what... some of those lawyers won't take you seriously unless you talk to the big daddy-o's that deal with Software IP and Copyright law and most of those guys, they work for companies like EA. I have 3 friends that are lawyers, one even has a professor he worked for, that was teaching classes about this type of stuff at Uni and he was going to get me in touch with her... However, there was no followup. It's like they don't take you seriously unless you throw dollar bills at them... and THAT... is what annoys me most.

I personally monitor several websites concerning game laws and sites wanting to make a change in the industry. Sites like ReclaimYourGame.com that are actively working with publishers and developers, using real survey data, taken from actual gamers, discussing their wants/needs to introduce change. Sites like GamePolitics.com, that in its early days was VERY proactive, but seems to have hit this slump that many web sites dedicated to change fall into, a kind of "loss of steam" type thing. I have a bunch of others but I'm at work and don't have memory to recall every site I check in at once in a while.

[Something]

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how what this petition is advocating for is constitutional.

[The DarkSlayer]

Signed.

 

[sniperdoc]

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how what this petition is advocating for is constitutional.

You'll be waiting a long time... I don't need to verify my e-peen and thanks for proving my point.

[Something]

 

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how what this petition is advocating for is constitutional.

You'll be waiting a long time... I don't need to verify my e-peen and thanks for proving my point.

Answer the goddamn question. Is this petition advocating for the government to do something that is unconstitutional (in other words, lawless, authoritarian) or not? Until you do so i'm operating under the assumption you're deliberately operating under the assumption that a government must have unlimited power and authority so long as it operates in such a way that it is convenient to you right now.

 

You want me to explain how the petition affects me negatively? How about "it undermines my ability to live in a free republic" with this insistence that the government chips away at the limits on its power. Oh, it's minor. Sure. I mean it's not like authoritarianism and totalitarianism happens little-by-little.

[Something]

If it displeases you so much, buy from companies with GOOD return policies in the future. Out of curiosity, can you tell me which legislation, law, executive order, or judicial order is forcing EA to give out copies of Dead Space 3, Mass Effect 3, Battlefield 3, Sim City 4, etc for free to purchasers of Sim City 5 or are they doing that voluntarily to save face?

[Something]

I think you missed my question. Which legislation, executive order, or judicial decision forced EA to give those games as compensation to the purchasers of Sim City 5?

[Something]

So giving a government already unmoored from the limits of its power an even greater license to dictate to citizens what they can and cannot do with their work is worth your immediate convenience? Excuse me? Keep in mind those companies don't have to have return policies. They aren't required to compensate consumers for bad purchases. They don't even have to put out any of the products, goods, and services you take for granted. You're right. This isn't about EA. It's about spoiled brats taking a great privilege that could only come about when the government has their hands off the throat of the market for granted, as though it will always be there when the government DOES put its hand on the throat of the market.

[sniperdoc]

So giving a government already unmoored from the limits of its power an even greater license to dictate to citizens what they can and cannot do with their work is worth your immediate convenience? Excuse me? Keep in mind those companies don't have to have return policies. They aren't required to compensate consumers for bad purchases. They don't even have to put out any of the products, goods, and services you take for granted. You're right. This isn't about EA. It's about spoiled brats taking a great privilege that could only come about when the government has their hands off the throat of the market for granted, as though it will always be there when the government DOES put its hand on the throat of the market.

Actually all of what you just said is speculation and completely subjective.

 

They aren't required to compensate consumers... absolutely correct, but not giving some type of compensation would mean their demise as an AMERICAN company. What if the person that bought a digital download just plays SimCity...? What if they don't play any of those other titles and don't care for them... are you going to shove the "essentially" FREE Plants vs Zombies and Bejeweled at them??? How is that fair compensation?

 

You, calling people that just want what they paid for, spoiled brats shows exactly the place you're coming from.

 

 

Some of what you say doesn't even make sense...

 

They don't even have to put out any of the products, goods, and services you take for granted.

 

Uuuh... then what is the point for their existence...? Goods and services "you take for granted???" I'm confused again... they're supposed to be providing that service... that is their JOB... they're getting paid for their JOB via a contract called a receipt, through that we make them exist. If there aren't any laws to back up that they need to be able to provide said VIABLE "goods and services" for that contract then it's just like selling that snake oil... and the fact of the matter is... there AREN'T any laws that protect the American consumer.

 

The EULA/TOS/SLA's are so entirely one sided and unconscionable that it prevents any consumer protection from being effective. The only backup the consumer has is to rely on the same corporation that produces said "goods and services" to have a good conscience and provide some form of compensation for a non-working product and it is only in their best interest to do so. However, providing a time-restricted, limited-range of products instead of credit, as compensation, shows exactly how much, EA in particular, cares about "compensating" their consumers.

 

The petition is about asking the government to look at how corporate america is taking advantage of the people. From your responses, it almost sounds like you're a lobbyist for the ECA/ESA.

 

Corporate America has been taking advantage of Joe Small ever since Snake Oil was sold in the Wild West... corporate America is precisely the reason why the world is in the Recession it is in now. Someone HAS to step in and because of people like you, it sure isn't going to be the people. Who then is going to control how unconscionable a EULA/TOS/SLA is? The corporation?

 

All we are asking, is that the government examine the existing laws concerning Entertainment Software and the terms of refunds. If a product does not perform as intended, it should be returnable. Period. It doesn't matter if its a book, a movie or a game and whether it's a digital download or a physical copy.

 

The way license authentication works now, I'm really amazed that EA refused refunds on digital downloads. There's no difference in the way the downloaded game is activated vs its physical counter-part. If your license key doesn't work, you call EA, they issue a new one... so the database is the same. It comes down to the fact that this is entirely based on greed and the fact that on a physical DVD purchase, you haven't had the chance to read the EULA/Terms/SLA. On a digital download you had to read the terms before installing Origin and I think once again the terms are mentioned before you click the Purchase button.

 

At this point, that type of policy is entirely greed based and just simply wrong. A digital download should be just as entitled to a refund as a physical copy of a game. It has nothing to do with piracy, it has nothing to do with protecting their IP at all. It has simply got to do with ripping off the consumer and SOMEONE needs to do something about it... and it sure isn't going to be you, Something.

 

So, while you can spew off like you really know anything about the judicial process or what the executive and legislative branches may have to do with this... it doesn't matter. You're not doing anything about it. So, why are you even on here and commenting with your negativity?