Does anyone know how to get follower mods with RM-exported head sculpt to work in SE?

[Anbeegod]

Topic tells the story. The general plan for now is to get NifMerge to work (it's pretty much the only sensible option for someone who knows nothing about modeling). To do that, I must first get SE's facegeom readable.

 

Googled relevant stuff, but none of those work. I couldn't find the SE-CK-generated facegeom's NiTriShape nor BSDynamicTriShape in Nifskope.

[migal130]

Are you using the latest NifSkope 2.0 beta (r6, I believe).  If you look at an SSE CK generated head nif in it, you'll see almost nothing but BSDynamicTriShape all over the place.
 
I've blown about 12 hours trying to figure this one out and I've made little progress.  What I've learned so far:
 
- The new CK is always exporting head nifs as black on converted plugins.  I'm not sure what causes it, but I suspect it has something to do with the difference in shaders.
 
- The new CK automatically saves head nifs and textures to folders named after your plugin, even if the NPCs in your plugin are modified vanilla or DLC NPCs.  For those who don't know, the old CK required that you press <ctrl-F4>, which would save the head nifs and textures to the original plugin's folder for the NPCs (a Skyrim.esm folder for a vanilla NPC, a Hearthfires.esm folder for a Hearthfires NPC, etc.).
 
- <Ctrl-F4> still works in the new CK and when it is used, it will place the head nifs and textures in the folders for the original plugin, just like the old CK.  However, I've been unable to find documentation stating where the files actually need to be, in a folder named after your plugin, or in the folders named after the NPC's original plugin (like the old game and old CK).  I can't really tell if one or both work, because the heads are black in game.
 
- A RaceMenu/NifMerge-derived head nif from the old game can be used in the new game, with some minor adjustments to texture paths, and the head will not be black in game.  However, the character's eye geometry will me missing in game (even though it is visible in the latest NifSkope) and if the character had 3rd party hair instead of vanilla hair, it may also be missing (this might be a nitristrip issue, haven't checked yet).
 
- I assume I'm not the only one currently experimenting with converting NPC mods in the new CK to see the "Textures should have been converted offline" warning.  I have no idea what it means and I've yet to see an explanation via google search.
 
- AFAIK, there are three major differences accounting for our head nif problems.  The nif file structure itself is different, the shading system is different and the lighting system is different.
 
- Lastly, it may be possible to simply use an NPC plugin and its nifs/textures from the old game due to a degree of backwards compatibility and I suspect that what appear to be converted characters currently available on the SSE Nexus are in reality just that – not really converted.  However, Arthmoor and other beta testers have written that this will lead to problems later and likely slow the game down.

[Anbeegod]

Thanks for the tips dude

[migal130]

Thanks for the tips dude

 

Not so much tips as a report of my failures, but it's something, I suppose.

 

There are similar conversations taking place over in the Nexus forums, but I haven't seen anything solid yet.

 

Link to latest NifSkope.  If you figure something out, by all means, share.  What's the point of a future SL or OSex for SSE if all the toons are so fugly nobody wants to have sex with them.

[yatol]

 

- The new CK is always exporting head nifs as black on converted plugins.  I'm not sure what causes it, but I suspect it has something to do with the difference in shaders.

 

 

black skin that's have vertex color to no (in nitrishape for skyrim nif, for fallout nif, don't know)

 

open whatever you did

open a sse head nif (one from the bsa)

and compare

 

[wibllewobble]

There is a post on nexus about this, I converted 2 followers yesterday, and ran into two issues.

The NIF in the face gen directory has TriShapes which are missing the has tangent flag, only the face mesh itself should not have it set. This results in missing bits, hair, eyebrows etc. Apparently it's the result of a bug in nifmerge.

The second issue I ran into was meshes made from tri strips, in my case they were armor pieces, so I just deleted them, the current nifscope, can't as far as I van see fix them.

[migal130]

There is a post on nexus about this, I converted 2 followers yesterday, and ran into two issues.

The NIF in the face gen directory has TriShapes which are missing the has tangent flag, only the face mesh itself should not have it set. This results in missing bits, hair, eyebrows etc. Apparently it's the result of a bug in nifmerge.

The second issue I ran into was meshes made from tri strips, in my case they were armor pieces, so I just deleted them, the current nifscope, can't as far as I van see fix them.

 

As I understand it, the latest Outfit Studio can import those armor meshes and when you export them, the strips will have been converted (triangulated) automatically.  There's also a spell for it in the latest NifSkope.

 

When you say you converted two followers yesterday, are you talking about custom followers that are new to the game because of your mod, or were they vanilla/DLC followers that you modified and then converted?  Also, I assume you didn't use the facegen head nifs produced by the CK and instead used head nifs from the old game?

[migal130]

 

 

black skin that's have vertex color to no (in nitrishape for skyrim nif, for fallout nif, don't know)

 

open whatever you did

open a sse head nif (one from the bsa)

and compare

 

 

This is easier said than done.  We aren't comparing apples to apples here.  SSE head nifs have no NiTriShapes.  They have BSDynamicTriShapes, which have some, but not all data fields in common with NiTriShapes.

 

Edit:  Found it.  In the SSE head nifs, vertex colors can be found for the head mesh under BSDynamicTriShape > BSDismemberSkinInstance > NiSkinPartition > Vertex Data.  Bone weight, bone index and UV coordinates for the specific point are also stored there.  Unfortunately, finding it only confirms that the black heads aren't caused by a problem with vertex colors.  The SSE facegen head nif has the same vertex color settings as the actual head nif the CK uses to make the facegen, which has the same vertex color settings as the head nifs in the old game (RGB and A are all set to 1.0).  It's worth mentioning that the actual SSE head nif is not displayed as black in NifSkope.  It is only when the CK converts it into a facegen head nif that it becomes black.

[yatol]

 

This is easier said than done.  We aren't comparing apples to apples here.  SSE head nifs have no NiTriShapes.

 

 

bethesda didn't put a nif convertor with that kit? they are so much help to convert mods to sse...

 

click on the meshes, then on something to convert nitrishape to BSDynamicTriShapes (don't have sse, waiting for the benchmarks, and tools to skip that time consuming convert crap, and skse, and pikachu)

 

 

 

 

 

[migal130]

 

bethesda didn't put a nif convertor with that kit? they are so much help to convert mods to sse...

 

click on the meshes, then on something to convert nitrishape to BSDynamicTriShapes (don't have sse, waiting for the benchmarks, and tools to skip that time consuming convert crap, and skse, and pikachu)

 

 

The latest NifSkope cannot convert NiTriShapes to BSDynamicTriShapes or vice versa.

[TTRJN]

Hmm. FO4's LooksMenu can convert BSTriShape to BSDynamicTriShape, if former has .tri file. Need to dig in that direction.

[wibllewobble]

 

There is a post on nexus about this, I converted 2 followers yesterday, and ran into two issues.

The NIF in the face gen directory has TriShapes which are missing the has tangent flag, only the face mesh itself should not have it set. This results in missing bits, hair, eyebrows etc. Apparently it's the result of a bug in nifmerge.

The second issue I ran into was meshes made from tri strips, in my case they were armor pieces, so I just deleted them, the current nifscope, can't as far as I van see fix them.

As I understand it, the latest Outfit Studio can import those armor meshes and when you export them, the strips will have been converted (triangulated) automatically. There's also a spell for it in the latest NifSkope.

 

When you say you converted two followers yesterday, are you talking about custom followers that are new to the game because of your mod, or were they vanilla/DLC followers that you modified and then converted? Also, I assume you didn't use the facegen head nifs produced by the CK and instead used head nifs from the old game?

I converted a couple of custom followers from Mr Skyrim GTX.

So I didn't have the original assets, I just used nifscope to fix the obvious issues, and deleted the bad armor.

I didn't have to change any of the NiTriShapes to DynamicTriShapes.

[migal130]

The NIF in the face gen directory has TriShapes which are missing the has tangent flag, only the face mesh itself should not have it set. This results in missing bits, hair, eyebrows etc. Apparently it's the result of a bug in nifmerge.

 

Confirmed.  The missing Has Tangents flag (a vector flag) is the key to getting the old nifmerged facegen nifs to show up correctly in the new game.  I'm still having a problem with the mouth/teeth on my characters, but I'll figure it out.

 

Edit:  Mouth/teeth was also the has tangents flag, although it looked like a different error in game until I set it correctly.

[Anbeegod]

How do I set the Has Tangents flag?

[migal130]

How do I set the Has Tangents flag?

 

I'm sorry.  For some reason I never saw this question.

 

In the latest NifSkope, find the NiTriShapeData block of every mesh in the NIF file other than the head (you're looking for mouth, hair, eyes, brows).  When viewing the block list for the NiTriShapeData, you'll see a Vector Flags setting.  It will only have UV_Set_1.  Double-click it and you'll see a drop-down scroll box that allows you to add Has Tangents.

 

I'm still working on this.  These are my additional findings up to this point:

 

- I just learned this tonight, so I can't be more specific.  There is a difference between facegen nif files generated in the new CK automatically because you saved your plugin and those generated intentionally with <ctrl-F4>.  The nif files made with <ctrl-F4> are a significantly different file size than those created automatically.  I do not yet know the cause.

 

- At this time, I can find no way to get a facegen nif that was created via the Oldrim RaceMenu/NifMerge method into the new game without leaving all the involved geometry as it was in the old game and relying on backwards compatibility. Meaning, everything must remain NiTriShapes. I know of no method to easily convert the old NiTriShape mesh blocks into the new BSDynamicTriShapes mesh blocks.  NifSkope hasn't had a reliable mesh import since something like version 1.12 and NifSkope 2.0 doesn't even include it as a menu option.

 

- Do not change *anything* in the old plugin between opening it in the new CK and saving it for conversion to SSE.  I made this mistake and it cost me a lot of time.  I ran into problems because I was trying to be efficient.  My housecarls for old Skyrim consisted of two plugins – one for Hearthfires and one for Vanilla. I needed to merge them for SSE. This created what are essentially duplicate records, but with slightly different names, ie, MHBVnordHeadHP for vanilla heads and MHBHnordHeadHP for Hearthfires heads.  I got cute and decided it was smart to delete one of them and simply point the actor facegen settings for Hearthfires and Vanilla characters to use the same one.  After all, they were identical other than in name. This was the case for quite a few other items, such as the common straight scalp with KS hairs. Bad idea. I learned the facegen nifs are indexed based on the naming conventions you used when making your plugin. If you change the name of any CK component involved in the creation of your NPC, you’ll end up with the grey face bug, because your new plugin won't exactly match the old facegen nif you’re converting from Oldrim.  Except in SSE, the grey face bug is black, because of shading/lighting differences.

 

- Once the plugin is done, simply delete all the facegen nifs and dds files it created.  Copy over the old facegen nifs into the SSE directory structure and put them into their proper corresponding folders, named after Skyrim.esm, Hearthfires.esm, Dragonborn.esm, Dawnguard.esm, whatever. The new CK saving that stuff into folders named after your own plugin is probably a bug and I now know those automatic facegen saves aren't exactly the same as forced <ctrl-F4> facgen saves.  After copying the facegen nifs, you must open each one in NifSkope 2.0r6 and go to the NiTriShapeData block for mouth, brows, eyes and all hair parts. Each one should have its ‘Has Tangents’ vector flag set, but it won’t, because there was a bug in NifMerge that didn't matter until now. The old game didn’t care, but the new game does. If you don’t set all those flags, the mesh for each part without it set won’t show up in game. The only one that shouldn’t have the flag is the head mesh itself.

 

Do all that, and you’ve got converted character faces that were made with the old game’s RaceMenu mod. But, at least for me, there is still one more hurdle.  The head shading is slightly off.  It is just a tad lighter than it should be and you can see a slight seam between neck and body, no matter the textures or body you are using (tested with both old CBBE and vanilla SSE bodies).  If I can figure out what's causing it, I'll post again.

 

Edit:  The head shading issue is deeper than just the converted Oldrim NIF file.  It happens when creating entirely new NIFs with the SSE CK, either by pressing <ctrl-F4> or when the NIF is created automatically.  Tested when using various different Oldrim texture sets, the shading problem persists, so it isn't textures.  Compared the Oldrim ESP to the SSE ESP (tint layers and QNAM lighting settings) and they match, so it isn't a bug in the plugin itself.  I validated the tint RGB settings against my tint mask coloring in Photoshop and they also match, so it isn't a tint mask problem.  I haven't yet tested to see if this occurs when creating an entirely new NPC, or if it only happens when modifying an existing NPC.

 

Edit 2:  My mind is a little blown now.  The slight shading difference between head and body is visible on all vanilla NPCs with vanilla bodies, textures and facegeoms.  It wasn't my mod or my NIFs.  I'm now wondering why I haven't seen people talking about it.  It can't be just my game and my graphics settings.