An Open Letter To Patreon.

[Guest Katherlne]

http://www.openlettertopatreon.com/

 

So any chance to win against a system?

[Guffel]

I kept up to date on that issue from when the letter came up a few month ago. I don't think that anything will change by that, but the pressure on Patreon is good.

 

Patreon knows that they make lots of money from adult creators, but they're afraid about their reputation... I think that Patreon doesn't want a shitstrom that they are a place for incest, beastiality, minor, and sexual violence content like games, stories or pictures... so they banned those specific branches.

 

Porn was always forbidden, but the grey area of adult content not. So they want to milk the cow as best as possible without risking a bad image in public.

 

I think things will stay as they are now...

[myuhinny]

Their blocking of shit won't stop anything all it does is add a new step to the game author's to do list for each update. Make the game as patreon wants it to be as to get past their rules and censors at the same time that they upload their game they also upload a patch on a different site and when used turns their game back to how it was suppose to be. (IE) Incest games landlady or lady  will change back to mother tenants or girls will be changed back to sisters and so on or the author just changes their naming system around so that the player can name everyone in the house as well as give them a title.

 

I for one hope they lose their asses on this move as well as half or more of their revenue.

[RitualClarity]

A long time ago with BetaMax and VHS and even older, places that held movies and other entertainment had a section in the back or side where you could go and get some of the "other" stuff. Many places with good rep did this. Even one place that was a chain but shortly later stopped. Anyway, the issue wasn't the content but that it was controlled and placed in such a location where only those that wanted it, and knew about it, could get it. Same as it was at convenience marts and the nude magazines (when magazines were ... questionable and could get people in trouble if you took them to the wrong counties or such) had them but you had to ask. They were under the counter or behind a cabinet etc.

 

I am pointing this out for this reason. They can take care of all content (provided that it isn't illegal where they are incorporated at ... I.E bestiality, incest etc) just have the rules to have the content safely behind a main screen, where you have to have proof of age (credit card etc) yada, yada, yada... Not searchable through Google, advertised by the site etc, etc. Those that do know, can get access (direct) and those that don't, won't be aware of it. Nobody would be harmed or hurt by this. Extreme content can still be censored as needed according to the laws where they are incorporated at. Not saying they have a free for all but there is a middle ground for this.

 

if they ignore this... there will be some company that will take their model and run with it, and make lots of money on this while they lose and lose. I doubt that they could say a single thing considering it isn't competing for their business (legally that is). Also doubt they would even want to ;) .

[myuhinny]

Now a days those magazines are not even under any counter they are on the display stands with the rest of the magazines but are placed at the top highest section with the middle pane white or something to prevent anyone from seeing the cover and most adult magazines the cover comes censored till you buy it and remove the wrapper.

 

They could of set up a adult section like most people with a brain would of done but they seem to lack any type of common sense or brain power over there.

 

I guarantee that one day someone will appear and they will rip that golden scepter out of their hands and shove it up their ass kick them to the curb and take their spot and become the new king. Seen it happen many times like mediafail went full on retard and ended up losing 90% of their customers who jumped ship to other ones like mega.nz.

[dharvinia]

All of this still points to the money trail. They give people the illusion that they are safe , in control and that they have freedom of choice, The illusion of freedom will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater.

[Vaelorian]

 

I will not be supporting this letter.

 

The reason I will not be supporting it lies in it's first paragraph, but I will not quote it due to it being political (which is against the LL rules).

 

That is all I will say in the matter, unless given the "go-ahead" to explain further by a member of the LL staff.

If any of you feel the need to hear out my full explanation, you may contact me via PM, though I feel it's quite obvious.

 

Good day,

-Vael

[DCLXVI]

On 11/25/2017 at 2:41 PM, ritualclarity said:

Same as it was at convenience marts and the nude magazines (when magazines were ... questionable and could get people in trouble if you took them to the wrong counties or such) had them but you had to ask. They were under the counter or behind a cabinet etc.

 

 

:O i never even realized that. The nudie magz are gone from the book stores. I remember back then going into borders (or some popular chain) and they had magz.

[RitualClarity]

15 hours ago, DCLXVI said:

:O i never even realized that. The nudie magz are gone from the book stores. I remember back then going into borders (or some popular chain) and they had magz.

I doubt they are in popular book stores now. They are still n some convenience stores and gas stations behind the counter (at least last time I looked which was a long, long time ago. The Internet has such better content than any magazine... :P and eventually... those photos find their way on the internet as well ;) )

[Guest]

21 hours ago, Vaelorian said:

 

I will not be supporting this letter.

 

The reason I will not be supporting it lies in it's first paragraph, but I will not quote it due to it being political (which is against the LL rules).

 

That is all I will say in the matter, unless given the "go-ahead" to explain further by a member of the LL staff.

If any of you feel the need to hear out my full explanation, you may contact me via PM, though I feel it's quite obvious.

 

Good day,

-Vael

 

The first paragraph is:

"We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression. We’re deeply disappointed in your handling of clarity with regards to adult content on your platform, and the mixed messages we have been receiving. Not only that, the most vulnerable among us – disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English – are literally scared for our lives. After hard-won fandoms finally supporting us on Patreon, just one missed payment can mean homelessness."

 

And it is not related to politics or anything against the LLab spirit or rules.

In case it is not this one you had in mind, please PM me the text.

 

For me, you can explain, freely (without insulting, of course.)

 

Cheers,

(one of the sleepless staff members...)

[myuhinny]

Man I hate bright ass copy and paste stuff makes it hard to read which I usually end up just ignoring instead or removing it. Which is one of the reason's I still paste what I copy into notebook to remove that effect before pasting it in. Sometimes you have to do it to fix a link sometimes as well.

[Farmthat]

Wait--I'm getting super confused. Do we love or hate Patreon today?

[RitualClarity]

3 hours ago, Farmthat said:

Wait--I'm getting super confused. Do we love or hate Patreon today?

Get on the page... :P

It is a LOVE - HATE relationship ;)

[DCLXVI]

we love to hate them but hate that we love them

[Vaelorian]

6 hours ago, CPU said:

 

The first paragraph is:

"We’re writing you today both as adult creators and concerned individuals about free, legal, expression. We’re deeply disappointed in your handling of clarity with regards to adult content on your platform, and the mixed messages we have been receiving. Not only that, the most vulnerable among us – disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English – are literally scared for our lives. After hard-won fandoms finally supporting us on Patreon, just one missed payment can mean homelessness."

 

And it is not related to politics or anything against the LLab spirit or rules.

In case it is not this one you had in mind, please PM me the text.

 

For me, you can explain, freely (without insulting, of course.)

 

Cheers,

(one of the sleepless staff members...)

 

Very well then.

 

The first paragraph contains the phrase:

Quote

disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English

This is a phrase that demands special consideration on an argument completely irrelevant to the point; with all due respect, I do not honestly care what an individual does in their own bedroom. I do not care what members of society they find attractive.

 

A relevant argument would be one of poverty, or one of infamy and institutional pressure. I can even see the phrase "disproportionately those of us who create games with queer, trans or disabled PROTAGONISTS and CHARACTERS" being viable.

The developer's skin color and sexuality are not.

 

The entire phrase is predicated on social justice, and the concept that the people who are on top of the progressive stack should be given privileges based entirely on things that they themselves claim they cannot control; none of us chose to be born to any given race. None of us choose to find a specific individual attractive, or a specific trait, or a specific gender.

 

I base my argument on the American Declaration of Independence:

Quote

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

And the demand for special consideration based on things those men were created with is wrong in my eyes; it is "People of this group have the right to the pursuit of happiness. People of that group - don't" mentality.

And yes, I do consider having a nice, cozy, work-when-you-feel-like-it (so long as you get things done) stay-at-home job to be a form of happiness.

 

It is what many call "identity politics" and I will not, have never and will never take any kind of part in such a thing because, to me, ALL individuals were created equal - regardless of their race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, culture or any other birth-given factor. They ALL deserve the same rights, and if Patreon wishes to grant the right to create a certain kind of content it should be for ALL individuals - not just a specific group or other.

 

I hope this clarifies things.

Respectfully,

-Vael

[RitualClarity]

I see your point ... to a point, and understand the letter could be phrased a bit differently. However, the comment

Quote

disproportionately queer, trans, disabled, people of color and those whose first language is not English

Is important as those are the individuals that at different times and different places, don't have equality many times due to their choices in life. The author writes about how they are the most vulnerable as a qualifier for the rest. This includes homelessness. Some of the above due to their situation they might only be able to do the work that the are currently making money on Patron and as a result could face homelessness now. (for example a transgender going through their transformation and not able to get decent job outside of this) The criticism as I see it is not that there are changes or rules but that they aren't clear and concise and as a result causing a great deal of stress. I see this part as the main part of the letter. The most important part and the first parts of the introduction. Had patron been more clear and concise in their processes and intents this would have been minimized greatly. As a result of their not being clear and giving conflicting info, many of the above have based their income on working at home using patron services.

 

Again not the best way to lay out the letter to an cooperation to get the desired results. It has taken a serious issue and added emotions and details that can detract from the main purpose and as a result could cause confusion in itself. On this point it could have been better executed.

 

For your quote of the Declaration of Independence I add...

In response to the defense of queer, trans, disabled, people of color, language, sexual orientation, etc, etc. I believe the author of the letter was trying to make sure that those most at risk of being harmed was protected. Not to make it "identity politics" Currently as much as most of the US and the developed world accepts alternate lifestyles and choices, it is still difficult for many to get the basic needs covered.

 

@CPU

If this is getting to much into politics.. (especially since I have a FDR quote) feel free to delete or moderate it as you see fit.

[Froggy]

I petition that Patreon changes their name to Pimptreon.

 

That is all.

[Vaelorian]

Spoiler

2 hours ago, ritualclarity said:

I see your point ... to a point, and understand the letter could be phrased a bit differently. However, the comment

Is important as those are the individuals that at different times and different places, don't have equality many times due to their choices in life. The author writes about how they are the most vulnerable as a qualifier for the rest. This includes homelessness. Some of the above due to their situation they might only be able to do the work that the are currently making money on Patron and as a result could face homelessness now. (for example a transgender going through their transformation and not able to get decent job outside of this) The criticism as I see it is not that there are changes or rules but that they aren't clear and concise and as a result causing a great deal of stress. I see this part as the main part of the letter. The most important part and the first parts of the introduction. Had patron been more clear and concise in their processes and intents this would have been minimized greatly. As a result of their not being clear and giving conflicting info, many of the above have based their income on working at home using patron services.

 

Again not the best way to lay out the letter to an cooperation to get the desired results. It has taken a serious issue and added emotions and details that can detract from the main purpose and as a result could cause confusion in itself. On this point it could have been better executed.

 

For your quote of the Declaration of Independence I add...

In response to the defense of queer, trans, disabled, people of color, language, sexual orientation, etc, etc. I believe the author of the letter was trying to make sure that those most at risk of being harmed was protected. Not to make it "identity politics" Currently as much as most of the US and the developed world accepts alternate lifestyles and choices, it is still difficult for many to get the basic needs covered.

 

@CPU

If this is getting to much into politics.. (especially since I have a FDR quote) feel free to delete or moderate it as you see fit.

 

 

I disagree.

Had the intent been as you said, the wording would have been to that effect; "Those of us under significant financial stress" or "Those of us incapable of performing other jobs or duties" or whatever-else-you'd-like. Anything other than that is completely irrelevant.

I care not if a man is incapable of finding a job because of his disabilities or because of an over-saturation of workers in the market in his area or any other kind of reason. I care only that he has tried and is incapable of finding a job. That is the only thing that matters in this argument.

 

Also, I would like to draw your attention to the wording itself. It's explicit and deliberate, and is in fact the exact phrasing used by social justice advocates who believe that certain groups should be prioritized over others in various ways in society.

Notice also the order at which they are listed: first the gender-queer (the top of the stack) then the trans (#2 on the social justice stack) and only then the disabled. Had the intention been to draw attention to the fact some of them cannot do other work, the disabled would have been the first ones listed, with those during transition second (and not all trans people, as is written there).

 

Respectfully,

-Vael

 

P.S. Perhaps we should take this to PMs? Despite the "go-ahead" by a member of staff I feel this is stretching the limits of LL's rules quite thin.

[R-Lo]

https://www.patreon.com/guidelines#adult-content

 

If you scroll to part about Adult Content it outlines the issue...

 

Rape glorification, beastiality and incest are not permitted, even in an illustrated form.

These are the creators that have started this petition as they are the ONLY ones under threat of losing accounts,

Also the people who are showing actual people in their works and not drawings or CGI models,

 

Nobody here at LL is under threat as long as they are within the guidelines,

I queried this myself and the patreon staff responded in writing that adult content is fine provided the "adult content" tag is checked and anything explicit be posted as "patreon only" and not "public"

 

Those who are in jeopardy are the people who are providing non consential and violent sexual material, displaying minors in sexual acts and people engaging in animal porn,

 

Eg.. if site exists that has altered Wickedwhims for Sims 4 to work with children, it would NOT be allowed to use Patreon.

If someone creates rape or beastiality animations, this will force their account to be closed too.

 

Most of us here have nothing to fear so I don't feel that it's important for us to sign,

This petition is purely for the purpose of protecting those who are into things that are not socially acceptable in ANY community, 

[Guest Katherlne]

2 hours ago, R-Lo said:

https://www.patreon.com/guidelines#adult-content

 

If you scroll to part about Adult Content it outlines the issue...

 

Rape glorification, beastiality and incest are not permitted, even in an illustrated form.

These are the creators that have started this petition as they are the ONLY ones under threat of losing accounts,

Also the people who are showing actual people in their works and not drawings or CGI models,

 

I hate one thing in this situations - duplicity and greed of Patreon and PayPal. They decide, what part of porn media acceptable and what not. When all porn media itself is forbidden. Patreon and PayPal open public service platform, so please, stick with laws and standards - NO PORN CONTENT AT ALL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION! But no, they understand what happen if they do it. They lose a lot money and an Patreon analog will instantly appear, yes with some problem on start but anyway. 
 

[R-Lo]

44 minutes ago, Katherlne said:

I hate one thing in this situations - duplicity and greed of Patreon and PayPal. They decide, what part of porn media acceptable and what not. When all porn media itself is forbidden. Patreon and PayPal open public service platform, so please, stick with laws and standards - NO PORN CONTENT AT ALL, WITHOUT EXCEPTION! But no, they understand what happen if they do it. They lose a lot money and an Patreon analog will instantly appear, yes with some problem on start but anyway. 
 

It's probably more down to what classes as legal porn,

The kind of stuff you'd find in a licensed environment such as pornhub or from a company that doesn't hide behind alternate user accounts eg playboy,  brazzers or nubiles is considered mainstream and legal,

 

Child sites, snuff sites and zoophile sites are not considered legal nor is the activity itself which is highly punishable by the laws of most countries and the people who are convicted of these crimes generally face a much tougher time in the prisons among the convicts than any other crime.

 

Lots of illegal activities including drug dealing and prostitution are not allowed by Patreon to use them for support so it only makes sense that the purveyors of these illegal activities should be treated in the same manner,

 

 

I'm guessing that things like Sims 4 Dark Fantasy and Art of Submission would be against the rules but it'd need someone to report that,

It's not frowned upon here at LL so nobody is likely to stumble across those by accident or make trouble but the rule is pretty clear and most have nothing to worry about

 

 

[R-Lo]

2 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

"not socially acceptable in ANY community" .. So I guess Galgat (Crowning Isle), Gregathit (LAPF which allows creature interactions), DarkConsole (allows impregnation by creatures in SoulGemOven), Mike24 (Sims 3 Pets animations), OnikiKay (KW allowing of creature interactions), Fejeena (LoversBitch), and a toss load of others who have made LL what it stands today fall under that, heck throw Ashal in there too because he has creature animations in his SexLab. (needs to be toggled). 

 

"Rape glorification" there goes Kimy (Devious Cursed Loot has a rape option), heck, anyone who works on the Devious Devices Framework mostly. Would Milk Mod Economy fall under that since you force NPCs to become milkmaids, technically it would be considered non-consensual? 

 

I think the original Animated Prostitution had rape.. so we need to inform Nexus aka Dark0ne aka Robin to remove it. 

 

*sarcasm is applied in parts of this post*

I'm still pretty new here and haven't really been outside of the Sims 4 section lol!

I guess those guys do fall under it too so if people are doing this I'll join too

 

How does it work? Not really familiar with much of the net stuff

[R-Lo]

53 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

How do the mods work? From my understanding Gregathit mentioned in another post his LAPF animations took 3yrs (or so) to do. So modding Oblivion (and probably Skyrim/Fallout as well) takes far longer than Sims animations. In terms of subject matter, I've seen stuff like Namira's Goat (cannibalism) and Necrophilia (Skyrim Defeat/Submit) on the board, so it is all fine with the exception of anything with children. Ashal made that rule clear with the removal of Children of the Sky (Skykids), and placed measures in SexLab to prevent those pairings from occurring.  Before that time anything and all was okay. Kinky World (a Sims 3 mod) has teenage pairings, so it skirts the edge of acceptability of LL's new ruling, but some teenage NPC additions are still up for Skyrim as well, so I'm guessing that is more of a gray area. Best to not go that close. Anything beyond simple mesh/texture replacing would be more work in regards to Bethesda games.

 

I hope that answers your question. *crosses fingers* :)

I'm sorry lol,

I mean to add to the list of petitioners haha! Have you signed this yourself?

 

Thanks for the explanation though, I only found out about modding last year after being a long-time console gamer and haven't used any other games yet, I know Sims 4 is left side open for modding has been made easy,

I looked at playing skyrim but struggled in finding where to start! Looks way more complicated,

Maybe soon I'll try playing and see if I can enjoy that too, Sims is fun but not very hands on in terms of play

[R-Lo]

6 hours ago, Alkpaz said:

I have signed it after reading https://docs.google.com/document/d/1DhWBPE1Hw4I39D56E6CATWVhZRd8KozWEDYrGNpP7Y4/edit

 

As for modding Skyrim, I would have to go with Ref's aka Ilja's guide: http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/594821545176386165/

 

Master Dan's aka STURM KATTEN [SC-KL] guide is a bit older but may also help (biased because I contributed to it's formation): http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/846956740639650936/

 

If you have further questions the guys from this group are very helpful and nice (known them for years): http://steamcommunity.com/groups/CoffeeRoom

 

They have a Coffee Room threads on Fallout 4 and Skyrim, best to ask there lest you get wrong or dated information. :P

 

LL has some great people as well (CPU can help for more detailed information, as well as any questions concerning mod creation), a lot of what they (CoffeeRoom) know does come from LL. Most of that knowledge comes from reading lots and lots of threads. :P

 

This list will help you stay away from certain mods: https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/523890681422555089/ by Nazenn. 

Thanks a lot! I might treat myself to it for the holidays 

[Hiroki]

As I understand it "pornographic" implies real humans, like selling real porn videos to people or providing IRL sex services (prostitution). I don't think that adult content creators should feel threatened.