SSE Criticism Thread Reloaded

[phillout]

12 hours ago, p80nchicken said:

A way Bethesda could have implemented a plugin system for papyrus that wouldn't have required something like SKSE is if they had made adding new functions possible by making the scripting system open source (or just accessible source) and had designed it to be extensible. There are some game engines that support this, most notably Unity. Obviously that takes work and work requires money and thought, and you know fam, rather just port the game and add microtransactions. Suck it up nerd, we're Bethesda. 

 

Agreed. They (technically) could put an effort into providing PC users with some binary plugins SDK, so their engine, not SKSE, would load those plugins and with a way to extend their scripting functionality. This could be done, and it would most probably be done if Skyrim would be a PC-exclusive game. 

 

Thing is - Skyrim is not a PC-exclusive title. And it's not based on Unity either. Something like this would require putting a lot of effort into functionality used by a relatively small part of an already small (about 14%) minority of PC users. I don't know of any company that would do something like that. Heck, even DOOM title isn't moddable anymore, unlike the good old days when all id Software games were extremely moddable, since the days of Quake 1 that used to be distributed with C plugins SDK, level editor and stuff.

 

The reason of companies losing interest in modding their games is that today there are almost no PC exclusive titles. Even Beth games started as a modding platform in the days when they were running on PCs. As soon as a game starts targeting console audience first - it's the end of 3rd party modding. Bethesda now has their own mods' distribution channels - Nexus etc are competitors. Why all this comes as a surprise?

 

 

Now... if there would be a game kind of similar to TES series - providing a similar open-world experience, unlimited character building, moddability, etc - but without all that mess, I would definitely jump its bandwagon in a blink of an eye. Is there one?

 

If not - there is no choice (and this is the real problem) and there is no point in complaining.  Bethesda won't stop CC updates no matter how much people complain and how many petitions they write.  And the question is then - what can we do about it? 

 

Speaking of SKSE - yes, it has to plug itself into the Papyrus engine. Question is - why all plugins have to be recompiled? Why SKSE couldn't provide its plugins with pre-defined, version-independent structures containing pointers to all necessary functions and objects, proxying all calls? That's how you make an ABI. Load a plugin, call its initialization routine and pass the structure. There you go - no need to recompile the plugin every time your main code is being recompiled. Look at the plugins system for Apache HTTP server or PHP plugins for example. 

 

But then the problem again is that SKSE is not an open-source project. No one but its owners can work on it. I remember before SKSE64 was officially announced as being under development, there was someone working on unofficial 64-bit port. And  the next thing  happened was SKSE team writing to that person and asking to stop. The project has been removed from Github as a result. This again - just as many other licensing problems with plugins considered to be a foundation of modding ecosystem - is not a problem created by Bethesda either. This is my point - the vast majority of the problems people are talking about weren't created by Bethesda but rather the problems of modding community itself.

[p80nchicken]

4 hours ago, phillout said:

Agreed. They (technically) could put an effort into providing PC users with some binary plugins SDK, so their engine, not SKSE, would load those plugins and with a way to extend their scripting functionality. This could be done, and it would most probably be done if Skyrim would be a PC-exclusive game. 

 

Thing is - Skyrim is not a PC-exclusive title. And it's not based on Unity either. Something like this would require putting a lot of effort into functionality used by a relatively small part of an already small (about 14%) minority of PC users. I don't know of any company that would do something like that. Heck, even DOOM title isn't moddable anymore, unlike the good old days when all id Software games were extremely moddable, since the days of Quake 1 that used to be distributed with C plugins SDK, level editor and stuff.

ID software 1 and 2 where also publicly distributed under the GPL and modders were hired into ID Software. I don't think we'll see something like that ever again, and it is quite unfortunate. All the source ports of doom were made because of that mostly, instead of having to reverse engineer the whole engine like the OpenMW team.

It's unfortunate, really, that companies stop doing this.

4 hours ago, phillout said:

The reason of companies losing interest in modding their games is that today there are almost no PC exclusive titles. Even Beth games started as a modding platform in the days when they were running on PCs. As soon as a game starts targeting console audience first - it's the end of 3rd party modding. Bethesda now has their own mods' distribution channels - Nexus etc are competitors. Why all this comes as a surprise?

The Nexus is just as corporate as Bethesda (no matter what they say), and it is quite unfortunate to see that.

 

Anyways, the thing is there is a lot more money in consoles, and you're most likely right in that console manufacturers aren't very prone to running scripts on their console, especially coming in the form of mods (reminder Sony didn't want mods because of that in the first place). Papyrus could have been made extensible but I think Bethesda didn't care for it, which is why I called it lazy more than anything else.

4 hours ago, phillout said:

 

Now... if there would be a game kind of similar to TES series - providing a similar open-world experience, unlimited character building, moddability, etc - but without all that mess, I would definitely jump its bandwagon in a blink of an eye. Is there one?

Not yet.

4 hours ago, phillout said:

If not - there is no choice (and this is the real problem) and there is no point in complaining.  Bethesda won't stop CC updates no matter how much people complain and how many petitions they write.  And the question is then - what can we do about it? 

Let's go full DDProductions83 lol.

4 hours ago, phillout said:

Speaking of SKSE - yes, it has to plug itself into the Papyrus engine. Question is - why all plugins have to be recompiled? Why SKSE couldn't provide its plugins with pre-defined, version-independent structures containing pointers to all necessary functions and objects, proxying all calls? That's how you make an ABI.

I'm not sure as to how this would be made with something that's essentially plugging code into a binary by using binary redirection. Maybe it's possible but SKSE works in the same way a video game crack works, every updates break it. If there's another way it probably should be tried.

4 hours ago, phillout said:

But then the problem again is that SKSE is not an open-source project. No one but its owners can work on it. I remember before SKSE64 was officially announced as being under development, there was someone working on unofficial 64-bit port. And  the next thing  happened was SKSE team writing to that person and asking to stop. The project has been removed from Github as a result. This again - just as many other licensing problems with plugins considered to be a foundation of modding ecosystem - is not a problem created by Bethesda either. This is my point - the vast majority of the problems people are talking about weren't created by Bethesda but rather the problems of modding community itself.

I didn't know this, and if that is true then it is quite frankly very disappointing. Why even distribute the source code then?

The modding community has always been very focused on a pervasive permission culture. In Oblivion days it was "Ask and you'll be told yes". I think the real problems started with Skyrim with the paid modding fiasco, there you saw mod authors become outright hostile to much of the rest of the community. I don't think someone like Wrye would be present in the Skyrim modding scene as it is simply not the same community as Oblivion's or before. There's a definite culture shift happening in which modders are looking less for a hobby and more for a job; Falskaar, The Forgotten City, and many other GREAT mods are a testament to this. It's also very obvious that the BGS of today is less concerned with making "good games" and more concerned with making a quick buck, Skyrim SE was an obvious cash grab and Fallout 76 is a lazy game using much of the same assets as Fallout 4, question to limit the quantity of work even necessary to make.

If Fallout 76's "Beta" is anything to go by, the game will not work very well; It's the buggiest Bethesda title in a long time, and most likely than not the modding support for the game will be very limited. To me it seems like we won't see any games like Oblivion or Skyrim coming of BGS from now onwards, I might be wrong but I most certainly won't jump on any hype train.

[0wnyx]

just out of curiosity... as i bought skyrim sse half year ago and failed at modding somewhat... considering now an second try to install the basic mods + some animations/poses. would it be better to avoid sse, follow the amount of contend and get the original skyrim ? (since i already paid for sse i will pirate the orginal this time).

[Guest]

1 minute ago, 0wnyx said:

just out of curiosity... as i bought skyrim sse half year ago and failed at modding somewhat... considering now an second try to install the basic mods + some animations/poses. would it be better to avoid sse, follow the amount of contend and get the original skyrim ? (since i already paid for sse i will pirate the orginal this time).

Do not pirate the game. That is bad.

SSE has a good modding capability. About 75% of Oldrim.

It is just technique and tries to gat your game modded properly. And you can find a lot of help here to have your game modded.

[pburnt]

Why don't some mod authors check their logs for errors? Irritates me. Nowhere else to vent. Sorry.

[bigmouthpricc]

On 10/14/2018 at 1:35 PM, Lodakai said:

OMG I was pulling my hair out in my game because I thought I was going insane.   But you just verified what was bugging me so intensely... this is a thing.

I must have tried 5 different ENB's trying to figure out what the heck the problem was.

 

It is VERY Noticeable with wetfunction redux.

It's finally fixed by aers, again Bethesda didn't do shit about their game, 2 years without fix, just Creation Shit updates.

If you use ENB v370, don't use that mod.

[Pork Type]

On 1/13/2019 at 3:25 AM, bigmouthpricc said:

aers

I'm quickly discovering that this person is a bit of a wizard.

 

My only major beefs that remain with SSE is the wonky DOF application, and the "vaseline smear" effect applied to candlelight sources. And nighttime/gloomy desaturation.

 

Which leads me to... the ENB world. Never really messed with them before, as my CPU was a relative potato up until a few weeks ago. Now I have a brand-spanking new 6 core i5, but my display hardware is still an RX 480 8 GB. Not sure if an ENB will spank my framerate too hard? I'm getting mostly 45-60 FPS on a 60 Hz 1440p unit, Vsync enabled (I hate tearing) as well as framerate limiting (to 60, natch.)

 

So I guess I have a question. Well, two. With the plethora of available ENBs, is there one that behaves mostly like vanilla, but with perhaps a bit more saturation during low light level conditions, and without inky darkness at night? And are ENBs mostly CPU intensive, or GPU? I'm guessing it probably depends.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

 

 

[Antioch666]

Came back to try out Skyrim SE again after half a year give or take ? damn! I can now install everything I want and it is smooth sailing - haven't had a single crash yet! Awesome job by the modders. Now for all the tweaking >_<

[Vedren01]

On 2/26/2019 at 8:11 PM, Antioch666 said:

Came back to try out Skyrim SE again after half a year give or take ? damn! I can now install everything I want and it is smooth sailing - haven't had a single crash yet! Awesome job by the modders. Now for all the tweaking >_<

Yeah SSE has always been the superior version (best free game I ever received) we just had to wait for the modding scene to get all the conversions done and working.

[Celedhring]

So far, I have the following installed:  Sexlab Framework, DCL, DDI, DDX, DDA,  Simple Slavery, Sanguine's Debauchery,  Dragonborn in Distress,  SL Defeat,  Sexlab Aroused, Deviously Enslaved, Things in the Dark, Mia's Lair,  SLEN, Estrus Chaurus, Dwemer and Spider,    Come to think of it, there really aren't many other mods that I don't have installed in Newrim that isn't in my Oldrim game. 

 

It's hell alot more stable than Oldrim and I can go for hours, into Whiterun,  Windhelm, Markarth without crashing.   I'm pretty happy with my SSE setup and been playing it far more than Oldrim those days. 

 

The only issue is that some of the animation transfers from Oldrim to Newrim don't seem to work even though they're packaged with animation packs where other animations worked. I'm guessing that they weren't properly converted, but I don't know.   And I know that some of the same packs in Newrim do not have all the same animations as their Oldrim counterparts.  It's not a big deal for me as I'm borderline on the too many animations limit in FNIS anyway. 

 

The only want I have now is for Apropos converted to SSE.  It only partly works in SSE as it is and I can't adjust the "Go Back Aggressor Factor" and "Max Go Backs per anim"   That's the only part of Apropos that doesn't work in SSE for me. 

[csacskamacska]

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 PM, Vedren01 said:

Yeah SSE has always been the superior version

Maybe, maybe not. My player freezes after updating. it's awful...  start from the beginning? Half the programs are unavailable.  fnis... yeah, I did... 

 

//Talán igen, talán nem. A játékosom fagy a frissítés után. borzasztó... kezdjem elölről? fnis... ja, ment... de minek.

 

[Zor2k13]

Getting ready to install SE and "try" to convert all the things I want to use in it. I am still debating on using MO2 or not since it would keep my game directory clean of junk and allow me to play multiple mod setups the same way I would load different save points in the game. I could play normie save and normie mods only or I could play a degenerate save from the set of degenerates mods I use from here easily just select a profile I think and it works. The trouble is that some degenerate things still don't work in SE and I have so few normie feelz left for this game. I'm gonna rip some stuff out of enderal like some of the music and clothes and stuff bundle them up into a mod and run that for myself. I fucking hate the latter half of the storyline of enderal dam those germans! lol the feelz are good from it though from the beginning anyway. Skyrim has no great beginner feelz anymore even with LAL mods it is still skyrim where every square game unit is well known and every npc dialogue is seared into our brains. Every time I have to endure npc dialogue in a bethesda game now I just picture two fallout 4 settler npcs standing in front of a microphone badly voicing some lines they are reading along with that horrible baaaaaston accent of theirs and bored looks on their faces.

 

All bethesda has to show us this year is another doom and it looks more like a cell phone game in the way it plays thanks to them showing it off with some handheld crap streaming it at their E3 show. I'm afraid all we will get from them one day is a streamed game and absolutely no modding ability at all. If other companies follow that path all we will get is streamed games and all we will have left is old ancient toaster games like skyrim and fallout 4. All fallout 4 has left in it really is F4NV project and that capital wasteland mod. I think miami is going to kind of suck but it might be something that can be done at any time while playing through fallout 4 instead of being a total conversion mod.

 

Unless someone makes another enderal type of game maybe this time with SE instead of LE or with FO4 who knows. I'm hoping that enderal music that has infected my brain will go over well in SE once I get it going. I really can't stand playing normie skyrim anymore except maybe there is just a small amount of feelz left to squeeze out of dawnguard and solstheim. I have tried many of those major addons for LE over the years and they all kind of suck the same way.

 

 

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

 

I have never been able toget the game to run.I am not alone in that.There are other players who can't get it to run either.I was criticized on another thread for saying this by a couple of people but it is what ,it is.

So for me I judge it inferior to oldrim.Others can feel differently if they want to.

I have pretty much given up on getting it to work and will focus on Enderal and Fallout 3 and 4.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

 

I have never been able toget the game to run.I am not alone in that.There are other players who can't get it to run either.I was criticized on another thread for saying this by a couple of people but it is what ,it is.

So for me I judge it inferior to oldrim.Others can feel differently if they want to.

I have pretty much given up on getting it to work and will focus on Enderal and Fallout 3 and 4.

If you can't even get the game to run I'd say the issue is in your end. Not that I'm a SE fanatic, but nearly 20k people have been playing Skyrim SE recently, just by Steam numbers. So even if you and 5-10 others have issues, I would not blame the game, but the user.

[Funzel22]

On 5/3/2019 at 6:44 PM, Vedren01 said:

Yeah SSE has always been the superior version (best free game I ever received) we just had to wait for the modding scene to get all the conversions done and working.

 

I have here A FEW conversations but I can't release them: I have to ask the authors first, but then:

 

1.) Mod authors don't answer anymore. They don't come online anymore ... They don't care anymore ....

 

2.) Mod authors want to "update & convert" their mods themselfs (and never do   ).

 

I made (here at LoversLap) a thread to share all my SE conversions, but then I realize that I can't do this without (really) ask all the authors. So I asked the moderation here to delete my thread. The LoversLab-moderation was very kind, thanks again. ?

 

It's not sutch a problem to convert the mods, it's a HUGE drama to get the permission from the (old) mod authors! ?

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

On 7/30/2019 at 9:19 PM, Sternum said:

If you can't even get the game to run I'd say the issue is in your end. Not that I'm a SE fanatic, but nearly 20k people have been playing Skyrim SE recently, just by Steam numbers. So even if you and 5-10 others have issues, I would not blame the game, but the user.

well that's not quite true.There are youtube videos where there's at least a dozen different reasons why the game won't launch and for the vast majority it isn't the player's fault. One of them for example is a video card setting.That's hardly the player's fault.

and it's a lot more than 5-10 others.It's probably in the hundreds at least.

If  some want to say it's something I and the others are doing wrong they can believe that if they want to. I feel otherwise.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

well that's not quite true.There are youtube videos where there's at least a dozen different reasons why the game won't launch and for the vast majority it isn't the player's fault. One of them for example is a video card setting.That's hardly the player's fault.

and it's a lot more than 5-10 others.It's probably in the hundreds at least.

If  some want to say it's something I and the others are doing wrong they can believe that if they want to. I feel otherwise.

You're right, the game doesn't work.

 

btw: skyrim le has the same particularities about gpu settings, OS UACs, visual c++ distrib and similar softwares. The game is in no way perfect, but again, if you can't even get it to start, the issue is not the game.

[ANGRYWOLVERINE]

46 minutes ago, Sternum said:

You're right, the game doesn't work.

 

btw: skyrim le has the same particularities about gpu settings, OS UACs, visual c++ distrib and similar softwares. The game is in no way perfect, but again, if you can't even get it to start, the issue is not the game.

You obviously haven't bothered to look at the youtube videos or the complaints in the pc forums. Why are you even here ? This is a thread to complain abou the game not blindly defend it.. I can see I can't discuss it with you so good day.

[Guest]

On 8/2/2019 at 9:25 PM, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

You obviously haven't bothered to look at the youtube videos or the complaints in the pc forums.

Why would I do that? I've never had that issue.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 9:25 PM, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

Why are you even here ? This is a thread to complain abou the game not blindly defend it.

The purpose of the this topic is to criticize SSE in regards to it's modding capabilities. If you came here to say "doesn't work, bad game" good for you. I didn't came here defending the game. All I'm saying is that if you can't even launch a game as it is (vanilla state, any "major game"), the issue must be in the user's end (maybe in a hardware incompatibilitie, but I doubt it, as it should've been properly documented after years from the release and thousands of players with access to the game).

[Funzel22]

On 8/3/2019 at 3:25 AM, ANGRYWOLVERINE said:

You obviously haven't bothered to look at the youtube videos or the complaints in the pc forums. Why are you even here ? This is a thread to complain abou the game not blindly defend it.. I can see I can't discuss it with you so good day.

 

? I'M here to defend Skyrim SE. ?

[nemocdt]

SE is buy far superior to LE, we are only beginning to grasp it's capabilities. 

[Guest]

The problem is that SE *IS* being actively maintained, by which i mean updates are released. If beth would just stop updating the game, and constantly breaking hundreds of mods, maybe it could actually be a stable modding platform. But as it is: LE might be technically inferior, but practically it's actually possible to run a lot of mods, and eventually get 'em stable. With SE instead, you're never done: Every time you think you got your setup perfectly stabilized, beth releases an update, the SKSE-team and other devs suck it up, instead of boycotting this bullshit, and you the player can go through the debugging-process of updating dozens of mods and stabilizing them, all over again. Essentially on SE, player's aren't players, but volunteering army of QA-testers.

[chevalierx]

only negative about SE

- shadows and ENB , most weather make weather more rain .

-the same bugs as LE nad same engine limitaion ( not memory)

 

[nemocdt]

On 8/24/2019 at 4:55 PM, lynak said:

Essentially on SE, player's aren't players, but volunteering army of QA-testers.

yes, this ^^ is how it all works.

basically your everyday play build should be outside the x64 folder anyway, this negates uac permissions being reset on forced windows 10 updates (that one infuriated me until i moved it) and SE updates stalling our research and playtime. auto steam updates can be stopped. but microsoft don't give a fuck how many ways you try to stop updates and i have to reset admin rights for all utils. best to keep a updated vanilla copy in steam directory i have about 10-12 games i need steam auto updates on. just move it out and play on.

[nemocdt]

On 8/26/2019 at 8:50 PM, chevalierx said:

only negative about SE

- shadows and ENB , most weather make weather more rain .

 

Open the console and type in set GlobalSeasonClearMultiplier to #, where # is a number greater or equal 0. Default is 1, and the probability of clear weather is multiplied by it. For example, if you set it to 2, the clear weather will be twice as likely as the default probability for it during a certain month (15% → 30%, 10% → 20% etc.). You can set it to 0 if you never want clear weather, or 0.5, or whatever you like (just not less than 0).

 

^^not my work but you may find helpful.