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SSE Criticism Thread Reloaded


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On 7/30/2018 at 8:20 AM, jyotai said:

It's kind of a frustration for me that this situation still exists even years after SSE came out.

 

Not because of various preferences. I have no statement there as I don't even own Oldrim so I can't make a judgement call.

 

Rather because I don't Oldrim, and the reason I don't own it. I just bought skyrim around the end of June, 2018. At the time I had no idea it had various versions, I'd heard of the game for years but I've managed to avoid single player games since the end of the 1990s / early 00s. Sims 2 was my last single player game - though I only played abut 15 minutes into install.

 

So when I finally decided I wanted to try out this thing I'd heard about for years... I went to bethesda's website and it told me I had to get Steam... I got that, and I went looking, and only SSE was up for sale. I looked into why this was called 'special edition' and where 'regular might be just in case it was cheaper and had or lacked some DLC or well... what was up... and found out I couldn't find it for sale anywhere where I was sure my install key would actually work...

 

So... yes Skyrim is old and people like me are probably pretty rare now... being a 'brand spanking noob'...

- But the community division frustrates me because anytime I see something that is Oldrim only... I'm cut off from it. I can't even make the choice to go try it out. If it's a simple mod I can try converting it on my own. That sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I've actually learned a lot more than a player only one month into a new game should know as a result of trying to get things working 'on my own' that weren't there for me in the game I was able to buy. Even my failures in porting have taught me a lot of tricks (and I hope to be uploading some mods of my own soon as a result - but don't get mad when they're SSE only, I don't have the ability to back-port them).

 

 

I kind of wish everyone had just 'moved on to SSE' when it came out - but I get that if for no other reason mods not being cross-compatible "out of the box" stalled that process enough that other reasons also developed for people. But it means I'm 'partly out of the loop' until the day we "mostly" move on to TES6.

 

 

So... Why I play SSE and ignore Oldrim? Because that's the only choice Steam gave me when I finally showed up in ya'lls yard.

 

You can still buy Oldrim from steam. And its pretty cheap now. You just have to dig a bit.

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On 8/27/2018 at 2:12 PM, Slashz said:

Well apparently my thread got deleted without warning, i would like some moderator to explain why in private message please
 

Your file was not authorized.

Don't do it again.

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I've just reinstalled Skyrim SE today and i noticed that Bethesda is also flagging mods the same way like they do in Fallout 4, most exactly the Niero ones.

 

The thing is. i prepare my game, order carefully all the plugins, play the game, exit the game, i go to the divine and glorious wrye bash and he tells me that my save files are bad, i look in to them and my load order its all messed up.

 

So... Is there any way to bypass this situation? I have two mods (coco bikinis and rt bikinis, or something like that) that go to the bottom of the LO every time i start a game, the mods are by default esl but i am playing the great and majestic overhaul Requiem and the reqtificator dont work with esl, so i converted to esps.

Why Bethesda, why are you messing the game? I bought and played all your games since morrowind, so im a little veteran, this is a very very bad thing.

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  • 2 weeks later...

So it's almost 2 years since I purchased SSE..

 

I finally decided to spend almost a week of committing myself to actually set up SSE with my minimal mods that I use (since most are now working)..

All I can say it's not worth the effort for the hardware and mods I use.

 

Load times through doors have improved and I'm all for better stability, but honestly the rest of the spouting about visual improvement I'm still not convinced it's worth it.

 

The engine has core bugs and some bad implementations of programming code.

So your left with using SKSE64 plugins to patch bugs in memory on the fly.

 

Now add in that beth is trying to make a buck on CCC so anything they update doesn't actually fix the base engine bugs at all.

Just another patch for some trivial piece of CCC crapware.

 

In the meantime every user who has a stable base game using mods and skse64 plugins is now thrown in to turmoil.

For what exactly? to play the game the way they already could.

 

Unless your intending on 4K+ textures on everything and super poly model at some over the top resolution SSE is a con and nothing more.

Even running 4K+ textures on everything the SSE engine still chokes regardless of hardware thrown at it.

So much for 64 bit optimization..

Basically SSE is nothing but a marketing ploy for a game that already offered all that's available.

 

Oldrim without the Beth update patch loop garbage is an absolute pleasure for me.

Stable, predictable and mods just work out of the box at this point in time.

 

I'll give it another 3 years and SSE may finally be worth moving on to when all the ass ache of it becomes systematic to set up.

Hopefully beth will have failed or moved on to another title with it's ccc crapware updates.

 

phhhht

 

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For me the removal of microstutters that used to plague my LE setup and driven me mad sometimes, seriously improved Papyrus performance and smooth 60 FPS everywhere, with a heavily modded game including Open Cities, Dawn of Skyrim, retextures, several mods from LL is a good enough set of arguments.  I've moved to SE and  I'm not looking back.  I even managed to simulate Requiem quite well with Enairim, Skyrim Revamped, CACO, OMEGA and True Unleveled Skyrim (an awesome dynamic zEdit patcher that de-levels the entire Skyrim world, including 3rd party mods). In some areas I even find it more enjoyable than Requiem, coming to think of it. Took some time to set everything up, but I'm quite pleased with the results.

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On 10/11/2018 at 3:40 AM, bigmouthpricc said:

OMG I was pulling my hair out in my game because I thought I was going insane.   But you just verified what was bugging me so intensely... this is a thing.

I must have tried 5 different ENB's trying to figure out what the heck the problem was.

 

It is VERY Noticeable with wetfunction redux.

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the game as a whole has seemed more stable, though the HD textures on the player (default ones) looked super blurry on high res for me. Also had to turn off godrays for fps reasons.

Biggest issue I think we can agree is Bethesda updating the launcher for the paid mods and breaking skse more than half the time. 

 

And it's not even really... super original mods? The last one as I post this is just a rip-off of campfire- which confounded me because why would I pay ~$3.00 USD for this when I can get Campfire for free, been out for years, more features, compatible with my other mods, and probably better support?

 

The only thing I can guess is maybe you can get it on consoles that don't support player-made mods?

 

If they're going to just copy popular mods off of Nexus, they could at least try and hire the modder. 

Example: If I recall, the author of Mo'Creatures for Minecraft provided the new animal meshes for the official updates. 

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On 10/21/2018 at 2:48 AM, cero90 said:

the game as a whole has seemed more stable, though the HD textures on the player (default ones) looked super blurry on high res for me. Also had to turn off godrays for fps reasons.

Biggest issue I think we can agree is Bethesda updating the launcher for the paid mods and breaking skse more than half the time. 

 

And it's not even really... super original mods? The last one as I post this is just a rip-off of campfire- which confounded me because why would I pay ~$3.00 USD for this when I can get Campfire for free, been out for years, more features, compatible with my other mods, and probably better support?

 

The only thing I can guess is maybe you can get it on consoles that don't support player-made mods?

 

If they're going to just copy popular mods off of Nexus, they could at least try and hire the modder. 

 

If I'm not mistaken, Chesko, the author of Campfire and Frostfall (along with many other mods) is the one behind the Survival Mode for SSE. 

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2 hours ago, phillout said:

 

If I'm not mistaken, Chesko, the author of Campfire and Frostfall (along with many other mods) is the one behind the Survival Mode for SSE. 

The Creation Club does indeed hire many of the most popular modders such as Chesko, Elianora and TrainWiz(?) to create new integrated versions of those old mods.

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On 10/26/2018 at 2:49 PM, FauxFurry said:

The Creation Club does indeed hire many of the most popular modders such as Chesko, Elianora and TrainWiz(?) to create new integrated versions of those old mods.

Oh, I wasn't aware of that! That's good, really the only way I will approve of those paid mods. Good to know!

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I'm not so sure that is a good thing.   Some of those integrated mods seem to have fewer interesting features than the free counterparts they had worked on before.   Bethesda is probably a lot more restrictive on what should be included and what things should not.   

 

Of course it is a good thing that skilled modders have become recognized for their excellent work.   At the same time it has turned a hobby into a job... and face it... not many people put as much effort into their jobs as they do for their passions.

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On 10/31/2018 at 4:09 AM, Lodakai said:

I'm not so sure that is a good thing.   Some of those integrated mods seem to have fewer interesting features than the free counterparts they had worked on before.   Bethesda is probably a lot more restrictive on what should be included and what things should not.   

 

So why having a choice is a bad thing? You don't have to buy them, just use those free mods, have fun. The fact that those mods are available at CC doesn't force you to use them. The main audience of CC is not PC users, who are actually a tiny minority of Skyrim players - IIRC ~84% of people play Skyrim on consoles. They are the primary CC audience, and until recently they had no access to anything similar to Campfire/Frostfall/iNeed.  Yes, compared to them, Survival Mode is simplified (or rather streamlined), but that's the point, I guess. 

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32 minutes ago, phillout said:

So why having a choice is a bad thing?

 

As a PC user, having this choice is awful. It means SKSE gets broken frequently, and ENB is missing features (weather, accurate Time of Day, etc.) entirely due to how CC has been implemented. The whole thing is a clusterfuck. I can do without that choice tbh as simply ignoring CC doesn't stop them breaking things multiple times per year.

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2 hours ago, phillout said:

So why having a choice is a bad thing? You don't have to buy them, just use those free mods, have fun. The fact that those mods are available at CC doesn't force you to use them. The main audience of CC is not PC users, who are actually a tiny minority of Skyrim players - IIRC ~84% of people play Skyrim on consoles. They are the primary CC audience, and until recently they had no access to anything similar to Campfire/Frostfall/iNeed.  Yes, compared to them, Survival Mode is simplified (or rather streamlined), but that's the point, I guess. 

I also disagree about this being a real choice.  It's about opportunity cost.  For example... let's say you have a free modder who provided great content for years... quality stuff that has become a staple in everyones game.   Now those modders might be tempted to move over under bethesda's thumb and control for a salary.   It is true that it would keep their interest longer than modding for free would... however, it is also much less likely that they would take up one of their old free projects again.   

 

In the long run you would lose the opportunity for that modder to have taken up the mantle of working on a mod (developed with free reign) that you had long used (such as Campfire, or frostfall...) and instead are herded toward a mod that has been gutted and filtered by bethesda's own ambitions and needs... such as survival mode.   Would that be a good thing?   Maybe for some.  In my opinion it is not a good thing for the end user, although it could be a boon to a modder who has burnt out.    

 

There are always pro's and con's to every situation.  My opinion is that the negatives outweigh the benefits in this situation.  But, we just have to live with it because that's how it is.

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1 hour ago, R246 said:

 

As a PC user, having this choice is awful. It means SKSE gets broken frequently, and ENB is missing features (weather, accurate Time of Day, etc.) entirely due to how CC has been implemented. The whole thing is a clusterfuck. I can do without that choice tbh as simply ignoring CC doesn't stop them breaking things multiple times per year.

It seems crazy to me that every time they make a change to CC it breaks the whole SKSE thing. Is it not lazy adapting the game for mods? Surely they should be adapting the mods for the game. Giving us PC users an option to disable CC entirely would be nice too!

 

Of course thinking like this is laughable because after all Bethesda is a huge business run by breadheads and the only thing that matters is the coin.

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9 hours ago, R246 said:

 

As a PC user, having this choice is awful. It means SKSE gets broken frequently, and ENB is missing features (weather, accurate Time of Day, etc.) entirely due to how CC has been implemented. The whole thing is a clusterfuck. I can do without that choice tbh as simply ignoring CC doesn't stop them breaking things multiple times per year.

SKSE plugins being broken after every update isn't a problem created by Bethesda updates. Actually the only thing that actually has to be updated after Bethesda push a new version is SKSE itself. The fact that all SKSE plugins have to be recompiled as well is not their fault - it's the design problem of SKSE itself. There are many software products that utilize some sort of plugin system, and virtually none of them require all plugins to be recompiled on every minor update.

 

Speaking of "disabling CC" or "adapting the mods for the game" - Bethesda have to include all functionality into a single executable file since this is how it works on PS4. They couldn't afford having a separate code structure for every platform just to please 5% of their PC/SKSE users.  So yes, suck it up - PC users are a tiny minority, and now when Bethesda has its own mods distribution system and authors eager to enter it and make money, PC users should be glad that Bethesda still gives them a chance of modding the game on their own. I've seen it coming a three years ago already.  So modders should either  adapt to the situation where all Beth games in the future will be updated frequently or prepare to be fucked over every few weeks. 

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9 hours ago, Lodakai said:

I also disagree about this being a real choice.  It's about opportunity cost.  For example... let's say you have a free modder who provided great content for years... quality stuff that has become a staple in everyones game.   Now those modders might be tempted to move over under bethesda's thumb and control for a salary.   It is true that it would keep their interest longer than modding for free would... however, it is also much less likely that they would take up one of their old free projects again.   

 

In the long run you would lose the opportunity for that modder to have taken up the mantle of working on a mod (developed with free reign) that you had long used (such as Campfire, or frostfall...) and instead are herded toward a mod that has been gutted and filtered by bethesda's own ambitions and needs... such as survival mode.   Would that be a good thing?   Maybe for some.  In my opinion it is not a good thing for the end user, although it could be a boon to a modder who has burnt out.    

 

There are always pro's and con's to every situation.  My opinion is that the negatives outweigh the benefits in this situation.  But, we just have to live with it because that's how it is.

 

I can also think of at least one example (Niero's more risqué FO4 outfits) where very popular mods are now actually much harder to get because of the Creation Club, since he removed them in order to fall in line with Bethesda's Creation Club creator contract (as per TheKite). 

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18 minutes ago, SpyVsPie said:

 

I can also think of at least one example (Niero's more risqué FO4 outfits) where very popular mods are now actually much harder to get because of the Creation Club, since he removed them in order to fall in line with Bethesda's Creation Club creator contract (as per TheKite). 

So you are unhappy with a choice a mod author made - as in making money from mods as opposed to making free mods - and you blame Bethesda? Seriously?

 

I just wanted to remind everyone how the community treated Chesko when he tried to join Beth's first attempt on paid mods - when they intended to introduce them on Steam. W/o breaking any compatibility, BTW. People get enraged. They called him names and some actually threatened them - with a murder. Is anyone surprised some authors say F.U. to a bunch of princes and princesses with a huge sense of entitlement to THEIR free mods?

 

Yet no one seems to mind that some authors take their mods to Patreon and release regular updates only to their patrons, while leaving everyone else with rare updates even when new updates fix critical issues. Go figure...

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1 hour ago, phillout said:

Speaking of "disabling CC" or "adapting the mods for the game" - Bethesda have to include all functionality into a single executable file since this is how it works on PS4. They couldn't afford having a separate code structure for every platform just to please 5% of their PC/SKSE users.  So yes, suck it up

Oh right. SkyrimSE PC users are forced to download all CC content whether they own it or not, just like console users. Strange, I'm not seeing dozens of CC mods in my Data folder. I wonder why that is. Hm, I don't even see the CC mods I got free from Beth there either. I wonder why. It's almost as if the PC version is... gasp, different..?

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8 hours ago, R246 said:

Oh right. SkyrimSE PC users are forced to download all CC content whether they own it or not, just like console users. Strange, I'm not seeing dozens of CC mods in my Data folder. I wonder why that is. Hm, I don't even see the CC mods I got free from Beth there either. I wonder why. It's almost as if the PC version is... gasp, different..?

The executable code is still being updated  

 

Look here, genius. You've got a codebase working on several platforms, including a couple of consoles. Now you need to make a new function available to scripts. On all platforms. What do you do? If you've got any idea other than "adding implementation to the executable file" - once again, it should work on all platforms, so DLLs are out of the question - just let us know. You are the one calling Beth "lazy", so apparently you know better.

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On 11/4/2018 at 9:10 PM, phillout said:

SKSE plugins being broken after every update isn't a problem created by Bethesda updates. Actually the only thing that actually has to be updated after Bethesda push a new version is SKSE itself. The fact that all SKSE plugins have to be recompiled as well is not their fault - it's the design problem of SKSE itself. There are many software products that utilize some sort of plugin system, and virtually none of them require all plugins to be recompiled on every minor update.

 

We obviously should be glad that we pay for a product for which we have a specific use and Bethesda just keeps shitting on us.

Thanks you Bethesda! Very cool. ?

 

The SKSE couldn't be made in another way, it's essentially aftermarket change to a rather limited engine; There's no plugin system in Skyrim. While there are definitively some other plugin loaders the only one that adds new papyrus function IIRC is SKSE. 

On 11/5/2018 at 6:08 AM, phillout said:

The executable code is still being updated  

 

Look here, genius. You've got a codebase working on several platforms, including a couple of consoles. Now you need to make a new function available to scripts. On all platforms. What do you do? If you've got any idea other than "adding implementation to the executable file" - once again, it should work on all platforms, so DLLs are out of the question - just let us know. You are the one calling Beth "lazy", so apparently you know better.

Bethesda definitively could have made a plugin system for Papyrus. A reminder that they have the source code of the game; We don't. Skyrim Special Edition itself was a lazy port of skyrim which essentially included new shaders, a piss godray system and upscaled textures that look virtually the same just blurrier. Why couldn't they remake any of the textures or models? Because Skyrim Special Edition isn't a "Special Edition" or a "Remaster", it's just a port with a glorified title.

A way Bethesda could have implemented a plugin system for papyrus that wouldn't have required something like SKSE is if they had made adding new functions possible by making the scripting system open source (or just accessible source) and had designed it to be extensible. There are some game engines that support this, most notably Unity. Obviously that takes work and work requires money and thought, and you know fam, rather just port the game and add microtransactions. Suck it up nerd, we're Bethesda. 

 

The sole reason why the scripting system is so limited is because Bethesda cares very little about modders and a lot about more about money, so rather than spend time and money in making an extensible scripting engine or even making one that isn't as half-assed as Papyrus, they can spend the same time and money making a lazy "Remaster" that also includes microtransaction, a "Feature", remind you, that we didn't have in Oldrim. The only good point about SSE is it runs smoother on PC.

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