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fenrir19

fallout 4 CKis not out yet ?

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The release of the CK depends on laziness I'd say. Doubt it has any connection to the DLCs. Nothing even close to Dawnguard/Dragonborn's size ever came out for Skyrim. I guess there was Falskaar but that just reused content from the base game.

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I don't expect its release till AT LEAST after the date listed for the last of the 3 announced DLC's to be honest (otherwise they would have put a release date on it, rather than giving the same kind of political non-answer that they originally gave us with "early 2016").

 

So don't hold your breath... If DLC is coming out before the motherf*cking GECK (no, I REFUSE to call it the "Creation Kit"...), then their priorities are made perfectly clear: modding is not important to them, only $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

 

Also, all the DLC content announced is stuff modders could have easily made with the damn tool they have yet to release - DLC is supposed to be stuff we CAN'T do FFS (i.e. like Crossbows or new Perk Trees for Vampire Lords and Werewolves in Skyrim's case...).

 

The only way I would be convinced that Beth's main concern now is money and not modding (not to say that I'm not already fully convinced of that, considering the direction I've been seeing a good portion of the market going these days, with half finished games and huge DLCs to make up for "missing content") is if they put a price on the CK or GECK, or whatever the fuck you want to call it, instead of making it freeware like all of the previous modding tools they've released for their games.

 

Also, fuck the "entitlement" point of view. As a paying customer I kind of have the right to bitch about the quality of the product I'm being sold when compared to past experiences.

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when it's out?

I think the CK delay is multi-part.
 
Modding for consoles:
  • How is Bethesda going to accompolish this with a 12 yr old 32 bit Gamebyro engine modified to function on a 64bit OS?  How are they going to cross platform from a Windows 7 64bit mod to a Windows10 compatible XBox1 or PS4 mod?  IF everyone used Windows10 64bit and DirectX12 crossing platforms to consoles would be easier.  That’s not the case.  Todd Howard promised mods for consoles.  How he intends to make good on that promise is yet to be seen.
  • Another consideration is security for console users.  Protecting Bethesda.net against something as basic as a DoS attack could get expensive; so just imagine the vetting process for a mod made on a PC that might end up in someone’s Xbox1.  That’s a potential disaster and a financial burden.
  • And somewhere along the way Bethesda is going to need permission from Microsoft and SONY to access closed system consoles if they want mods for XBox1 and PS4.  That will require lawyers, contracts, warranties, licensing and a lot of time and money.
  • Something else is how are console users going to deal with mod conflicts, load orders, dirty edits and everything else PC users are used to?  We have the 3rd party software to make things easier.  Mods for consoles won’t have those luxuries unless Bethesda makes the software themselves.  Despite the FO4 EULA Bethesda can’t claim 3rd party software as their own, as much as they might want to.
The new DLCs:
  • In my opinion they might be delaying the CK to coincide with the functions of the first set of dlcs.  It would be one less patch for them to fuck up people’s games with but I don’t think that’s their concern.  I think they are stalling for maximum effect and a sales boost.
Bethesda.net:
  • From what I can see Bethesda.net is not set up for mass site traffic, users buying and downloading dlcs, or much of anything else other than people casually browsing there.  If Zenimax/Bethesda intends to use Bethesda.net as a distribution platform it is not ready.  How they intend to address getting non-Steam dlcs into a Steam game directory is another matter entirely.
Monetized Modding:
  • The dirty secret no one is talking about.  We all know it is coming, we just don’t know what form it will take.  How will Bethesda handle modder storefronts?  What will be the payout; real cash or something like BethesdaBucks that has no real value?  How are they going to handle the vetting process and quality control?  How are they going to deal with instance of creation rights and content they can’t legally claim?  Reading in the FO4 EULA the framework for their protection is there so I know they intend to revive monetized modding eventually.  Bethesda.net is the logical choice for that venue.
Other Considerations:
  • Bethesda makes buggy games and their editors aren’t any better.  The FO4 CK might be an unworkable mess at this point and full of licenced software Bethesda doesn’t have the right to distribute.  Cleaning all of that up or at least making it presentable will take time.
 
But I think the big hold up is console modding and making it viable.
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  • The dirty secret no one is talking about.  We all know it is coming, we just don’t know what form it will take.  How will Bethesda handle modder storefronts?  What will be the payout; real cash or something like BethesdaBucks that has no real value?  How are they going to handle the vetting process and quality control?  How are they going to deal with instance of creation rights and content they can’t legally claim?  Reading in the FO4 EULA the framework for their protection is there so I know they intend to revive monetized modding eventually.  Bethesda.net is the logical choice for that venue.

 

I don't believe this. I think that paid mods for Bethesda Game Studios games in the PC space is completely off the table. Notice this excerpt from a recent news post.

 

We’re also hard at work on the Creation Kit, which will allow you to create and play mods absolutely free.

 

Have faith, bad apple. :)

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Modding for consoles:
  • And somewhere along the way Bethesda is going to need permission from Microsoft and SONY to access closed system consoles if they want mods for XBox1 and PS4.  That will require lawyers, contracts, warranties, licensing and a lot of time and money.
Bethesda.net:
  • From what I can see Bethesda.net is not set up for mass site traffic, users buying and downloading dlcs, or much of anything else other than people casually browsing there.  If Zenimax/Bethesda intends to use Bethesda.net as a distribution platform it is not ready.  How they intend to address getting non-Steam dlcs into a Steam game directory is another matter entirely.
Monetized Modding:
  • The dirty secret no one is talking about.  We all know it is coming, we just don’t know what form it will take.  How will Bethesda handle modder storefronts?  What will be the payout; real cash or something like BethesdaBucks that has no real value?  How are they going to handle the vetting process and quality control?  How are they going to deal with instance of creation rights and content they can’t legally claim?  Reading in the FO4 EULA the framework for their protection is there so I know they intend to revive monetized modding eventually.  Bethesda.net is the logical choice for that venue.

 

1. Bethesda has already talked to both Microsoft and Sony. Due to XBONE being Windows 10 compatible, mods are compatible with the XBONE by default and just needs the mod interface to put mods on there. However due to the PS4 being its own OS, Sony and Bethesda are working closely to get mods to work on the PS4. Todd Howard has already stated that mods will be on XBONE first (after the PC naturally) then on the PS4 later.

 

2. Mods put on to Bethesda.net (And steam too iirc) will be mirrored on to the XBONE and PS4 mod interface via Microsoft and Sony's own places so they won't be downloaded directly from Bethesda.net.

 

3. Due to the fiasco that smacked Steam across the face, Bethesda won't be monetizing mods. Plus, due to legal reasons, it would much more difficult for lines to be drawn for who gets how much money when it comes to console mod monetizing, and the whole idea has been thrown out the window.

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Have faith, bad apple. :)

I go by what the license says, not what proven liars say in press releases made on twitter.  :lol:

 

According to the FO4 EULA users can't charge for mods.  That proviso doesn't extend to Bethesda, only us.  Look at the way it is written.  Regardless, they might not do monetized modding, BUT the legal mechanics for them to do it are in the license and it gives them total control of anything submitted.  Odd they would bother including something like that in a license if they didn't intend to execute it at some point.

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Have faith, bad apple. :)

I go by what the license says, not what proven liars say in press releases made on twitter.  :lol:

 

According to the FO4 EULA users can't charge for mods.  That proviso doesn't extend to Bethesda, only us.  Look at the way it is written.  Regardless, they might not do monetized modding, BUT the legal mechanics for them to do it are in the license and it gives them total control of anything submitted.  Odd they would bother including something like that in a license if they didn't intend to execute it at some point.

 

 

So you're saying basically WE wouldn't be able to make money off the mods we create but Beth could?...

 

That's fucked up if that's what you're saying...

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All a mod has to have to work on a console is the meshes, scripts, textures, materials and what not folded up into a BA2 along with an esp/esm that points to that material (and a way to add it to the load order).

 

All 3 platforms are x86-64 based (AMD 8 core cpu's in both consoles and AMD and/or Intel 64bit cpu's on pc).

So Modding for the consoles shouldn't be to hard ( back that up a second, they need to release the details for the nifs and what not so bad meshes/nif don't end up in a BA2 on a console but yeah.... not to much work ).

As PC users we are used to having everything extracted....but we constantly tinker throw new shit in try it out, don't like it remove it rinse and repeat...

 

Console users will probably be stuck with preset body shapes at the most, unless someone comes up with a nifty way to build body meshes in something like bodyslide then pack it all up into a ba2... but I wonder how much of a system load cbbe or jane body will be for either of the consoles (mainly xb1 as it has the weaker gpu of the 2).

 

Load order is gonna be fun especially if a mod replaces something by accident (IE dirty edits to a script or what ever in GECK creation and it gets cooked into a BA2... oh what fun that would be to trouble shoot....Not fun at all).

 

I think Console users are going to be butt hurt on things like body swaps (unless someone packs up the textures and all of the meshes into a BA2 and the consoles have enough room).

 

Lets see.... they built the game with Intel's Havok 2014 (which was sold to Microsoft) and Nvidia toolset (why they used nvidia's closed api toolsets to build for consoles that use AMD parts that can not run said closed API boggles the mind but yeah what ever).... So yeah gotta remove bits and pieces of those parts from the GECK, then make sure it still works....I feel for the group that is working on that.

 

I wonder if they will release any info on HKX creation for FO4? Or will we have to use some bashed up hacks with the Havok 2010 HKXCMD tool?

 

Yeah they want paid modding as it is as good as micro transactions without having to do all the work.... At the same time they would need to release a complete toolset for modders which wouldn't just be the Geck but would also include detailed info on how the scripts are used (and optimized ways to create them), Nif Format does and don'ts, Texture format's (what is the limit console's can handle 2k, 4k, 8k), Havok Animations (HKX) how to generate them... a nice set of plug-ins for Maya, Blender, and/or Max would also be nice.

 

We've got some home grown tools from people figuring out parts of the nif format, and most of the texture format, and really very little on the physic's format... so if they want to support payed modding they need to release some true tools for this shit. Reverse engineering only gets the modding community so far.

 

 

 

 

So yeah

Geck's out on Tuesday or Thursday (cause that is usually when a major release is released).... but which week.... Not a clue.

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Not this entitlement shit again fucking Christ. 

 

u have problem with me dude ? 

 

 

I was responding to the poster above me but we can have problems if you wan't them. :lol:

 

 

lol ! u got me there 

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So you're saying basically WE wouldn't be able to make money off the mods we create but Beth could?...

That's fucked up if that's what you're saying...

The FO4 EULA

 

The pertinent bit is 'The Software Utilities, if any.'

Everyone zooms in on "(C.) Customized Game Materials must be distributed solely for free;" as 'proof' there won't be monetized modding.  That isn't what the license says.

What they are not reading (or understanding) is this from the first paragraph, “then in the event you access such Software Utilities, the use of the Software Utilities is subject to the following additional terms, conditions and restrictions:”

These additional terms, conditions and restrictions only apply to (you) the user and not them (the LICENSOR).  Notice in the license how (you) is styled in lower case while LICENSOR is in all caps.  That identifies you as an individual with no rights and them as a corporation with all of the rights.  I do licensing, permits and UCC filings for a living so I know what the fuck I'm reading, it's these game forum yo-yos who don't get it but pretend they do.

 

The way this joke of a license is written it illegally stacks the deck in favor of Bethesda and implies they can assert ownership of the undefined “Customized Game Materials”.  There are no definitions associated with the license, there isn't remedy, force majeure, or indemnity clauses to protect (you) the user.  (You) have no legal relief...according to them (the LICENSOR).  It also allows them to assign your rights to unnamed third parties if they so choose.  Basically they think that if you make something and adapt it to work with their stupid game THEY OWN IT.

 

The rub is back in section (A) where they can dispose of the "Customized Game Materials" however they see fit.  The way they see things they can take a mod uploaded to Bethesda.net or Steam (one of their 'licensors') and sell it for profit without due compensation to the original author/uploader; because you agreed to that at instance of creation when you used their software.  I'm not saying they would do that, but they could according to the license and there is dick-all anyone can do about it other than sue them.

 

That's what the license says about mods and modding, yet a few people here are looking at me tough and stupid because I've walked away from Bethesda's bullshit.

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For paid modding, I think the debate is a little early, they won't do any moves before they are ready to release the ck at the very least. As such, it won't be possible do anything before it shows it ugly face.

 

As for the delay, To me they're a bit afraid of issues with consoles it's a first for them, and I don't think any games saw official modding support for consoles sooo, everyone has their eyes on them.

Moreover they can't count on the comunity to fix as much as they do on pc, right? In my opinion there might have been some precious resources (read developers) diverted for bugfixing and the dlc's coming up. So regardless of money considerations, if the f4 team is spread thin, this will be slow to come and modding tools might be a bit lower in the to do list than console integration.

 

Look at the bright side (and I guess a bit over-optimistic one at that). If modding support for console is successful and actually bring more money to Beth, other publisher might consider adding basic modding capabilities to their next multi-platform game.

 

[sarcastic] Behold! For once consoles could add something to pc gaming !

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I hope it comes out when ready, compared to skyrim F4 is a lot more stable and it shows that time was taken at the end of development, last thing I want to see is them rush it out with bugs that cause mod creators more work and rewrites.

 

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If anything, it sound like they do not care much about the community, giving the TESC is what make Beth game go for expended time survival ..

To be seen, with hope the interest wont have faded by when it is released (not to forget, as close to bug free possible ? :P).

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It's gonna be april. Inbetween the first an secondat DLC. http://twinfinite.net/2016/02/169070/

 

He didn't actually say anything about the creation kit. He was asked about mods, especially on consoles, and replied "probably in April". Which could mean a CK for April, or just a way of publishing existing non-CK mods so they can be installed on consoles.

 

I'll believe we're going to get it when I'm failing to get my quests to trigger and swearing in frustration at the gaps in the Papyrus documentation.

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Guest Mogie56

 

So you're saying basically WE wouldn't be able to make money off the mods we create but Beth could?...

That's fucked up if that's what you're saying...

The FO4 EULA

 

The pertinent bit is 'The Software Utilities, if any.'

Everyone zooms in on "(C.) Customized Game Materials must be distributed solely for free;" as 'proof' there won't be monetized modding.  That isn't what the license says.

What they are not reading (or understanding) is this from the first paragraph, “then in the event you access such Software Utilities, the use of the Software Utilities is subject to the following additional terms, conditions and restrictions:”

These additional terms, conditions and restrictions only apply to (you) the user and not them (the LICENSOR).  Notice in the license how (you) is styled in lower case while LICENSOR is in all caps.  That identifies you as an individual with no rights and them as a corporation with all of the rights.  I do licensing, permits and UCC filings for a living so I know what the fuck I'm reading, it's these game forum yo-yos who don't get it but pretend they do.

 

The way this joke of a license is written it illegally stacks the deck in favor of Bethesda and implies they can assert ownership of the undefined “Customized Game Materials”.  There are no definitions associated with the license, there isn't remedy, force majeure, or indemnity clauses to protect (you) the user.  (You) have no legal relief...according to them (the LICENSOR).  It also allows them to assign your rights to unnamed third parties if they so choose.  Basically they think that if you make something and adapt it to work with their stupid game THEY OWN IT.

 

The rub is back in section (A) where they can dispose of the "Customized Game Materials" however they see fit.  The way they see things they can take a mod uploaded to Bethesda.net or Steam (one of their 'licensors') and sell it for profit without due compensation to the original author/uploader; because you agreed to that at instance of creation when you used their software.  I'm not saying they would do that, but they could according to the license and there is dick-all anyone can do about it other than sue them.

 

That's what the license says about mods and modding, yet a few people here are looking at me tough and stupid because I've walked away from Bethesda's bullshit.

 

I wouldn't disagree with any point you've made here, I don't know enough about the legal aspect of it to even comment on it. but for Bethesda to make money on any mod produced by the community those mods would have to be placed on "Bethesda.net" correct? and if the mod maker isn't going to have any sort of compensation for the work they do then why on earth would anyone even think of placing their mod on bethesda.net in the first place. I mean I'm sure some will but it makes no sense. It seems (correct me if I'm wrong) the way you explain it they could actually go after any site that hosts mods for their game/s if they so choose to be compensated for other peoples work because they used "Their" software. Or (and I may have to put on my tin foil hat for this) the delay in getting the CK out is making sure it successfully connects to Bethesda.net and that the CK is only client software of bethesda.net. so any work done in the CK is already there and you have no choice in the matter. which would go along with why they started up bethesda.net in the first place, they couldn't make client software for Steam. But who knows, I surely don't.

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Correct.  Steam (a Bethesda licencor) already does this and they control any files uploaded there.  Once a file is uploaded it takes an act of God to get it removed.  Despite Steam having this policy modders upload there anyway, even though it makes no sense.  It is probable Bethesda will use this tactic on Bethesda.net, with them having the added leverage of the license and the 'we own whatever you make' proviso.

 

According to the license Bethesda could contact forum owners today and demand that any mods not made with their editor be removed from their servers.  Since there isn't an official Bethesda editor for the game any mods that require esps or esms violate section (G) of the License Conditions.  Modders are cracking the game to get added content to work; that violates the license and legally Bethesda could demand the mods be removed and forum owners would have to comply or risk being sued.  Once the editor is released Bethesda can evoke section (A) of the License Conditions at any time and scuttle anything not made with their editor.  The legal mechanics are there and they could do it, but it would be a PR disaster for Bethesda.

 

Also, once the editor is released Bethesda will be changing the license to reflect their interest in the software and anything made with it.  When the FO4 CK is released there will be a forced Steam update for the game, where they will install a new Steam.exe or steam_api.dll that will force compatibility mode for the game (it won't launch).  People will then be forced to install the Steam update and when they do the NEW licence will come into effect.  Bethesda/Steam did this for Skyrim when they tried monetized modding so they already know it works.  What this new license will entail is anyone's guess.  Just don't be shocked when it happens.

 

On a side note, Steam updated itself for a FO4 patch a few weeks ago.  This Steam update sabotaged my NewVegas install and I had to reset all of my configs back to the way I had them.  Luckily I have back ups stored in a folder outside of the Steam directory.  I don't have FO4 installed AT ALL but I got the Steam update for it anyway.  After that I opted for the nuclear option and I placed every Steam exe behind my firewall and Steam is no longer on my start menu.  I mentioned this to demonstrate what Steam is capable of when Bethesda snaps their fingers.  Why would Bethesda.net be any different?

 

As for FO4 mods only being uploaded to Bethesda.net as the sole venue; the same concern was voiced for Steam Workshop and Skyrim.  That didn't happen but the mechanics are there for it.  Users must be logged into to Steam to use that CK and there is a button for uploading directly to Steam.  Bethesda being able to make the FO4 CK client software and forcing users to only use Bethesda.net as a mod distribution platform isn't that big of a programming stretch.  Guaranteed that will be the how console mods are done and monetized modding if they bring that back.

I'm not saying Bethesda will in fact force modders to use Bethesda.net as their only source for distribution, but they have the means and when looking at the licence there wouldn't be anything anyone could do about it.

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