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LordNecris

A little warning to mod creators of non adult mods....

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So this is what I get to wake up to (and by the pure fact I feel the need to actually post in relation should mean a bit(I never fucking talk))

 

I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? Probably a dead mod I suspect.

 

On a side note, If you guys use mods with dependances from the nexus, I'd go check them out to make sure they wont end up being sold.

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Well I borrowed this from steam

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............./´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸............|...__.....\....|...|............/... ___|
........../'/.../..../......./¨¯\..........|...|....\....|....|...|...........|..../
........('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...').........|...|.....|...|....|...|...........|...|
.........\.................'...../...........|...|__/...|....|...|____....|...\____
..........''...\.......... _.·..............|_____./.....\______\....\_____|
............\..............(
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Edit: That'll be £5.99 folks. Pay up.

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I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? 

Because those donations are a myth.

Everyone heard about them...

No one have seen them...

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I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? 

Because those donations are a myth.

Everyone heard about them...

No one have seen them...

 

 

Far enough. I feel bad for even bringing it up now.

I should probably go donate now +_+

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I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? 

Because those donations are a myth.

Everyone heard about them...

No one have seen them...

 

 

Going with this logic, female orgasm is also a myth.

 

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Heh. Interesting times :)

 

One thing strikes me quite strongly. For years now, any mention of piracy for Beth games has been slapped down hard. Not always by the forum admins either. Today I'm seeing lots of people advocating piracy and almost no-one arguing the case against. Thing is, that's a battle Beth had pretty much won with Steam. Regular sale offers meant you could get the games at reasonable prices and Steam has always been seen as the least offensive of DRM platforms. Now they're in danger of throwing all that away.

 

I also wonder if they've thought about how much value the modding community used to add to their games. A large part of the reason why Skyrim was such a hit was that a hell of a lot of people were still playing Oblivion and/or Fallout3 when it was announced. Hell, I'm on a Morrowind binge myself right now. Bethesda games tend to have a lasting value that you see in very few games, and the reason for that is that modders keep the games fresh. As things stand, this move looks like ending all that. But it's not the sort of value you can put on a spreadsheet...

 

I doubt this will stand. The response has been so strongly negative that Beth can't be in any doubt as to the fan reactions. I suspect that they'll quietly downplay this and find some pretext for backing away from the scheme. As long as Nexus and LL and other sites are free to distribute mods then there's probably not going to be a lot of buy-in anyway. Unless Beth or Valve decide to try and find some way to prevent other sites from competing. If that happens...

 

If that happens ... well maybe we need to accept that nothing lasts forever. Beth gave us some brilliant games over the years but that all good things come to an end. Maybe this is how it happens. It's sad, but not a big deal. All the talent and creativity we've seen in the modding community isn't going to vanish. Other platforms will arise and we'll see the same creative processes continue. They just won't involve Beth games to any great extent.

 

And it the worst comes the the worst ... I think I'd be OK with that.

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I'm struggling to understand the logic behind this (From a modder perspective. The corporate perspective is easy). The way it used to work is you made a mod, People played/used it and in some cases went "This is quite good, I'd like to give you some money."

Where does locking this stuff behind paywalls get you? 

Because those donations are a myth.

Everyone heard about them...

No one have seen them...

 

 

Going with this logic, female orgasm is also a myth.

 

 

Well, I can say it's not a myth. .P But if you do it for enjoying the hell out of it then it's called making love. If you are getting paid to get banged and you do not even enjoy it that much any more because it feels like a job, then it's called prostitution. Sure, you can be a famous hooker, but you'll never be respected as much as a lover (with some exceptions (pervs)). ;)

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Most people can't afford to buy games at full price and a lot people don't even buy DLCs unless they are included in the price. Contrary to what some of you think, people don't shit money. People use mods because they are free. When you demand money or donation for mods you're shooting yourself in the foot, as most people will never pay for them and will also form a negative opinion about using mods, which will, in return, damage modding and moddable games altogether. Shouldn't be that difficult to imagine.

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Secondly you have the potential damage to the modding community. You're not wrong, mind you - the paid mods right now are 95% shit, but big names have already dipped their toes in the water. If it's successful for them, and if the community at large doesn't make sure the discontent is heard and felt, there's nothing stopping others from taking the same dive. We're already seeing mods as paid exclusive. Wet and Cold won't update for free anymore.

 

modding community you say?

 

heres few of my favorite ones since yesterday,

 

************* 54 minutes ago 

FUCK YOU, greedy asshole piece of shit! I hope you lose everyone you care about even a little.

 

************ 1 hour ago 

Get cancer

 

**************1 hour ago 

Fuck you and anyone else supporting this. Fucking scumbags.

 

*********** 1 hour ago 

Make it free, you greedy piece of shit

 

**********1 hour ago 

HOPE YOU GET SMASHED BY A FLYING TRAIN, PIECE OF SHIT 

 

And hundreds more like this. Because Chesko dared to ask for 40 cents for a mod...

 

I was a contributor for that mod.

Was. Because i don't want to have anything in common with that "community" anymore.

 

the idea that the time i could spent with friends or girlfriend i would be spending working on something to please such "community" suddenly started to sound very stupid.

 

 

 

Your name sounds extremely familiar. Though I remember it as Aggh. What mods have you made? But anyway - 

There's definitely a rabid base of folks out there with one track minds that absolutely refuse to see the bigger picture. Even though such people tend to be in the larger pool, they shouldn't be used as an example for everyone. There are many out there that aren't like this. Many out there that greatly admire, respect, and even cherish mod creators. I'm definitely one of them.

 

That said, I made a rather huge post in a comment section on Steam, but of course it's limited to 1000 characters. I'd like to copy/paste my post here, since I'd rather not delete it and throw it away. It's my thoughts on this subject, after reading, watching, and listening to what's been going on. Admittedly quite a bit of it parrots what's already been said here, though.

 

 

"I actually agree with that mod creators should be given the choice to be paid for their work. However the way Valve/Bethesda implemented this was beyond abysmal. There are far, far too many downsides to this system...so many ways to exploit it as well.

The good: Mod creators are able to get paid for their work, thus there's a chance for more frequent updates, better quality, and a more stable "real life" for them. Many mod creators have disappeared due to real life circumstances that tend to involve money. This COULD change that.

 

The bad: There's...so much bad. I'll have to use bullet points.

 

1. The amount they get paid for is extremely low. Valve/Beth gets 75% right off the top.

 

2. Someone downloads a mod, and realizes after 24 hours (There is a 24 hour refund. A nice gesture, but ultimately fails for the reason soon to be stated) the mod in question has broken something. I've had many a mod do this to me, in fact. But now, the player is up shit's creek. They have a broken mod and a potentially broken character, and can't even ask for their money back. They can ask for the problem to be fixed, but depending on the mod/the author, that problem might take days, weeks, months, or perhaps forever to be fixed. THIS is one big reason why PLAYER CREATED MODS should -never- be monetized by the game's company or distributor. Because they can't be liable for a broken mod, and the player is left wasting money if that happens.

 

3. Modders that wish to keep their mods free and on other sites (like Tesnexus) will have to constantly be on the look out for people stealing their mods and putting them on Steam for profit.

 

4. Let me reiterate 3: People...will be stealing...mods. There are already a few mod creators that have quit because of this. Already. It hasn't even been 24 hours since the reveal.

 

5. The tsunami of shitty mods will come. People flinging a few retextures up on Steam hoping to score a quick buck will be rampant. Steam's workshop will be a graveyard of shitty katana retextures and ripped Frostmourne swords.

 

6. The tsunami of copy/paste mods that either have a few things tweaked to make it "different", or straight up clones with different names will be coming That's right: be ready to see "Different Beginnings: Be Aware of Living" sprout up here and there (kudos to whoever guesses the original mod name. Shouldn't be hard though, it's really popular.)

 

7. The extreme rift in the modding community. There is so much anger and hatred right now...Some people understanding, other people vehemently against it, and others straight up afraid of doing anything at all with Skyrim or Bethesda, or even Steam anymore. You introduce money into a free community like modding, and you got yourself a ruined community. It's already happening....and unless this move is overturned, Skyrim modding will cease to exist the way it does now.

 

But what could be done about this? What would make everyone happy? Well you can't ever make every single person happy. However, one good way to make most happy is a donation system. More people will play the mods. And sure, while not everyone will donate, there will be FAR less anger and hate spewn everywhere, and thus there will be more players enjoying the mod in question and more chances for the mod author to get a donation. Especially if they add incentives (Like adding a donator's character to their mod, or something along those lines. Just don't lock content behind a donation wall. That would defeat the purpose of it being a -donation-).

 

This is a really horrifying state of affairs and the domino effect is very real. I sincerely hope the petition (which was started 12 hours ago and already has over 17.5 thousand signatures) will get Valve/Bethesda's attention. This needs to be stopped. Now.

 

The petition, btw: https://www.change.org/p/valve-remove-the-paid-content-of-the-steam-workshop

"

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Don't forget that most big mods tend to destroy your save over time or have incompatibilities with everything. And the small ones such as armors or weapons ? Well let's just say that with a good Enb and photoshop anything can look good.

 

Steam will get flooded with things far worse than you can imagine.

 

Most of them will make mods that rebalance the game. How ? By randomly changing random values in the CK for 2 hours and then call it High level rebalance ultimate immersive beautiful patch.Or make armors that look good as long as you dont move.

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Well, the only reason I loved skyrim is trying out countless new cool stuff that were mods. If I have to pay for each and every one of them I'm not even going to be interested.
They pretty much turned skyrim into a free to play/pay to win style game that you first have to buy and it's single player. :D

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/bad Russian movie accent: “Long live glorious capitalism eyh comrade”

 

(TLDR at the bottom, cause I know this is a bit long)

 

Well I've watched TotalBiscuit's video (heck I first found out about this trough his twitter), then I read Chesko's open letter, and I've read pretty much trough every post in this topic (may have skimmed a post here and there tho)

 

Okay first off a bit of history with me and modding, I don't make mods myself, at all, I just use them, I have a bit of skill in 3D, but my texturing abilities are complete and utter ass, and don't even get me started on coding stuff.

Now I've been using mods for various games for a good long time, probably the first, and the longest are the mods and user made campaigns for FreeSpace 2, a Space Combat Simulator released in 1999, and still a very popular modded game.

So that's 16 years of off and on using mods for this game, when the developer (Volition) and the publisher (InterPlay) split, Volition devs put up the source code for the game online, which turned into an ever evolving reworking and rebuilding of the games engine by the modders.

 

In those 16 years I've seen some very popular mods get updated, and reupdated, and completely reworked, but also some very anticipated mods, often made by modders of previously popular mods, just grind to a halt after a few years of hard work, and then limbo.

A lot of that had to do with the reality of well...life...people got older, those modders in their late teens and early twenties from back then are now in their thirties, and got different responsibilities, families, jobs and careers, and thus less and less time to work on mods.

 

I know how much time goes into making these mods, getting them to work, and keeping them working with updates/patches/other mods/etc, and to ask for some form of compensation for all that is understandable, after all the modder is putting in his own valuable free time so we can all use our favorite mods.

 

Now the way the Steam Workshop goes about it is totally wrong in my eyes, if anything it should be skewed the other way, 75% for the modder, 25% for Valve and Bethesda, or at least 50/50.

Yes Valve and Bethesda do deserve some amount of compensation, one does host the files, the other does provide the base assets and tools, but not three quarters of the entire price.

 

Now I've seen people say why not use Patreon instead to support your content creators, why use this stupid Steam system, well as I mentioned as it currently stands the Steam system is indeed stupid.

But the basics of this in the end boil down to one thing, ease of use.

A lot of people find Patreon just a hassle, it one more thing to sign up for, some view it as not much different from Kickstarter, even tho you're supporting the person, not the project.

People tend to be much more inclined to pay for something if there is a big “PAY HERE”, “SUBSCRIBE HERE” or “DONATE HERE” button on the mod page.

Also Steam keeps everything in a nice single program, no need to go to the creators Patreon site, just a few clicks and done, you've supported your favorite mod, and modder.

 

This is why I expect that a lot more mods will go on here with a “pay what you want” price instead of a fixed price.

 

I agree with TB's assertion that, if actually fairly compensated (which it's currently not) this could keep modders in the scene, go professional if you will, and thus earn their living making mods, and even attract new people to scene who couldn't justify getting involved in it because of real life.

Now that might seem counterproductive to the idea of mods, but you've got to realize that people need to make a living somehow, one can not live on air alone, and as time passes responsibilities stack up.

Where a modder might spend several hours a day modding because he's in college and has a pretty open roster, a few years down the line he might be married with kids, and has a normal 9 to 5 job, and the few free evening hours are mix of time spent with the kids and wife, and maybe a bit of relaxing hobby on the side, time to make mods? That's gone.

 

But if you can make it your day job, if you can support yourself and your family doing this, you have an experienced modder who can not only support and improve a game well beyond it's life time, you have an experienced and motivated modder for the next game in the series who can jump in the day of release.

It allows them to spend more hours in a day working on a mod, both allowing to improve the standard of a mod and speeding up the release of it.

 

I'd like to draw the comparison to Twitch.tv, where talented individuals can build an audience, become a partner, and earn 50% of the revenue from subscriptions and ads, and, with enough subscribers, support themselves (and in some cases well beyond that), all by just streaming themselves playing videogames and interacting with their audience.

It doesn't block out the viewers who are not subscribed, it doesn't block those non-subs from viewing the stream at the highest quality, which is source, so what are the sub perks? It allows you to chat when the streamer puts the chat in subscriber only mode, that's it.

 

That's the eventual model we have to work towards for modders, one that does not block anything for the non-paying user but gives perks to the paying, like say a month of early access, or beta testing the mod, all on the same site, easy to use, without redirections to other sites for the user, and fair compensation for the modder, host, and original creator.

 

 

TLDR:

Long time mod user, think mod creators do deserve compensation, but fairly not like it's now with Valve/Bethesda taking 75% of the cut.

Would be a positive thing if modders could make it their job, keep talented modders modding, instead of dropping modding for normal job.

Paying must be voluntary, with perks for the paying, but no restrictions for the non-paying.

Make the payment system easy to use, no extra logins and redirections to other sites.

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This makes me really sad... 

 

A crowbar for 0.45€... WTF this is 20min work in 3DSMax, 20min Work in photoshop and 20min in Creation Kit.   :mellow:

 

This will hurt Skyrim Nexus and the modding community. 

Paying for big mods is ok, but I will and don't want to pay for small mods like weapons and armors. 

 

 

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Wait this is becoming eerily familiar.

 

Some people do some shady or potentially unethical things.

 

The community reacts as the community would be expected to react to it...with negativity.

 

Then the people that did the shady things say the community is the problem and they don't want to have anything to do with it any more?

 

 

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The thing I'm really worried about is the fact that Steam has very little quality control and of course their sterling customer service record. I did hear something about getting a refund within 24 hours no questions asked. Refund as in refunded to your steam wallet. Given the amount of "early access" crap flooding steam, mods MIGHT go down the same route. "Guess what guys? you can pay for a mod that's gonna be absolutely PURE!!!" A week after " Nah development has ceased. This mod is dead". Who is gonna be responsible then? There's also a matter of mods using assets or dependencies on other mods or programs (SKSE). If I'm a mod author and someone's using assets from my mods and getting paid for it I'd hate to be out of the loop. I don't exactly blame modders for putting their mods up for sale it's steam/bethesda I blame for the crappy business model

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Well, the good news is that we are in no hurry to worry about Frostfall compatibility for LL mods using it. It is going to get behind the Workshop paywall for months, so we - at least I - can start a new character without missing out anything.

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Valve/Bethesda, you are REALLY greedy...

 

I really hope people just don't buy a single mod. It's just so wrong... There are ways to support a modder, but this one is not one, not even close.

 

The mod scenario to come will be really blurry (being soft) if this strategy of Valve success.

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I'd like to draw the comparison to Twitch.tv, where talented individuals can build an audience, become a partner, and earn 50% of the revenue from subscriptions and ads, and, with enough subscribers, support themselves (and in some cases well beyond that), all by just streaming themselves playing videogames and interacting with their audience.

It doesn't block out the viewers who are not subscribed, it doesn't block those non-subs from viewing the stream at the highest quality, which is source, so what are the sub perks? It allows you to chat when the streamer puts the chat in subscriber only mode, that's it.

 

 

I would agree with having a sub only or even a supporter only perks for mods. While at the same time not locking the content behind a paywall. A bit hard to integrate for mods i guess.  :s

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