HDT Dragon Tails

[boo]

Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT? Also, right now it seems those tails "neutral" position is too high and should be closer to vertical. They should also probably be a good bit heavier. The tails also come out of the butt too high, much higher than vanilla. It would also be awesome if there was collision between tails / bodies / walls, etc. (especially with bodies for all those animations which don't animate tails)

 

Great start though.

[jacques00]

 

 

 

Heh, I use customized build based on a bit older variant and tails are stiff from the beginning and spasm and twitch a lot no wonder something isnt quite compatible. I'm using the latest skeleton (XPMSE).

 

Ah, depending on how old it is, if it can read .xml's, you might need to open the .xml's and multiply a certain variable by a certain number, but I'm not sure what and if it'll make the tails perform as they should. Sorry I can't suggest much to help, but if you can upgrade the plug-in, I would recommend it.

 

 

Could you attach your working HDT dll + xml files (or if there are more suff in new builds)? That way I could examine if it's only version related.

Here is the plug-in I have:

hdt_2014-02-22.zip

 

I think this was the version right before the version when the plug-in was split into separate files to control certain settings. It should contain the .dll and the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml (which includes the belly nodes--but since you have XPMSE, you should be fine). You can replace the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml with your own if you don't like the settings for it.

 

Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT? Also, right now it seems those tails "neutral" position is too high and should be closer to vertical. They should also probably be a good bit heavier. The tails also come out of the butt too high, much higher than vanilla. It would also be awesome if there was collision between tails / bodies / walls, etc. (especially with bodies for all those animations which don't animate tails)

 

Great start though.

Thanks. I cannot promise those additional changes, but if you or any other modder wants to make it and share, I give my permission to utilize the resources and do so.

 

I am aware the tails are not perfect and are totally reliant on the settings I currently have, but I tried to do what I could. The tails could be loosened a bit more to dangle, but for me the jittery glitches tend to happen more often when I make it that way. If I set the range of values is too high or too low, the physics freak out. The same happens when I turn on the collision properties. There are just too many variables bouncing around that the more that is implemented, the higher the chances of the physics freaking out (for me though, not sure about others).

 

I do acknowledge that the tails (at least for female khajiit and argonians) are a little high up mainly because it was positioned with a CBBE-style body for reference and not the vanilla model. Also, aesthetically, I prefer the base of the tail to be starting at the spine's sacrum than to protrude out from between the two butt cheeks. You can change the positioning of the tail if you like in NifSkope by either moving the mesh and Apply the transform and save; or by simply moving the 'POS TailSpine','POS TailSpine1', and 'Tail Main' bone nodes to the placement you desire and save (Translation Z-axis if you want to move the tail up or down, default is 0, and remember to do it for both _0 and _1 weight).

 

Hope this helps and thanks again!

[Kalatorni]

 

Here is the plug-in I have:

hdt_2014-02-22.zip

 

I think this was the version right before the version when the plug-in was split into separate files to control certain settings. It should contain the .dll and the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml (which includes the belly nodes--but since you have XPMSE, you should be fine). You can replace the hdtPhysicsExtensionsDefaultBBP.xml with your own if you don't like the settings for it.

 

 

Well, it ended like I kinda expected. After some tests... Good news: tail worked, very nice! Gorgeous even. Bad news: everything else didnt

 

Your dll file and my old customized xml: tail worked, breasts kinda flapped like wings without any movement to trigger...

 

Both your files: tail worked, other physics didnt (no animation whatsoever).

 

Tried both tests with and without skeleton_female, that didnt have any effect. I wonder if there's something else that messes up this setting...

 

[ElPsyCongroo]

Well I am not quite like to add a tail to my character but still happy to see this.

[jacques00]

 

Well, it ended like I kinda expected. After some tests... Good news: tail worked, very nice! Gorgeous even. Bad news: everything else didnt

Your dll file and my old customized xml: tail worked, breasts kinda flapped like wings without any movement to trigger...

 

Both your files: tail worked, other physics didnt (no animation whatsoever).

 

Tried both tests with and without skeleton_female, that didnt have any effect. I wonder if there's something else that messes up this setting...

 

Hm... I assume it has something to do with your DefaultBBP.xml (since your .xml is older, it might require that multiplier tweak I mentioned earlier), though I don't understand how it won't work with mine. I am assuming you have the latest XPMSE, so how are you using HDT_PE--Are you using it in conjunction with the HDT Havok Object, or all by itself? I am currently using it by itself. Also check if you aren't using a body/cloth/armor mesh .nif linked to a different .xml.

 

I'm not sure what else to suggest, but any more details will be helpful and thanks for testing!

[Kalatorni]

I'm not using havok since I can't get it to work with my existing, customized xml nor I can't transfer values from old xml to collision xml version. I also haven't linked nifs to collision, if that's what you meant.

I use customized 9-28 xml and version 11-11 dll (? dunno I named it 1-11...).

But! I tested again with the latest HDT, and it seemed to work so I think there was an issue somewhere when I tested this last time. It cant be the XPMSE... Now I need to hunt more details regarding this setup... I hope to find the "sweet" spot where I get to keep my customized settings but also this would work...

 

(NSFW)

Edit:

Yep yep, it seems it requires at least 11-10 dll version... but then my 9-28 based xml goes fubar

[jacques00]

Yep yep, it seems it requires at least 11-10 dll version... but then my 9-28 based xml goes fubar

 

Thanks for the image--I used it as an example image in the first post. I will also note the HDT_PE plug-in version as well.

 

I'm sure you can modify your current .xml to match the movement you had for your older .xml (using the Just For Fun tool), or try to find .xml's you like that are currently posted. If you had collisions and wanted to keep them, you may have to end up using the HDT Havok Object since the plug-in can't apply collisions using the DefaultBBP.xml (an alternate .xml has to be linked to an object's .nif, so you can either link them with each body/cloth/armor or hands/feet, or use the equippable Havok Object).

 

Hope this helps!

[jacques00]

Any chance you can make a version of the khajiit / argonian tails that replaces the vanilla ones and still uses the existing animation + HDT?

 

I just made a quick replacer mod if you want to test it out (see the first post). The .xmls have not been changed, so the movement will be the same as the main mod--however, it should have vanilla placement. I did not link the nodes to respond to the animation of the tail, so you might not see that movement at all (it's HDT_PE movement only at this point). It shouldn't be too hard to add nodes to make it happen, I just don't have the time for it at the moment.

 

Either way, I hope this helps!

 

[boo]

Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?

[jacques00]

Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?

 

To make the animation affect the movement, the tail .nif's would need to be edited with extra nodes that have names matching the original tail bone chain from the default skeleton (in this case, adding a 'Tailbone01'in the hierarchy may do the trick, assuming that node has animations tied to it in-game--it would require adding and testing for each bone, and that may take a while).

 

As for collisions, I don't think HDT_PE's collisions work that way. HDT_PE physics can only interact with other HDT_PE collision data. That means other Havok collision boundaries in the game world won't be detected by the bone chain made from HDT_PE unless it is tied to the HDT_PE plugin somehow (like via .xml). So having the tail hit the body is possible if the body had collision data that is defined by an .xml, and same goes for the walls. But by default, if collisions were turned on for the tail, it would not interact with the background elements without having those elements tied to HDT_PE... if that makes any sense.

 

[Kalatorni]

 

Thanks for the image--I used it as an example image in the first post. I will also note the HDT_PE plug-in version as well.

 

I'm sure you can modify your current .xml to match the movement you had for your older .xml (using the Just For Fun tool), or try to find .xml's you like that are currently posted. If you had collisions and wanted to keep them, you may have to end up using the HDT Havok Object since the plug-in can't apply collisions using the DefaultBBP.xml (an alternate .xml has to be linked to an object's .nif, so you can either link them with each body/cloth/armor or hands/feet, or use the equippable Havok Object).

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

You're welcome, I would have selected a bit more, mm, appropriate image if I would have known that some people take offense if they see a bit naked skin.

 

To continue my ranting... The main problem with xml's is that past versio 11-10 the way hdt physics works changed a bit, so old xml values can't be exported. Even the movement is slightly different, a bit more restricted. It's a tedious trial & error and even though carefully testing different values for hours I can't get even close to my goal *raeg*. Extra tedious as JFF tends to reset certain values, so if you edit xml via notepad and then open it in JFF.... *poof*.

 

As I'm updating the plugin I think I can just jump to the deep end of the pool while at it and try to add collision as well (Havok breast physics + xml for beginners).

 

Thanks for your help!

 

 

[boo]

 

Wait, so how do I go about making the animation affect the movement? And how would I enable collision with bodies / the environment?

 

To make the animation affect the movement, the tail .nif's would need to be edited with extra nodes that have names matching the original tail bone chain from the default skeleton (in this case, adding a 'Tailbone01'in the hierarchy may do the trick, assuming that node has animations tied to it in-game--it would require adding and testing for each bone, and that may take a while).

 

As for collisions, I don't think HDT_PE's collisions work that way. HDT_PE physics can only interact with other HDT_PE collision data. That means other Havok collision boundaries in the game world won't be detected by the bone chain made from HDT_PE unless it is tied to the HDT_PE plugin somehow (like via .xml). So having the tail hit the body is possible if the body had collision data that is defined by an .xml, and same goes for the walls. But by default, if collisions were turned on for the tail, it would not interact with the background elements without having those elements tied to HDT_PE... if that makes any sense.

 

 

 

I added the bone nodes, but no animation happens. But then it occurs to me that the mesh probably doesn't have any vertices associated with the bones used for animation, right?

 

[farranya]

Would it be possible to see if a Kaleen race tail could be done from the nexus?

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/8464/?

[boo]

So, how the heck do you get animation on HDT enabled stuff? I added correct weighting on the mesh for the original bones, but in game you end up with crazy stretching whenever the HDT stuff kicks in.

[jacques00]

So, how the heck do you get animation on HDT enabled stuff? I added correct weighting on the mesh for the original bones, but in game you end up with crazy stretching whenever the HDT stuff kicks in.

 

I just tested it and it is not a simple procedure and really has to do with skeletons and animation information. The animation of the vanilla beast tails consists of the skeleton of the beast race (this is relatively simple to replicate and link up) and Bethesda's BehaviorGraphExtraData (BGED--links to the animation .hkx behavior file). The issue with attaching HDT physics is that once those physics are attached, their movements override the animations dictated in the .hkx file. There will be no errors (at least any that I know of) and the the .hkx file plays as it should--but it won't be visible because the HDT physics is what is controlling the movement of the bone nodes, if that makes any sense. Using different bone setups may enable getting around this issue, but again, it will require testing and then some.

 

As for your stretching issue, it is probably because you have HDT-enabled physics but never anchored your nodes properly. If that is not the case, and you are using my .xmls to control the tails, there will be stretching if you simply just renamed the nodes to match the vanilla bones--since the bone chain I used in creating the tails have more joints and don't match the vanilla skeleton's exactly.

 

My suggestion to you would be to try and create your own tail .xml using the vanilla joint chain (TailBone01 to Tailbone05, with spacing at 14.25 units in the Z-axis between each bone node) and link it up in your vanilla assets. In that way,  you will not have so many diverging variables and you will closer fit the vanilla parameters. I cannot guarantee that you will have both HDT physics and animation playback, but it's a start.

[boo]

Any tips / tutorials on where to start with creating my own havoc xml from scratch?

[jacques00]

Any tips / tutorials on where to start with creating my own havoc xml from scratch?

I want to eventually learn how to create them using 3DS Max with Canderes' tutorials, but in the meantime, I have been using the Just For Fun tool. Hope this helps!

[b00marrows]

Hey, congratulations on succeeding with the tails. I have been watching the thread waiting for you to add beast tails.

 

Ill probably have allot to say and ask in the future, i will start with this:

 

Where are the Xml's for the beast tails? XD you seem to have no packaged them!

My bad seems my anti-virus decided to hide them while it scanned them without asking... looks like another antivirus bites the dust.

 

EDIT:

OK, had a look. not bad! this is looking great so far!

 

A few tip's / idea's:

1. I highly recommend you switch to using the HDT Tail bone's that Groovtama recently added to his skeleton

2. Tails Don't usually twist, remove the twisting and you should get some more accurate results in your numbers/movement.

 

I will help out in any way I can, I look forward to your development!

[jacques00]

Hey, congratulations on succeeding with the tails. I have been watching the thread waiting for you to add beast tails.

Thanks, it was a very tedious process!

 

A few tip's / idea's:

1. I highly recommend you switch to using the HDT Tail bone's that Groovtama recently added to his skeleton

2. Tails Don't usually twist, remove the twisting and you should get some more accurate results in your numbers/movement.

 

I will help out in any way I can, I look forward to your development!

1. I will definitely see--I may make an alternate download for those using Groovetama's skeleton. The time-consuming part will be re-binding the meshes to the new bone chains (simple), creating the .xml's for each tail (also simple, but very tedious), and testing and refining (the most time consuming part!).

 

2. Indeed--I felt the twisting was a bit unnatural too, but I would rather minimize them than to get rid of them completely--I tend to have recurring glitches when I go under or over a certain range of values (some numbers not mixing well with others, I guess).

 

If you want to dissect this mod and improve on it, feel free. I'll try to answer any questions you may have. For now, I think I'll take a break from delving too far into this mod until I have the time and interest to pursue it. I do want to include working collisions like you had going for your mod, but because of physics stability issues, that will be on hiatus until I can find the correct values that can play well with collisions without glitching. On my test runs, the physics usually performs well in enclosed spaces; but once I move the character out onto Skyrim and near multiple HDT-tailed characters or near thick waterfalls, the physics tend to freak out out and not look pretty. I'm hoping there will be a solution eventually...

 

Thank you for your interest!

[jacques00]

Would it be possible to see if a Kaleen race tail could be done from the nexus?

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/8464/?

 

Okay, I just posted a replacer mod for the tails on the opening post. I haven't tested it, so I don't know if it works at all. Please try it out and let me know of your results. Remember to back up any files just in case something goes wrong.

 

Hope this helps!

[farranya]

I used to have tail deleted because it did not work with custom animations well but your mod works very good.

 

Thank you

[b00marrows]

I have been studying your tail files recently, I'm confused as to why you made a custom tail with custom bones.

"POS TailBoneXX" these are custom bones you rigged together using the tail spine bone's, is there a reason you had to do this?

 

On a side note... I think i can see what I was doing wrong...

[jacques00]

I have been studying your tail files recently, I'm confused as to why you made a custom tail with custom bones.

"POS TailBoneXX" these are custom bones you rigged together using the tail spine bone's, is there a reason you had to do this?

That was mainly because I wanted to create a custom tail bone chain with more bones in comparison to the original skeleton. This was so the user wouldn't have to download a specific skeleton to get the tail working--also some skeleton packages have separate skeletons for human and beast races, so there's no guarantee that a tail bone chain would exist (which would lead to CTD errors). For each tail chain, my intention was on giving each tail custom lengths and rebind them to their own chains, but I didn't have the time to do that, so I left them all the same length (maybe in a future update if I have more time for it).

 

The reason why I made separate nodes, one with the prefix POS and the other NPC, was one was designated for binding physics to, and the other was for binding the mesh to--this is for anyone who wanted to custom fit their tails without fudging up the binds, they just need to offset the nodes a little (though collision locations might not align properly after the move). None of the bones in the tail chain are named like the ones on the vanilla skeleton, so hopefully there are no clashes there.

 

On a side note... I think i can see what I was doing wrong...

That's good to hear. If there's anything specific you'd like to ask, I'll try to help to the best of my knowledge.

[Maelstrius]

Alright, so I've redownloaded this, and it worked..until again the tail spazzed out. I'm thinking, is it because the butt of my character has HDT? the jiggle of it? 

[jacques00]

Alright, so I've redownloaded this, and it worked..until again the tail spazzed out. I'm thinking, is it because the butt of my character has HDT? the jiggle of it? 

 

Nah, it shouldn't be because HDT is on your character, that shouldn't be too much of a problem, especially if you haven't gone in the tails' .xml and activated the collision data. I think I will restate that there are numerous variables on what affects real-time physics. I'm not sure how old your hardware is, but the physics performance is determined by how well your machine calculates and juggles values around. So the more fluidly your graphics processor can calculate, the better performance you will have, and thus better results (less glitching out). I've noticed if I play Skyrim with minimal amount of programs running in the background, the HDT tails tend to perform very well--once I start using up my GPU/CPU, like working in graphics programs and video streaming/capturing, the tails tend to spazz out more often. I don't have definitive proof of the connection, but I will make the assumption that using up the GPU, no matter how excessive, takes it's toll on the HDT physics calculations (HDT_PE is a very sensitive indivdual, and you have to treat her right or she'll get all emotional).

 

Aside from hardware, I've made some observations while working with the tails and cross-referencing other HDT_PE-related projects and I will try to lay them out here so anyone working with HDT_PE can try to resolve the spazzing issue, if possible. When creating a skeleton for HDT_PE use, I always take note of how the relative coordinate system is and how things are oriented from bone to bone. In the HDT tails and Raging Horse projects, the bones are aligned in a perfectly horizontal chain. I think this may be why the tails glitch out moreso than objects with bone chains lined diagonally or vertically (like hair, skirts, dresses, etc).

 

Of course, regardless of collisions, HDT physics performs very well with single-bone setups (like the ever popular boob, butt, and belly physics), but once the bones are hooked into a chain, HDT physics likes to go nuts. This basically happens because the bone being affected by the physics is parented to another bone also affected by physics, so that particular bone needs to rely on another set of dynamic variables (instead of static variables--coordinates, math, physics and all that jazz)--that is why if the calculations are interrupted, HDT might accidentally take in jibberish values and the result would be whacked out positioning of bones, creating that spazzing effect. This is why the spazzing starts at the bone immediately after the first parent bone being affected by the physics (otherwise, that parent bone works as it is expected to be).

 

Going back to my bone setups, I think that laying out the bones horizontally possibly creates an issue with the calculation because of how the bones are relatively placed to one another, so each child bone is more prone to something like... dividing by zero or something. I can't say this theory is 100% correct, but I do notice horizontal bone chains screwing up a lot more than non-horizontal ones (if I am wrong, please correct me!). A solution may be to displace and rotate the bones a little and maybe that will help (I haven't done rigorous testing on this, so I cannot say for certain). But regardless of bone placement, having physics set up in a chain to calculate on a real-time system will almost always create some glitching. Somewhere, a variable will encounter a value that just doesn't match up, and each dependent child bone will fudge up because of it, regardless of the limits and restrictions set in place by the government--I mean, the .xml.

 

In the game world, these tails usually perform the best inside a cell, like a house or a inside of a city, but are prone to glitchiness outside in Skyrim or near waterfalls that spawn numerous amounts of particle sprites (because maths and stuff). God-tier computers may have better results with the tails, but I can't say for sure since my machine isn't on that level (and no one with said god-tier computers have reported to me with similar issues). Results will vary and though I can't find a 100% solution, I am trying to reach the magic setup that will give the least amount of troubles as possible on the user-end!

 

If I do get to a good solution, this mod will be updated to reflect the improvements--though I hope this helps for anyone reading!

 

Edit: I also tend to use the hkpGenericContrainData and MOTION_SPHERE_INERTIA since all the other options tend to give me weird results. I can see the benefits of ragdoll and other constraints, but they don't react properly with most values I use.