Sanguine Debauchery enhanced: SD+ (January 2022)

[DeepBlueFrog]

41 minutes ago, TheLoverLabCriminal said:

Hi idk why i get problem when i sleep infront of sanguine tour nothing happen i cant go to the dream world is it a bug problem ? the old version work very good

 

I will need an error log after you sleep in front of the statue to answer that.

[DeepBlueFrog]

3 hours ago, Fuzzy_Fox said:

Is it possible for Sanguine to force the player to wear the transparent boots, corset and gloves?

I am thinking about a way to customize the slavery gear, both for normal slavery and for Sanguine's .. stay tuned.

[TheLoverLabCriminal]

1 hour ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

I will need an error log after you sleep in front of the statue to answer that.

with papyrus ? or how ?

[yeahhowaboutnooo]

22 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

• Reduce difficulty of speechcraft tests for release from devices

does this also fix not being able to unequip sanguines-artifact?

Could never get any court-wizard to actually remove it.
 

[Durante]

Is the bug for female master being victim in sexlab still there?

[Br4m]

is the main story of this mod already finished?

[DeepBlueFrog]

45 minutes ago, Br4m said:

is the main story of this mod already finished?

No.. I still have a final chapter to complete. 

 

The rough lines are written. It is now a matter of implementing and testing it.

[DeepBlueFrog]

10 hours ago, Durante said:

Is the bug for female master being victim in sexlab still there?

I saw female masters using dominant animations, so I would like to say it is fixed, but I will need more confirmations from users out there.

[macnchz]

strange - have the demora outcasts males wearing underwear now?  

[aspirine2]

is there an option for the pc to ask npc for beating or punishment !??

[JocelynEsqui23]

The >>Warning: Inconsistent mod sanguinesDebauchery Number of animations differs between FNIS List (86) and corresponding behavior file (94)<<

ChAnims103(17) CTD: 1.2% pOpt: 0.0%

NOTE: sanguinesDebauchery uses outdated behavior file (may invalidate CTD Load calculation)

 

 warning is always showing up in FNIS but I dont know why, I downloaded all the required mods and the required mods for those mods, I also re-redownloaded all the mods. Can someone please help me

[Lupine00]

I was excited to see that there was an update for SD+.

Thanks for continuing to update this and the other mods.

 

 

However, I was slightly surprised to see the list of issues that were addressed.

 

While it's great that there are some fixes, most will not impact me much.

 

Can we realistically hope to see some ... enhancements ... in the more fundamental areas of the mod?

 

• A quest to access Sanguine's Shrine that doesn't depend on the Thieves' Guild quest line or pure console cheating. (Need a key).
• Masters not to issue demands that they make impossible for you to fulfill:
  • masters ask you to fetch food while restricting you to locations with no food.
  • masters ask you to fetch valuables while restricting you to locations with no valuables.
• Masters to issue location appropriate demands:
  • If outdoors, the only thing you are likely to find is alchemy ingredients, and if the master is looping, not even those.
  • If indoors, only to ask for things that exist in unlocked containers or loose in the world.
• Detect master "loops" and break them. If the master is wandering in circles, it should be apparent that they haven't reached their target destination after two days, then they are "looping". If they don't have a target destination, but the player must follow them, maybe rethink that scenario as practical? If master is stuck, use a hack to fix it - fade to black and teleport, pull out to Dreamworld, anything but endlessly wandering up and down, up and down, the same single stretch of road over and over.
• Add to/extend the existing main quest so the current end-point is more comprehensible story-wise, and creates an appropriate playable-state going forward.
• Make entertaining the master a less fragile process. I cannot get it to work in most games, despite the SD related mods being last in the LO.
• Solicitation mechanics that let you make money for the master with SD+ appropriate dialogs.
• Fix issues where the master becomes full-up of all the crap you've given him to the point he can't take any more.
• Fix issues where you pick pocket items off the master other than the key. (So you can give them to him, over and over).
• Fix issues where the master will not notice you pick pocketing large items, but will notice an attempt on the key.
• Fix issues where it is almost impossible to escape creature enslavements because the creature will never get rid of you, nothing aggros against them so they never die, and in the rare case something does aggro, they kill it. This is particularly obvious with Falmer - who can, in some cases, even kill dragons. Creatures need to get bored of you after a week or so, so that these really tedious and mind-numbing enslavements can end.
• Fix issues where townsfolk becomes non-hostile to creatures like Falmer and trolls just because they are your SD+ master.
• Fix issues where Falmer and trolls will enter towns (and patrolled hold lands).
• Fix issues where townsfolk, guards, farmers, etc, become non-hostile to creatures, bandits or vampires, just because they are your SD+ master.
• Fix issues with bandits and vampires entering towns and patrolled hold lands.
• If you are enslaved by bandits, after a time, you should either be ransomed, rescued, or given a bounty (the latter to stop you dragging the bandit into town). CCAS gives bounties when enslaved by bandits because the bandits deliberately smear your reputation, to stop you running away. It shouldn't really be the norm that you end bandit enslavement by sheer boredom (time out).
• If you "end" enslavement to bandits by staying friends, you could be given a bounty.
• If a bandit sells you to a non-bandit, any bounty should be cleared and reinstated when you are freed.
• If you rob your master's faction buddies, you should (probably) be punished.
• If you attack your master's faction buddies, it should be punished more strictly.

 

Also, Sex Slaves style features that would work, and require minimal changes to add:

• belted for sex with non-permitted partners - master removes (and replaces) belt to satisfy his own needs
• required to wear decorative plugs for master's entertainment
• required to wear other humiliating outfit parts for master's entertainment (cat/bunny ears, nipple piercings - yes I know Sanguine has piercings) etc.
• spanking as a punishment

 

What I mean about the main quest, is that at the current "end", the events are hard to understand; particularly the actual relevance of the NPC added to the dreamworld.

It just needs some dialog additions to explain it for dummies like me. I really can't make much sense of the existing explanations, despite their length.

Also, it would be nice if there was some small but meaningful gameplay change from that point onward.

For example, Succubus mechanics, or ability to enter the Dreamworld "on purpose" when sleeping, even if enslaved. Yes, I know there's already succubus functionality, but it could extend that with another feature or power. Currently, succubus functionality has no real downside, and the upside is kind of patchy in terms of what skills it gives.

Or, well... anything to make you feel that something had changed about your existence.

 

 

Obviously, I'm not expecting all of that, or exactly that, or TBH, anything at all.

But...

I think anything off the above list would be a big deal.

[Durante]

On 4/1/2020 at 2:31 AM, DeepBlueFrog said:

I saw female masters using dominant animations, so I would like to say it is fixed, but I will need more confirmations from users out there.

Alright. I'll take your word on that.  Although before this update the females already used dominant animations, problem was the female was tagged as victim, which impacts sexlab stats, arousal, facial expressions.

 

What's supposed to happen when master says "Listen carefully.." ? Because I keep getting that and nothing happens.

[donttouchmethere]

2 minutes ago, Durante said:

"Listen carefully.." ?

I want to know too!

[DeepBlueFrog]

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

I was excited to see that there was an update for SD+.

Thanks for continuing to update this and the other mods.

 

However, I was slightly surprised to see the list of issues that were addressed.

 

While it's great that there are some fixes, most will not impact me much.

My focus at this time is first about finishing the quests across all my mods. Fixing bugs and adding features is secondary.

The reason for that is that I spent the better part of two years developing features for SD+ and Hormones. Things like a slavery gear system, a faction tracking system, a task system, dialogues for submissives, hormonal levels and body transformations. 

 

That means two years of mind numbing tests, failures, rewrites and mainly playing the same 5 low levels again and again and again.

 

I came close to being burnt out and quitting altogether, so I decided to make it more fun and interesting first, and for me, that means finishing the stories and dialogues. That also means I will fix bugs as I come across them, but I will also ignore some and not go out of my way to fix them.

 

That said.. thanks for the long list of issues. I will make sure to add them to the issue tracker and take care of them as I can.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Can we realistically hope to see some ... enhancements ... in the more fundamental areas of the mod?

 

• A quest to access Sanguine's Shrine that doesn't depend on the Thieves' Guild quest line or pure console cheating. (Need a key).

That's already done. There is a piece of evidence inside the Brewery and a way to get to the shrine without having to use the locked door from the Thieve's Guild.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Masters not to issue demands that they make impossible for you to fulfill:
  • masters ask you to fetch food while restricting you to locations with no food.
  • masters ask you to fetch valuables while restricting you to locations with no valuables.

You are not restricted to any location. 

If you build up enough disposition with a master (through a lot of sex if need be), you will have a few hours every day to wander around with your master in tow. 

 

You can also ask your master for food.  There is a chance food will be added to their inventory if they don't have anything to give.

Ration yourself and give them back the food they gave you as a sign of obedience and frugality.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Masters to issue location appropriate demands:
  • If outdoors, the only thing you are likely to find is alchemy ingredients, and if the master is looping, not even those.
  • If indoors, only to ask for things that exist in unlocked containers or loose in the world.

As with many things I worked on, the task system is still incomplete and needs a lot of tweaking.

Part of the reason for that is that the idea for the task system as evolved from my original idea and I ended up leaving out a lot of adjustments as I moved on to other things.

 

These are good suggestions and I created an entry on Github for them.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Detect master "loops" and break them. If the master is wandering in circles, it should be apparent that they haven't reached their target destination after two days, then they are "looping". If they don't have a target destination, but the player must follow them, maybe rethink that scenario as practical? If master is stuck, use a hack to fix it - fade to black and teleport, pull out to Dreamworld, anything but endlessly wandering up and down, up and down, the same single stretch of road over and over.

Detecting loops like that is hard to do. I wouldn't know where to begin.

 

You can also break things up a little using the 'Pray to the gods' option from the surrender key. That will force a chance for Death Alternative random events to trigger, or even a visit to Dreamworld. Remember to kneel before praying to an increased chance of something happening.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Add to/extend the existing main quest so the current end-point is more comprehensible story-wise, and creates an appropriate playable-state going forward.

That's my current priority for SD+. 

I have the elements of the quests written down. It's a matter of coming up with the right quest stages, objectives and dialogues.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Make entertaining the master a less fragile process. I cannot get it to work in most games, despite the SD related mods being last in the LO.

What do you mean by 'fragile'? I didn't find issues with it in my tests.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Solicitation mechanics that let you make money for the master with SD+ appropriate dialogs.

You can use Dialogues to beg for money (I'm poor...) or offer your services from anyone (Please.. can I entertain you?).

For more elaborate options I am relying on people using their favorite mod for porstitution instead of creating yet another full prostitution mod.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Fix issues where the master becomes full-up of all the crap you've given him to the point he can't take any more.

That's the idea behind the master wearing or drinking items at random as you give them stuff. I will add other options if I can.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Fix issues where you pick pocket items off the master other than the key. (So you can give them to him, over and over).

That's another hard thing to do. I don't have a good way to flag items as already belonging to the master.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Fix issues where the master will not notice you pick pocketing large items, but will notice an attempt on the key.

That's a game engine issue. You can steal someone's pants as they are wearing them if you are good enough.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Fix issues where it is almost impossible to escape creature enslavements because the creature will never get rid of you, nothing aggros against them so they never die, and in the rare case something does aggro, they kill it. This is particularly obvious with Falmer - who can, in some cases, even kill dragons. Creatures need to get bored of you after a week or so, so that these really tedious and mind-numbing enslavements can end.

There is already an 'end game' scenario for that kind of situation but it is not working properly. 

A creature master is supposed to take you somewhere near Markarth but that has been broken for a while and I never got around to investigating why (this is one of those mind numbing endless tests situations I mentioned before).

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• Fix issues where townsfolk becomes non-hostile to creatures like Falmer and trolls just because they are your SD+ master.
• Fix issues where Falmer and trolls will enter towns (and patrolled hold lands).
• Fix issues where townsfolk, guards, farmers, etc, become non-hostile to creatures, bandits or vampires, just because they are your SD+ master.

I agree.. that has been bothering me for a while too.

The exception is for Bandits.. I could look into a chance for a bandit to have a bounty on them.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

• If you are enslaved by bandits, after a time, you should either be ransomed, rescued, or given a bounty (the latter to stop you dragging the bandit into town). CCAS gives bounties when enslaved by bandits because the bandits deliberately smear your reputation, to stop you running away. It shouldn't really be the norm that you end bandit enslavement by sheer boredom (time out).
• If you "end" enslavement to bandits by staying friends, you could be given a bounty.
• If a bandit sells you to a non-bandit, any bounty should be cleared and reinstated when you are freed.
• If you rob your master's faction buddies, you should (probably) be punished.
• If you attack your master's faction buddies, it should be punished more strictly.

Good points, although I would have to limit it to a few known vanilla Bandit factions. That would be a problem with bandits introduced by other mods.

 

 

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Also, Sex Slaves style features that would work, and require minimal changes to add:

• belted for sex with non-permitted partners - master removes (and replaces) belt to satisfy his own needs
• required to wear decorative plugs for master's entertainment
• required to wear other humiliating outfit parts for master's entertainment (cat/bunny ears, nipple piercings - yes I know Sanguine has piercings) etc.
• spanking as a punishment

These are all planned tasks and punishments I haven't implemented yet.

One task already implemented along those lines is the master forcing you to wear training plugs.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

What I mean about the main quest, is that at the current "end", the events are hard to understand; particularly the actual relevance of the NPC added to the dreamworld.

It just needs some dialog additions to explain it for dummies like me. I really can't make much sense of the existing explanations, despite their length.

Also, it would be nice if there was some small but meaningful gameplay change from that point onward.

For example, Succubus mechanics, or ability to enter the Dreamworld "on purpose" when sleeping, even if enslaved. Yes, I know there's already succubus functionality, but it could extend that with another feature or power. Currently, succubus functionality has no real downside, and the upside is kind of patchy in terms of what skills it gives.

Or, well... anything to make you feel that something had changed about your existence.

That is what I have in mind for the completion of the main quest: full explanation and perks for being Sanguine's helper.

Going to Dreamworld on purpose is one of the perks I am planning. There will be others.

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

Obviously, I'm not expecting all of that, or exactly that, or TBH, anything at all.

But...

I think anything off the above list would be a big deal.

The March release was mostly about finishing the SexBot quest in SexLab Stories, and releasing all the fixed I worked on since last November.

 

I am hoping to develop enough in April for another release. I am currently testing the Mage quest in Dialogues and bringing my character up through the SD+ quest to work on the later stages.

[Lupine00]

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

That's already done. There is a piece of evidence inside the Brewery and a way to get to the shrine without having to use the locked door from the Thieve's Guild.

Ah. That's great. Last I asked about this, the answer I got was "do Thieves' Guild" - I have a mod specially to stop me doing Thieves' Guild  

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

If you build up enough disposition with a master (through a lot of sex if need be), you will have a few hours every day to wander around with your master in tow. 

In theory. For me, it usually goes more like this...

"That's enough out of you." (You must not bother the master for X hours).

"Find me a shrubbery! One that looks nice! And not *too* expensive!" (Player groans in hopelessness).

Master invents five reasons to hate you and your score drops several more points, from -2 where it started, now down to minus seventy-billion ...

So you can't offer sex, because that's against one rule, and you can't find a shrubbery because Roger the Shrubber is not resident in your little sub-section of Mistvale.

 

The master gets increasingly annoyed about one failure or another, so you never have any free-wander time. If you do, it merely gets you out of the gate of Mistvale into a vile swamp full of wolves that try to eat you. Your master runs out of range to kill a wolf while you're bleeding on the ground, then blames you for being too far away and more -ve points. There's nothing to find in the swamp except wolf pelts, raw wolf meat, flowers, and really-nasty parasite-infestations. And so on...

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

You can also ask your master for food.  There is a chance food will be added to their inventory if they don't have anything to give.

Ration yourself and give them back the food they gave you as a sign of obedience and frugality.

I am aware of this "exploit" but it seems exploity. In other dialogue the master rages about your frivolous demands for food/water. In this case you are making frivolous demands then rubbing it in his face.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

These are good suggestions and I created an entry on Github for them.

I earlier proposed a "universal" solution for these issues, which I still keep hoping to find time to implement for myself, as it requires no dependencies on SD+

 

While enslaved, it would give a modest chance of an empty container adding "items of interest to SD+ masters" on a relatively short cool down, so if you re-check all the containers often enough, magically you find some food, or magic mushrooms, ale, or whatever it is he wants today. This is far more performant than scanning the cell and all its containers and assessing what is actually in them because it simply hooks of the same kind of mechanic that drives DCL with a Perk and an OnOpen event. We don't really need to know what's there, we just need to handle empty containers and sometimes make there be something in them again... Something that masters might like.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

That's my current priority for SD+. 

That's why it surprised me when you did something else  I don't recall if the sexbot was a top-voted item when people voted on what they wanted updating in stories. For me, the top items are "make milk farm work properly" and Red Wave. (I think milk farm only works if you have Hormones, otherwise you never produce milk it accepts. When I use MME, which claims to work with it, it never recognizes the milk). Also, I can never complete the "milk my cows" task, despite milking them ... a lot.

 

Will the new enhancements to Elle work with the CCAS start? That would spice that start up considerably.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

What do you mean by 'fragile'? I didn't find issues with it in my tests.

For whatever reason, either the dialog doesn't show up, or shows up once or twice then vanishes never to be seen ever again.

Most games it doesn't show up. Some it shows up and vanishes. Other approaches to inducing sex or dancing don't seem to please the master at all.

Rarely, something seems to work. TBH, it works so little I'm not sure how it's supposed to be working now.

I assume I'm supposed to dance, but triggering it via spell/power does not seem to provoke any reaction from the master at all.

This also gets offered while in an armbinder, which makes the dance look a bit off. The power shouldn't work while in heavy bondage.

I can reliably offer sex to creatures, but humans ... sometimes the dialog tree for that just ... ceases to exist.

It's not a problem I have with other mods, so I'm guessing there's something SL Dialoges/SD+ specific involved in it.

I'm guessing a dialog quest crashes out and halts?

Maybe this is just me, but it has been a pattern for many varied LO's and setups that are otherwise solid.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

You can use Dialogues to beg for money (I'm poor...) or offer your services from anyone (Please.. can I entertain you?).

For more elaborate options I am relying on people using their favorite mod for porstitution instead of creating yet another full prostitution mod.

I've found in most cases, where I try and prostitute via SL Dialogues, it either results in unpaid rape, NPC refusal, or rage from the master.

Details below...

Spoiler

I have some issues trying to use RP with SD+, because RP really is innkeeper-centric.

SWL is full of gibberish dialog and is very "soft" - it doesn't fit well dialog wise.

TDF is more for player-pimps.

So, that leaves the DCL solicitation, but I don't have DCL in most of my games, and I find its solicitation has many issues - it can causes weird game slowdowns, and it will leave you stuck in an armbinder the master seems not to appreciate exists, even when generous customers are disabled entirely.

 

RP is the only mod that really works for my games in general, but doesn't really work for SD+.

If the master had RP-compatible dialogs, I guess it could work. I could probably make my own patch. I should probably look at that.

 

What I'm getting at here is that SD+ doesn't play very nicely with the existing prostitution mods, so maybe that's an area where a single "approved" integration could help? Or put that functionality in SL Dialogues? Or, when some random mod (or SD+ itself) triggers a gang-rape, have the master demand cash from the perpetrators after the fact like the money grubbing weasel he is.

 

It seems the master should prevent the "free" rapes that the NPCs perform, if the master is trying to use you to make money, when they rape you, they are robbing him, but he doesn't see it that way at all.

 

Another thing is that offering yourself for sex to profit your master is immersively/in-character, really soul-crushing and humiliating, and ought to tie more into your stats. It's a major area where you could "push back" and resist, and where you can also capitulate. For a high-level slave it might be hard to resist just doing it out of habit.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

That's another hard thing to do. I don't have a good way to flag items as already belonging to the master.

I think this, and the other issue I raised below relate to pick pocketing the master in general.

Tagging items isn't necessary, and can never be a universal solution.

Details below...

Spoiler

Currently, I believe there is code to detect you trying to pick pocket the key.

It seems fair to extend master vigilance to other items he carries.

There are a host of issues around master inventory, both clogging and recycling...

Masters will not empty out heavy items like full sets of armor - they can't eat or drink them - they will just sit there.

 

It seems the safest course is to remove all player "gifts" at the point of detection and scoring and put them in a simple StorageUtil list, or different (hidden) container. The master can then search that container for food/drink to consume, keeping the immersive nature of that intact. You could even cache the food/drink reserves separately for performance.

 

In many ways, a pair of StorageUtil lists (one for formID and one for count) are a much better way to store balance-sheet-items than a container, because they can be traversed very efficiently, are actor specific for free, and have no "Skyrim engine overhead" to speak of.

 

Hook when the master inventory is opened (you probably already do), and do a check immediately. If the check passes, the PC can pick pocket, if it fails, instant punishment. This could protect the key in the same way as other items. Handling the case where the player races the event and gets the key before you can punish them can be handled by a secondary check.

 

General inventory handling solves the "game engine issue" of pick pocketing somebody's pants. Which I like to do the the master's buddies. I take their weapons, and then anything else they own. The master soon gets full up with such heavy gifts. Maybe robbing others is fine, but the master is clearly hyper-vigilant about pick pocketing.

 

I can get punished for having the weapons even though I try to gift them.

 

Another possibility is a pop-up that offers the PC a chance to try and pick pocket after sex with the master. SWL already produces such a popup.

 

The chance of detection could vary with master personality. To balance things a bit, could make the really nasty personalities more cocky that you can't possibly rob them, so they are easier to pick pocket and escape from, because ... let's face it ... you need to escape those guys or they will kill you.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

There is already an 'end game' scenario for that kind of situation but it is not working properly. 

A creature master is supposed to take you somewhere near Markarth but that has been broken for a while and I never got around to investigating why (this is one of those mind numbing endless tests situations I mentioned before).

We all know that you can't trust Skyrim pathing to take an NPC anywhere.

With PoP, I can use leash tugging to break most serious issues. But PoP usually only paths from one well known location to another well known location, and even then it screws up. A lot.

Details below...

Spoiler

With SD+ I often hit the "dead end" pathing problem:

 

NPC wanders a certain way and hits a dead end. There is (for example) a river in the way. Or a drop they refuse to walk off... If I lead them away from that place, they constantly try to wander back. The only way to deal with the NPC's obsession to try and cross the uncrossable gap is to run across the gap, then teleport the NPC to you. This usually gets you punished while you're doing it (for being too far from master while you perform the port).

 

Relying on pathing to end creature enslavement is just going to doom the PC. Creature enslavement is incredibly dull. They never refuse sex, and you've basically got two options, sex and presents, and they don't even make weird demands like human NPCs.

 

The only way it can be tolerable is if the creature-master has a short boredom threshold as the PC and simply loses interest in them after a few days.

This is a non-trivial, basic playability concern. There is so little capability to shed creature-masters. The only thing that will attack them that can kill them is a dragon, and dragons can be hard to find. In some cases the dragon loses. 

 

After a month enslaved to a frost troll, starving in a cave, half-way to High Hrothgar, you really come to appreciate how repetitive it is. If you recall correctly, it took me that in-game time to finally get the troll to follow me far enough to meet something it couldn't kill? The troll killed one dragon (tragically, other trolls came to assist it) before a second managed to do for it, and even that was touch and go.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

The exception is for Bandits.. I could look into a chance for a bandit to have a bounty on them.

Sure that's fair, but a bandit with no bounty shouldn't act so much like a bandit when in town.

It's a bit of a give away when they start talking about their bandit life to everyone that will listen!

Details below...

Spoiler

Also, when a master does take you into a town (which is fairly rare, unless you started in one) they don't really take advantage of your earning potential.

For example, they will put you in an armbinder, then expect you to get things for them.

If you're caught stealing, the master has no awareness of it, doesn't pay your fine, and is quite confused about you being in prison.

It comes back to issues with the core task system having no locational awareness no context for master type beyond personality, etc. and not much support for enabling completion of tasks of the consequences of attempting them.

 

e.g.

You try to prostitute yourself - you get raped - the master thinks it's cool. He just lost 50 gold.

You try to rob someone - get caught, get arrested - the master is mad that you are out of range and your collar tries to kill you.

(This used to happen). You're in an inn. The master asks for food/drink, but you are gagged. Everything you pick up vanishes and you can't gift it.

The master asks you fetch stuff while in slave boots and mittens. The stuff is out of range. You can't pick it up anyway.

You're in an arm-binder or yoke, the master wants you to dance.

 

Sure, I know you know.

 

I guess my theory here is that there aren't multiple problems, there is one problem.

The same problem runs through all of "conflicted master behavior".

The unreasonable requests are not the cause, they simply exacerbate the core problem.

 

Changes to how you get punished have improved the situation, as have changes to how you get rewarded.

Things are much more playable than they were three years ago.

 

My gut-feeling is that the "trust" / "distance" / "time" mechanic is the main problem.

It's a hold-over from trying to get leash-like behavior without the leash.

 

Going out of range need not reduce trust. The PC often cannot control this. It's unfair and annoying that you can lose hours of effort in a minute, just because the game decided to move you, or the master, or you went through a door and the master was slow to follow.

 

At the least, trust losses from out-of-range scenario could be capped at a modest amount.

 

• Attacking the master should reduce trust.
• Trying to rob the master should reduce trust.
• Going out of range - while the master is sleeping - could reduce trust. (Presumably this can be cage-aware for SD cages, so a caged slave can't lose trust).
• Anything range-related while the master is awake, should not reduce trust.
• Masters should demand different stuff when "at home" and when travelling, but they should never hard-stop you travelling.

 

I get this was done to allow removal of the leash, which had its own problems, but it's more than enough to punish "out of range" with shocks.

Not all masters fit a collar that does that. Oddly creatures always do (in my experience). I don't know where they get them  

If creatures can fit that collar, it's fair that all masters can.

More details below...

Spoiler

Maybe hard stops on wandering away from the master could be an option, but not a default?

 

Making that one change puts an end to the "three weeks of wall-staring" problem that afflicts many SD+ slaveries.

 

It should be possible to drag the master about, after an initial induction period - almost right away - as long as the master is awake.

And as long as you didn't disable it in the MCM.

 

 

Sleep escapes are another matter entirely:

 

It should be possible to run off while the master sleeps, only to find that:

1) you get shocked into helplessness and must crawl back

2) the master tracks you down (by teleport) when he wakes up and punishes you for running off.

 

It almost works like this now, but not quite.

 

 

So, the core issue is that SD+ considers escape to be a sliding scale, gradually (but rather rapidly) punished.

It doesn't have to be. Make escape attempts a simple binary.

You attempt or you do not attempt...

 

Recognition is clear - IF - you make it so escape can only be attempted while the master is sleeping. Anything else is just ... out of position ... which is different.

 

Escape detection can be made very clear-cut by binding it to:

• out of range only while master is sleeping
• collar removal

 

If you remove that collar, you are "escaping" not "escaped".

 

 

Sure, you can have a sliding scale, but it's not better gameplay, and it doesn't work especially well as is.

 

Collar handling is a bit of a mix of old and new mechanics that don't mesh perfectly with a single clear design intent now.

 

 

Imagine the master gets in a fight... You run away as fast as possible.

Did you try to escape?

 

Assuming the master is not dead when the fight is over, he can reasonably assume you simply ran in fear.

He quickly catches up to you. You were never going to get away. It's a non-problem. There was no escape.

It happens like that now, but you will also lose some trust.

In practice it's better to hang around and hope he dies so you can loot the key.

 

If the master lives, he can quickly track you down, re-collar you as an escaped slave and make you his again.

 

If you do not remove the collar, you are just "out of position". That might be punishable, but it shouldn't destroy trust.

For example, one classic "out of position" is being in prison.

That probably needs special recognition so the master isn't ported in there, but on release, he'll be there waiting for you.

In the meantime, you shouldn't be shocked to death.

DiD defeat ports are another issue... But I guess you assume people are using DA+Defeat, not DiD?

 

 

I don't see a mechanical need for "range based escape" to be given much attention.

 

Personally, I'd say that a playable-race master might never give up, whether you remove the collar or not.

After all, he can soon put another collar on you!

Either he catches up quickly, or he catches up ... later ... or he loses interest.

Maybe he doesn't care and never follows?

It would depend on the master, not a shared range mechanic.

Think how much fun it is to be waylaid by bandit you thought you got away from?

You wake up in Candlehearth Hall, to discover yourself collared again, and there he is gloating.

Expect some serious punishments  and loss of trust THEN.

 

Escape a master by removing the collar with the key and running off ... fine ... but if he lives he should at least have a chance to come after you.

Master personality would be the key factor here.

Some masters would never let go. Others would move on immediately.

You could make escape easier again given this, instead of making pick-pocket all but impossible.

 

Also, the kind of master should make a difference. If you were enslaved to a townsperson, they would consider your escape "theft".

You'd get a bounty. If caught in town you'd be returned to your master on leaving prison.

They might send bounty hunters to get you. (Perhaps PoP could be leveraged?)

 

Enslaved to a bandit, they'd hunt you down themselves.

 

For a creature, avoid them for long enough and they lose interest.

If you enter a town, you're free. Really. It should be that easy, because creature enslavement should never be allowed to drag on.

 

I wouldn't even have creatures like trolls fit collars. It's a bit much to expect every troll to have a collar stashed away.

Go too far from the troll, it either follows, doesn't care and lets you go, or it rushes you, knocks you down, rapes you, then drags you back to its cave again.

 

I'd love a pregnancy mechanic for trolls, so if you get pregnant, the troll loses interest in you.

 

As for Falmer enslavement, that needs its own mod  Ah, but it already has one... (Things in the Dark).

 

If the Broodmaiden stuff comes along, then that would be a great addition. Once you've had chaurus, you never go back!

No need for a collar, or SD+ rules... They just lock you in the pen with the stud and let nature take it's course. 

After that... You make yourself the prisoner.

 

I have a soft-spot for the existence of creature slavery, but currently I simply cannot use it.

If I get in a creature enslavement, it's quit and reload time. I've been through it enough times to know it has no escape and gets boring very fast.

 

However, it should exist in some form. I see it as an escape hazard. At the point you escape your bandit/orc/forsworn masters, you make a run for it in the wilderness, usually naked, and probably partially bound.

 

At that point creatures attack. You should be helpless to fight them. Instead of dying, creature enslavement is a practical possibility.

Roll over and submit, and hope to live. Bide your time. Escape.

The problem right now is that escape is not an option.

Creatures add a magic coercion collar and become friendly to almost everything you would reasonable expect to kill them.

They also become accepted in towns and cities. You can't kill them, nothing else will kill them, and you can't get the key.

It's a problem that makes the feature unusuable.

For 'leash like' behavior - as an OPTION, for some masters, in some cases - why not simply bring back the actual leash using the existing PoP implementation? I don't have much trouble with it in PoP.

 

It could be an option, situational, personality-linked, or a punishment, or a low-trust possibility, or all of those.

As a high slave rank, you might sometimes crave it.

 

Some people loved the old leash. It was a must have "thing" for them, and it's a big part of why they use PoP now.

Leashes do have problems. The old leash could result in you getting snagged by the least-distance trsp but the existing distance issues aren't that much better, if at all.

 

Also, the port-to-master key almost completely removed issues with leash-jam.

 

OTOH, the existing trust loss from distance fails almost every time you go through a load-door.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

I would have to limit it to a few known vanilla Bandit factions. That would be a problem with bandits introduced by other mods.

Awesome. That would be totally fine with me

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

One task already implemented along those lines is the master forcing you to wear training plugs.

It was awareness of the plug mechanic which made me think of a few extensions to that.

The training plug item is sort-of weak sauce though  It would be more fun if it was a hardcore edging plug.

I guess I could tweak that in my Tes5Edit merging easily enough.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

That is what I have in mind for the completion of the main quest: full explanation and perks for being Sanguine's helper.

Going to Dreamworld on purpose is one of the perks I am planning. There will be others.

Yay! I know it might be a long time before we see all of that... Just patching up the existing state a little to tide us over is what I was suggesting.

 

[Lupine00]

So, as that last post got up to my usual size, I'll sum it up really quickly here...

 

If we let the PC wander, after an initial period, regardless of trust, then most of the problems with tasks, load-doors, collar-zapping and so-on disappear.

 

If trust is only lost due to very clearly defined escape attempts, that don't take much notice of distance, then escape can be dealt with more decisively.

 

What would trust mean in that context?

 

Trust would still have the meaning of time you are allowed to be away from the master to do things.

 

A possible implementation of this would be as follows:

 

a) impose a lower limit on trust that is not very low: -24 for example. Let the player configure it?

b) (almost) always allow the PC to wander and cause the master to follow without complaint, if the master is awake

c) the PC slave must ask the master to begin time away. This starts the clock. The master settles in place. There is no range limit while on the clock.

d) the PC slave must report to the master and ask to end time away. This stops the clock. The master begins following again. If the clock runs out, the clock is stopped.

e) if the PC wanders out of range while the master is awake, the master just "catches up" makes a minor admonishment and that's it.

f) if the PC wanders out of range while the master is asleep...

 - the master may wake up prematurely

 - the master quickly "catches up" to the slave

 - it's considered an escape attempt, trust is reset to the lower cap (e.g. -24) and the slave is punished for escaping.

g) removal of collar is no longer escape, it's an escape attempt. If the master is able they will re-collar and punish. Collar removal simply confirms the attempt to escape is real.

h) slaves who mysteriously end up far from the master, including clock run-outs, are handled under (e) and (f).

i) collar removal and key theft should be easier than they are now because they are merely a pre-requisite for escape, not escape.

j) creatures usually should not collar.

k) entering a town should be considered escape from creatures. Creatures should abandon you if you enter a town.

l) low trust slaves would likely be kept booted and naked to stop them running. The master should have a boot key if so.

m) slaves that try to escape would likely be blindfolded or hooded as well. Again, master should have appropriate keys.

n) collar would still incapacitate slaves who are not checked out and within their time allowances.

o) prison, should be handled "harmlessly", and master should collect slave on release, with only minor punishment.

p) static masters may hobble slaves, mobile wandering masters will stick to boots only.

q) masters will remove bondage items they didn't add - on request - unless marked Quest or BlockGeneric.

 

Regarding (e) and (f):

Pursuit of far away slaves could - possibly - be determined by master factions, personality type, and other factors, but in most cases there would be pursuit.

It might take a few days for the master to catch up, if the slave is far away.

It would be reasonable for the master to bring friends to help recapture an escaped slave.

If the PC goes into an area hostile to the NPCs, they may simply delay their attempt to recapture until the PC enters wilderness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Most of the changes are modest. Some not so modest. Also, there are quite a lot of small details.

I'm not saying it's exactly trivial, but it's a lot, lot less complex and achievable than trying to make all tasks and demands context-aware.

 

 

The question is, would this be a better way for SD+ to work than the current situation?

Or, do people consider the need to build trust to be allowed to wander a core feature?

 

 

Currently, I believe you have to built up trust to be followed rather than led, but often cannot build trust without being allowed to wander.

It's Catch-22. You cannot progress. Your trust slowly trickles away.

Changes have reduced this, but it's still an underlying pattern.

 

 

Being led, does not really work, and probably never will - outside certain well defined paths - due to Skyrim pathing being bugged.

Many NPCs are static by nature and are travel averse, the trap the PC in a single small area that may not even be survivable.

(For example, NPCs who rarely leave outdoor furniture in cold areas except to sleep).

 

 

If there were some things I think are fairly trivial, and would make a big difference its these:

 

a) impose a lower limit on trust that is not very low: -24 for example. Let the player configure it?

j) creatures usually should not collar.

k) entering a town should be considered escape from creatures. Creatures should abandon you if you enter a town.

 

[Deimos]

I dont know what I did wrong, but so far enslavement is completely broken the npc that enslaves is no longer hostile but the rest still are, also the falmer fungus no longer works as it did ( no messages, no hair loss, no skin color change)  I have the other mods that work in conjunction with this and they appear fine, with the exception of the falmer growth hormones which just make the screen extremely blurry to the point I cant see or play.

 

Update I tested with bandits and trolls, and so far they seem to work like normal but falmer seem to be the broken ones.  I noticed when enslaved DFW (Devious framework) would fire with master is, but for falmer it said none same with chaurus.

 

Another Update after further testing it appears that the faction for falmer isnt being added to the player, so the master is neutral but his allies arent.

[stobor]

Something seems to be breaking visits to Dreamworld in the latest release; even if I sleep in front of the shrine, the log trace for the event ends with 'OnSleep Event failed'.  If I read the script logic (_sdras_dreamer) correctly, that suggests that the new check to prevent multiple visits per day is preventing the visit - because every other criterion is met.

 

Thing is, this is the first visit.  The days-passed check isn't actually counting from prior visits - just from prior checks.

 

Going back to a really early save (before ever sleeping at all), I can get Dreamworld to work.  After that, no dice.

[Sospice]

I've advanced the quest to the point where you have 3 options to chose with sanguine. 

one is accept your true nature, the 2nd chose to serve sanguine and grow in power, and the 3rd is lie and look for a way to escape. 

Could you tell me where these 3 choices lead to? I tried the 3rd and wasn't sure what to do next. 

I did notice that there's a clone of my character in the dreamworld throne area that occasionally insults me. I tried killing her and I get a mini quest with a pop up dialogue that tells me I have to go to tolfider to pay 250 gold to lift my suspension. I did that but it doesn't seem like anything happens after that. 

[DeepBlueFrog]

13 hours ago, Sospice said:

I've advanced the quest to the point where you have 3 options to chose with sanguine. 

one is accept your true nature, the 2nd chose to serve sanguine and grow in power, and the 3rd is lie and look for a way to escape. 

Could you tell me where these 3 choices lead to? I tried the 3rd and wasn't sure what to do next. 

I did notice that there's a clone of my character in the dreamworld throne area that occasionally insults me. I tried killing her and I get a mini quest with a pop up dialogue that tells me I have to go to tolfider to pay 250 gold to lift my suspension. I did that but it doesn't seem like anything happens after that. 

That's all there is to it right now. I am still working on finishing these 3 quests.

 

What happens when you kill your clone is surprising and totally an accident. I will have to make the clone essential as it is not supposed to be killed.

[Sospice]

4 hours ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

That's all there is to it right now. I am still working on finishing these 3 quests.

 

What happens when you kill your clone is surprising and totally an accident. I will have to make the clone essential as it is not supposed to be killed.

Oh, okay. I thought the clone insulting my character was a role playing element; you're supposed to get angry and kill it.

[DeepBlueFrog]

3 hours ago, Sospice said:

Oh, okay. I thought the clone insulting my character was a role playing element; you're supposed to get angry and kill it.

I should probably make it silent too

[Balgin]

26 minutes ago, DeepBlueFrog said:

I should probably make it silent too

Someone actually killed the clone? Don't tell me, the game bugged out and made the original character immediately die too. Personally I need to make a note to not have hdt hair when the clone is created (otherwise it does crazy graphics things that are just wrong).

[pnutz78]

Hi Blue,

 

I first of all wanted to thank you for all of your fantastic mods. Have been playing them for years and tremendously enjoyed them. I do have a question/ suggestion for you regarding this mod specifically:

The two elements I am looking for is really the extensive use of devious devices and go questing with my master. Regarding the first feature, while there are some devices that your master adds as part of his/ her fetishes it is very light. Would love to see regular tasks that are catered to specific themes: being a pony, rusty Iron harness, petsuit, rope bondage, ebonite restrictive sets, rubber suits- the works. Currently I use Devious Cused Loot to strip the collar auto equipped by my master and then use a mod explorer to give myself exactly the kind of items I want from DDE- a little cumbersome. Also a small observation: since DDI now supports animation filters for restraint animations (specific for armbinders, yokes, petsuits etc.) would be nice if the sex animation in SD would make use of these as opposed to either stripping the restraint or using any vanilla animation despite the restraint. Would be really interested what your thoughts/ roadmap on this topic is.

The second part is going truly questing with your master after you have been broken in as a Slave. Now there are several mods out there that try to accomplish this: Devious Followers, Dominant Follower (Cursed Loot) and Sanguine. I tried to used the first two and did not enjoy the gameplay experience as you would either have to prod the mod to heavily to get to the right state of device usage or the mod would equip you with items or colliding rules that make regular questing impossible. I think Sanguine has the best basis for allowing this kind of follower play but it seems not fully supported today. I basically have to make a regular follower my master- which works (although I would like to go questing with a random NPC :-)). Once your follower becomes your master, he/ she joins a bandit faction and I no longer get aggro from any bandits- which is a problem for questing. Not sure if this can be resolved by staying a slave to your master- when you get that choice or if you have to pick a particular option to support this kind of game play. Any advice on this would be much appreciated and insights into your future plans on supporting master follower gameplay with random npcs in the future.

 

Again your work is absolutely fantastic-pleeeease keep it up! Btw do you have a patreon page or something like that?