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Quick question guys - is it normal that these mods cause save files to become quite large?

 

I've never had an issue with save file size, but suddenly quicksaves are taking a few seconds to process and when i checked the size they are coming in at 20mb.

 

Normal?

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Hey, all, I could use some assistance.

 

I really love xp32's HDTPhysX-Havok Ponytail hair.  But, I play as a male character, so I really want to give it to my primary follower, Vilja.  I tried for hours yesterday, but was unsuccessful.  If anyone knows how to achieve this, I'd really appreciate it.

 

Here is what I have attempted so far.  I should start by saying that I have moderate skill with TES modding, but absolutely zero knowledge of 3d modeling.  I should also mention that I got the original hairstyle mod to work perfectly on a newly created female character, so everything is installed correctly.

 

So, to begin, I converted xp32's hair mod into an ESM via TES5Edit and created an add-on plug-in to change Vilja's hairstyle to the HDT ponytail.

It worked (kinda) - Vilja had the hair and it bounced around, but it had the classic facetint bug you get from changing NPC's:

 

post-174555-0-15542600-1384231443_thumb.jpg

 

 

 

So, I did the classic workaround and exported the facegendata. This fixes her face tint, but destroys the hair, sending it off into oblivion:

 

post-174555-0-50116100-1384231456_thumb.jpg

 

I should also note that, during the export process, the Creation Kit gave me a warning/error about the .tri file not containing any morphs. I ignored it and let it export.

 

Now, I assumed this is due to losing the necessary havok information. Again, I have no 3d modeling knowledge, but I saw Vioxsis's tutorial a ways back, and it seemed to be pretty easy to follow, so I gave it a shot. I downloaded Nifskope, and I added the two havok path's to the newly created facegen .nif (Data\meshes\actors\character\facegendata\facegeom\EMCompViljaSkyrim.esp\00000d67.nif):

post-174555-0-34385500-1384231467_thumb.png

post-174555-0-28662800-1384231475_thumb.png

 

 

 

However, the hair-to-infinity problem still persists.  So, now I'm out of ideas, and I'd love to hear you guys' thoughts on this.  Thanks in advance.

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Well, I have tried the 11-11 version with XP32 skeleton and Demonhunter's version 3 sevenbase TBBP. I realize not everyone can get this to work, but to me this is the definitive edition of HDT physics.

 

Not only can we now modify the motors to increase the range and intensity of the shake, the sway AND the bounce, but FINALLY we have a version of physics where the motion does not stop or diminish!! My toon is walking around with her funbags rolling around on her ribs while slightly bobbing, each independently of the other and with separate rotations. When I run, it gets even better, as the animation seed is the original TBBP run animation. The breasts bounce forcefully and sway as the the torso twists during the run, and there is also some rolling at the nipple area. Never do these animations lessen or disappear while I am walking and running in a straight line. Obviously if I turn or climb stairs or a hill, even more movement ensues!

 

For ass lovers out there if you have a nice meaty butt on your toon there is some nice motion. Also, when attaching physics to the body files directly, even though the idle animation plays nicely, the boobs 'hit' each other while walking and running....greatly reducing the movement. I love the idea of collision and deformation of softbodies, but if I have to sacrifice beautiful motion I'd rather leave it in the archives.

 

What all have you discovered in the xml? I only figured out a few things. What do you have that I can add to the docs?

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Inertia tensor is defined as mr2, so it's effect by both mass and volume.Maybe it's not because of too light but cause by too small.

Maybe "Scale Inertia Tensor" will help :).The higher the angular velocity change slower.

for damping, 1.0 is not recommend. However you can set a value nearby 1.0 (0.99 etc, I use 0.8 in NPRChinaDress)

restitution only used when two object hit.

About inertiaAndMassInv , it's not mass, it's inverse mass(1/mass) and inverse inertia(1/inertia)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertia_tensor

 

and about #1075, it happened when I change the length unit from skyrim to realworld(meter) and fit the scaling on bones.

 

OK, somehow I understand lot of it but at the same time it reach me that I have to make "precise" settings to make everything what I want. Just simple miss value will got error. What I'm talking about error is if a rigid body is too close to each other/touch each other surface, they will "shake"... even if No movement/momentum at all from whatsoever 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physics_engine#Limitations

 

I dunno why but seems your previous version (when you said you were wrong about inertia thing) kill this "error".

 

With the latest version, I play a lot with all value (from zero to something and various combinations of it) Resulting that actually.. my settings for the previous version also the best one for this latest version BUT latest version will show me an unwanted effect from my un precise settings for the ragdoll. THE RIGID BODY SHAKE like what I said earlier. This not only happen when they too close, but also when to rigid bodies that constrained each other are moving...this things also happen to affect its child which making some unwanted force (remember I said about the velocity works 2x to 4x.. limiting the value for the velocity do no help).

-Mass, not sure but increasing to 8 from 2 doesn't help, in fact it made it looks like the tip of pony tail is tying with something "really heavy".  Have tried another number but also same

-Turning off Spring damper (motor) is out of the question, have it off and it going "wild"

-Damping value, whether I set 0,8 to 1.0 doesn't give much any differences.. disabling it does and not a good one

-Just turn on the inertia tensor scale and made little change for will give me good for nothing. Disable as usual save me from it.

-Restitution, the only things that have same effect from previous version

-Frictions, changing this doesn't help. It help only If I change mass to match it. So, same as previous version 

 

One thing that I haven't tried is changing the rigid volume and shape but it will go to "infinite" options since I never have a single tutorial to simulate hair bone with ragdolls from HCT

 

In other words, I would still prefer the previous version.. even if that is not how the real "physics" things works but it gave us lot of easier to see the result in game without making precise calculation/settings..I give up on matching with latest version ( for simulate hair) since I my self is not physics engineer or something. Just happen to be a person that have leisure times. 

 

I hope to see the solutions.. Even if not.. still grateful for all of this work

 

 

 

Try this xml pls!~

the only thing I do is multiply all inertia tensor by 10

and set linear damping to 0.9,

and cancel pre-stablization while exporting(choose "create constraints" on the middle and cancel it on the right. It's very important!!!).

MomijiMiko.xml

 

and maually set inertia to 100 and mass to 1:

MomijiMiko.xml

look much more like cloth

 

and a suggestion :

low down the "bone per vertex" to 4 at advanced options on skin modifier before exporting, or it will cause some display issue.

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Okay, the sleeves works as intended (even better) :D  and the key for that should be this line  :exclamation:

<hkparam name="inertiaAndMassInv">(0.010000 0.010000 0.010000 1.000000)</hkparam>

manual one eh.. as long as it work then it worth it. Gonna try this method with the hair xml rightly

 One question though, what do you mean by multiply all inertia tensor by 10. Does this thing also manual or picture below does the justice to control it? If it not manual then which one that I have to multiply by 10 ? Thanks again :blush:  :P  

As for "bone per vertex", I found it called as "bone affect limit" (3dsMax) and set by default to 4

13849165.jpg

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I have a problem where the hair sticks up. At first this mod was working fine for me, then I went exploring in caves, so a couple of new grids were loaded, then when I got outside, my hair was resting on air. At first I thought it was sitting on my bow, but when I removed my bow, the hair remained in the same place, no longer moving. Does anyone know why? Great mod by the way :)

 

Edit - Found out that if I load a new area, the hair freezes in place.

 

Edit 2 - I think it has stopped now, I just re-installed the mod.

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Okay, the sleeves works as intended (even better) :D  and the key for that should be this line  :exclamation:

<hkparam name="inertiaAndMassInv">(0.010000 0.010000 0.010000 1.000000)</hkparam>

manual one eh.. as long as it work then it worth it. Gonna try this method with the hair xml rightly

 One question though, what do you mean by multiply all inertia tensor by 10. Does this thing also manual or picture below does the justice to control it? If it not manual then which one that I have to multiply by 10 ? Thanks again :blush:  :P  

As for "bone per vertex", I found it called as "bone affect limit" (3dsMax) and set by default to 4

13849165.jpg

 

post-100850-0-50976400-1384245550.jpg

and the first one is manually set ← It's wrong just ignore that. It's manually set center of mass

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Quick question guys - is it normal that these mods cause save files to become quite large?

 

I've never had an issue with save file size, but suddenly quicksaves are taking a few seconds to process and when i checked the size they are coming in at 20mb.

 

Normal?

 

It's not normal, bloated save file usually tells there's something messed up and the game/mod stores too much information. Usually script-based ones tend to to that, if I remember correctly. My game save files are usually about 6,5mb (save number 250, level 26, ~40 mods via mod managed and manual installation, 7-22 v of HDT, also many script-based mods).

 

Also quick question, off topic... halp, why my avatar is black...

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Okay, Here is the File for latest HDT version, Thanks for Hydro to enlighten me in this matter. The effect might be different from before, and still finding the best one to look like from previous.

 

For Build Havok-HDT v11.11

 

Momiji Miko 

HDTPhysX Momiji Miko v02-11.7z

 

Ponytail Hair 

Ponytail for HDTphyscis extension_11.7z

 

@Hydro

the same method is not working for the hair. By using that value 0.01-0.01-0.01 and 1.0 for inertia and mass to all rigid bodies make the motions a bit strange. It almost as "torque" effect (have trying how it looks when I mess with torque and seems not applicable for soft thing) is added to the ragdoll and not very smooth one..

 

After some search, seems each time the branch is extended, I have to add certain value that multiplied following to the end rear. By doing this, I got similar effect from the previous version (before the HDT 11.11) but "errors" about unstable rigid (remember when rigid touch each other surface) is still happen but at very very minor detail and need to wait long for it to occur.. In other words.. got minimize the "errors"

 

The formula almost like this (in raw, but not sure and this just my guess)

I1= a+bn ;I2= 1/3a+bn ;I3= 1/3a+bn ; This formula apply from the start/roots of the rigid until the one before the tip end. (n is the number from the roots to end tip)

 

The tip end just happen to be:

I1 =  I2 = I3  ; 

 

For the mass:

1kg = 1.000

2kg= 0.5000

8kg= 0.1250

which mean mass value in those xml will be

M=1/n*kg

 

The main problem, I still finding the right value for a and b also mass to got the effect that I wanted. It quite fun to experiment on this value.

 

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@ Xp32 or anyone else please,

 

I've just been reading Nex and your current Hair Hdt releases, is 11.11 not working as well as previous versions yet? I only ask because of what it says in the description about something different with effect. This would be my first ever install of HDT physics if I can get it to work xD, I can download 9.28 & 11.11 I think but if 10.25-11.04 are better at the moment where would I find a download link to those please? It would be a pleasure to test these out while staying up to date as they progress.

 

 

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Okay, Here is the File for latest HDT version, Thanks for Hydro to enlighten me in this matter. The effect might be different from before, and still finding the best one to look like from previous.

 

For Build Havok-HDT v11.11

 

Momiji Miko 

attachicon.gifHDTPhysX Momiji Miko v02-11.7z

 

Ponytail Hair 

attachicon.gifPonytail for HDTphyscis extension_11.7z

 

@Hydro

the same method is not working for the hair. By using that value 0.01-0.01-0.01 and 1.0 for inertia and mass to all rigid bodies make the motions a bit strange. It almost as "torque" effect (have trying how it looks when I mess with torque and seems not applicable for soft thing) is added to the ragdoll and not very smooth one..

 

After some search, seems each time the branch is extended, I have to add certain value that multiplied following to the end rear. By doing this, I got similar effect from the previous version (before the HDT 11.11) but "errors" about unstable rigid (remember when rigid touch each other surface) is still happen but at very very minor detail and need to wait long for it to occur.. In other words.. got minimize the "errors"

 

The formula almost like this (in raw, but not sure and this just my guess)

I1= a+bn ;I2= 1/3a+bn ;I3= 1/3a+bn ; This formula apply from the start/roots of the rigid until the one before the tip end. (n is the number from the roots to end tip)

 

The tip end just happen to be:

I1 =  I2 = I3  ; 

 

For the mass:

1kg = 1.000

2kg= 0.5000

8kg= 0.1250

which mean mass value in those xml will be

M=1/n*kg

 

The main problem, I still finding the right value for a and b also mass to got the effect that I wanted. It quite fun to experiment on this value.

 

Now I know why damping not working

http://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/topic/293007

They use max(0, 1 - damping*dt) to approximate exp( 1-damping, dt )....I don't think it's right.

and the damping can be greater than 1 ...

 

so should I create a mapping for that?

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I can't seem to find an answer to this... what bones does HDT effect? just the breast and butt bones or does it also utilise two other two pairs of breast bones and the three other pairs butt bones?

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NPC L/R Breast and NPC L/R Butt are the only bones affected by the plugin by default, by spring motors. Prebreast and Prebutt are anchored to the skeleton and all they are used for is parents for the previously mentioned bones and they do not move. NPC L/R Breast01 are not affected by this plugin and that's why the nipple and top of some tbbp bodies seems to crush/stay fixed.

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Now I know why damping not working

http://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/topic/293007

They use max(0, 1 - damping*dt) to approximate exp( 1-damping, dt )....I don't think it's right.

and the damping can be greater than 1 ...

 

so should I create a mapping for that?

 

Now it make sense to me....  Even If I maximize the damping value I only got it decelerate to 0.9833 . from previous velocity (where it go so fast) at 60 steps. Those "shaking issue" might be come from this but dunno, just my guess. Btw, how many timesteps (fps or dubstep or whatever it call) is defined on HDTPhysicsExtension.dll.

 

For the mapping.... IMO it would be worth to try and I'll be glad to test-experiment on it. It's all depend on you mate..Whatever your decision.. we gonna accept it raw, lol

 

EDIT:

fix damping problem on #1183

 

AWESOME! gonna try it

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Is there an archive of all the general version releases of HDTPhysics please? I'm not sure where to look beyond 9.28 to 11.11...

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Okay, Here is the File for latest HDT version, Thanks for Hydro to enlighten me in this matter. The effect might be different from before, and still finding the best one to look like from previous.

 

For Build Havok-HDT v11.11

 

Momiji Miko 

attachicon.gifHDTPhysX Momiji Miko v02-11.7z

 

Ponytail Hair 

attachicon.gifPonytail for HDTphyscis extension_11.7z

 

@Hydro

the same method is not working for the hair. By using that value 0.01-0.01-0.01 and 1.0 for inertia and mass to all rigid bodies make the motions a bit strange. It almost as "torque" effect (have trying how it looks when I mess with torque and seems not applicable for soft thing) is added to the ragdoll and not very smooth one..

 

After some search, seems each time the branch is extended, I have to add certain value that multiplied following to the end rear. By doing this, I got similar effect from the previous version (before the HDT 11.11) but "errors" about unstable rigid (remember when rigid touch each other surface) is still happen but at very very minor detail and need to wait long for it to occur.. In other words.. got minimize the "errors"

 

The formula almost like this (in raw, but not sure and this just my guess)

I1= a+bn ;I2= 1/3a+bn ;I3= 1/3a+bn ; This formula apply from the start/roots of the rigid until the one before the tip end. (n is the number from the roots to end tip)

 

The tip end just happen to be:

I1 =  I2 = I3  ; 

 

For the mass:

1kg = 1.000

2kg= 0.5000

8kg= 0.1250

which mean mass value in those xml will be

M=1/n*kg

 

The main problem, I still finding the right value for a and b also mass to got the effect that I wanted. It quite fun to experiment on this value.

 

Added links to the 2nd post. Does it look ok?

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Is there an archive of all the general version releases of HDTPhysics please? I'm not sure where to look beyond 9.28 to 11.11...

 

9-28 is the latest stable.

 

Anything more current is a work in progress and is not necessarily known to be stable or consistent.

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11 - 11 / 11 - 13, reproducible every time :

 

enter building ( cell ), talk to npc, save game ( normal or quick ), leave cell. Reload save, talk to NPC, all physics stop working and the game must be restarted.

 

Haven't tested any other aspects, but this happens every time.

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11 - 11 / 11 - 13, reproducible every time :

 

enter building ( cell ), talk to npc, save game ( normal or quick ), leave cell. Reload save, talk to NPC, all physics stop working and the game must be restarted.

 

Haven't tested any other aspects, but this happens every time.

 

Yep - same here with 11-11. Downloading 11-13 now....

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11 - 11 / 11 - 13, reproducible every time :

 

enter building ( cell ), talk to npc, save game ( normal or quick ), leave cell. Reload save, talk to NPC, all physics stop working and the game must be restarted.

 

Haven't tested any other aspects, but this happens every time.

Tested with 11.13

1. Load a save at Riverwood

2. Enter Riverwood Trader

3. Talk to Valerius

4. Save

5. Go out

6. Reload Save > Talk to Valerius > shop > End conversations

7. Still working> doing this cycle for another 2 rounds and still working

Are you by chance using Face to face conversations mod? if yes, that might be the issue

 

@Hydro

The new damping's formula is giving me more advantage to play with its value. You were right about setting it to 1.0 is not good almost as if we are on a "space".. less gravity.. set the damping to 0.8 is actually the best one and I able to have the hair is swayed to looks what I prefer..but still not able to got rid that "shake" issue when they touch other rigid surfaces.. I called it "snake-like behavior" lol... like it has its own life and movement..

Using the method for the Miko sleeves also change on how the hair is swayed plus it's also show snake-like behavior. For now, I'm still using The formula I've told you to edit it and it work to "almost" kill those snake like behavior. So, my latest update for the ponytail is still valid (lol).. And thanks for the update again, using the damping value now make some sense

 

@Monsto

Yes, at least I almost kill some issue. On another note, I found a fix about an artifact spot showed on the hair meshes if we choose light color (e.g. Blond). It can easily fixed by using nifskope by changing "BS Num UV Sets" value to "1" (at default it set at about 4000)

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I'm surprised the file size:

All versions had been around 10 MB in size.

The version of the 11-11 has around 2 MB and version 11-13 of napkinzdk in # 1191 has even just around 2 MB file size.

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