The Future of TK17 ?

[Mr_Smoke]

4 minutes ago, Marburg said:

 

Criticism? You called me a liar, dishonest, a thief and only in it for my own fame and glory.

That's when i decided i want nothing to do with you.

You reap what you sow, Smoke.

 

Now make up your mind: sacrifice the game or not?

 

 

and we talk about. But at the end you started ranting and it was nothing more than you trying to create a gotcha moment. That is when I decided, that you are man baby kissing someone booty. So ask yourself that question: make up your mind - sacrifice the game or not?

[AbSTD]

19 minutes ago, ntsa said:

If not let this old dog die and move to greener pastures. We all should probably look up and around us maybe we'll find something better.

 

I don't blame you for thinking the way that you do, but it still hard to let the zombie dog die when you have basically shoved you dick so far up its smelly ass... LOL

[Number251137]

10 minutes ago, ntsa said:

Don't like it? Do it better. If it's good I'll drop KE and flock over just cause it's better and I'm sure I'll not be the only one.
If not let this old dog die and move to greener pastures. We all should probably look up and around us maybe we'll find something better.

I do believe that to be a modicum of reason in an otherwise pointless thread. Frankly, if development stops, there's still a couple of years left in the program in terms of usage, and then after that, VAM looks pretty good to me, so I'll move on to that. Which, rather ironically, is about a thousand times more 'paywalled' than TK17 could ever hope to be. I mean, come on; in an age where multi-national gaming companies are charging $20 for a single skin in their games (I'm sure we've all seen such things) are we really bothered about a $1 or two for content? I mean, FIFA or NBA are pretty much the same game every year and nets the companies millions of dollars every year just for cosmetic downloads alone.

 

Anyway, that's a completely different arguament; the point is there are two options at this stage; quit or continue and form ModsGarden 2.0. 

 

[Mr_Smoke]

4 minutes ago, _K17_ said:

@Smoke I could say that you are the catalyst of the current situation, but it's not the point of this thread,

The fact is, in your short time here you deleted more posts then my entire time at the Garden.

 

The last thing we need is someone that would interfere with our work,

and delete important posts.

 

So to clarify, we did not ask for your removal, but for your removal of your position,

so you can concentrate on doing content, and let the rest of your team manage the site.

 

Nice of you to admit to do not want to follow LL ToS. The post removed where from toxic individuals went to create a separate club. That club could have thrived but I guess he kept on breaking ToS. So to me, that is proof that its just a bunch of trollish behavior that you are encouraging. In fact, I never deleted anything from you. So stop spewing lies.

[EJAX]

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

Everyone here is discussing this as if TK17 is the only 3d adult character creator/posing game on the entire internet.

Can I put my characters into those programs? They're REAL, ya know... THEY HAVE FEELINGS TOO!!

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

 

Then there's this thing about paywalled this paywalled that, firstly without H5 I doubt many of us would still be playing this.

 

I don't use hook5 for anything. I sometimes use Hook4, but for very specific purposes. I consider it to be a whole other program. It renders much of what I do with this software impossible. I realize I'm the minority in that arena so I try not to complain.

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

With MG dead the 2019 version isn't on loverslab in an obvious spot, but it's on klubexile, and it's already more than a year old.

Want h5 objects? Want physx hair? Want skin layers? The fact of the matter is we're already paying for stuff.

I can't speak for the team on that; but if it were me, I would not want to have to field all of the tech support question. After all, none of that has anything to do with my project.

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

The old modsgarden was a utter mess, that's a fact. Search function was nigh useless

Yeah, the search feature did absolutely suck... So did those backwards-ass comment /reply buttons.

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

At the end all I see is a group of people who said they'll do something, but didn't, and another group of people who did do something, and at current that something is the best we've got in a long time.

Well, some things cost money, and others you just can't charge for. And, as usual, whenever you propose a payment plan to the "me" generation, you're just asking for a revolution.

18 minutes ago, ntsa said:

Don't like it? Do it better.

There ya go!

[Oz70NYC]

Strap in folks...here's where a few receipts get handed in. I'll 1st start with the most important issues, then I'll focus on the smaller misnomers.

 

To begin with, @_K17_ and @Marburg, I've been in constant contact with the both of you since this all went down. Before KE became a thing, and the desire was to reboot MG, I came to both of you with different perspectives. Perspectives that would be beneficial to everyone. Neither of you accepted. K17, you specifically. You came back to me and offered a compromise that I agreed with, but when you brought that idea to your side, they shot it down because of 1 aspect...Patreon. The aspect that seems to be at the core of all of this, though none of you, Avarteas included...choose to acknowledge how it came to be. Now regarding Avarteas and you 2, if finding a compromise is your true intent, then a TRUE discussion need be had. Same way I have maintained lines of comms with both you, Avarteas has to open his lines of comms as well.

 

I've already posted the numbers. There are more people in this community consuming content then making it. And those consumers offer little to nothing regarding feedback. That weighs heavy on a creator. Couple that with the fact that mod makers have watched their content use by media creator's Patreon accounts with zero credit for their work...and watched you allow this to happen without protecting their rights as creators...and that's why we've had good modders, texturors and pose makers either quit...or put their content behind Patreon as well. With Patreon, they have control who gets to access their work, because in order to do so...you have to make a donation. Hence they alleviate a problem you've allowed to fester for years now.

 

Those 2 aspects, leechers giving no tangible feedback, and media makers using tier 1 (mods) and tier 2 (textures and poses) to push their own Patreon pages without giving credit...is why we've not seen any worthwhile modders within the community in YEARS. Let's all a spade a spade, since 2017, guys like Smoke, X17, MarkZappa and Pepeja have been keeping the community on life support with content. Since it seems MG archives can be accessed...go look at the addon section. Go look who's been the most consistent contributors to the addons the last few years. The same handful of folk. Hell, Smoke alone has put out more content in the past 2 years then we'd seen for 3 years prior because majority of the modders quit due to the sad state the community was in. Patreon is a "problem" now because of your failure to protect the work of content creators, while simultaneous allowing media makers to profit off of mods, textures and poses. That falls squarely on you hands as the "leader" or the community.

 

As I've mentioned a time or 2 before, I've got the most experience as a forum admin and community lead then everyone in this community. Been doing it since before TK17 even existed. So I know a thing or 2 about not only building communities, but keeping them in tact for decades now. I started my 1st forum (which is still alive and well) in 1999, when I was 19. I'm 40 now...and that site, as well as 2 others I opened over the years are still going, still providing content and community for their respective user bases, and are overall devoid of the type of drama and infighting happening here. Why? Because I deal with any issues that emerge in private. I tell the moderators and admins I have under my banner to do the same. It never spills into the open, because when and if it does, some people...just like what happened here, will see fit to draw their own conclusions and spout misinformation to fit their narrative. Which leads me to the next point...

 

Klub Exile makes no money from content.

 

Regarding "paid" content on Klub Exile, there is none. There is nothing on the site that a member needs to exchange legal tender to access. There is ONE SECTION at the bottom where we allow creators who have Patreon accounts to promote their work. Only 2 have done so, Smoke and Frabb. And even so, the site wide rule on that content is that if it is promoted on Patreon, within 30 days it has to be uploaded to KE for non-Patreons to use. So everyone does get to access the content, Patreon donors get to have it first though. And if a creator doesn't adhere to that rule, their Patreon post is removed, and they're no longer allowed to promote on KE. That is LAW regarding Patreon, and one I personally plan to enforce to the letter. On that very subject of content hosted on KE, I made a site wide announcement pointing out that the content uploaded to KE is the sole property of the creator. They are free to do with their work whatever they want. If they want to host on KE exclusively, they can. If they want to host on KE and MG, same deal. If they decide they want to pull all of their work off the site complete, they're free to do so...no questions asked. Schway passed through and noticed a few members had uploaded 3 of his mods. He asked us to remove them, as he didn't want his old work hosted anywhere...and we removed them. Creators are in control of their content...not us.

 

I've got plenty more to say, but I'm gonna let people get eyes on this and get feedback. Then I'll respond and continue.

[Oz70NYC]

Oh, and let me be 100% clear, in case there's any misinterpretation from paragraph one...I have ALWAYS been willing to work with you (The Team) in finding a happy medium. YOU'RE the ones that left the offer on the table. As I have again stated numerous times, Klub Exile is NOT a replacement for MG. We never intended it to be. It's an alternative. It's not our intent to usurp control of the community from you, it's a place where creators are in control of their content, and can get viable feedback from an appreciative community...because to even be able to download on large scale you need to be active and earning XP. Thus...taking extreme leeching out of the equation. Is there a way to game the system? Sure there is. But the only means of doing so is so blatantly obvious that we will easily detect it, and deal with it accordingly.

 

Can there be a happy medium? Yep...sure can. But you have to be willing to come to the table. As you @_K17_ so eloquently stated in a previous post..."the ball is in your court".

[hdiddy]

17 minutes ago, mrwrong said:

yawn. none of this addresses what you do after they stop developing the game.

 

but as you were.

The same thing we are doing now. While sure we would love to have a 64 Bit version. Which is not slated to come anytime soon.  But until then me mod the current VX version. Same concept of how people still mod 7.5 or folks still use Blender 2.79. VX Version P is pretty baked, and if I remember it was going to be the last update or one of the last updates before VX2, but I don't remember the specifics of what was said on MG.

[Oz70NYC]

19 minutes ago, mrwrong said:

yawn. none of this addresses what you do after they stop developing the game.

 

but as you were.

Thank you for your inept and uniquely useless opinion. Now, if you'll allow the adults in the room to talk, that'd be swell.

[Mr_Smoke]

4 minutes ago, Netman275 said:

and there are modifiers that expect a place without patreons (I am one of them) although I do not know how many of those will be out there because we have other ideologies and we do not need to use leechers to use them as scapegoats for our recognition needs, to grow in ambitions and expand vanities to the point of deciding when, where, how and to whom to contribute the precious mods, because once you get the client on patreon, it is your land and your rule. Not the Klub exile.

Once there in patreons there is no way to control that but Klub exile if it would be the gateway to it (I think so) while others give free. or "free" .. I don't know anymore with this virtual thing and xilepoints.

I have an account in klub exile, I only use it to see a bit how that is.

Klub exile does not make money, so what? . There are people who do make money through it by promoting themselves on a site that gives free things on the condition of their scores.

That is the point where I do not agree that it should happen, in the same platform to use the concept of gratuity as a hook to the business of others, it should not be for more than the promotions in some small place of the entire forum because this implies an inequality over those who share only and always for free.

smoke and frabb are promoted there just as you just recognized and the list will surely expand over time.

Again blaming the leechers when they always existed, what did not always exist or rather appeared later are the patreons.

 You have already argued that patreons are in direct response to leechers, that is, people who blame them for only taking what others have voluntarily put free and on hand which I find a bit weird.

In fact, it seems very strange to me that such an idea is accepted by some.

Since you are please post screens and provide that crucial information on all the post that I’m saying check my Patreon. You won’t because their isn’t. The only thing that is remotely visible are those post on the bottom page. And so far, it’s not being bumped or spammed with Patreon links. 

[hdiddy]

10 minutes ago, Netman275 said:

and there are modifiers that expect a place without patreons (I am one of them) although I do not know how many of those will be out there because we have other ideologies and we do not need to use leechers to use them as scapegoats for our recognition needs, to grow in ambitions and expand vanities to the point of deciding when, where, how and to whom to contribute the precious mods, because once you get the client on patreon, it is your land and your rule. Not the Klub exile.

Once there in patreons there is no way to control that but Klub exile if it would be the gateway to it (I think so) while others give free. or "free" .. I don't know anymore with this virtual thing and xilepoints.

I have an account in klub exile, I only use it to see a bit how that is.

Klub exile does not make money, so what? . There are people who do make money through it by promoting themselves on a site that gives free things on the condition of their scores.

That is the point where I do not agree that it should happen, in the same platform to use the concept of gratuity as a hook to the business of others, it should not be for more than the promotions in some small place of the entire forum because this implies an inequality over those who share only and always for free.

smoke and frabb are promoted there just as you just recognized and the list will surely expand over time.

Again blaming the leechers when they always existed, what did not always exist or rather appeared later are the patreons.

 You have already argued that patreons are in direct response to leechers, that is, people who blame them for only taking what others have voluntarily put free and on hand which I find a bit weird.

In fact, it seems very strange to me that such an idea is accepted by some.

None of this makes sense to me. So until you can state your point directly, I'm just going to ignore and not even try.

[Oz70NYC]

5 minutes ago, Netman275 said:

There are people who do make money through it by promoting themselves on a site that gives free things on the condition of their scores.

 

Wrong. On a categoric level. We're over 1000 members, and Smoke and Frabb are the only 2 who have promoted their Patreons, whilst making a bunch of their existing Patreon content available on KE for all to access. There is NO ONE making any money directly off of KE content. Period. There's not even a shred of proof you or anyone else has produced to say otherwise. Your point is formulated by hearsay and happenstance. 

 

9 minutes ago, Netman275 said:

You have already argued that patreons are in direct response to leechers, that is, people who blame them for only taking what others have voluntarily put free and on hand which I find a bit weird.

In fact, it seems very strange to me that such an idea is accepted by some.

And it's you, and folk of your mindset's failure to even acknowledge that so many creators DO have that mindset that we're in this predicament. At the end of the day, creators want their content respected. The want their work to be appreciated. Perhaps if you took the time to see it from the perspective of a creator and not someone with FOMO, maybe we can come to an understanding. But so long as you and your ilk continue propagating falsities, we're not going to get anywhere on this matter.

[_Haze_]

48 minutes ago, mrwrong said:

yawn. none of this addresses what you do after they stop developing the game.

 

but as you were.

Makes perfect sense. They want to ban smoke. Something he has been bitching about. But oddly enough, smoke said that Avarteas and him are in good terms. The real question is, why is K17 going after smoke? By the sound of things, which all seems to be true thus far. Is that smoke did not like that his mods were altered and being pushed as crucial updates and criticized K17 for it. K17 did not like such constructive criticism that ever since, they both been at each other.

K17 is team leader and should show leadership skills. We are not getting nothing. By the looks of it, Avarteas wants it this issue patched up and K17 is the messager. But that messager added his personal agenda.

 

By the ways guys. ModsGarden is back. But K17 is failing to admit that.

[_Haze_]

24 minutes ago, Netman275 said:

and there are modifiers that expect a place without patreons (I am one of them) although I do not know how many of those will be out there because we have other ideologies and we do not need to use leechers to use them as scapegoats for our recognition needs, to grow in ambitions and expand vanities to the point of deciding when, where, how and to whom to contribute the precious mods, because once you get the client on patreon, it is your land and your rule. Not the Klub exile.

Once there in patreons there is no way to control that but Klub exile if it would be the gateway to it (I think so) while others give free. or "free" .. I don't know anymore with this virtual thing and xilepoints.

I have an account in klub exile, I only use it to see a bit how that is.

Klub exile does not make money, so what? . There are people who do make money through it by promoting themselves on a site that gives free things on the condition of their scores.

That is the point where I do not agree that it should happen, in the same platform to use the concept of gratuity as a hook to the business of others, it should not be for more than the promotions in some small place of the entire forum because this implies an inequality over those who share only and always for free.

smoke and frabb are promoted there just as you just recognized and the list will surely expand over time.

Again blaming the leechers when they always existed, what did not always exist or rather appeared later are the patreons.

 You have already argued that patreons are in direct response to leechers, that is, people who blame them for only taking what others have voluntarily put free and on hand which I find a bit weird.

In fact, it seems very strange to me that such an idea is accepted by some.

I recalled and followed your path. To delete all my mods. But that served no good. Its public domain - all you done is complain and hope for the downfall for MG. You got your wish but since its patreon you can't resist.

And you are constantly criticizing VX and promoting 7.5 so stop trying to claim that you will serve a useful purpose. As it stands, you are in favor of giving Pervk the boot.

[Mr_Smoke]

1 hour ago, Netman275 said:

and there are modifiers that expect a place without patreons (I am one of them) although I do not know how many of those will be out there because we have other ideologies and we do not need to use leechers to use them as scapegoats for our recognition needs, to grow in ambitions and expand vanities to the point of deciding when, where, how and to whom to contribute the precious mods, because once you get the client on patreon, it is your land and your rule. Not the Klub exile.

Once there in patreons there is no way to control that but Klub exile if it would be the gateway to it (I think so) while others give free. or "free" .. I don't know anymore with this virtual thing and xilepoints.

I have an account in klub exile, I only use it to see a bit how that is.

Klub exile does not make money, so what? . There are people who do make money through it by promoting themselves on a site that gives free things on the condition of their scores.

That is the point where I do not agree that it should happen, in the same platform to use the concept of gratuity as a hook to the business of others, it should not be for more than the promotions in some small place of the entire forum because this implies an inequality over those who share only and always for free.

smoke and frabb are promoted there just as you just recognized and the list will surely expand over time.

Again blaming the leechers when they always existed, what did not always exist or rather appeared later are the patreons.

 You have already argued that patreons are in direct response to leechers, that is, people who blame them for only taking what others have voluntarily put free and on hand which I find a bit weird.

In fact, it seems very strange to me that such an idea is accepted by some.

Why my name being dragged? Whats your deal? Like it was pointed out. You deleted you stuff and became a salty individual. You were a hardcore team 7.5 supporter - now you are supporting VX. How noble. 

 

I tell you this - I did consider limiting the stuff I posted in KE and posting it all in Patreon. But no, I liked the the community and constructive community we are creating so I doubled down on supporting over my patreon.

 

In fact - thank K17 for that. My patreon was his doing. And ultimately he could of stopped it. But nope - he decided to basely attack my character.

[The_Swinery]

2 hours ago, Oz70NYC said:

Klub Exile makes no money from content.

 

 

Regarding "paid" content on Klub Exile, there is none. There is nothing on the site that a member needs to exchange legal tender to access. There is ONE SECTION at the bottom where we allow creators who have Patreon accounts to promote their work.

 

KlubExile has been a welcome stopgap after MG went on hiatus from the lurkers, the leechers and the newbs, of which I'm one. I was skeptical of the KlubExile format but am now a fan of its contribution based community building. Being new to the game and wanting to learn more, being able to ask questions and share

 

Unfortunately, to anyone visiting the site - Paid Content is one of the six main categories. I could see how this placeholder, however innocuous it may be would be a huge red flag to the Dev Team.

 

So if it's not a store, is it really worth fighting for Patreon front page promotion under  the category "Paid Content"?

 

I recall on MG many modders had their Patreon links in their profile or in their post subheaders which seemed to be fine with the TK17 team.

 

Just my two cents....thank you creators, modders, devs.

[EJAX]

1 hour ago, _Haze_ said:

By the ways guys. ModsGarden is back. But K17 is failing to admit that.

You might be able to access the server if you know the actual IP address, but as far as the .cc goes, it's still offline... Unless somebody like JUST paid the bill and it hasn't propagated to my side of the planet yet.

[Oz70NYC]

9 minutes ago, ElitistSwine said:

 

KlubExile has been a welcome stopgap after MG went on hiatus from the lurkers, the leechers and the newbs, of which I'm one. I was skeptical of the KlubExile format but am now a fan of its contribution based community building. Being new to the game and wanting to learn more, being able to ask questions and share

 

Unfortunately, to anyone visiting the site - Paid Content is one of the six main categories. I could see how this placeholder, however innocuous it may be would be a huge red flag to the Dev Team.

 

So if it's not a store, is it really worth fighting for Patreon front page promotion under  the category "Paid Content"?

 

I recall on MG many modders had their Patreon links in their profile or in their post subheaders which seemed to be fine with the TK17 team.

 

Just my two cents....thank you creators, modders, devs.

Well said, and thank you for that observation. An educated observation devoid of vitriol and personal bias is always welcome.

[hdiddy]

Well 7 pages of comments later, this has gotten us no where. So nothing more to do or say. K17 and team, you know where to find us on Discord. Let us know when you figure yourselves out and you have something to offer.

[Mr_Smoke]

21 minutes ago, Marburg said:

  Reveal hidden contents

and we talk about. But at the end you started ranting and it was nothing more than you trying to create a gotcha moment. That is when I decided, that you are man baby kissing someone booty.

 

Actually it was you who ranted about how K17 was always mean to you and how he kept Avarteas away from the community and that I was just a buddy of him and that's why i also hated you. And you ranted about your shoe again of course

 

Then i explained that everything you accused me of was either simply not true (remember the room options you claimed i discovered just to gloat?) or based on a misunderstanding. And i offered to make peace. You didnt want that. That settled it for me.

 

In fact up to that I had always treated you with respect and always praised your work. I still do, I think you are probably the most talented clothing modder in the community and have said so here, on MG and on the Dev Team site.

 

So here we are, you just called me an ass-kissing man baby and then you expect me (or us) to work with you?

 

 

 

 

 

I called you that because it seems to have an effect. Either way, don't play innocent, I saw my mistake and offered an apology. You decided to take it out of context to push your narrative. So I continued. Here is proof, you even quoted it. So thanks for that

 

 

 

Edit. You offered peace pipe. I said yeas. Proof. Yes I got that.

 

 

You proceeded to gloat and spammed random message. Funny how claimed to offer peace pipe and continue to attack.

 

 

 

 

Regardless, since then - I decided to go my way and just ignore you guys. But for some reason, you guys tend to bring me up every single time. So of course I - naturally I have to say something.

 

[gregathit]

This thread will remain closed for a day or so to let everyone cool off.  I understand the passion that folks feel, but we can't allow forum rules to be broken.  When this thread opens back up (or another takes its place) please make sure your criticism/advice is of a constructive nature.  It is perfectly fine to have a spirited debate regarding opinions and ideas, it is not acceptable to insult fellow members.

 

Please see forum rules for more information:  https://www.loverslab.com/guidelines/

 

Thanks for your patience.

 

Greg

LL Moderator