Toxic Masculinity and Men's Shame

[Fakenet]

What is the question?

Are you just trying to stir up a shitstorm or what is your point?

[MellowDrama]

14 hours ago, nIn nIn nIn said:

Toxic masculinity?

 

Read - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_masculinity#:~:text=Toxic masculinity is thus defined,other emotions such as anger.

 

Men can be masculine without being toxic. Real men cry when someone they love dies or gets hurt. Real men can wear a pink shirt and it doesn't mean anything (ie - not gay) and many etceteras can be added to that very short list of just 2 examples.

If you can't be a "real man" without putting other men down who are "less" (in your eyes alone) then you are a toxic.

I feel like this is a very woman view on you know something men should decide and i guess they did through being alive and doing what they do. that make sense? you can't relate to that just like they can't to you. Real men cry, i guess but not in front of you if you need support they are there for you like a dog going in the woods to die.

[KoolHndLuke]

So males aren't supposed to dish it out, but they're supposed to take it. I touch a woman in public and get arrested, they can hit and call me every name they can think of and I should "just be a man". I'd just love to see the police's reaction if this guy called them. They'd probably arrest him for wasting their time. Anybody else see the blatant hypocrisy here?

 

How about seeing a child with a woman in public? You think nothing of it. A man with a child? Depending on the child's look, you might be very suspicious. It is too damned easy to bring down a man in any position of power with any amount of money simply by allegations from several women of sexual abuse or almost anything involving children. It's no wonder the prisons fill with men that "went too far" and children grow up hearing only the mother's side of things.

 

It was never about fairness. It was about control.

 

 

[nIn nIn nIn]

4 hours ago, lucakro said:

I feel like this is a very woman view on you know something men should decide and i guess they did through being alive and doing what they do. that make sense? you can't relate to that just like they can't to you. Real men cry, i guess but not in front of you if you need support they are there for you like a dog going in the woods to die.

PMSL - how quaint that you think I am a woman. This is too funny. I have 54 years of experience being a real man. But you obviously don't considering you are probably still wet behind the ears.

[RexxingFlex]

10 hours ago, phillout said:

 

1 healthy man is enough to impregnate 10-20 women in his life with ease. There is absolutely no shortage of sperm. The sperm by default worth nothing. Zero. Nada. 

 

How much does ovum worth? Especially if a women actually had a pregnancy and given birth to a child? Check for prices on surrogate mother services. How much an average man gets paid for putting his dick into a woman's body in attempt to become a father? I guess you know the answer. 

 

There can't be any parity in a situation like that. Absolutely any society will be gynocentric - our species can't help it. Everything else is just an attempt to somehow bring the amount of misery in a life of an average human male to a manageable level in order to stabilize the society - so here comes monogamy, rules setting up men as the masters of the family etc. Without it the vast majority of men would never have an offspring, as it was in the distant past, and a large part of them would never even score. This would create a dangerous social tension, and alpha-males didn't want that. So they threw those low-status males a bone.

 

The term "toxic masculinity" is yet another modern option of controlling those low-status males, "wear you Wimp&Cuck badge with a pride, you are really masculine, without traces of toxicity". 

While I agree with you almost completely, I have to say that this sort of mindset seems to tell only part of the story.

If you look at humans as just animals you'll always get blindsided quickly, a mistake that gets repeated through history so many times over it, becomes nauseating!

 

Every time a civilization starts questioning, devaluing, belittling even, the worth and status of men, it always ends the same way. Civilization disappears!

You can say that women are the prized possessions of humanity, that they are then end goal of any men! But tell that the overwhelming numbers of over 30 somethings that keep seemingly appearing out of nowhere, or tell that to the Hollywood actresses that all the sudden seem to have problems finding dates, and keeping relationships going for more than week!

 

Toxic masculinity is a term invented by people who don't know they are doing, saying or why they are even there anymore! It's comes from people who don't have a clue of their responsibilities or even their own nature. As far as I'm concerned anyone using the term "Toxic Masculinity" or similar terms has branded themselves an as evolutionary dead end.

 

All their seeming biological advantages be they physical or mental in nature are for nothing at that point, and worst of all deep down they know it.

 

 

[0wnyx]

if i had to choose of being either toxic or harmless, i choose toxic. however i guess its ok to be both. "the hero has to be a monster" as peterson says.

[phillout]

33 minutes ago, TheAwesomeTRex said:

Every time a civilization starts questioning, devaluing, belittling even, the worth and status of men, it always ends the same way. Civilization disappears!

 

This is what Lev Gumilev has called "losing passionarity", since men are the major source of it. It's not that some "civilization" starts devaluing men on purpose. It's just that men get accustomized to a safe, low-risk, lifestyle and aren't ready to risk everything. Well, anything.  Men's life was always shit - unless you do something, life will push you into the corner and will bit the crap out of you, it will make you miserable, because, as I said, by default men's life worth absolutely nothing. But as the time passes, the corner just became a bit more comfortable. You've got some money, you've got video games, online porn, some government-approved drugs, other sources of dopamine,  so it's not all that bad, right? And the frustration, depression and prostate cancer all seem like a purely random stuff coming out of nowhere. Right. Why bother leaving the comfort zone then?

 

And when the time comes, and the invaders are at the gates (in one form or another), men aren't ready to do anything. Because what's the point and why bother?

 

And the civilization falls. And another one comes out on top.

 

The circle of life and death.

[Darkpig]

There is a point in every man's life where they question what is worth fighting. It plays out in my head like this:

 

Man: "Is there a cause worth fighting for?"

Pig: "Maybe. Do I trust you to make that decision? No. But you'll end up doing it anyway."

 

Hahaha. I shouldn't be laughing at this but I'm doing it anyway.

[RexxingFlex]

4 hours ago, phillout said:

This is what Lev Gumilev has called "losing passionarity", since men are the major source of it. It's not that some "civilization" starts devaluing men on purpose. It's just that men get accustomized to a safe, low-risk, lifestyle and aren't ready to risk everything. Well, anything.  Men's life was always shit - unless you do something, life will push you into the corner and will bit the crap out of you, it will make you miserable, because, as I said, by default men's life worth absolutely nothing. But as the time passes, the corner just became a bit more comfortable. You've got some money, you've got video games, online porn, some government-approved drugs, other sources of dopamine,  so it's not all that bad, right? And the frustration, depression and prostate cancer all seem like a purely random stuff coming out of nowhere. Right. Why bother leaving the comfort zone then?

 

And when the time comes, and the invaders are at the gates (in one form or another), men aren't ready to do anything. Because what's the point and why bother?

 

And the civilization falls. And another one comes out on top.

 

The circle of life and death.

Well what you say might all be true, honestly I'm having a hard time claiming otherwise! 

However I don't think we have many cycles in us as a species! In fact looking at the ungodly amount of smooth brains out there, I don't think we are a species at all! 

Humanity seems to be more of a code of conduct, but more complicated that this makes it sound!

 

Recently.....I'm saying recently but it has been a few years maybe since I've heard this story!

-A woman was out there shopping with her kid, and while leaving to get to the car they get ambushed by a bunch of....let's just call them "Outsiders", they attempt to do their usual thing with, threatening to do terrifying stuff to the woman I won't beat around the bush with that one! But before any of this even starts there are a couple of men (not outsiders) are passing by, the woman calls to them and they simply ignore her! 

 

That is not suppose to happen under any circumstances! Ever. Yet did! This happened in Britain BTW.

What you are saying rings very true. But I think it's more than that.

 

I honestly think it is not just men getting comfortable that has led to this, it's not even about alfa or beta males!

THAT there is an absolute absence of masculinity and humanity, in the worst possible way too! There is absolutely no justification for it, a human being let alone a male does not behave like this!

If we did, we would not be here arguing about it! The bear that has been harassing our camp would have been already shitting us out! But no instead we went to that fucking bears hideout, and turned the fucker into a rug.

The so called "Toxic Masculinity" did that, men being worth nothing is a sign of failing civilization of animals that forgot who they are! Not the rule of humanity.

 

As far as I'm concerned men are worth their weight in gold, platinum and uranium combined! 

[landess]

4 hours ago, 0wnyx said:

if i had to choose of being either toxic or harmless, i choose toxic. however i guess its ok to be both. "the hero has to be a monster" as peterson says.

Spoiler

 

 

[AKM]

Was standing in a line today, outside, in the cold and wind, for an hour or so.  At one point, one of the people in the group ahead of me mentioned how cold a woman not in the group looked.  One of the guys, late 40's-50's said to his companions: "There used to be a time when I'd offer my coat.  Not today, not ever again.  Fuck that.  All it'd take is me looking at her wrong, and I'd be in loads of trouble!" or words very close to that effect.  I spoke up: "Nice to see, I thought I was the only one who saw that shit.".  "Sir, don't get me started on the subject, it'll get ugly, quickly."   No kidding!

Toxic thought process by both of us?  I'm sure the mid 20's woman behind me thought so.  She never said a word, though.  Nah, It's bullshit.  You hit a point in life where you either roll over and let them walk all over you, or you just no longer give a shit what anyone thinks, and when the truth comes out, as it did today, you're no longer afraid to tell it like it is, and let someone else who sees The Truth know that you see it, too.

[phillout]

3 hours ago, TheAwesomeTRex said:

Well what you say might all be true, honestly I'm having a hard time claiming otherwise! 

However I don't think we have many cycles in us as a species! In fact looking at the ungodly amount of smooth brains out there, I don't think we are a species at all! 

 

Sorry, I can't take anything seriously past this point.

 

We'll talk later, after you graduate from school where they'll teach you what "species" mean.

[MonVert]

3 hours ago, phillout said:

Sorry, I can't take anything seriously past this point.

 

We'll talk later, after you graduate from school where they'll teach you what "species" mean.

 

Do I sense a hint of...toxic masculinity? ?

[Darkpig]

On 11/23/2020 at 8:31 PM, landess said:

  Hide contents

 

 

That sums it up perfectly. Alpha males or people who try to act like alpha males are but mere pimples to the might of society at large. This is why effective leaders lead by example not fear.

 

Of course any alphas thinking of shirking their responsibilities will find out the hard way that lionesses will happily dispose of them:

https://www.foxnews.com/science/warning-graphic-video-9-lionesses-attack-lion-in-front-of-horrified-visitors-at-west-midlands-safari-park

[RexxingFlex]

On 11/24/2020 at 8:06 AM, phillout said:

Sorry, I can't take anything seriously past this point.

 

We'll talk later, after you graduate from school where they'll teach you what "species" mean.

Interesting response there! 

Don't know why that would tick you off, either way.....

[RandomOne]

I'm a man, I pursue woman, I'm not sorry for it, if this is toxic to you too bad, your problem not mine.

[0wnyx]

21 hours ago, Darkpig said:

That sums it up perfectly. Alpha males or people who try to act like alpha males are but mere pimples to the might of society at large. This is why effective leaders lead by example not fear.

 

 

i think the hole arguments about alpha behaviour is almost offtopic... its very easy to say/do something and be perceived as "alpha" while everybody has its own definition of what that means.

 

the video you quoted is a bit dramatic i agree, however imo if i as a male cant be dangerous/feared, everything is lost... because everything thats worth giving a damn requires that from you at least at some point... this goes beyond being alpha or leading, its a basic requirement to function in society. i dont really like the word toxic or fear in that context, i prefer danger...(cuz being feared is just a side effect of being dangerous), so every effective leader that leads by example also posses the ability to be dangerous (among other things depending on the position of course).

 

more important is the inability to be dangerous... the so called "alphas" or everybody really can come in and use you as doormat. - in that regard i understand why the society tents to brand "dominant/alpha" behaviour as toxic and negative.

[Darkpig]

2 hours ago, 0wnyx said:

i think the hole arguments about alpha behaviour is almost offtopic... its very easy to say/do something and be perceived as "alpha" while everybody has its own definition of what that means.

 

the video you quoted is a bit dramatic i agree, however imo if i as a male cant be dangerous/feared, everything is lost... because everything thats worth giving a damn requires that from you at least at some point... this goes beyond being alpha or leading, its a basic requirement to function in society. i dont really like the word toxic or fear in that context, i prefer danger...(cuz being feared is just a side effect of being dangerous), so every effective leader that leads by example also posses the ability to be dangerous (among other things depending on the position of course).

 

more important is the inability to be dangerous... the so called "alphas" or everybody really can come in and use you as doormat. - in that regard i understand why the society tents to brand "dominant/alpha" behaviour as toxic and negative.

This whole thread is in the Off Topic. If you are talking about the term "alpha" that it is well within the topic of toxic masculinity. The whole "alpha" ideal is merely the the catalyst of toxic masculinity. the word toxic in toxic masculinity makes perfect sense in that men are hurt by traditional masculine standards in society in that it drives many men to overexert themselves leading to depression, stress, substance abuse and so on.

 

By all means don't let anyone use you as a door mat but overdoing it can be stressful. I have a feeling toxic masculinity might be a touchy subject for a site as risqué as Loverslab but here we are.

[KoolHndLuke]

One in every ten. Sounds about right.

 

 

[MonVert]

On 11/24/2020 at 10:06 PM, Darkpig said:

That sums it up perfectly. Alpha males or people who try to act like alpha males are but mere pimples to the might of society at large. This is why effective leaders lead by example not fear.

 

Of course any alphas thinking of shirking their responsibilities will find out the hard way that lionesses will happily dispose of them:

https://www.foxnews.com/science/warning-graphic-video-9-lionesses-attack-lion-in-front-of-horrified-visitors-at-west-midlands-safari-park

 

Being "disposed of" by "Lionesses"  is someone's fetish, somewhere, on LL.  ? Guaranteed.

[2dk2c.2]

On 11/22/2020 at 4:40 PM, KoolHndLuke said:

If people aren't defined by their gender, then WTF is this supposed to mean?

It's a stick to poke drunks who only came in to buy a beer and stare at the women,

O, they left, shit.

Too toxic.

(O man)

So, what, I gotta go hang around Starbucks?

Starbucks??

shit.

[steelpanther24]

On 11/26/2020 at 12:04 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

One in every ten. Sounds about right.

 

 

I know these are setups and fake, but still they make me laugh.   

 

WRT OP, the attack on competitiveness (aka toxic masculinity) makes sense because if you cannot compete on the field of play, change the field.    There are more losers than winners so any system based on competition will end up in a situation that we now have found ourselves in.   I love it when I get told of my "privilege" because I share the same gender and skin tone as Bill Gates, but that is where the privilege ends.    Basically, I tie these two things together.  Someone wants to end white man's dominance, and competing wont' do it, so demonize the entire gender (and race) in order to redefine what is success. 

 

If at first you don't succeed, redefine success.

[Zin Jim 28]

On 11/23/2020 at 5:53 AM, KoolHndLuke said:

What inherent traits does a male possess that females don't? We share virtually every trait save for our genitalia and a few other physical/biological features. So why would one be any less or more than the other? These are all just products of our learned perceptions. What it basically comes down to are doms and subs. The group (or gender) that has traditionally been viewed as subs first wanted parity, then decided they want to be doms instead. What was wrong with parity? Or did they actually ever achieve that?

 

Maybe parity just doesn't work. For instance, a pecking order or hierarchy is firmly established in every group of living organisms. Why do you think that is?

Scientifically men have more muscle mass (which is why MTF Transgender people dominate in Female combat sports) along whith a huge amount psychologically, a lot inheritted from tribal times and are evolutionary as in order to progress to the point we are in, they had to be known from birth. Men are far more disposable than females as a result of this, its why combatants in war are pretty much always male throughout history, even when women are allowed in in equal perpencity, as at the end of the day, one man is all that is needed to continue the existence of a tribe, but having only one female is a death sentence. It is also why men have testosterone, which is a literal poison and the reason men always die earlier of natural causes. All this leads to the major differences between the sexes and why it isnt just a case of Dom and Sub, Men are preprogrammed biologically to take more risks and benefit more from things like stoicism, whilst Women benefit from sharing emotions, and as such is why Dominant women are so much rarer than Dominant men(well that and all the issues that come from absent fathers and Sluttiness of both sexes but thats another topic). The idea of toxic masculinity is simply the female mind (or if you prefer the mind with a lack of the Male chemical soup in it) interpreting masculinity, the main thing being belittling and bashing other men which is a ritual of trust for males as it allows them to know that the bond with others are stronger than bashing, and recieving it is a form of knowledge of your faults and shortcomings, so that you can fix them or adapt around them. I understand if you feel i am wrong on this and would like to hear your reasoning.

[Darkpig]

44 minutes ago, Zin Jim 28 said:

It is also why men have testosterone, which is a literal poison and the reason men always die earlier of natural causes.

How literal are we talking here? Too much testosterone can cause health issues but so can too much of anything.

[full_inu]

Looking at thread title:

 

"Hm, Resetera is leaking".