Toxic Masculinity and Men's Shame

[AKM]

1 hour ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well, I guess flirting at work is officially dead.- https://scmclaw.com/10-signs-you-might-be-a-victim-of-sexual-harassment-at-work/

If she wants it, it's flirting.

If she doesn't, it's harassment.

She can change her mind at any time, either way.  Even years, decades, after the fact.

[KoolHndLuke]

Look at it this way, we set rules in place to keep society safer and a bit more organized. But honestly how many people live their whole lives and never break any rules? None by my count.

 

Then the trick is just not getting caught and covering your ass. One of the best ways to cover your ass that I've learned is by making others break rules first or with you effectively putting them outside the law's protection. Once that bs is out of the way, you are on equal footing with them. You exploit the willingness to do something "bad" to eliminate their advantage.

[KoolHndLuke]

Probably won't agree with me on this one, but women in general are not against men. The lawmakers and judges are- the establishment.

[KoolHndLuke]

Example of what I meant- I still open doors for women, especially attractive ones, while saying "I'm totally NOT flirting with you!". Which of course means that I totally am. But because of what I was saying, they can't call me down on shit because I was "just being nice". Get it?

[KoolHndLuke]

 

[AKM]

15 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Probably won't agree with me on this one, but women in general are not against men. The lawmakers and judges are- the establishment.

 

You're absolutely right, I don't agree.  Why?  Because if women really were in general NOT against men, then they would work to NOT take advantage of the system that's been set up in their favour.  But a vast number of them are perfectly fine getting all that they can get from a flawed system.  Observant men see this, and smart men don't stick their other hand in the lion's mouth once the first one's been bitten off - if they weren't smart enough not to stick their hand in said mouth in the first place.  But then hormones are a really powerful drug, so a huge number of men WILL stick their hand in at least once.

[AKM]

9 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Example of what I meant- I still open doors for women, especially attractive ones, while saying "I'm totally NOT flirting with you!". Which of course means that I totally am. But because of what I was saying, they can't call me down on shit because I was "just being nice". Get it?

Sure, but then one of the girls I was interested in years and years ago didn't understand that I actually was interested in her. 'Oh, I thought you were just being nice."  The difference is that you use that statement today as a defense mechanism against her dragging you through the court system for perceived slights, while the girl I was interested in just didn't get it - primarily because I didn't know how to flirt.

[KoolHndLuke]

 

[Kitty]

1 hour ago, AKM said:

 

You're absolutely right, I don't agree.  Why?  Because if women really were in general NOT against men, then they would work to NOT take advantage of the system that's been set up in their favour.  But a vast number of them are perfectly fine getting all that they can get from a flawed system.  Observant men see this, and smart men don't stick their other hand in the lion's mouth once the first one's been bitten off - if they weren't smart enough not to stick their hand in said mouth in the first place.  But then hormones are a really powerful drug, so a huge number of men WILL stick their hand in at least once.

Believe it or not, there's plenty of us "out there".  Majority?  Minority?  Hell if I know.  I know there's plenty of good, also plenty of bad, but like most issues that anyone tries to apply statistics to, they often lie, or are edited to suit an agenda.  In this case, at least some of it is another case where if you came out and say "Well like 20% of women are basically greedy, nasty whores" (which may or may not be true, I have no idea and doubt any of this could ever be accurately calculated), the buzz dies off fast and people go back to whatever they were doing, because I mean.. 20%  Well... fuck those bitches, but.. whatever.

 

On the other hand, you yell and scream and make a bunch of noise how 80% are like the most evil thing in the galaxy, and they desperately want your penis, but only so they can forever trap you and steal your money and blah blah blah.  Hell.. even women at least have to hear that.  It's hard not to, regardless of the fact that it's not exactly a danger to us, but it's akin to yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater.  Whether or not there ever was one, everyone damn sure heard you and reacted, and (likely) will remember and keep telling that story to all their friends for years, because it's (what passes for) "news".

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything in absolute terms.  There are most definitely 'sinners' and 'saints' out there, though the vast majority very probably fall somewhere more in the middle than the extreme value of either end, if everyone was being honest anyways.  Another sadly lacking trait in humanity, at least once most people think everyone's listening.  Flash and buzz (OMG! look at my like counter go!) mean more to a lot of people than just being themselves and not really giving a damn how "cool" they are or whatever, but.. that's really a whole different issue.

 

The real irony is, it's the extreme radical liberals who probably attained most social reform over the last couple centuries in terms of race and gender and whatnot, which IMO, greatly needed some balancing for a very long time, so I'm all sorts of pro-SJW of YESTERDAY.. back when they were fighting for *equality*.  Sadly now, it's a new, more modern radical liberal left that seems to have said "Fuck equality, let's see what we can get!" in a whole lot of places, which sorry.. that wasn't supposed to be the point.

 

Eh.. really this thread gets ranty enough without my help, so I'll hush.  But yeah.. I'm not naive enough to think we'll see a day of true equality across any spectrum in my life (hell, even if ever), but that won't stop me from trying to convince *everyone* to treat one another as equals.  Come to the table as if we're all worth the same and just as deserving of whatever, and stop trying to screw each other over and bitching about meaningless crap (like that evil Mr. Potato head who's somehow going to be the doom of humanity or something..) and.. yeah.  heh.  Anyways, you get my gist I hope.   IMO, we (humans) really have better shit we should be bitching about or trying to fix, and could probably ALL spend a little less time worrying how bad WE have it and how unfair this or that is since a lot of it is really a bunch of "grass is greener" shit or sensationalized crap to begin with.

 

Anyways, cheers.  Hope that was more coherent than babbly.  My brain goes faster than my fingers when I get going so sometimes thinking and typing don't entirely mesh when said and done.  ^_^

[Guest]

3 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

So where is it officially okay to flirt now?

Wrong question... HOW is it officially okay??? Please post an official list of non-offensive to anyone and everyone (7billion people to poll, may take a while).

 

I'm just glad my husband hasn't called the cops on me for fondling his butt... and other things... but, he was sleeping, so............. ?

 

3 hours ago, AKM said:

It's the damn lawmakers we need to drown in paperwork

Or... elect them and give them a 4 year paid vacation. They can't fudge our lives up while they are on vacation! I wish they would go on vacation now.

[KoolHndLuke]

5 minutes ago, LadySmoks said:

I'm just glad my husband hasn't called the cops on me for fondling his butt... and other things... but, he was sleeping, so............. ?

Probably woke up with a smile and some wood, but morning sex is *meh* in my experience. As for you first question redirect? See post #352

[GimmeBACON]

I have a general rule... don't stick your dick in crazy. There's enough women out there, let the feminists die off as their movement becomes less and less attractive to the opposite sex.

 

 

"My generation needs a bunch of free condoms, 'Cause common sense ain't that common" -Tom MacDonald
 

[AKM]

3 hours ago, Kitty said:

Believe it or not, there's plenty of us "out there".  Majority?  Minority?  Hell if I know.  I know there's plenty of good, also plenty of bad, but like most issues that anyone tries to apply statistics to, they often lie, or are edited to suit an agenda.  In this case, at least some of it is another case where if you came out and say "Well like 20% of women are basically greedy, nasty whores" (which may or may not be true, I have no idea and doubt any of this could ever be accurately calculated), the buzz dies off fast and people go back to whatever they were doing, because I mean.. 20%  Well... fuck those bitches, but.. whatever.

 

On the other hand, you yell and scream and make a bunch of noise how 80% are like the most evil thing in the galaxy, and they desperately want your penis, but only so they can forever trap you and steal your money and blah blah blah.  Hell.. even women at least have to hear that.  It's hard not to, regardless of the fact that it's not exactly a danger to us, but it's akin to yelling FIRE! in a crowded theater.  Whether or not there ever was one, everyone damn sure heard you and reacted, and (likely) will remember and keep telling that story to all their friends for years, because it's (what passes for) "news".

 

Mind you, I'm not saying anything in absolute terms.  There are most definitely 'sinners' and 'saints' out there, though the vast majority very probably fall somewhere more in the middle than the extreme value of either end, if everyone was being honest anyways.  Another sadly lacking trait in humanity, at least once most people think everyone's listening.  Flash and buzz (OMG! look at my like counter go!) mean more to a lot of people than just being themselves and not really giving a damn how "cool" they are or whatever, but.. that's really a whole different issue.

 

The real irony is, it's the extreme radical liberals who probably attained most social reform over the last couple centuries in terms of race and gender and whatnot, which IMO, greatly needed some balancing for a very long time, so I'm all sorts of pro-SJW of YESTERDAY.. back when they were fighting for *equality*.  Sadly now, it's a new, more modern radical liberal left that seems to have said "Fuck equality, let's see what we can get!" in a whole lot of places, which sorry.. that wasn't supposed to be the point.

 

Eh.. really this thread gets ranty enough without my help, so I'll hush.  But yeah.. I'm not naive enough to think we'll see a day of true equality across any spectrum in my life (hell, even if ever), but that won't stop me from trying to convince *everyone* to treat one another as equals.  Come to the table as if we're all worth the same and just as deserving of whatever, and stop trying to screw each other over and bitching about meaningless crap (like that evil Mr. Potato head who's somehow going to be the doom of humanity or something..) and.. yeah.  heh.  Anyways, you get my gist I hope.   IMO, we (humans) really have better shit we should be bitching about or trying to fix, and could probably ALL spend a little less time worrying how bad WE have it and how unfair this or that is since a lot of it is really a bunch of "grass is greener" shit or sensationalized crap to begin with.

 

Anyways, cheers.  Hope that was more coherent than babbly.  My brain goes faster than my fingers when I get going so sometimes thinking and typing don't entirely mesh when said and done.  ^_^

 

Three types; "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".  Unfortunately, I can't remember where that statement comes from.

What I can say for a fact is that it got to the point very quickly for me where the idea of "dating" a pretty much stranger didn't sit well.  You may or may not have read the earlier part where I speak of courtship rather than dating.  Basically, my mentality is that of generations ago where you grew up together, and then just stayed growing up together and raised a family together.  You KNEW who you were dealing with, because you'd literally known them for as long as you could remember.

In short: How the hell do you put the level of trust you need to be putting in an intimate partner into someone you've effectively just met?  That's impossible for me to do - and yet it is the social norm of today.

Then you get the not so wonderful things like no-fault-divorce, where the party that wants to leave need not give any reason, no matter how petty, for dissolving the contract with the State.  (Why the hell do you need a contract with the State to prove that you love each other anyway?)  Oh, right, so that you can please the Church before getting into each others' pants (usually).  And per modern society, that's out the window, too.

I think the main point I'm on about that you might be missing is that, by a certain age, some men, who have been single, have usually acquired a level of resources that they no longer feel it worth risking in an environment where, while either party could take advantage of no-fault-divorce (or any other legal point, like assault/battery, the like), it is generally the female who benefits from this sort of thing.  In particular, when dealing with children, the "family" court system has proven that it is anything but for keeping the family environment even close to normal for the children, and it does this by assuming that the female is the better caregiver for the children.

The interesting thing about freedom is that it is dangerous.  They've told us, since we were old enough to understand, that 'THIS is what you should strive for, and THAT is the price of admission!'  Okay, fine.  But what if I don't like what I wind up with once I'm through the door?  What if, while I would like X, Y, or Z, I find that, after all these years of A, B, and C, I've come to quite enjoy them in their own right, thanks, even though it wasn't my desired outcome.   Observe, Decide.  Thing is, a LOT of single women by my age have come to the exact same conclusion from the other side of the debate: The point is to build a life together, and if you've ended up building your life on your own, whether you're male or female doesn't matter; chances are you're not going to happily invite someone else into your life, that you built, on your own.

As for social reform, there's been plenty of that.  But one of the problems with reform is the standard problem with change in general: It takes a lot to get things moving in a new direction, and once that momentum starts, it's very difficult to stop.  More often than not, no matter what direction things are moving in, they will go from one extreme, back to the center, but have so much momentum by that time that they'll head right on out to the other extreme.  I've seen just that with a lifelong acquaintance and died in the wool SJW.  For a time there, it seemed reasonable... and then it just went off the rails (kind of like my posts).  I quit listening to her stuff years ago, because that particular subject kept coming up repeatedly - as if she had nothing else to speak on. 

As per treating as equals, that'll never happen, and frankly shouldn't, as people are different and therefore, by definition, can't be equal.  What can happen is reserving judgement until you've had a chance to observe and understand who the individual you're dealing with is, as an individual.  But that won't happen, either, because all men are toxic and all women... whatever it is all women do that's negative.  There's zero room for the individual in such statements.

[Kitty]

5 minutes ago, AKM said:

Three types; "Lies, damned lies, and statistics".  Unfortunately, I can't remember where that statement comes from.

Heh, fairly certain it's not, but sounds a lot like something Carlin would have said somewhere along the line.  Pretty damn sure he's said at least 100 things that are quite similar anyways, and yep.  Sad but pretty true, 

 

5 minutes ago, AKM said:

What I can say for a fact is that it got to the point very quickly for me where the idea of "dating" a pretty much stranger didn't sit well.  You may or may not have read the earlier part where I speak of courtship rather than dating.  Basically, my mentality is that of generations ago where you grew up together, and then just stayed growing up together and raised a family together.  You KNEW who you were dealing with, because you'd literally known them for as long as you could remember.

In short: How the hell do you put the level of trust you need to be putting in an intimate partner into someone you've effectively just met?  That's impossible for me to do - and yet it is the social norm of today.

Then you get the not so wonderful things like no-fault-divorce, where the party that wants to leave need not give any reason, no matter how petty, for dissolving the contract with the State.  (Why the hell do you need a contract with the State to prove that you love each other anyway?)  Oh, right, so that you can please the Church before getting into each others' pants (usually).  And per modern society, that's out the window, too.

Can't say I strongly agree or disagree point for perfect point, but I do get where you're coming from here.

 

9 minutes ago, AKM said:

I think the main point I'm on about that you might be missing is that, by a certain age, some men, who have been single, have usually acquired a level of resources that they no longer feel it worth risking in an environment where, while either party could take advantage of no-fault-divorce (or any other legal point, like assault/battery, the like), it is generally the female who benefits from this sort of thing.  In particular, when dealing with children, the "family" court system has proven that it is anything but for keeping the family environment even close to normal for the children, and it does this by assuming that the female is the better caregiver for the children.

The interesting thing about freedom is that it is dangerous.  They've told us, since we were old enough to understand, that 'THIS is what you should strive for, and THAT is the price of admission!'  Okay, fine.  But what if I don't like what I wind up with once I'm through the door?  What if, while I would like X, Y, or Z, I find that, after all these years of A, B, and C, I've come to quite enjoy them in their own right, thanks, even though it wasn't my desired outcome.   Observe, Decide.

To the first block here, I just want to point out that there are women in the same position.  They have some level of means they've busted ass to gain for a long time, and/or other sorts of assets.  Stable home, some definition of "family" (kids, siblings, lord knows), etc - all of which can make us equally hesitant to just jump in and hope things don't go completely to shit in that magic "5 year window".  Though I will admit, in the vast majority of US states at least, in terms of family court or divorce laws and the like?  I sort of understand HOW we got where we are, and lots of those things were probably fairly good ideas at one time and in some/most situations.  Like all our idiotic legislation though, it all gets battered, abused, and everyone who can shoves their hand in the pot for their piece of the pie, meaning someone (who often doesn't deserve it) is getting fucked.  And not the "it's ok honey, we'll use lube and it'll be fun" way either.  ?

 

Oh, forgot to put in there that yes, it's almost certainly *usually* men that get really screwed in those matters, at least here (I'm not that up on all the non-US legalities, I suspect it's screwed one way or the other pretty much everywhere though lol) - and that's doubly true of almost ever state's child support system I know much about.

 

Here again, I totally get (and support) the idea that if some guy has moved in, married me, promised family, blah blah.. then the kids pop out and his (let's say reasonably well employed ass) just wants to wave goodbye and never do a thing  to help me or his kids, but he absolutely has the means and is utterly dodging his responsibility?  Well yeah, that's why family court got all "pro woman", and again, sometimes I completely agree.  I also know a lot of guys (most my daughter's age these days) who barely make enough to eat and not be on the street, visit their kids any time the courts will allow (or the ex), and the system STILL bleeds them dry, even putting them in jail (here I thought debtor's prison wasn't legal here anymore) if they miss maybe 2 payments.  Not cool, especially when the mother in said situation is already making a comfortable income and she's also one of *those* ex-bitches who's friends don't even visit anymore because she's such a nasty gold-digging... erm.  Yeah.  lol  I've been saying for decades this crap (and MOST laws really) need to be a LOT more case-by-case and (gasp!) use some common sense rather than everything based on some stupid combination of precedent vs "cool" new crap everyone's bitching about, so we can look "progressive" or whatever.  Bleh.

 

As to the freedom bit...  I'll never quite agree that freedom, in and of itself is 'dangerous'.  Again, I think I see your point, but I guess I'd use other terminology and suggest that freedom isn't at all dangerous so long as people bear a little personal responsibility to not be dicks about it and somehow decide that "freedom" and "entitlement" mean the same thing, which sadly happens all the time today.

 

That though is a pretty complex issue, so I'll leave it at that for the purpose at hand. 

 

20 minutes ago, AKM said:

As for social reform, there's been plenty of that.  But one of the problems with reform is the standard problem with change in general: It takes a lot to get things moving in a new direction, and once that momentum starts, it's very difficult to stop.  More often than not, no matter what direction things are moving in, they will go from one extreme, back to the center, but have so much momentum by that time that they'll head right on out to the other extreme.  I've seen just that with a lifelong acquaintance and died in the wool SJW.  For a time there, it seemed reasonable... and then it just went off the rails (kind of like my posts).  I quit listening to her stuff years ago, because that particular subject kept coming up repeatedly - as if she had nothing else to speak on. 

As per treating as equals, that'll never happen, and frankly shouldn't, as people are different and therefore, by definition, can't be equal.  What can happen is reserving judgement until you've had a chance to observe and understand who the individual you're dealing with is, as an individual.  But that won't happen, either, because all men are toxic and all women... whatever it is all women do that's negative.  There's zero room for the individual in such statements.

 Eh.. For a large part, I tend to agree, though I know for a fact there's still a lot of improvements we could make, and of course while I'm not about running all over the world telling OTHER people how THEIR system should work, I'm also definitely not a fan of anywhere that still permits blatant atrocities or for the elite to do whatever the hell they want regardless how many dead we count etc.  So while I DO think there are still areas where social reform CAN be positive (and still sometimes needed), I draw the line when some nutjob femi-nazi calls me a traitor because I refuse to call that thing in the road a "person-hole cover".

 

Um.  Fuck you.  xD

 

One example of all these frivolous abuse-of momentum issues of late, where those championing the cry act as if the world will end if we find ONE MORE 20 year old twitter message by some actor we dare still allow on TV (or what the hell ever).

 

Again.. hopefully based on my responses here, as well as any other serious topic you find me in, you'll find I tend towards the moderate spectrum.  I try to see all sides, and wish all the 'kids' could learn to play nice once in a while with a little understanding and compromise.  Some of my values have conservative origins, some liberal (one of many reasons I almost never like any candidate very damn much.  IMO, they're all basically nuts one way or another xD), and in truth, more than a few of my views have changed fairly drastically over the years, but not based on any stupid "well they're all walking that way, I better go with them" crap.  For me, I'm FAR more likely to hear one measured, reasoning, rational voice than I am a horde of thousands all screaming as loud as they can. 

 

In closing, I know we'll never attain equality, but I do want to clarify that I don't mean the guy over at the end of the bar who's raped and chopped up 2 or 3 people would (in my view) be "equal" even to some idiot on my TV who I find totally off their nut, who would not be "equal" to people I relate to, etc.  I mean, we have opinions.  We like some people, we dislike others.  I don't really see that ever changing unless some alien race comes along and turns us all into mindless drones or something.

 

I would hope though, *someday* (though I'd bet everything I own it won't be in my lifetime if it ever comes) that we could find a place where no one is less or more than anyone else UNTIL they prove it.  Color, gender, orientation, where you live, how many freckles you have... all meaningless.  At least until they open their (idiot) mouth or start acting like overt asshats, it'd be nice if we could all get and give the benefit of the doubt.  If I'm making sense here.

 

I guess an easier way to say it is, I view "equality" in this context to mean potential and initial expectations.  As you said though, by our very nature as unique individuals, any meaningful definition of "true equality" is impossible.  Some will always be "better" or "worse" than others at <insert stuff here>, and because pretty much every human society history has ever recorded (or likely ever will) ends up to one degree or another subjectively oriented, we have and always will make judgements, try to excel (or not, depending who you are), try to cheat the system (or not), on and on.

 

Maybe some day, human beings will do one of those cool evolve into beings of light and energy things Roddenberry kept dreaming up, but until then?  Pfft.  We'll be lucky just to not blow ourselves the hell up, and call that a win, IMO.  Which of course nods back to what someone quoted somewhere that WAS Carlin (and I heartily agree - slightly altered to future, rather than present tense):  “The planet will be fine. The people are fucked.”

 

That zombie apocalypse just keeps getting sexier every year.  xD

 

-Cheers. 

 

[AKM]

11 hours ago, Kitty said:

Heh, fairly certain it's not, but sounds a lot like something Carlin would have said somewhere along the line.  Pretty damn sure he's said at least 100 things that are quite similar anyways, and yep.  Sad but pretty true, 

 

Can't say I strongly agree or disagree point for perfect point, but I do get where you're coming from here.

 

To the first block here, I just want to point out that there are women in the same position.  They have some level of means they've busted ass to gain for a long time, and/or other sorts of assets.  Stable home, some definition of "family" (kids, siblings, lord knows), etc - all of which can make us equally hesitant to just jump in and hope things don't go completely to shit in that magic "5 year window".  Though I will admit, in the vast majority of US states at least, in terms of family court or divorce laws and the like?  I sort of understand HOW we got where we are, and lots of those things were probably fairly good ideas at one time and in some/most situations.  Like all our idiotic legislation though, it all gets battered, abused, and everyone who can shoves their hand in the pot for their piece of the pie, meaning someone (who often doesn't deserve it) is getting fucked.  And not the "it's ok honey, we'll use lube and it'll be fun" way either.  ?

 

Oh, forgot to put in there that yes, it's almost certainly *usually* men that get really screwed in those matters, at least here (I'm not that up on all the non-US legalities, I suspect it's screwed one way or the other pretty much everywhere though lol) - and that's doubly true of almost ever state's child support system I know much about.

 

Here again, I totally get (and support) the idea that if some guy has moved in, married me, promised family, blah blah.. then the kids pop out and his (let's say reasonably well employed ass) just wants to wave goodbye and never do a thing  to help me or his kids, but he absolutely has the means and is utterly dodging his responsibility?  Well yeah, that's why family court got all "pro woman", and again, sometimes I completely agree.  I also know a lot of guys (most my daughter's age these days) who barely make enough to eat and not be on the street, visit their kids any time the courts will allow (or the ex), and the system STILL bleeds them dry, even putting them in jail (here I thought debtor's prison wasn't legal here anymore) if they miss maybe 2 payments.  Not cool, especially when the mother in said situation is already making a comfortable income and she's also one of *those* ex-bitches who's friends don't even visit anymore because she's such a nasty gold-digging... erm.  Yeah.  lol  I've been saying for decades this crap (and MOST laws really) need to be a LOT more case-by-case and (gasp!) use some common sense rather than everything based on some stupid combination of precedent vs "cool" new crap everyone's bitching about, so we can look "progressive" or whatever.  Bleh.

 

As to the freedom bit...  I'll never quite agree that freedom, in and of itself is 'dangerous'.  Again, I think I see your point, but I guess I'd use other terminology and suggest that freedom isn't at all dangerous so long as people bear a little personal responsibility to not be dicks about it and somehow decide that "freedom" and "entitlement" mean the same thing, which sadly happens all the time today.

 

That though is a pretty complex issue, so I'll leave it at that for the purpose at hand. 

 

 Eh.. For a large part, I tend to agree, though I know for a fact there's still a lot of improvements we could make, and of course while I'm not about running all over the world telling OTHER people how THEIR system should work, I'm also definitely not a fan of anywhere that still permits blatant atrocities or for the elite to do whatever the hell they want regardless how many dead we count etc.  So while I DO think there are still areas where social reform CAN be positive (and still sometimes needed), I draw the line when some nutjob femi-nazi calls me a traitor because I refuse to call that thing in the road a "person-hole cover".

 

Um.  Fuck you.  xD

 

One example of all these frivolous abuse-of momentum issues of late, where those championing the cry act as if the world will end if we find ONE MORE 20 year old twitter message by some actor we dare still allow on TV (or what the hell ever).

 

Again.. hopefully based on my responses here, as well as any other serious topic you find me in, you'll find I tend towards the moderate spectrum.  I try to see all sides, and wish all the 'kids' could learn to play nice once in a while with a little understanding and compromise.  Some of my values have conservative origins, some liberal (one of many reasons I almost never like any candidate very damn much.  IMO, they're all basically nuts one way or another xD), and in truth, more than a few of my views have changed fairly drastically over the years, but not based on any stupid "well they're all walking that way, I better go with them" crap.  For me, I'm FAR more likely to hear one measured, reasoning, rational voice than I am a horde of thousands all screaming as loud as they can. 

 

In closing, I know we'll never attain equality, but I do want to clarify that I don't mean the guy over at the end of the bar who's raped and chopped up 2 or 3 people would (in my view) be "equal" even to some idiot on my TV who I find totally off their nut, who would not be "equal" to people I relate to, etc.  I mean, we have opinions.  We like some people, we dislike others.  I don't really see that ever changing unless some alien race comes along and turns us all into mindless drones or something.

 

I would hope though, *someday* (though I'd bet everything I own it won't be in my lifetime if it ever comes) that we could find a place where no one is less or more than anyone else UNTIL they prove it.  Color, gender, orientation, where you live, how many freckles you have... all meaningless.  At least until they open their (idiot) mouth or start acting like overt asshats, it'd be nice if we could all get and give the benefit of the doubt.  If I'm making sense here.

 

I guess an easier way to say it is, I view "equality" in this context to mean potential and initial expectations.  As you said though, by our very nature as unique individuals, any meaningful definition of "true equality" is impossible.  Some will always be "better" or "worse" than others at <insert stuff here>, and because pretty much every human society history has ever recorded (or likely ever will) ends up to one degree or another subjectively oriented, we have and always will make judgements, try to excel (or not, depending who you are), try to cheat the system (or not), on and on.

 

Maybe some day, human beings will do one of those cool evolve into beings of light and energy things Roddenberry kept dreaming up, but until then?  Pfft.  We'll be lucky just to not blow ourselves the hell up, and call that a win, IMO.  Which of course nods back to what someone quoted somewhere that WAS Carlin (and I heartily agree - slightly altered to future, rather than present tense):  “The planet will be fine. The people are fucked.”

 

That zombie apocalypse just keeps getting sexier every year.  xD

 

-Cheers. 

 

 

My last girlfriend was actually one of these self made types.  An immignent, came over with pretty much nothing, and in the span of seven years or so had started multiple businesses, built her own house (by herself; that took two years, except the roof which she rightly got assistance with) and made herself a multi-millionaire.  The problem was that while she had someone, they ended up shutting down due to trauma not of their own making, and that put her in the position you speak of.  Many times, she talked about all the gold diggers who had no interest in her for her - just her money.  Like many people with money, she found that if she wanted an attempt at a fair interaction, she had to "act normal", which meant hiding her money.  She never lived big, like many people do (and go broke so trying), but if she wanted something, she just went out and bought it.  It was the typical mentality that leads to not having to worry about money in the first place.  Example: 'I can't afford X'.  Wasn't that she couldn't buy it, but rather that her current income wouldn't support it, never mind the millions in the bank.

Absolutely the system fucks people over - it's written in black and white for a grey world, and does NOT take individual circumstance into the equation.

How we got where we are is simple: The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

By 'freedom is dangerous', I'm alluding to the fact that after so long of being single, on their own, doing their own thing, what they want, when they want, both men and women get to a point where inviting someone else into their life becomes less and less desirable, to the point where to seriously consider making changes in the life YOU made to accommodate someone else is thought of as an idiotic idea - by both parties.  But that's generally for people in their late 30's onward, though some people hang on to the hope of a relationship far longer than others.

As for children, womens' biology couples with the State to give them a monopoly on that.  Assuming they can find a man (and it's difficult, especially when they're young, NOT to be able to if they want one), the choice of reproduction is almost entirely theirs.  Even science only give men a few options if they want to be sexually active while women have something like two dozen.  I'm close friends with someone who ended up with his wife because she ended up pregnant... but preventing pregnancy was HIS responsibility, not hers.  I've also read numerous accounts of miserable men who didn't want children but were stupid enough to stay with women who did.  It's a matter of 'Sir.  What did you think was going to happen???'  He's not exactly miserable, but he's told me more than once that he looks at my life and sometimes wishes that things had turned out differently for him.  As for me, I've watched his and others' children grow up over the years and being included at a distance is just fine with me.  Enjoy being around them every few weekends or so, leave the shit work to the parents.  Kind of like being a grandparent, I suspect.  It's a good gig.

Ah, politics.  I'm sure you've noticed that running all over the world telling OTHER people how THEIR system should work is exactly what the U.S. is best at.  At this rate, we'll be edging in on Britain's title of 'Most Countries Invaded', and in little over 200 years.  We're beating the Brits at their own game.

Wish I could find the video about the breaking down of the whole Cancel Culture movement.  Basically it was saying that rather than trying to improve, it was simply trying to prove yourself as an individual better than whoever it is you were bashing on - with no awareness whatsoever that you, yourself, are far from perfect.  The statement was basically that  it's taking a single statement or action at a single point in time, and holding that person's entire being to account for that single thing.  There's an apt statement about snowflakes and avalanches: No single snowflake feels responsible for the avalanche.

'Some race coming along to turn us into mindless drones.'?  Have you seen the standard in the U.S. recently?  Most everyone glued to their phones, almost no personal interaction anymore, Big Brother government spying left right and center without need for due process of law beforehand.  Our "political system" pitting us against each other while those at the top run off with all the fucking money (and George Carlin spoke of this in the early 1990's).  It's George Orwell's 1984 in the flesh!

 

""equality" in this context to mean potential and initial expectations. "  That's the problem, though.  There's very little understanding at "street" level of 'potential' vs 'actual work' for 'expectations'.  It's "I grew up with a big screen TV, I expect to have one right out the gate at 18!" mentality.  Reference my ex who told me/asked me: 'I did it myself because who else is going to do it for me?'

On that vein with regards to totally on subject: There are plenty of areas that have been opened to women, yet women won't take the jobs.  Manual labour, dirty labour, outside in the cold and wet and miserable... but the push is not for equality there, see.  Those who make a habit of harping on equality mostly carefully sidestep those jobs.  The push is for equality in the inside, clean environments.  Office work and the like.  And pay.  Well.  I can say for sure that there's too much going to the top in the U.S..  This idea of "Sink our company in every way possible - get a nice fat payout check for your golden parachute as you head out the door!" is silly.  But human nature is to take every personal advantage possible, and fuck the rest.  Not always, but I've found that in big business this is often the case.  Small business not so much, because you're working with these people day in and day out, but big for sure.

While I'm at it, I'll point out that there are places now that are specifically A. Closing applications entirely to Straight White Males and B. If not closing entirely, making entirely different, and more difficult entry requirements.  It's the old standards in reverse.  Simply a change in who's in the "in" crowd, and who's in the "out" crowd.

Reminds me of the saying "Hard times make strong men. Strong men make good times.  Good times make weak men.  Weak men make hard times."  We're squarely in the middle of 'Good Times' right now.

Yep.  This little blue and green ball just a-floating 'round the sun, and WE have the conceit to think that we're a threat to the planet?  The planet's been here a whole lot longer than us! ...It'll be here long after we're gone.

 

I miss that guy.

Zombie apocalypse is quite sexy to the firearms manufacturers and bunker builders who cater to the idiotc whims of some people.  They're stacking cash building useless "zombie guns" and massive "Panic bunkers" for people who have more money than good sense.

[Mr. Otaku]

The actual rate of false accusations the way "redpill community" talks about is fairly low all things considered. There is value in exercising caution, definitely, just like there's value in wearing a helmet no matter how slow you plan on going. But this idea that somehow Women™ are out to take advantage of us and ruin our existence as if they're an electronically connected hivemind is to put it bluntly, extremely retarded. By that same logic men would be 100x more nefarious as a collective if we look all the time men fuck over other men for the pettiest shit imaginable, history is proof. It takes 2 seconds to look around and recognize that we're surrounded by very dangerous things on a daily basis no matter where we go and what we do, but that's no reason to lose focus and start getting paranoid.

 

There was this video i saw a year ago where a brick flew out of a truck's rearbed and directly smashed into the passenger of the car with the recording camera. She died instantly and very brutally and hearing her husband's shocked and mournful reaction is very painful to watch no matter how "big" your "balls" are. That kind of shit gets to you and it surely got me, but if were to stop driving because of that or be hyper paranoid every time a truck passed me i wouldn't have a life anymore.

 

There are no shortages of videos just like that where innocent, regular people fall prey to horrific accidents. I can never know if a car will just turn my way and run me over on the sidewalk because the driver lost control, i can never know if my celling fan will fall on my head because the bearing joint broke and i can never know if i won't highside like a madman and crash my bike and never race again or for that matter i can never know if my rollcage is gonna fail me for some reason. I mean Anthoine Hubert's cage failed so how am i safe in my budget wheels? But i can know that if i'm careful, chances of things like that happening is fairly low and that i can't live in fear.

[AKM]

 

[KoolHndLuke]

Used to think this was mainly a western thing. Evidently it's not- https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/china-proposes-teaching-masculinity-boys-state-alarmed-changing-gender-roles-n1258939

[catchyorbit]

20 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Well, I guess flirting at work is officially dead.- https://scmclaw.com/10-signs-you-might-be-a-victim-of-sexual-harassment-at-work/

 

Good. Work is for work, not flirting. It's been that way for about a decade.

 

20 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

So where is it officially okay to flirt now?

 

You flirt wherever you want, just not at work. But it's not a man's job to flirt. Flirting is just a game perpetuated by women for personal fun: "Entertain me, clown." A decent man has way too much stuff to do, such as working, studying, working out, playing video games, etc. So there is no time for any of that flirting nonsense. Women need men's attention, so they should be the ones trying to earn it.

[KoolHndLuke]

9 minutes ago, catchyorbit said:

Women need men's attention, so they should be the ones trying to earn it.

How's that working out for you?

[catchyorbit]

19 hours ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Example of what I meant- I still open doors for women, especially attractive ones, while saying "I'm totally NOT flirting with you!". Which of course means that I totally am. But because of what I was saying, they can't call me down on shit because I was "just being nice". Get it?

 

This is weird and raises a whole cascade of questions. Why are you opening doors for them and why are you exonerating yourself? Why do you still care whether they will call you down or not? Why do you need to be nice for them?

 

Women hold doors open for me. And I like it.

[catchyorbit]

1 minute ago, KoolHndLuke said:

How's that working out for you?

 

It's hard to say how it's working out. Because I am an adherent of the Gray Man theory. I am an invisible man. I dress in very cheap clothing with no brands at all, pretending to be a broke guy even though I have a higher income than about 93% of the population. I can't even polish my shoes because it will make me more detectable.

 

My last date took place in December 2019. The woman in her late 20s whom I was dating offered to pay for me at a cafe. So I guess it would probably be working out just fine.

 

As for women needing attention. The last chick I was in touch with was the one initiating texting every evening for a span of a week. I got fed of wasting over an hour talking with her every day and dumped her. I remember waking up one morning and asking myself "What are you doing? Why are you wasting all this time and pretending to be interested?"

 

Never bothered with working on relationships since then, it's less rewarding than studying and hobbies.

[KoolHndLuke]

6 minutes ago, catchyorbit said:

Never bothered with working on relationships since then, it's less rewarding than studying and hobbies.

I would tend to agree. And I can say from experience living like you do for most of my life that it begins to feel like a hollow existence at some point.

[KoolHndLuke]

I finally decided that enough is enough and had to take risks. Certainly there are more/different risks now than say a decade ago, but when has anything worth having not involved taking risks?

[catchyorbit]

1 minute ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I would tend to agree. And I can say from experience living like you do for most of my life that it begins to feel like a hollow existence at some point.

 

On the contrary, your life gets more meaningful and enjoyable. The more you fill your mind with knowledge and information the more pleasure you derive. Mental work energises a person, especially if it's done for personal growth and pleasure.

 

There is just one major downside to understanding how the world works - you become very cynical and cold-hearted. But even then, being a coldblooded entity such as myself is very rewarding: there are no emotional burdens.