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DremoraDream

Nemesis Engine + SexLab - compatible?

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13 hours ago, walkingwounded said:

I finally pulled the trigger and was able to get Nemesis and creature working using the steps in post 19.

 

Conclusion: seems to work, but more testing required

 

That said, it was not a clean or fresh base (so maybe I got lucky)

  • for an existing player/game where I had a working FNIS and MNC config
  • not a fresh character
  • I did not empty out the fnis generated files from before, but did click the remove creatures button before regenerating (probably safe anyway)
  • only had CGO checked in Nemesis (not using the others listed)

So far no crashes or anomalies in my limited post conversion playing (same as before).

No fnis.esp was generated by Nemesis (also not in the active mod list).

I did not manually delete anything after running FNIS.

 

Nemesis version was 0.84 beta (version info noted, things change, this thread may become obsolete over time).

FNIS version was 7.6.

 

I like using MO2 so that's all I have installed right now, but I suspect using Vortex/NMM could also work with some additional testing by the community.  In MO2 I can assign an empty/specific mod (just a folder really) to the Nemesis executable to capture the generated files, not sure if NMM can do the same or not, but I suspect as long as the FNIS generated files are preserved you could just disable FNIS and "refresh" (whatever it is called in NMM to sync the hardlinks) before running Nemesis to regenerate the humanoid animations.  Or maybe just uncheck the fnis.esp before Nemesis is run? (don't know, good luck)

to clarify - from NMM perspective, if I copy you does this sound like what you did?

:Existing character with X amount of hours in game
:already generated fnis data (creature included)
:already added anim mods (such as YY Magic Replacer/Realistic Idles/360 Walk and Run/Archer Gameplay Overhaul)

--> then you installed Nemesis
:did not touch any of the pre-existing fnis generated/animated files, folders, or installations
:ran fnis - unchecked creatures (I don't understand why)
:ran nemesis
:deactivated fnis (not uninstalled)
:tested


and thats how it works for you?

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43 minutes ago, DremoraDream said:

to clarify - from NMM perspective, if I copy you does this sound like what you did?

:Existing character with X amount of hours in game
:already generated fnis data (creature included)
:already added anim mods (such as YY Magic Replacer/Realistic Idles/360 Walk and Run/Archer Gameplay Overhaul)

--> then you installed Nemesis
:did not touch any of the pre-existing fnis generated/animated files, folders, or installations
:ran fnis - unchecked creatures (I don't understand why)
:ran nemesis
:deactivated fnis (not uninstalled)
:tested


and thats how it works for you?

Almost...it gets...complicated.  MO2's virtual file system lets you do things that are very difficult to achieve with hardlinks (not going to confuse you further, take my word for it).

 

I started with a functional FNIS and creatures installation (ie: FNIS files generated, MNC 12.06v plus a bunch of animation packs installed), then 'disabled/removed' FNIS Behaviors SE, installed Nemesis and generated its files letting it overwrite.

 

Restated:

  • Base game with mods and animation packs, including creature stuff
  • FNIS installed and working (ie: creature animations work in game)
  • Installed Nemesis
  • in MO2 disabled FNIS main mod ("FNIS Behavior SE" is how it appears for me), left the FNIS creatures and Spells active
    • This effectively 'deletes' the "FNIS behavior SE" mod files (just those from the archive), while ALSO leaving the generated files and files from FNIS spells and  FNIS creatures intact
  • Ran Nemesis to generate its files
  • Tested in game (no crash, creature animations work)

You can probably stop reading here.

Spoiler

 

In MO2, files are stitched together at game launch, so you can enable/disable/move mods around at will without having to worry about file conflicts/overwrites/deletions corrupting your actual game folder (or other mods). The game folder is nearly the same as installed via steam at all times (using MO2).  In NMM/Vortex, if you examine the game installation folder you will see all the mod files you enabled are visible.  NMM/Vortex uses hardlinks to 'merge' mod files into the game folder, which can achieve a similar result to MO2, but when you want to remove files/mods, you need to 'push' (or whatever the NMM term is) those changes before moving to the next step.  Hardlinks allow you to store a file in one location and access it from another path than the 'real' path (eg: c:\games\mods\mymod\mymodfile.esp hardlinked to c:\games\skyrimspecialedition\data\mymodfile.esp).  Since you can only have one unique file per path, overwrites are where hardlinks come up short compared to MO2, you need to 'sync' your changes between steps so the hardlinks can be updated. If you install two mods that overwrite the same file you need to resync if you disable or remove the second so the first mod version can be linked correctly,

 

It took me a few weeks to learn how MO2 works (lots of videos, experimenting, understanding what the 'overwrite' folder is, running apps the right way) and I've broken things more than once, but since the game directory is untouched I have not had to re-download from steam to fix it.  I also tried Vortex and Wrye Bash and also broke things, likely by not understanding how to use them as intended.  In the end I learned how to use MO2 successfully, so that is what I use today.  If you prefer to use NMM/Vortex because that is what you found success with, then that is fine.  Vortex does have a nice way to manage ordering rules (load after x, load before x, etc), which is a plus in their favor.

 

 

If you do find a method that works with NMM/Vortex, please share it so others can enjoy Nemesis too.

 

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14 minutes ago, walkingwounded said:

Almost...it gets...complicated.  MO2's virtual file system lets you do things that are very difficult to achieve with hardlinks (not going to confuse you further, take my word for it).

 

I started with a functional FNIS and creatures installation (ie: FNIS files generated, MNC 12.06v plus a bunch of animation packs installed), then 'disabled/removed' FNIS Behaviors SE, installed Nemesis and generated its files letting it overwrite.

 

Restated:

  • Base game with mods and animation packs, including creature stuff
  • FNIS installed and working (ie: creature animations work in game)
  • Installed Nemesis
  • in MO2 disabled FNIS main mod ("FNIS Behavior SE" is how it appears for me), left the FNIS creatures and Spells active
    • This effectively 'deletes' the "FNIS behavior SE" mod files (just those from the archive), while ALSO leaving the generated files and files from FNIS spells and  FNIS creatures intact
  • Ran Nemesis to generate its files
  • Tested in game (no crash, creature animations work)

You can probably stop reading here.

  Hide contents

 

In MO2, files are stitched together at game launch, so you can enable/disable/move mods around at will without having to worry about file conflicts/overwrites/deletions corrupting your actual game folder (or other mods). The game folder is nearly the same as installed via steam at all times (using MO2).  In NMM/Vortex, if you examine the game installation folder you will see all the mod files you enabled are visible.  NMM/Vortex uses hardlinks to 'merge' mod files into the game folder, which can achieve a similar result to MO2, but when you want to remove files/mods, you need to 'push' (or whatever the NMM term is) those changes before moving to the next step.  Hardlinks allow you to store a file in one location and access it from another path than the 'real' path (eg: c:\games\mods\mymod\mymodfile.esp hardlinked to c:\games\skyrimspecialedition\data\mymodfile.esp).  Since you can only have one unique file per path, overwrites are where hardlinks come up short compared to MO2, you need to 'sync' your changes between steps so the hardlinks can be updated. If you install two mods that overwrite the same file you need to resync if you disable or remove the second so the first mod version can be linked correctly,

 

It took me a few weeks to learn how MO2 works (lots of videos, experimenting, understanding what the 'overwrite' folder is, running apps the right way) and I've broken things more than once, but since the game directory is untouched I have not had to re-download from steam to fix it.  I also tried Vortex and Wrye Bash and also broke things, likely by not understanding how to use them as intended.  In the end I learned how to use MO2 successfully, so that is what I use today.  If you prefer to use NMM/Vortex because that is what you found success with, then that is fine.  Vortex does have a nice way to manage ordering rules (load after x, load before x, etc), which is a plus in their favor.

 

 

If you do find a method that works with NMM/Vortex, please share it so others can enjoy Nemesis too.

 

That makes a lot of sense, and quite honestly that's an extremely safe way of handling all files for mods. No wonder people enjoy MO so much.

NMM is watered down. I ran a new save, let everything install, generated fnis the same way I normally would as did you, and then went about nemesis. Here is where our methods differ:

In NMM, fnis gives you one plugin in the active plugins list. These are also rooted to the data folder in Skyrim. No hardlinks or alternate access paths. Given that  ican't access the files of fnis the same way an MO user would, I simply ran fnis per usual, then went back into NMM's active plugin list and disabled fnis. 
From what I understand, this allows the generated files to exist in skyrim's data, but now cannot be accessed via fnis because fnis is "effectively" disabled.
So I next ran nemesis, and let it generate all it's files. It was able to read all animation files and behaviors without an error. Assuming this is the end, I began my in game test.


I installed Sprint Stop, Jump Overhaul, 360 Movement Behavior, and Combat Gameplay Overhaul prior to running nemesis, so I could prove that Nemesis exclusive mods worked. 

Upon entering game, I had no bugs on start. Accessed a couple of these LL mods, tested on a non-hostile creature, and it worked without issue. Test mid-air combat from CGO and it worked. Tested custom animation files from YY Mystic Magic Overhaul, and it worked. 

Your guide is 80% clear to me, as someone who is stubborn and stuck on NMM. That 80% is all I needed though, so thank you for taking the time for your explanations and methods. This definitely helped me create a working install thus far. If I encounter issues, i'll return to this thread and post them.

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Thanks for the detailed update DremoraDream, hopefully it helps other NMM users until Nemesis hits 1.0 or full feature parity.

 

Summary:

-it is possible to get creature animations to work with Nemesis (using MO2 or NMM)

-see posts 19 (MO2) and 29 (NMM)

 

Nemesis 1.0 is probably 12-18 months away based on release dates thus far but it seems the bug tracking queue has gone down a lot in six months.  Personally I am satisfied with FNIS and the XXL patches capability today, but the design behind Nemesis puts more responsibility on the animation authors to fix their own stuff while also allowing them autonomous control over their own animations, which is good for the future.  Also, CGO is a must have mod for me, so...yeah.

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I've got #19 working... almost... well randomly working

I'm unsure why, I was super careful installing Nemesis and it took me ages to get it to work right(for 360, combat overhaul, and movement)... but when it did start to work, I got the strangest errors.

 

When I try to run any animations that is connected to Sexlab+SLAL, I have about a 25% chance for it to work totally fine. The ones that fail. result in a very awkward stare between actors while the audio plays in the background. Normally I'd assume FNIS(Well Nemesis in this case) Is having an issue... but it WORKS sometime, which makes me suspect it's not a Nemesis issue,
 

I'm quite a bit later, so it may have been something in the above method being patched out, I'll troll through the Nemesis Patch logs in the meantime and see if I can figure it out.

Nemeis Load Order.PNG

 

(Edit: Nope, was working fine, turned out SL Privacy was somehow interrupting the animations. Feels dumb, should have expected that.)

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[[IGNORE THIS, turns out this issue was caused by KS Hairdos HDT version causing the SMP to lag everything until everything gliched.]]

Welp, I got nemesis to work 99%. Anyone seen this error. Happens in any environment that has a bunch of PC's... and the backbaking movement just doesn't stop, everyone is flipping over and over again. It's kinda hilarious.

I get the feeling that this has something to do with Movement Overhaul, Combat Game-play, and/or 360 walk/run plus... and I probably could figure it out. But I just couldn't not share this screenshot. That baby's health should totally be dropping. : D

image.png.7aa89215bcf9ff7bb09aa6cf5de21ba2.pngKerbalSP called this the Kraken, and I think it's good name.

I caught a video of it getting super cool. The braid start jiggling just before the attack, and then right after the animation I was going through ended I pressed forwards, which you can see characterized by the lean that Movement Overhaul adds... the lean just quickly became infected with the Kraken. The game crashed a few moments later, after lagging my system to high heaven.

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It seems that Nemis and FNIS can work together.     (Not that either is nearly as interesting without the sexlab framework 🙂)

 

I've seen posts where people say they use Nemesis and don't use FNIS at all.   I don't see how that's possible (at least without doing some painful work).

 

Nemesis might be the future.   Fore still deserves praise as the trailblazer though.  If Nemesis is actually better, part of the reason might simply be that it's newer and was able to take a fresh start after all the hard-earned lessons over almost the past decade.  Think about the fact that FNIS stands for Fore's New Idles in Skyrim.   FNIS started as idles and has grown into a general purpose animation system.   A fresh start gets to use the lessons learned.

 

I like the fact that Nemesis is open source.  I like that, unlike FNIS, various mods and future mods can be supported without having  to update the Nemesis engine.   Sounds like a good architecture.   It's a shame about the issues between the two authors.   And, I'm sorry to see Fore hanging up his hat.

 

But, how can Nemesis completely replace non-creature FNIS yet?   Unless I'm missing something, Nemesis wants to see all animations  have pathnames like meshes/actors/character/animations/Nemesis_PCEA/##<name>/*.hkx.   Skyrim and FNIS expect one less sub-folder with the *.hkx files at meshes/actors/character/animations/<name>/*.hkx.   All the SLAL packs I've downloaded use the latter paths.  Sexlab framework comes with files using the latter path.   Many mods come with some animations at the latter path.

 

I'm not sure why Nemesis only looks for stuff under the Nemesis_PCEA folder (and seems to require the Nemesis PCEA mod).

 

I feel like I must be missing something.   Is there a way to get Nemesis to handle animations using the stock meshes/actors/character/animations/<name>/*.hkx paths?

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@MikeWander

I suspect if you are using PCEA's (Player Character Exclusive Animations) then the path you mentioned above matters (presuming FNIS PCEA's are in a differently named '*pcea*' folder in same folder tree), but everything else from the 'default' path.  Not sure if this matters for the SLAL packs, unless they include PCEA's, then those would have to be manually moved.  Probably the Nemesis author did that to prevent incompatible PCEA's from interfering (just a guess), or to make it slightly more intuitive for novices when reading directions.

 

I've checked what's in my MO2 build and the only instance of 'pcea' is for nemesis and the files are just those in the Nemesis PCEA mod or from the build output, so I presume none of the SLAL packs I have installed include PCEA's.

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this post is talking about nemesis and sexlab compatibility i have two separate mod load orders one for each gender 

im currently building my male protagonist load order and i use pahe and more specifically home sweet home

something that requires fnis spells do i need the behavior files for that or can i just run spells without running fnis itself

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On 9/8/2020 at 8:54 AM, theanarchistotaku said:

this post is talking about nemesis and sexlab compatibility i have two separate mod load orders one for each gender 

im currently building my male protagonist load order and i use pahe and more specifically home sweet home

something that requires fnis spells do i need the behavior files for that or can i just run spells without running fnis itself

That's a good question, 

I'd imagine if you're loading FNIS animations through Nemesis, it couldn't hurt to try and run the spells. Don't take my word for it tho, you might not get the results you want to see.

In my build (before I wrote off Nemesis for the time being), I had Fnis installed and deactivated the ESP. Since FNIS Spells has it's own ESP file, you could try leaving FNIS.esp deactivated, and keep FNIS Spells.esp activated in your load order that has your Nemesis build and try it out. Worst that could happen is:

a) the game wont load because it's possible FNIS Spells.esp requires FNIS.esp to be active, I'm not sure if this is true or not though.

OR

b) the FNIS Spells won't do anything when it's esp is active because the esp file is confused as to where it's drawing the animations from if FNIS.esp is deactivated. 

I doubt either would break your save progress or anything, just backup and give it a shot.

I can't say much more than that because I don't use FNIS Spells, as it's not a requirement and I never touched them when installed.

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OK, I'm using MO2, instructions from post #19 actually works for me.

 

Short version, what I do;

Left List order;

FNIS
FNIS Creatures

FNIS Generated Files

Nemesis

Nemesis Generated Files

Everything else, animatinos, SL mods, etc.

 

1. First you do Fnis as standard, but when Im doing it im disabling Nemesis and Nemesis Generated Files.

2. Then i am disabling Fnis and Fnis generated files, and enabling Nemesis and Nemesis Generated Files.

3. When Nemesis is done, reactivate fnis generated files, so when you ready to launch game only FNIS main mod is disabled.

 

Done. Creatures animations works, now i have some SL mods with responsive roll, crouch slide and other Nemesis dependable shit.

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Post #19 works here as well with MO2, first time to have everything working with Nemesis.  The only issue I see is that a lot of times when starting an animation sequence, characters will float in the air for a second or two flapping their arms as if falling.  Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly, does anyone have a fix?

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On 9/11/2020 at 3:56 PM, nagothm said:

Post #19 works here as well with MO2, first time to have everything working with Nemesis.  The only issue I see is that a lot of times when starting an animation sequence, characters will float in the air for a second or two flapping their arms as if falling.  Has anyone else experienced this, and more importantly, does anyone have a fix?

They basically go into t-pose before animating. Could be script lag how many scripted mods are you running ?

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I'm having issues with a FNIS - CGO - Nemesis setup where FNIS easily lets you go past the 12-14k limit for animations,  Nemesis does too, but if I go over 13k ish animations with Nemesis, it gives me sliding animations. Dial it back below 12k, and everything's fine again. Weird thing is, I don't need to do switching on and off - I just run FNIS first, then Nemesis, and let Nemesis overwrite FNIS with its .esp, and everything works fine, except for this weird limit if I want my character to walk

 

The post #19 method doesn't work for me at all.

 

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Obviously, there are some incredible mixed results when running FNIS and Nemesis.  I imagine a lot of it has to do with what mods people have installed and the particular makeup of their machines.

 

Why this may be so, I am afraid I cannot add anything substantial or supportive to the conversation, outside of "programming" and "code" somethingorotherandstuff.  I'm intelligent enough to follow along (slowly) when someone starts talking code (in baby talk).  But setting it up myself...my ADHD kicks into overdrive and I go find a convenient squirrel to blame for my lack of capability to stay on task and focus.

 

I am unsure if this adds anything to this topic, but I've been running FNIS SE XXL and Nemesis back-to-back with Vortex and everything has been working.  All animations, all creature animations, etc.

 

I do get a number of CTDs and randomly freezing games that necessitate having to hard-kill my game, but I blame that on the unholy amount of animations I have registered and the script-heavy mods I have going all at once.  I'm slowly pruning my mod list and fine-tuning what I really play with, instead of having so many "but this would be/will be cool when/if I actually get to that situation in game" options.  The more mods and animations I get rid of, the more stable my game.

 

And it's still while having FNIS and Nemesis running together.

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I found running Nemesis and FNIS together to be inconsistent (sometimes it results in a game where creature anims play, sometimes not) and a bit of an exercise in frustration due to Nemesis straight up crashing on a lot of animations FNIS was fine with. Ultimately I've gone back to pure FNIS, despite combat being much less fun without SkySA.

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On 10/6/2020 at 9:44 AM, Althaer said:

Obviously, there are some incredible mixed results when running FNIS and Nemesis.  I imagine a lot of it has to do with what mods people have installed and the particular makeup of their machines.

 

Why this may be so, I am afraid I cannot add anything substantial or supportive to the conversation, outside of "programming" and "code" somethingorotherandstuff.  I'm intelligent enough to follow along (slowly) when someone starts talking code (in baby talk).  But setting it up myself...my ADHD kicks into overdrive and I go find a convenient squirrel to blame for my lack of capability to stay on task and focus.

 

I am unsure if this adds anything to this topic, but I've been running FNIS SE XXL and Nemesis back-to-back with Vortex and everything has been working.  All animations, all creature animations, etc.

 

I do get a number of CTDs and randomly freezing games that necessitate having to hard-kill my game, but I blame that on the unholy amount of animations I have registered and the script-heavy mods I have going all at once.  I'm slowly pruning my mod list and fine-tuning what I really play with, instead of having so many "but this would be/will be cool when/if I actually get to that situation in game" options.  The more mods and animations I get rid of, the more stable my game.

 

And it's still while having FNIS and Nemesis running together.

Question! when you uncheck FNIS_XXL and do Nemesis back to back, once you generated the Nemesis overwrite do you still toggle FNIS_XXL back? or just leave it there, and use the dummy fnis.esp file from Nemesis?

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I've done both, but I tend to run FNIS, then Nemesis, and leave everything up and running.

 

I've disabled FNIS and the .esp after running Nemesis, and all my animations were able to fire.  However, with FNIS disabled it does seem like my game freezes more often during scenes.  But as I have stated I have many script-heavy mods operating at once and which tend to fire more often during scenes.  It could be those, it could be the large number of animations I have, I'd need more time to test, but it is my impression that my game is more stable when I have both FNIS and Nemesis running simultaneously.

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On 10/14/2020 at 12:23 AM, Elrond_Hubbard said:

Is it possible to use nemesis JUST for The Ultimate Dodge Mod? That's really the only thing I need it for. TK dodge has massive lag.

 

I cannot find the 'requirements' page to TUDM, but the two add-on mods for it on Nexus both reference Nemesis, so I would be confident the answer is yes

 

Nemesis does have a patch for TK Dodge too, but I cannot state if it would improve your results or not.

Nemesis is fairly feature complete for humanoid animations, but officially missing the creature stuff (unless its in there but not advertised; and probably lowest priority). 

 

I'm using Nemesis, seems fine with ~24k animations, but I do get some occasional start loop issues (first few seconds repeat in a loop, then it finishes).  My system is 5th gen intel nuc, so i figure that's the issue.

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I'd love to use Nemesis, but my issue is, when I install it, it always duplicates the existing animations (I have about 14000 per FNIS's count) and adds Nemesis on top, which leaves me with 28,000 animations, which appears to be over the limit, which cases me to not be able  to animate, basically. I just kind of slide around on the ground in my idle positions. Can't draw/stow weapons, jump, or interact with anything, presumably because the animations for all those actions are in the "overflow" section that is beyond Nemesis' capacity.

I've tried installing it a bunch of different ways but it *always, always* duplicates existing animations.

 

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