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4 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Maybe somebody wants to make a DD5 "genital piercing" patch for LDC?

It eventually was clarified on the DD 5 discussion that DD For Him renames the vaginal piercings to genital piercings.  Same item, different name.

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4 hours ago, Seeker999 said:

So how does DF find the spanking anims?

It uses the animations by ID from the DF spanking pack.

It has knowledge about what those animations look like, and thus can use them in a way that should be appropriate.

There is decision making in the code around how those animations are selected; it's not just playing any spank animation it can grab hold of.

 

Obviously, I was well aware of the tag-based approach when I wrote the spanking, and I believe that has rarely ever, produced a good outcome in any mod.

The hoops that SLD jumps through to try and find appropriate animations by tag are convoluted, and it's just trying to play a vaguely appropriate sex animation.

To get the spanks to work well, tags just didn't work for me - though that was before I had my own animation pack where I could set my own tags.

Typically, tags aren't set appropriately, they aren't set consistently, and in the case of some animators, they are barely set at all.

If you can't rely on certain animations being available, you can't deliver a consistent/correct behavior.

 

Tags seem great in principal, but in practice produce the nonsense we constantly see in Skyrim.

DFC was written using a basic tag-driven approach for most of the sex scenes, and it's one of the weakest parts of the experience.

 

Most users have hundreds of sex animations installed, but rarely ever see one that is really appropriate to the events they imagine to be taking place.

Even the supposedly clear distinction between aggressive and non-aggressive animations is unreliable.

There are so few lesbian animations (which is absurd given the state of most LL-oriented Skyrim installs) you'll see the same two over and over.

Animation filters wreck your selection, and still fail to produce good results, because a participant is in a pet-suit or a hobble-dress...

The list of issues goes on and on.

 

I decided it was better to have specified animations that work well and are what is intended, rather than worrying about extensibility, to add animations that might not be well-suited - and that didn't even exist at the time. (I did try the "new" spanking pack that was already available at the time, and it didn't really contain spanks, and the animation standard wasn't something I wanted to bring into DFC).

Users aren't likely to have the knowledge of why one animation is picked over another to assign appropriate replacements - at least not without studying the code - and if you're at that point, swapping in your preferred animations is possible via code change.

 

As I was (eventually) able to get the creators of the majority of good-quality spanking animations that were available at the time to let me put them in the DF pack, I was also able to create additional mashups of those Anub spank, which was previously a sadly underused animation because it was "hidden" inside a long rape scene. I might have done things differently if I'd know I'd be able to do that from the start, but now it's done, it's just not a good use of time to go back over it and change how it works just to support spanking animations that I haven't seen yet.

 

If there's a high quality spanking animation that DF doesn't support, let me know the pack and animation name, and I'll see if I can contrive explicit support for it. That's probably the easiest way at this point.

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24 minutes ago, HexBolt8 said:

It eventually was clarified on the DD 5 discussion that DD For Him renames the vaginal piercings to genital piercings.  Same item, different name.

I would imagine that to cause this problem, you need to have an old LDC JSON that you ported to DD5 or DDfH without ever rebuilding it.

Simply rebuilding the LDC JSON may fix the problem.

 

But the LDC may be running into a naming clash. It can't work if multiple items have the same name.

 

The way the LDC works is not what I'd have chosen.

I proposed a more flexible approach, that also didn't require a quest to hang the script off, and that would safely multi-thread, but Lozeak didn't show me the code until it was more or less complete, and by then he had no enthusiasm to start over.

 

Writing a better solution isn't terribly hard, but these things all take time. I plan to replace LDC with the DD5 update. I hope I can find time to do all that stuff this year. Last year I managed basically zero development after about this point in the calendar.

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17 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

It uses the animations by ID from the DF spanking pack.

It has knowledge about what those animations look like, and thus can use them in a way that should be appropriate.

There is decision making in the code around how those animations are selected; it's not just playing any spank animation it can grab hold of.

 

Obviously, I was well aware of the tag-based approach when I wrote the spanking, and I believe that has rarely ever, produced a good outcome in any mod.

The hoops that SLD jumps through to try and find appropriate animations by tag are convoluted, and it's just trying to play a vaguely appropriate sex animation.

To get the spanks to work well, tags just didn't work for me - though that was before I had my own animation pack where I could set my own tags.

Typically, tags aren't set appropriately, they aren't set consistently, and in the case of some animators, they are barely set at all.

If you can't rely on certain animations being available, you can't deliver a consistent/correct behavior.

 

Tags seem great in principal, but in practice produce the nonsense we constantly see in Skyrim.

DFC was written using a basic tag-driven approach for most of the sex scenes, and it's one of the weakest parts of the experience.

 

I decided it was better to have specified animations that work well and are what is intended, rather than worrying about extensibility, to add animations that might not be well-suited - and that didn't even exist at the time. (I did try the "new" spanking pack that was already available at the time, and it didn't really contain spanks, and the animation standard wasn't something I wanted to bring into DFC).

Users aren't likely to have the knowledge of why one animation is picked over another to assign appropriate replacements - at least not without studying the code - and if you're at that point, swapping in your preferred animations is possible via code change.

 

As I was able to get the creators of the majority of good-quality spanking animations that were available at the time to let me put them in the DF pack, I was also able to create additional mashups of those Anub spank, which was previously a sadly underused animation because it was "hidden" inside a long rape scene.

 

If there's a high quality spanking animation that DF doesn't support, let me know the pack and animation name, and I'll see if I can contrive explicit support for it.

Thank you for the explanation. I don't want to swap out your animations, I just thought these might fit in as additional options. I understand your reasoning and respect that. I'm not a coder or programmer and appreciate the work you modders do for our benefit. I will be more than happy to use these animations the way I use any other animation packs. FYI, it is a pack I just found today though it's been around for over a year: Cobalt Animation Spanking Pack. The link is to the LE version, but I am using the SE one.

 

I also want to take the opportunity to let you know I am enjoying the new dialog. I know you spent a lot of time on it and it shows. Kudos!

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Seeker999 said:

I just found today though it's been around for over a year

Unless it's had some refinement over the initial release, I don't think you're missing out on much.

 

I evaluated that pack when I did the spanking code, and it's mostly whipping, not spanking, and both the whipping and spanking animations are not really finished. Not so say that whipping isn't an animation we need more of, but it's a slightly different feature.

 

As it stood, I couldn't find anything in it that added value.

I hope the author will revisit it and polish it up a bit further, as it would be good to have a fair-sized pack of whipping and spanking animations.

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14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

You could edit the LDC files yourself. 

 

Maybe somebody wants to make a DD5 "genital piercing" patch for LDC?

If I fix this in DFC, it will simply be to stop using LDC for those piercings altogether and hard-wire in a particular item via form ID.

The "proper" move to DD5 and revision of LDC is planned, but still some substantial distance away. I don't want to waste time of doing that half-way, or prematurely.

Also, I don't have DD5 installed, and in any case, the only way to support both without spending time on updating LDC to be a lot smarter than it is, is via a patch.

 

Seems a problem with DD.

If you install "DD for him" (standard choice) you ONLY get genital generic

If you don't you get regular ... :|

 

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

There is no mitten deal. How does this occur?

Please provide a repro case with specifics of the deals that caused it.

Is this related to some change to mitten flags in DD5 by any chance?

 

I guess mittens have a keyword with slavery or something... i will check

 

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

After level 2 deals ... assuming you did not disable level 3 deals.

There seems to be some implication in this question that you aren't seeing any level 3 deals, though you think you're overdue to get them.

Do you mean modular, or classic? 

What do you get instead of level 3 deals?

Is it "expensive deal", "deal extensions", simply nothing, or something else? What happens?

 

 

Frankly i don't understand how level 1-2 and 3 are triggered... wich is the trigger?  how is level defined?

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Sorry. I don't understand this. Can you provide more detail?

What do you mean "shackles"? By "arm and leg restraints" do you mean the cuffs?

Insufficient detail here to identify a problem.

There is a deal who adds leg and arm cuffs

One of the possible "binders" options is shackles.

And they use same slot maybe but for sure they are not compatible.

 

14 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

 

LDC exists to let you customize your devices. Remove it there.

I will ty but What does LDC stands for?

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Is it possible to detect if a collar your character is wearing is the cursed collar from Sexlab Survival you get if you don't have a magic licence? If so, I think it would be interesting to be able to convince your follower to remove it for you. Devious followers normally don't remove collars since they're not debilitating restraints, but the magic draining cursed collar is quite detrimental to characters that rely on magic. That said, it's still just a collar, and one you're forced to wear so as to not break the law; so you'd need to persuade your follower to remove it. And even then, your follower may charge you even more for the service and force you into a deal to wear their own collar in its place.

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1 hour ago, obviouslyincognito said:

Is it possible to detect if a collar your character is wearing is the cursed collar from Sexlab Survival you get if you don't have a magic licence?

 

Not what you are asking for, but there is a kind of interaction between SLS and DFC with respect to the magic curse collar...

 

When your player character does not have a Devious Follower, but is wearing a collar such as the SLS magic curse collar, then DFC can trigger guards asserting that the player character is a slave and asking where their owner is, which forces you to recruit a Devious Follower.

 

I normally play SLS with Snowberry Start, which gives you the basic licenses to start.

 

I have noticed that when I don't use Snowberry Start, I very quickly end up with a Devious Follower due to the SLS magic curse collar.

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11 hours ago, obviouslyincognito said:

I think it would be interesting to be able to convince your follower to remove it for you. Devious followers normally don't remove collars since they're not debilitating restraints, but the magic draining cursed collar is quite detrimental to characters that rely on magic.

It's an interesting possibility, though you might find it cheaper to buy the magic license.

Having the choice isn't such a bad thing though.

If the collar is removed in town, you'll soon end up with another anyway, but if you're out in the wilds and discover you'd rather take more debt to the follower than die because you can't cast any spells it helps even out the unbalanced and disproportionately disabling impact of the magic license compared to other licenses.

 

My issue with the magic license has always been that you can pick up a sword or armor very easily.

A follower can kill an enemy, and you're equipped.

A follower can't kill an enemy and restore your magic.

If you use the "curse", you wouldn't be able to get rid of it by removing the collar, so for those that like it that way, they would still be able to have a hardcore magic license.

 

If you look at my list of objectives, everything that's at the top is stuff I want to do so my Skyrim will be playable.

 

Right now, it isn't particularly playable with SLS licenses and DF in the mix together.

If you lose the ability to make money - for any reason - you don't just start getting into debt with the follower, you can't buy licenses, and without licenses you simply can't play the game, and that means debt spirals out of control rapidly. The next step is DF enslavement, which was designed as a (difficult) way to get back on your feet. With SLS licenses, it can mean you'll never afford another license again; you'll stay enslaved until you're sold and all you can hope is that there's a chance for escape there. That will pivot on gold control and what the follower lets you carry. I don't like my entire game pivoting on one random number.

 

I'm sure people will point out that there are alternative ways to make money. It amounts to grinding a prostitution mod. You can do that, but it's not "the game" but more a way of making yourself bored of watching SexLab. Regardless of the mod you use - and I don't find any of them particularly satisfactory. Whether it's RP, TDF, SWL, DCL, or something else, you tend to accumulate crippling Wear&Tear while grinding sex scenes for day after day to buy licenses. If you've got a greedy follower too, your debt will get worse and you'll probably end up an enslaved prostitute with a willpower of zero.

 

These various problem scenarios can be fun, once or twice. But ultimately, DF is not intended to make enslavement inevitable and recurrent, but merely possible, if you are unlucky.

 

 

This is not a new problem. SLS has had licenses for quite a while, and there are plenty of reasons for wanting to use the two mods together.

 

 

So, I'll explain how I think the "roadmap" may improve the experience, and people can pull that apart, and maybe even make it better...

Spoiler

 

First up, and in progress now is fixing the worst remaining bugs, which come from the cloak-based scanner. This ends up meaning rewrite of all the games, but players won't notice much difference other than ability to set a gender preference.

 

After that...

 

2.13.4:

  • License Awareness (for SLS);

 

2.14.0

  • get fed and watered by the follower when wearing a gag;
  • follower will sell items for you;
  • talk to follower to fit any items you need to comply with your deal rules (and get charged for any items you didn't have in your inventory);
  • follower will escape from DDs and pause DF if they can't;

 

The justification for these being the immediate priorities...

Why not changes to slavery?

Spoiler

 

By letting the follower manage licenses, they can be reliably attributed to debt. As long as the follower will give you credit, you will be able to get licenses and adventure in Skyrim.

DF as originally created will be able to reliably co-exist with SLS licenses.

If you don't want that feature, you can turn it off.

 

Not starving in a gag, should make the gag deal a bit easier to live with. It's not supposed to be so extreme.

There are workarounds, but they rely on the gag not being locked. Now that punishment has a cooldown you can already easily remove the gag and eat+drink ... if you can unlock it. But if the gag is locked, then paying the follower for unlocks will soon bankrupt you.

 

Follower sells items for you. This also relates to gags - and the SLS feature that can block trading completely when gagged - but also to other situations where you can't trade due to a mod that is heaping additional trade penalties on top of SLS. You can safely bet that the follower is still going to rip you off. You'll be penalized, but at least you will still be able to get something.

 

Fixing up states where DD won't let you equip items because you're wearing items is something the follower should do. It makes immersive sense. This can currently be worked around using the debug menu, but players sometimes struggle to work out what they need to equip and where.

 

Followers escaping from DDs... DCL and Devious Lore can both restrain followers. This breaks DF in a very obvious way. Those followers can't escape without help from the PC, but what if the PC is crippled by their own deals and the traps as well? And you're being charged for all the time they're bound? And of course the followers have no idea how to "act" as if they're bound, and just fight normally etc. It's not immersive, or fair, or interesting. Most people resolve this simply by excluding their followers from the traps, and I suspect that's still the best idea... But currently, if you thoughtlessly give your follower an armbinder to carry somehow they end up wearing it. That DD5 improves the impact of devices on followers only makes this more of a problem.

 

Every one of these issues got to where it is in the list because it's caused disproportionate and unintended disruption to test games. DF works best when unfortunate instances impair your money making ability, but don't take it away completely for an extended period. It either has to be a moderate imposition, or it has to be for a strictly limited time. It also needs to be reliably possible to get into and out of slavery.

 

When it works, DF slavery is a difficult experience, but something you can overcome. The cloak was one source of issues; it wasn't a problem in the earliest implementations. SLS licenses have created configuration difficulties that leave players feeling like they have to "cheat" to get anywhere at all - or spend hours watching SexLab play inappropriately selected scenes.

 

I don't enjoy a game where I have to go into the MCM to reconfigure options to work around some feature that ought to be enhancing your game, but is breaking it instead. Tuning the basic costs was always the issue with older DF, so much so that constantly messing about in the MCM seemed normal. I think that's mostly avoidable now, but there are still areas where it's hard to get a configuration that works at the start of a game, in the middle of a game, and later on, and also works when something unfortunate happens. Gags are currently excessively punishing and can easily trigger cascading scenarios. License purchase is another area where things can go almost unrecoverably wrong. Another area that causes issues is carry capacity. With a debuffed carry capacity, and mods that slow you down, or add devices that impair it further, builds that rely on heavy gear are simply unplayable, or at least, such poor choices that they are discouraged. Even a stealth build is marginal.

 

 

Slavery itself is going to get changes once those things are done; SLTR and SD+ hand-offs, and some improvements to the existing mechanics - the follower being able to sell is part of that. I'd like to see a DF enslavement where the follower can be more oppressive and controlling, if you want to enable it.

 

That's why the next items on the list are:

Spoiler

2.15.0 ???

  • external slavery - hand follower off to other mods for the enslavement mode, and get follower back when slavery ends;
    • Submissive Lola the Resubmission
    • SD+
    • Sold via Simple Slavery++

There's some subtext to this. To make external slavery work, I will need to review the existing implementation and there are likely to be subtle but pervasive changes.

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Hi!

 

Would it be at all possible to add a toggle that prevents the follower from being dismissed outside of the cities? That would work great with Sexlab Survival, since it has an option to forbid you from leaving cities without a follower. As an alternative, it could also listen for a couple of new events that would signal DF to either permit or deny dismissing all followers... though I'm not sure how the dialogue would work for that without being super vague.

 

I'd be happy to take a look at doing it myself, as well, if you want. I'm an avid scripter, but with no Papyrus experience, so I would need a basic idea of where in the mod to look. I should be able to figure out the patching/compiling pretty easy on my own.

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32 minutes ago, lolwutttt said:

Would it be at all possible to add a toggle that prevents the follower from being dismissed outside of the cities?

It's relatively trivial to add; mostly MCM busywork + some new dialog lines.

These things always take longer than intended, but it's probably worth the delay.

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I think I'm having some sort of Forcegreet issue (honestly complete guess) where the follower won't enslave even after debt gets ridiculously high (100k+ on a level 20 character with normal enslavement multipliers).  Is the a likely known issue here or is best bet starting a new game?

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7 hours ago, kylexf said:

I think I'm having some sort of Forcegreet issue (honestly complete guess) where the follower won't enslave even after debt gets ridiculously high (100k+ on a level 20 character with normal enslavement multipliers).  Is the a likely known issue here or is best bet starting a new game?

I wouldn't say it's a "known issue", but there was one report a bit similar. It's hard to say, because people rarely give sufficient detail of their setup to know whether it was something to do with another mod they had, a simple misconfiguration of DF, an SE conversion, or who knows what? They said it went away on a new game, but they might have changed some other things too.

 

Enslavement forcegreets weren't changed from the previous versions, so shouldn't suffer an upgrade issue.

 

 

If yours is stuck, maybe it's worth investigating a little further to confirm a cause/remedy with more certainty?

Maybe you could provide more detail on your configuration: what DF version was the original install, whether you have other possible conflicting mods, such as SL Approach, SLS, SLTR, etc, whether you're on SE, how much debt you have, what your debt limit is, whether you're in "endless mode", whether you set "skip to the end", etc.

Did you try sleeping?

How long has the debt been outstanding, etc?

 

My guess is that the cause is quest priority is too low, and some other mod is blocking it.

Whenever I've had a forcegreet not work in development, that was the reason.

 

It might be that I need to make a non-forcegreet workaround for this - so once you reach the point where you're over the limit, all regular DF dialogs lead to a "Let's work it out" discussion.

 

I take it you've never seen a "Let's work it out" dialog?

You should see one more or less every time you go over the debt limit.

 

If you want to do anything other than just make a new game and see what happens, then I need more information.

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I am using devious followers with EFF, and whenever I talk to a mercenary when I have a devious follower already, it automatically adds the mercenary to the party, bypassing any recruitment dialogue. It then makes the new follower the devious follower.

 

There is just the following line: "There's a debt that you owe. If I make you pay it, I'll get a reward. So, I'll follow you until I get my share.". I'm guessing this is supposed to be the devious follower delegating the collecting of the pay to the mercenary?

 

It makes for an odd situation when I have two mercenaries as followers, since they both act as the devious follower, and that line fires every time you talk to a different merc.

 

 

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1 hour ago, VampireKitten said:

There is just the following line: "There's a debt that you owe. If I make you pay it, I'll get a reward. So, I'll follow you until I get my share.". I'm guessing this is supposed to be the devious follower delegating the collecting of the pay to the mercenary?

This seems clear enough to me. It's happened because of your low willpower (and other factors).

The mercenary has decided to do exactly as they say.

 

I wouldn't have seen any bug here if it wasn't for the last line where you say it keeps on happening over and over because you have TWO mercenaries.

I almost didn't read that far!

 

 

This is a bug, for sure, though it has nothing to do with EFF specifically; it will likely happen with any framework that lets you have more than one follower.

Clearly, the mechanic was originally designed when there was no multi-follower support :)

 

I'll fix it for the next release.

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Having experimented with it a bit more, having multiple merc followers seems to be broken in some ways.

The only debt I had when I got the message of "There's a debt that you owe" was the 500 I got from hiring the other mercenary. This was done right at the start of a new game.
However, if I get the mercenary by paying him 500 gold, and after he becomes devious I give myself 500 debt with the debug options, the line doesnt trigger.

The line also triggers when I lower my debt to only 1 gold, with max willpower.

This may have something to do with the fact that it seems impossible to buy a second merc after I buy the first merc.
The option is there when I dont have enough gold, and they reject me, but if I have 500 gold I dont get the option to hire.

Interestingly, if I get the original merc by taking on the 500 debt, and then pay all of the debt (to dismissable, not the option with 1 gold left) I can hire the merc through normal means.

 

Ive tried hiring multiple mercs with devious followers disabled, and that seems to work just fine.

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45 minutes ago, VampireKitten said:

Ive tried hiring multiple mercs with devious followers disabled, and that seems to work just fine.

Just set all your vanilla mercenaries to be ignored by DF then.

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My follower gave me the plug deal, and one of the plugs with a bell attached. The bells irritate me no end, so I took it out and put in a normal plug instead - but soon after, the follower said the line about how he could see from the way I was walking I didn't have a plug, and increased the debt.

Are only certain plugs accepted for that deal?

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58 minutes ago, LlamaTheSecond said:

My follower gave me the plug deal, and one of the plugs with a bell attached. The bells irritate me no end, so I took it out and put in a normal plug instead - but soon after, the follower said the line about how he could see from the way I was walking I didn't have a plug, and increased the debt.

Are only certain plugs accepted for that deal?

 

Update: I swapped to a different plug (If I remember correctly I swapped from 'Plug (Anal) (Iron)' to 'Plug (Iron) (Anal)', if not it was the other way around) and the problem has stopped. I got both items via AddItemMenu, so my guess is that the first one was a leftover relic from an earlier DD release, probably missing the proper tags.

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8 hours ago, LlamaTheSecond said:

I got both items via AddItemMenu, so my guess is that the first one was a leftover relic from an earlier DD release, probably missing the proper tags.

It's also possible to mistakenly give yourself the render item directly via console. That's possibly what you did.

I don't think there are any broken plugs in DD at the moment. Hoods maybe...

 

Remove items you don't like from the LDC file and you won't be given them.

Use the Debug menu in DF to add DDs you need to satisfy the follower. They will come from the LDC list.

 

Some might say that simply swapping out an item that irritates you for a different one is "cheating".

You should purchase an alternate item from the follower, or a shop that sells DDs, and bear the expense. :) 

The following might be giving you annoying items on purpose, after all.

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I accepted the deal "beg for sex" but no new dialogue popped up allowing me to do so. I asked if I still had time to complete my tasks and it said I failed yesterday and the follower updated my debt. I tried using another means to have sex with the follower but that didn't seem to count.

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31 minutes ago, Crota said:

I tried using another means to have sex with the follower but that didn't seem to count.

It's not sex acts, but begging that the follower wants.

 

After the debt update, what happens when you ask the follower about time remaining again?

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8 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

Remove items you don't like from the LDC file and you won't be given them.

 

Where is this file?

 

I remember I had customized this file sometime last year, but then I migrated to SE and forgot about the list. (Whoops.)

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1 hour ago, Buridan said:

Where is this file?

It gets generated in Data\SKSE\Plugins\Lozeak Device Controller\Device Settings.json if you don't have one.

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Here's a preview of next release.

 

Changes:

  • replaced all the sex partner scanners
    • new general-purpose sex partner scanner - slavery sex should be reliable now.
    • new horse scanner for pony game
    • new guard scanner for Jarl game
  • can select sex preference for scanners.
  • overhauled the Jarl game (bug fixes, better timing, new dialogs, new dialog choices, new guard scanner, handles missing NPCs, supports dialogs for male PC).
  • fixed a bunch of buggy punishment conditions.
  • fixed issue with a blocking dialog for hirelings improperly detecting non-zero followers when follower frameworks present.
  • no strip keywords on the deal amulet, circlet and ring.
  • minor overhaul to rape system - now supports five-ways and better time management for events, with less delays and better bounded events.
  • fixed some script files that were missing from distribution.

 

Note that if you pick female only sex and don't have female guards in Jarl palaces, you should enable creature content, or Jarl game is a dull event.

 

Updated release is on the main page now.

 

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