Mods and Money!?

[Guest]

I Just want to put my two cents out there on paid mods, paywalls and Patreon. ( Not that anyone cares but I take a different stance than a lot of people)

 

 My opinion on this is it is a good thing. People should get paid for their work. Just because some modders do not have a Patreon or a paywall does not make them a better modder, or have better ethics in the gaming community. A modder requesting to get paid for the hours they put into a mod, whether it be hundreds or thousands of hours is very acceptable. ( I know I know you should get everything for free right?) 

 I have made mods and/or update mods from time to time and I have never had a Patreon, nor will I ever have one, but it is not because I feel that mods should be free all the time, there are 2 reasons why:

 

1. I am blessed with having a very good career, and modding to me is a hobby, like it is to most people
2. I have not put in the time like many others, like Ashal , CPU, Kimy and team, T.ara, and Goubo, just to name a few, and there are many many more

 

 Now you have a lot of very talented people that have made incredible mods that you have got hours of enjoyment out of, and 99.9 percent of them put them up for free, and some add a Patreon page for donations if you can. I think is fantastic, yet very few donate (compared to the amount of members), but will be the first to overload the mod page (the mod that you got for free by the way) with demands on what should be added, or what you do not like.

 

I sponsor a few modders monthly , and by no means does that make me a better member, I do it because I am able too. I understand that a lot of people are unable too, but if you buy a coffee for 2.50 at the store every day, why cant you give a dollar, one time to Lovers Lab, or your favorite modder that spent countless hours to make a mod that you have used thru 5 playthrus, I mean really a lot of us paid Bethesda 4.95 for Hearthfires ffs.

 

 Please do not take this as trying to shame people, because it is not meant that way, just think about it the next time you see a Patreon link on someone's page, or for Lovers Lab if you able to throw even a dollar that way..just please consider it.

 

 Finally I want to give a shout out to the often forgotten modders and they work the put in, the modders creating animations, often overlooked as to how important their animations are to make so many other mods work. Anub, Leito, Funnybiz, SirNibbles and Billy just to name a few and there are many more great ones

 

 Anyways that's just my two cents, support if you can, and if you cannot support with a donation, then a kind word about their mod goes a long ways instead of always a complaint.

 

EDIT: To fix Typos and to name a few animators cause its deserving

[Pfiffy]

LIKE! 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

LIKE! 

Speaking of someone putting in a lot of time Pfiffy, I think modding for SE would come to a quick stop without all the conversions you do.

[pinky6225]

52 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

My opinion on this is it is a good thing. People should get paid for their work. Just because some modders do not have a Patreon or a paywall does not make them a better modder, or have better ethics in the gaming community. A modder requesting to get paid for the hours they put into a mod, whether it be hundreds or thousands of hours is very acceptable. ( I know I know you should get everything for free right?)

Overall i agree with you as i seem to fall on this side of the argument when paid mods generally come up but to play devils advocate i think we have a few reasons why people expect mods to be free

 

1. Mods in the past were free

2. Its use at your own risk

3. Other than working out how to post a file somewhere that can be installed their is no barrier to starting

 

If you take money via donation (freely given) you are not beholden to the user to fix issues they find but assuming creator is a reasonable human being we dont like screwing people over so you will feel that you have to fix issues/provide support

 

If you take money via sale  then a whole host of other rules apply depending on where the purchase has taken place and you have to fix/provide support

 

so by commercialising would that deter people from starting?

[KoolHndLuke]

Funny, I had a similar thread and got accused of being a narcissist and/or shaming people for not endorsing more. If they're not willing to endorse, then you can imagine how well they will like paying even a dollar for each mod. I have endorsed like crazy, tried to help mod makers in any way I can, and donated some money to some while I can barely afford to pay my bills month to month. If I can do it, then everyone else sure as hell can.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, pinky6225 said:

Overall i agree with you as i seem to fall on this side of the argument when paid mods generally come up but to play devils advocate i think we have a few reasons why people expect mods to be free

 

1. Mods in the past were free

2. Its use at your own risk

3. Other than working out how to post a file somewhere that can be installed their is no barrier to starting

 

If you take money via donation (freely given) you are not beholden to the user to fix issues they find but assuming creator is a reasonable human being we dont like screwing people over so you will feel that you have to fix issues/provide support

 

If you take moeny via sale  then a whole host of other rules apply depending on where the purchase has taken place and you have to fix/provide support

 

so by commercialising would that deter people from starting?

I do understand where you are coming from, and you are right on the issues you mention. On the issue I really and trying to hit home at is the mods that have been around a while and everyone uses, Not all mods are deserving and you are right as to the sale of a mod opens a whole new can of worms

 

As far as "mods in the past were free", I get that, we as humans hate change, but everything needs to evolve sooner or later.

2 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Funny, I had a similar thread and got accused of being a narcissist and/or shaming people for not endorsing more. If their not willing to endorse, then you can imagine how well they will like paying even a dollar for each mod. I have endorsed like crazy, tried to help mod makers in any way I can, and donated some money to some while I can barely afford to pay my bills month to month. If I can do it, they sure as hell can.

 I bet. People get defensive on their opinions. As far as endorsing, I think most mods should get a endorsement if it is functional.  have downloaded many mods and decided it was not for me but still endorsed. I agree whether we love a mod or not, someone still put a lot of work into it.

 

" barely paying bills but able to donate now and then", that's is very cool that you do, kudos for that. I realized I have gone to a bar and spent 100 dollars for 4 hours of drunken fun, but after the 4 hours the funs over, so why cqan I donate a few bucks to something that's given me fun for years like someones mod

[Pfiffy]

9 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

Speaking of someone putting in a lot of time Pfiffy, I think modding for SE would come to a quick stop without all the conversions you do.

I don't think so... I really hope that I'm right with that. If it wasn't me, it would be someone else, that asks for permissions. I might be 'famous' for porting, but just for the fact that I do Uploads. It is not the porting itself. You spend far more time on creating a mod, than i spend on porting it. 

[Pfiffy]

22 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

Funny, I had a similar thread and got accused of being a narcissist and/or shaming people for not endorsing more. If their not willing to endorse, then you can imagine how well they will like paying even a dollar for each mod. I have endorsed like crazy, tried to help mod makers in any way I can, and donated some money to some while I can barely afford to pay my bills month to month. If I can do it, then everyone else sure as hell can.

 

 

One thing is buying a mod like a DLC, the other thing is suppoting a modder by making donations.

 

It is also one thing to sell your mod and in some cases doing it as a job, the other thing is to offer it for free and getting a donation for it.

 

Well, I also have problems to pay my bills, that is why I don't pay for mods. It is a question of priorities, and I see nothing wrong with that. If you can't affort finanacial support, you might be able to help modders with other things. And if it is just some good words. 

But I have no problem with modders having their mods behind a pay wall, because the have to pay their rent, too. What I don't want to see , is that modders lock up their resources because someone else get a penny for using their assets. If sharing stops, we all get into trouble.    

[Kimy]

Thank you, Caden! Much appreciated, and a welcome change in tone from some members who think that even as much as putting out the kind of tip jar the way I and some others are practicing it, is a crime against the spirit of modding. I actually posted a lengthy statement about this topic in my Cursed Loot thread a while back. I shall cross-post it here, for it seems very fitting:

 

Personally? I believe in the open source model. I publish my code with pride and hope it help others to learn coding and/or gets used to make more mods. What I don't subscribe to is the notion of some people that modders have no right whatsoever to expect compensation. They say "Mods are meant to be free" and usually mean "I want you to give me free stuff!" Me? I live in a "give and take" world. If you use mods, give -something- back in return for all the hard work that went into making them. Either contribute to making mods yourself if you can, or throw a few bucks to your favorite modders every now and then, to keep them going. No ecosystem has ever thrived by a few giving and everybody else just taking.

 

Yes, modding almost always starts as a hobby. And for many that's what it remains. And that's 100% fine. But the basic idea of allowing modders to turn their hobby into a full or part-time business is that it would keep them able and motivated to produce more and better mods - which I believe is not a bad thing, no? At least not if it's done right. No, Beth's model wasn't it. But there are -many- companies out there that release GPL software and still make some money. Free software and financial compensation don't rule each other out. At least not in theory. In practice, people rarely pay up, unless you force them. Which is a pity, because that's what makes people invent things like paywalled mods. And I think we all agree that this is undesirable.

 

My mods have hundreds of thousands of combined downloads (DCL alone sits at about 300,000). If people would have thrown me a quarter for each download I could comfortably consider this my job and justify working full time on it. The irony is that I am basically doing this anyway, just sans the income. A lot of people don't know that, but the reason why I can put an insane amount of hours into making all these mods for you guys is that I am a stay-at-home mom, so I have more spare time available than a person commuting two hours to an eight hour office job every day. I guess many people picture the average modder as a single person coding some mods after coming home from work, in their evenings or weekends, because that beats sitting alone on a sofa and watching boring TV shows. The fun thing is that I couldn't even do that, because I have a family around at these times, and I can't code naughty stuff with kids running around, peeking over my shoulder and generally preferring me to spend my time with them instead of staring at a screen.

But consider this: I am maybe 2-3 years away from the point when I don't have to taxi kids to and from school, clean up after them, fixing their lunch, and drive them to play-dates and activities. That's the point when most women in my place get more or less subtly asked by their loved ones something like "Honey, have you ever considered looking for a job again?". And even if that doesn't happen, you will inevitably start pondering yourself if you shouldn't put your hard-earned degrees to productive use again instead of watching an empty house. In that case, I still won't be able to keep doing what I am doing on weekends and evenings, but I will lose the window of time I am currently using for making mods. In other words, somebody else will have to write bondage mods for the tens of thousands of people that obviously like them.

  

I don't know, maybe the thought of allowing modders to monetize their work isn't THAT evil?

 

Just food for thought...

 

 

[KoolHndLuke]

15 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

But I have no problem with modders having their mods behind a pay wall, because the have to pay their rent, too.

If even just 5-10% of users donated to their favorite author or two....one time, then there would be much less reason for them to want to require payment for their mods and thus everything would remain free and open more or less- the way it has for years. But, it will never happen. So, I don't hold a grudge against any author that does it. In the end, the community has no one else to blame if everything goes to paid modding.

[Pfiffy]

4 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

If even just 5-10% of users donated to their favorite author or two....one time, then there would be much less reason for them to want to require payment for their mods and thus everything would remain free and open more or less- the way it has for years. But, it will never happen. So, I don't hold a grudge against any author that does it. In the end, the community has no one else to blame if everything goes to paid modding.

I guess, if we have to pay for mods, we would appeciate the work behind them a bit more. And the modder would have less trouble with overloaded loadorders and the problems that come with it.... 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

 

 

One thing is buying a mod like a DLC, the other thing is suppoting a modder by making donations.

 

It is also one thing to sell your mod and in some cases doing it as a job, the other thing is to offer it for free and getting a donation for it.

 

Well, I also have problems to pay my bills, that is why I don't pay for mods. It is a question of priorities, and I see nothing wrong with that. If you can't affort finanacial support, you might be able to help modders with other things. And if it is just some good words. 

But I have no problem with modders having their mods behind a pay wall, because the have to pay their rent, too. What I don't want to see , is that modders lock up their resources because someone else get a penny for using their assets. If sharing stops, we all get into trouble.    

I still think you should have a Patreon as well, you contribute so much to so many mods, just the converting to SE alone, and your willingness to help others without anything expected in return

12 minutes ago, Kimy said:

Thank you, Caden! Much appreciated, and a welcome change in tone from some members who think that even as much as putting out the kind of tip jar the way I and some others are practicing it, is a crime against the spirit of modding. I actually posted a lengthy statement about this topic in my Cursed Loot thread a while back. I shall cross-post it here, for it seems very fitting:

 

Personally? I believe in the open source model. I publish my code with pride and hope it help others to learn coding and/or gets used to make more mods. What I don't subscribe to is the notion of some people that modders have no right whatsoever to expect compensation. They say "Mods are meant to be free" and usually mean "I want you to give me free stuff!" Me? I live in a "give and take" world. If you use mods, give -something- back in return for all the hard work that went into making them. Either contribute to making mods yourself if you can, or throw a few bucks to your favorite modders every now and then, to keep them going. No ecosystem has ever thrived by a few giving and everybody else just taking.

 

Yes, modding almost always starts as a hobby. And for many that's what it remains. And that's 100% fine. But the basic idea of allowing modders to turn their hobby into a full or part-time business is that it would keep them able and motivated to produce more and better mods - which I believe is not a bad thing, no? At least not if it's done right. No, Beth's model wasn't it. But there are -many- companies out there that release GPL software and still make some money. Free software and financial compensation don't rule each other out. At least not in theory. In practice, people rarely pay up, unless you force them. Which is a pity, because that's what makes people invent things like paywalled mods. And I think we all agree that this is undesirable.

 

My mods have hundreds of thousands of combined downloads (DCL alone sits at about 300,000). If people would have thrown me a quarter for each download I could comfortably consider this my job and justify working full time on it. The irony is that I am basically doing this anyway, just sans the income. A lot of people don't know that, but the reason why I can put an insane amount of hours into making all these mods for you guys is that I am a stay-at-home mom, so I have more spare time available than a person commuting two hours to an eight hour office job every day. I guess many people picture the average modder as a single person coding some mods after coming home from work, in their evenings or weekends, because that beats sitting alone on a sofa and watching boring TV shows. The fun thing is that I couldn't even do that, because I have a family around at these times, and I can't code naughty stuff with kids running around, peeking over my shoulder and generally preferring me to spend my time with them instead of staring at a screen.

But consider this: I am maybe 2-3 years away from the point when I don't have to taxi kids to and from school, clean up after them, fixing their lunch, and drive them to play-dates and activities. That's the point when most women in my place get more or less subtly asked by their loved ones something like "Honey, have you ever considered looking for a job again?". And even if that doesn't happen, you will inevitably start pondering yourself if you shouldn't put your hard-earned degrees to productive use again instead of watching an empty house. In that case, I still won't be able to keep doing what I am doing on weekends and evenings, but I will lose the window of time I am currently using for making mods. In other words, somebody else will have to write bondage mods for the tens of thousands of people that obviously like them.

  

I don't know, maybe the thought of allowing modders to monetize their work isn't THAT evil?

 

Just food for thought...

 

 

Your welcome and I do believe that a lot of people who get upset about the thought of a donation is because they have never truly put endless hours into something, that to some might seem like a simple mod but in reality, keeps you up at night when things go wrong, again to each there own, and when people are unable to pay for a mod that is completely understood, and not everyone can contribute as we all know, but even going to your mod page and seeing a comment that simple says " Thanks for all your hard work, its much appreciated" goes a long ways

9 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

If even just 5-10% of users donated to their favorite author or two....one time, then there would be much less reason for them to want to require payment for their mods and thus everything would remain free and open more or less- the way it has for years. But, it will never happen. So, I don't hold a grudge against any author that does it. In the end, the community has no one else to blame if everything goes to paid modding.

Well said

[Pfiffy]

1 minute ago, -Caden- said:

I still think you should have a Patreon as well, you contribute so much to so many mods, just the converting to SE alone, and your willingness to help others without anything expected in return

 

For what? I'm not offering something that really belongs to me. The worst case would be that I will no longer get permissions to upload something and have to take down the things I have already posted. For two reasons: some might refuse it because they might loose their share, others because they think, I make money with stuff they offered for free. And for further releases I'm depending on permissions. 

[worik]

27 minutes ago, Kimy said:

I am maybe 2-3 years away from the point when I don't have to taxi kids to and from school, clean up after them, fixing their lunch, and drive them to play-dates and activities.

Sounds like your kids would then be at that age, when they buy their own computer, their own games... and when they are at THAT age, when they discover the truely cool mods for some old games like Skyrim.... and want to support that cool modder "Kimy"...

Chances are, you'll get todays pocket money back that way

[Ernest Lemmingway]

The only paid mods I'm opposed to are the ones that pay to the company that produced the game. They already got their money and don't deserve a single penny more.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

2 million accounts on LL, how many are supporters? Now, how many of those supporters support other modders? There is a difference as well, many support Wicked Whims (Sims 4) but not LL itself, I find that kinda shocking. I guess if Ashal were to lock portions of the site to "donations" then we may see a rise in how many people support LL. Without LL, most of the modders here would be split into other websites. So LL must come first IMO.

You right, and if they had to go to other sites, most other sites do not allow the content that LL allows.

 

Funny story, a couple weeks ago I was reading a steam forum talking about LL and one commentor on there said something to the effect of " Lovers lab has mods like defeat and Sexlab and all other kinds of sexually gross mods, I don't understand why anyone would ever go there" Myself and a couple others replied with " How do YOU know what mods Lovers Labs has if you have never been there"...still no answer back yet ?

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

If even just 5-10% of users donated to their favorite author or two....one time, then there would be much less reason for them to want to require payment for their mods and thus everything would remain free and open more or less- the way it has for years. But, it will never happen. So, I don't hold a grudge against any author that does it. In the end, the community has no one else to blame if everything goes to paid modding.

Did you ever get that armor mod going you was working on? Wasn't it a mod about clothing change or random outfits like bandits?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

The only paid mods I'm opposed to are the ones that pay to the company that produced the game. They already got their money and don't deserve a single penny more.

I would have to agree with you, Skyrim for example was released a broken game, and how many modders spent thousands of hours just fixing what Bethesda didn't? Skyrim would not have the following it has had for so many years now if it was not for the modding community.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

For what? I'm not offering something that really belongs to me. The worst case would be that I will no longer get permissions to upload something and have to take down the things I have already posted. For two reasons: some might refuse it because they might loose their share, others because they think, I make money with stuff they offered for free. And for further releases I'm depending on permissions. 

I see where your coming from but it still doesn't take away from all the work you put in as well

[Pfiffy]

1 minute ago, -Caden- said:

I would have to agree with you, Skyrim for example was released a broken game, and how many modders spent thousands of hours just fixing what Bethesda didn't? Skyrim would not have the following it has had for so many years now if it was not for the modding community.

Well, i woudn't pay for the stuff they offer in CC. But if they come along with things like hearthfire i might consider it.... 

[KoolHndLuke]

9 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

Did you ever get that armor mod going you was working on? Wasn't it a mod about clothing change or random outfits like bandits?

I put it on the back burner- so to speak.? Studying animations right now so maybe I can make some new ones this Summer. Will not rest until I can slap Lydia or Piper for doing something stupid and then maybe bend them over the knee and spank them when they are "bad".

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, KoolHndLuke said:

I put it on the back burner- so to speak.? Studying animations right now so maybe I can make some new ones this Summer. Will not rest until I can slap Lydia or Piper for doing something stupid and then maybe bend them over the knee and spank them when they are "mouthy".

HAHA I look forward to trying them out when you get them finished

[Ernest Lemmingway]

3 minutes ago, Pfiffy said:

Well, i woudn't pay for the stuff they offer in CC. But if they come along with things like hearthfire i might consider it.... 

I wouldn't shell out for Hearthfire again, myself. Compared to Dawnguard and Dragonborn, it didn't add enough to be worth paying for. But for true DLC, not the "mini-DLC" they call their paid mods on the CC, I'd pay something. Not much, but something.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Alkpaz said:

2 million accounts on LL, how many are supporters? Now, how many of those supporters support other modders? There is a difference as well, many support Wicked Whims (Sims 4) but not LL itself, I find that kinda shocking. I guess if Ashal were to lock portions of the site to "donations" then we may see a rise in how many people support LL. Without LL, most of the modders here would be split into other websites. So LL must come first IMO.

 

https://www.patreon.com/wickedwoohoo/overview 3,183 (excluding myself)

 

https://www.patreon.com/onikikay/overview 718 (did support at one time)

 

https://www.patreon.com/loverslab 378 (including myself) 

 

https://www.patreon.com/kimy/overview 66 (including myself)

 

https://www.patreon.com/darkconsole/overview 14 (including myself)

 

https://www.patreon.com/Ed86/overview 34 (did support at one time) 

 

The donation rate is pretty low and I would guess the ratio between "free members" and "paid subscribers" on Nexus is about the same, with even less donating to mod authors there, something I think Dark0ne noticed and prompted him to start a rewards program. 

wow I didn't see those numbers the first time around.

The way I decide who or how much is usually a budget, like a mod that is finished and has a patreon I might look at the mod as a DLC like how much I would pay for it as a DLC and I will make a one time donation of that amount.

If Its a mod that is still being updated I will pay what I feel would be the cost if it was a DLC then after the first months payment goes thru I will change it to a certain amount per month to help support the development

And then there is Lovers Lab, that one I support every month that same amount to help Ashal (like many others do as well)

[Pfiffy]

5 minutes ago, -Caden- said:

I see where your coming from but it still doesn't take away from all the work you put in as well

There are others, that deserve more attetion than I get right now. Take Tasairis and Lazygirl, without them CF has not been possible. DD SE was not possible without Javi who recompiled the .dll, Zarantha edited the scripts for DCL. I have just put things together and brought them on the way. I'm feeling overrated for the ports themself...