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The last of us II

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After the first trailer of Uncharted4 was released, Neil druckmann once publicly stated that the work would be the darkest in the series, and its subtitle A thief's end seemed to conform to this statement.

At the end of the game, Drake and his family have a happy ending.

I believe that someone stopped Neil druckmann's original intention.

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@Reginald_001 It's not the game itself that has such blatant SJW tactics but Naughty Dog and Neil Cuckmann in their tweets. As well as games urinalists and fanbois who gave it perfect scores and keep deriding anyone who dislikes it (with the overwhelming majority of fans not liking it, apparently).

 

I don't have a bone in this fight. I'm just laughing at how Cuckmann, ND, and the "professional" critics keep trying to defend this game and paint everyone who dislikes it as the usual list of SJW name calling. Even a senior editor for IGN calling them "incels" in an official tweet of her own. This isn't even touching on the defamation lawsuits ND will be facing for their illegal DMCA strikes. And I'm laughing especially hard now that the official sub-reddit has turned on the company.

 

That said, I'm done with it. I don't care if people like it or not. I just care that another game studio and SIEA thought they could get away with everything they did and seeing it backfire so spectacularly is all I wanted.

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7 hours ago, Ernest Lemmingway said:

@Reginald_001 It's not the game itself that has such blatant SJW tactics but Naughty Dog and Neil Cuckmann in their tweets. As well as games urinalists and fanbois who gave it perfect scores and keep deriding anyone who dislikes it (with the overwhelming majority of fans not liking it, apparently).

 

I don't have a bone in this fight. I'm just laughing at how Cuckmann, ND, and the "professional" critics keep trying to defend this game and paint everyone who dislikes it as the usual list of SJW name calling. Even a senior editor for IGN calling them "incels" in an official tweet of her own. This isn't even touching on the defamation lawsuits ND will be facing for their illegal DMCA strikes. And I'm laughing especially hard now that the official sub-reddit has turned on the company.

 

That said, I'm done with it. I don't care if people like it or not. I just care that another game studio and SIEA thought they could get away with everything they did and seeing it backfire so spectacularly is all I wanted.

At the rate this is going, you won't have anything left to enjoy... when all of this is said and done.

I don't know anything about the background. I purposefully ignore twitter and social media.

It's all just fucking chatter.

 

Blasting a game for what makers did/do/have done is (of course) bullshit.

Many of our greatest artists were very, very bad people, with very very bad things on their conscience...

 

The game is gorgeous and plays gorgeous and I'm having a fucking blast with it.

Fuck  politics.

Fuck identity politics.

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26 minutes ago, Reginald_001 said:

At the rate this is going, you won't have anything left to enjoy... when all of this is said and done.

I don't know anything about the background. I purposefully ignore twitter and social media.

It's all just fucking chatter.

 

Blasting a game for what makers did/do/have done is (of course) bullshit.

Many of our greatest artists were very, very bad people, with very very bad things on their conscience...

 

The game is gorgeous and plays gorgeous and I'm having a fucking blast with it.

Fuck  politics.

Fuck identity politics.

The world is a big place, one filled with so many things. Many of said things are cultural products from other lands besides one's place of origin and from times long past (much of which is accessible for no additional cost online, completely legally, at that). There is little reason to worry about discarding a few series or even outputs from entire manufacturing companies when there are others available, well, unless one lives in an authoritarian nation which blocks foreign imports due to the corrupting influence of outside cultures.

 

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15 hours ago, Reginald_001 said:

At the rate this is going, you won't have anything left to enjoy... when all of this is said and done.

I don't know anything about the background. I purposefully ignore twitter and social media.

It's all just fucking chatter.

 

Blasting a game for what makers did/do/have done is (of course) bullshit.

Many of our greatest artists were very, very bad people, with very very bad things on their conscience...

 

The game is gorgeous and plays gorgeous and I'm having a fucking blast with it.

Fuck  politics.

Fuck identity politics.

And where did I say I was blasting the game? I said I don't care if people like or dislike it.

 

No, I'm blasting Naughty Dog, Cuckmann, games urinalists, as well as SIEA for outright breaking the law with their illegal DMCA strikes, for the lazy and horrid writing, and for attacking the people who dislike it by cherry picking the facts and ignoring everything that disproves their story. This pattern is one gamers have had to deal with since someone first thought up the conspiracy theory of GG. There's already a petition (yeah, like those ever work) with nearly forty-thousand signatures to get ND to change the story in DLC because so many people hate the plot. The game has barely been out a week and there's already a petition with a signature count in the five-figure range.

 

Also don't be so certain this game is the hit the media wants to paint it as. They're quoting gross sales, not net, so we have no idea how many people returned it. And since we don't know how much this game cost to create, we also don't know how many copies it will have to sell to turn a profit. Nor can we know just yet. It's too soon to tell whether this game will become the classic its predecessor is or if it's going to fade into obscurity once everything dies down.

 

I'm dropping out of this thread before I say something I'm going to regret.

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On 6/27/2020 at 1:14 AM, Reginald_001 said:

At the rate this is going, you won't have anything left to enjoy... when all of this is said and done.

I don't know anything about the background. I purposefully ignore twitter and social media.

It's all just fucking chatter.

 

Blasting a game for what makers did/do/have done is (of course) bullshit.

Many of our greatest artists were very, very bad people, with very very bad things on their conscience...

 

The game is gorgeous and plays gorgeous and I'm having a fucking blast with it.

Fuck  politics.

Fuck identity politics.

 

Avoiding the truth because whatever phase of bipolar bear bounce around you're in and refuse to stop projecting onto everyone you interact with does no one any favors because you're in literal denial. It's a badly badly written game. It's mechanically competent at best and fits the niche it built and that's about it.

 

The one single area you can unilaterally praise this game for raising breaking and fucking the bar is playability options. Disabled peeps have never had a more thorough and comprehensive set of options.

 

But that's it.

 

Your stance is fine. Saying anyone else needs to ignore the obvious when it's now coming to light that Naughty Dog is basically the same as Ubi$haft up to and including rape of employees is abject bullshit. No they don't. It's also got jack shit do with identity politics, and everything to do with literal abuse of the publishing system, access media and legitimate critical review and end-user critique.

 

Secondly if you haven't been doing any research how the fuck do you know it has anything to do with politics? Because it doesn't. In the coming months naughty Dog will be dealing with same consequences activision and ubishaft are and all the twitter virtue in the world ain't gonna do shit about legal ramifications.

 

It's a badly written game, there's not even an argument surrounding that because even the defenders admit that and whether you like it or not anyone else dislikes it or not is immaterial to shit execution of basic storytelling principles and utter and complete removal of any player agency. Those are factual, and you can opine endlessly for days on why and how much constitutes bad versus good on a sliding scale, but you can't argue ND and Sony have violated both their customers and their responsibilities as entertainment makers and more importantly storytellers whom have deliberately hid behind marginalization while marginalizing their own employees on a daily basis. They have lied, they have censored and they've forced both employees and customers to tow their line and blacklisted and shut down legitimate objective criticism in addition to making a childish as fuck morality fable and a literal mary sue antiprotagonist.

 

By all means like all of that behavior and the game, but that like ends with you and last time I checked you aren't the arbiter of why it's disliked, and at this point sounds more like buyers remorse than factual defense.

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Most of the negative reactions don't even seem to remotely have anything to do with any Identitiarian issues but as is inevitably in the case of releases steeped in such, they are used as a shield from any and all valid criticism (hence why some people groan as soon as 'Representation' is mentioned before story at the reveal of any new work of fiction as it means that knocking the work at all will be in response to what the writing crew imagines in novel but has been getting around for decades if not centuries despite their claims that they are the ones who invented the wheel.

It is especially strange with The Last of Us since the DLC which revealed that Ellie was closer to Ellen Page than Naughty Dog was willing to admit was very well received. Why would it be an issue now of all times?

 

Here is another take which has nothing to do with any Identity Politics whatsoever.

Spoiler

 

 

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On 6/27/2020 at 2:25 PM, Ernest Lemmingway said:

There's already a petition (yeah, like those ever work) with nearly forty-thousand signatures to get ND to change the story in DLC because so many people hate the plot

I just wanted remind us that people cried about the forced relationship (Hetro) in AC: Odyssey DLC1 and UbiSoft actually made changes - so it's possible to get a developer to make changes. I doubt TLOU2 would be 'fixable' in comparison because a DLC in a game (AC:O) with very light story elements isn't the same as a narrative driven game whose perceived shortcomings are integrated throughout. It would take a total rewrite to please those folks.

 

I was beyond the AC:O part that was changed, so I still haven't seen what the actual changes/outcome were/was. All that stink was for a few 'LG'bt types since a Bi or Trans couldn't actually be addressed due to the 2 PC choices being male or female (which already allowed 'LGB't choices throughout the game). If UbiSoft dropped all types of romantic/sexual relationships in Valhalla, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

 

The squeaky wheel doesn't always get the grease - sometimes it gets replaced. Another way to look at it - a few can ruin it for all.

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It might be more effective if the disgruntled players asked for an extra alternate ending as a compromise to slagging off the game altogether or pushing for changing the single ending. 

 

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So...Soyny and Neutered Dog will now send their goons at you if you write a critical review of their crap?
*clap...clap...clap* 

 

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In my opinion, if people want a good story game during a zombie apocalypse, The Walking Dead series from Telltale is much, much better. It hat its own up and downs but the overarching story is much more compelling, tackling with themes of moral choices in a world where the right choice sometimes gets you or people you care about killed and making the wrong choices will sometimes let you live another day. The antagonists all have their own way of dealing with the new world, in most cases they adopt the latter stance on many issues. A 'revenge bad' storyline doesn't really fit into a postapocalyptic wasteland because there's much worse shit going on on a daily basis.

 

I think the TV series of Walking Dead also had a really nice scene in that regard, despite the series itself being heavily flawed. It's about a little girl going off the deep end and not being able to cope with the zombie apocalypse, ending up stabbing her own sister to prove that no one dies anymore because they all come back. The solution the protagonist of that scene comes up with was to shoot the girl in the head after telling her to look at the nice flowers - obviously a wrong choice, strictly morally speaking, but understandable and rational considering the world they now live in, which makes the choice even more gruesome. Especially given the context that it was a mother who'd lost her own child to the apocalypse. There are no psychiatric wards or even that many doctors around anymore to give the person that had a mental breakdown through no fault of their own, the care and help they'd need. But you can't exactly travel with someone who might end up shanking you at any time.

 

Simply showing people dying in horrifying ways and then smugly asking the player 'hehe, feel bad yet?' isn't exactly story telling. Many games before TLoU2 had given the faceless goons character by having them have conversations and such you could eavesdrop on. It's a nice touch, to be sure, but it doesn't exactly carry the narrative, especially if you give the player no option to choose non-lethal methods.

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@GrimReaper

 

The first two seasons of TWD on AMC were the best for that very same reason. Especially in the second season with Sofia being lost up to finding her. It really showed that under any circumstances, things could go wrong and it wasn't always a happy ending. Unfortunately that show has been on a decline since the 3rd season and has never gained much momentum in my opinion.

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9 hours ago, GrimReaper said:

obviously a wrong choice

Sociopathy during a continual life or death struggle is literally a moral decision.

 

do you stab baby hitler?

 

right in the face. three times.

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1 hour ago, endgameaddic†ion said:

@GrimReaper

 

The first two seasons of TWD on AMC were the best for that very same reason. Especially in the second season with Sofia being lost up to finding her. It really showed that under any circumstances, things could go wrong and it wasn't always a happy ending. Unfortunately that show has been on a decline since the 3rd season and has never gained much momentum in my opinion.

It improved a bit after they've sent Scott Gimple to ruin FTWD instead (which he did).

 

1 hour ago, 27X said:

Sociopathy during a continual life or death struggle is literally a moral decision.

 

 

 

 

right in the face. three times.

It's not, though. Which incidentally was also the point of TLoU - there's a bit of foreshadowing at the end when Ellie and Joel talk about killing few to save many and how it's a shitty solution. The Fireflies had a noble goal, to save humanity from the fungal infection that turned everything to shit, but they were immoral because they had no problem sacrificing Ellie to achieve that. It wasn't even guaranteed to work and even if it did, it's hard to imagine the Fireflies wouldn't have used the cure to gain political power. Joel meanwhile also pursued a noble goal, to save a loved one from certain death, but he went on a psychotic rampage to achieve that. It's a lukewarm take on the trolley problem with the added bonus that humanity wouldn't actually need a cure to take back earth if they weren't as selfish as they are, the community Tommy is a part of is proof of that.

 

Most people that played TLoU probably knew that what Joel did was questionable at best but because they've bonded with Ellie and Joel, no fucks were given. They wanted to see Ellie live, just as Joel did. Joel also had that whole trauma thing going on about some dumbfuck solider taking away his daughter, so it's very understandable that after letting Ellie into his heart, he'd do everything to prevent the same situation from occuring again. Each character had solid motivations doing what they did, which made it a compelling story. While also showing that love can be a devastating force of destruction.

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Actually it is entirely a moral decision. The human race isn't necessary for the continuation of _______, and that's one of things Hennig highlighted. Humanity was no longer necessary and humanity as it was heading both morally and biologically was actually the largest vector for the fungus to spread and propagate. The quandary was also personal as obviously the game played entirely on, but humanity surviving wasn't and isn't necessary, and Hennig maybe even went a little overboard pointing that out.

 

The individual people wanting to live got you playing the game to completion, but they weren't necessary for even the game to exist as it did. (Ironically enough, Sony's next apoc game will feature a cat going through the apocalypse, not people; people will be both villain and set piece for the cat's journey) The first game touched on this pretty hard, Joel especially had to wrestle with the future and past decisions as an active agent to both gameplay and theme.

 

None of this is present in 2, it;s literally two selfish assholes fucking up everything around them for no discernible reason. Morality has been replaced with MUH FEELS paraded as equal or superior to morality and the game makes zero attempt to set anything else in any other direction. There are literally over 20 "coincidences" of happenstance that the characters just flail through and you're supposed to care because the voice actors are doing angry or sad voice while these inexplcibaly convenient coincedences are happening and there are no decision or even motivation paths here, there are NO choices, only dialog about why the character is going to _______ and then maybe dialog about why did you ______.

 

A literal child wrote this shit and there is no moral quandary because the payer has no agency is what occurs, they only press buttons as commanded and get dialog as consequences and half the time those consequences don't even match that dialog.  There literal a dozen characters that have sad monolog and then literally right after that their head is literally exploded, and none of it deals in or with consequences of their or the groups' actions. It's "sad thing _____" and then dead. A dozen. Hard to formulate or present a morality tale where halfway through the part leading to the morality part the character literally explodes, and after about the fourth one it becomes a drinking game.

 

As maudlin and simplistic as the first game was, it paved the road evenly and let you understand both sides, the second makes no attempt for you to care or even  understand despite forcing you to play both sides to progress.

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6 hours ago, 27X said:

 

 

(Ironically enough, Sony's next apoc game will feature a cat going through the apocalypse, not people; people will be both villain and set piece for the cat's journey) 

 

 

Is there going to be a sequel to Tokyo Jungle now where they finally find the long lost upright primates who will turn out to be the real monster all along? That would be far more disappointing than simply never really finding out how they all went extinct at once.

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On 7/4/2020 at 9:49 AM, 27X said:

Actually it is entirely a moral decision. The human race isn't necessary for the continuation of _______, and that's one of things Hennig highlighted. Humanity was no longer necessary and humanity as it was heading both morally and biologically was actually the largest vector for the fungus to spread and propagate. The quandary was also personal as obviously the game played entirely on, but humanity surviving wasn't and isn't necessary, and Hennig maybe even went a little overboard pointing that out.

 

The individual people wanting to live got you playing the game to completion, but they weren't necessary for even the game to exist as it did. (Ironically enough, Sony's next apoc game will feature a cat going through the apocalypse, not people; people will be both villain and set piece for the cat's journey) The first game touched on this pretty hard, Joel especially had to wrestle with the future and past decisions as an active agent to both gameplay and theme.

 

None of this is present in 2, it;s literally two selfish assholes fucking up everything around them for no discernible reason. Morality has been replaced with MUH FEELS paraded as equal or superior to morality and the game makes zero attempt to set anything else in any other direction. There are literally over 20 "coincidences" of happenstance that the characters just flail through and you're supposed to care because the voice actors are doing angry or sad voice while these inexplcibaly convenient coincedences are happening and there are no decision or even motivation paths here, there are NO choices, only dialog about why the character is going to _______ and then maybe dialog about why did you ______.

 

A literal child wrote this shit and there is no moral quandary because the payer has no agency is what occurs, they only press buttons as commanded and get dialog as consequences and half the time those consequences don't even match that dialog.  There literal a dozen characters that have sad monolog and then literally right after that their head is literally exploded, and none of it deals in or with consequences of their or the groups' actions. It's "sad thing _____" and then dead. A dozen. Hard to formulate or present a morality tale where halfway through the part leading to the morality part the character literally explodes, and after about the fourth one it becomes a drinking game.

 

As maudlin and simplistic as the first game was, it paved the road evenly and let you understand both sides, the second makes no attempt for you to care or even  understand despite forcing you to play both sides to progress.

It's a broader philosphical argument, not necessarily a moral one, in my opinion. Humanity isn't necessary isn't a moral assesment. Which obviously questions the goal of the Fireflies because they're arguing that saving humanity is worth the cost, while Joel thinks it isn't because the only thing you need are a couple of people who you love. Still, the game doesn't make a definitive statement about the broader trolley problem, even if it might nudge the player in a certain direction, it doesn't go 'YOU WERE WRONG/RIGHT FOR DOING THIS'.

 

I agree with you on TLoU2, however. The people that like it seem either to be in awe about the simple message 'REVENGE BAD' or the idea that their expectations were subverted. You can make a story about two selfish assholes fucking it up for everyone else but if that's all you're ever going to talk about in the story it gets old quick. Druckmann at least seems to have understood this because he's constantly trying to emotionally manipulate (LOOK A PREGNANT WOMAN HAD TO DIE FOR THIS. AND WHAT ABOUT THIS DOG? SURE HE ATTACKED YOU BUT LET ME SHOW YOU IN A FLASHBACK WHAT A NICE BALL OF CUTESY FLUFF DOGS NORMALLY ARE, FEEL BAD YET?) the player. This however falls short because if you don't emphasize with the characters, any emotional weight is lost. A similar thing happened in Telltale's The Walking Dead 2, where I had a hard time caring about the new characters because they were fucking idiots for no good reason.

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What I don't get about this outrage culture, is there is this weird need for them to confirm to themselves they are the majority opinion. I think it's a fragility thing. I see it with Trumptards and far right conspiracy theorists too. Where they are extremely vocal about their opinion and constantly searching for those that agree, like they constantly need validation of their opinion as if deep down they are not really sure.

 

Like I was on Youtube in the comments on some TLOU 2 videos and they are actually convinced that 90% of people who bought the game disliked it and that the majority of people are trying to return it. No actual evidence of any of this, but they need to believe it for some reason. It's just weird to me, that this same demographic has to constantly throw out feelers to make sure they are in line with what they are supposed to be mad about. If you say you liked it in the comments they all swarm you to drown you out and scream their opinions so loudly they believe it's just them out there again.

 

If you watch a twitch stream you will see these guys in the chat too. Almost giddy waiting to see if the streamer will hate it like them. "Game is complete trash wait til he see's what happens". Streamer beats the game and say's it was good 8.5 out of 10. Chat - "excuse me, howwww, it's so baaaaddd". What these guy's don't get is the rest of the world is just exhausted by them cause you can't argue with these dense idiots. You can show them the sky is blue and they will argue it's brown to you. It's just a waste of time.

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43 minutes ago, Porter_92 said:

If you say you liked it in the comments they all swarm you to drown you out and scream their opinions so loudly they believe it's just them out there again.

I dared saying I liked it in *this* thread. So yup, spot on.

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