I can understand that, I feel the same way.
It seems to me that the current phase has no common thread and that there is too much fan service. In addition, there are too many implementations that are rather unbalanced, so that you can introduce new characters, but fail to connect them into a larger whole. With Tony Stark, Steve Rogers and Nattie Romanov, 3 of the original Avengers are gone that you had a connection to over the years, Thor makes Thor things, Hawkeye will probably pass his bow and Bruce Banner probably too. I'm having a hard time connecting with the new characters. Marvel should have stopped after Endgame and just a few solo films where they can keep telling the stories until they have a real plan again. So far I've only seen No way Home and Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness from Phase 4, The other Movies I've don't seen, however, only WandaVision from the TV Shows.
It's just become too much.

Love And Thunder was awful. Well, the first 20 minutes of it was. Nice intro, good introduction of the villain, but after that it all goes to hell. We get a long and tedious recap from Korg, Thor being a vain and stupid twat, and then a long flashy fight sequence that somehow manages to remain unexciting and has the general effect of trivializing Thor and the GotG both. Then we cut to Jane Foster having cancer, OK, then we get another Asgardian play recapping Ragnarok again (yawn) and by the time we get to the fragments of Mjolnir rattling around the case, I've pretty much lost the will to live. Say what you like about Thor: Ragnarok, but it pretty much rocked along from one scene to the next. This one just dragged.

I did quite enjoy Multiverse of Madness . I hadn't much expected to but Sam Raimi did what he always does and I enjoyed it quite a lot. Watched No Way Home on the strength of Multiverse of Madness, and I have to say Tobe Macguire and Doc Ock carried it for me. (Benedict Cumberbatch didn't hurt either). No shade on Tom Holland, who was amazing in Civil War and Infinity War. He just didn't have much to work with here.

I also quite liked Moon Night (a bit like Lucifer - horrible adaptation, but the main character carries it, and it ends up being entertaining in its own right) and I'm enjoying She Hulk which, (if you overlook the occasional bit of virtue signalling), is really quite good.

The rest of it ... ah, don't get me started. We had some good films out of the franchise. I can't seem to summon up much enthusiasm for future offerings.

Personalmente, non sono un fan dei film di fantascienza, ma alle mie figlie e ai miei nipoti piace guardare i supereroi. Ho sentito qua e là qualche delusione in alcuni film Marvel, ma per lo più sono soddisfatti dei film.

When I went with my friends to see the movies at the premiere every time I had the same phrase '' marvel will end when the avengers end '' and that's what happened. Then you must be asking yourself ''but what were the reasons? '', the answer is simple ''wanting to put up stories involving minority groups anyway, as this will please a small portion of society and make money at the same time''. But that's not just marvel, you now see adaptations like resident evil from netflix, series for teenagers with '' problems '', series completely contradicts lore and characters already created and that's the problem. The problem is not having a white, black, gay, straight or anything else character, the problem is when they take a character already created, established and loved by the fans and changed everything about him to break taboo or please these minority groups, and that's just it will generate more hate but companies don't care about it, they want money and when they see that these series / movies are not making money, they will abandon these minority groups. Coming back to Marvel, besides what I said is also because the new characters are not interesting because after the endgame avengers, the only production that was really good was the last Spider-Man movie.

Quote

the answer is simple ''wanting to put up stories involving minority groups anyway, as this will please a small portion of society and make money at the same time''.

> That is exactly what three of us think too. Although we were very disappointed in Spiderman multiverse (whatever) and Dr. Strange in similar multiverse shit.

WOKE! Not much more need be said...

6 hours ago, TheLadysGhost said:

WOKE! Not much more need be said...

 

 

> I found ridiculous to add a female version of male heroes. The most annoying thing in it is they are stronger, and better in every way than originals. Fuck it! Total nonsense.

The problem is that they've become so successful that they feel comfortable taking their core audience for granted. Back in the days Of Iron Man or Avengers: Assemble, they had to get it right. A flop could have meant the end of the franchise, so they made damn well sure the fans were on board.

These days, they're pretty sure that the fans will buy tickets whatever they do, so they throw in some flashing lights and fancy effects (because that's all they think we're interested in) and then use the rest of the movie to mock the genre and to score political points. If they tick all the right woke boxes then the reviewers will rave about it, regardless of quality and when the day comes that fans finally stop buying tickets, it won't be because of anything the production team have been doing, it'll be because "the general public has finally gotten bored with superheroes".

There's a kind of inevitability to it, really. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

1 hour ago, DocClox said:

The problem is that they've become so successful that they feel comfortable taking their core audience for granted. Back in the days Of Iron Man or Avengers: Assemble, they had to get it right. A flop could have meant the end of the franchise, so they made damn well sure the fans were on board.

 

These days, they're pretty sure that the fans will buy tickets whatever they do, so they throw in some flashing lights and fancy effects (because that's all they thing we're interested in) and then use the rest of the movie to mock the genre and to score political points. If they tick all the right woke boxes then the reviewers will rave about it, regardless of quality and when the day comes that fans finally stop buying tickets, it won't be because of anything the production team have been doing, it'll be because "the general public has finally gotten bored with superheroes".

 

There's a kind of inevitability to it, really. Doesn't mean I have to like it though.

 > I have read somewhere that Batwoman season one didn't had enough percentage of watchers because people didn't like it at all and as such it should be shut down, but somebody invested big sum of money and financed the second and third seasons. We tried to watch it, but we couldn't. It was so bad.

I was fed up with Batwoman before it even aired. The character's brief appearance in that Legends crossover was more then enough to persuade me that I didn't want to watch it.

32 minutes ago, DocClox said:

I was fed up with Batwoman before it even aired. The character's brief appearance in that Legends crossover was more then enough to persuade me that I didn't want to watch it.

?

> We weren't eager to watch it too, but we watched it out of curiosity. Didn't like it after first episode.

I am just waiting for a black Wonder Woman, or female Captain America. Then, we can have a gay man as Harley Quinn...

Apparently, already in the works... ?

1 hour ago, TheLadysGhost said:

I am just waiting for a black Wonder Woman, or female Captain America. Then, we can have a gay man as Harley Quinn...

 

Apparently, already in the works... ?

> So, I guess we could expect female versions of male actors of Guardians of galaxy. I wonder what female Groot would look like. maybe she'll have more leaves on her head and in the bikini zone?!

1 hour ago, TheLadysGhost said:

I am just waiting for a black Wonder Woman, or female Captain America. Then, we can have a gay man as Harley Quinn...

 

Apparently, already in the works... ?

22 hours ago, TheLadysGhost said:

WOKE! Not much more need be said...

 

44 minutes ago, Evaloves4 said:

> So, I guess we could expect female versions of male actors of Guardians of galaxy. I wonder what female Groot would look like. maybe she'll have more leaves on her head and in the bikini zone?!

seriously, the cinematographic scenario is complicated, the last production I left the theater with a smile on my face was top gun 2 maverick because this movie is so badass, the acting and the direction of the movie is impeccable.

Quote

> Marvel movies were synonym for good SF movies. Hulk, Avengers, Captain America, Thor, Spiderman and Iron man movies were the best if you ask the three of us. But what the fuck is happening lately?! All of their series sucks. We couldn't find single one that we could say it is watchable. The cup overflew after the latest "Thor: Love and Thunder". That movie is disaster

Well, it seems that with their latest works, they prioritized pushing an agenda (which seems to be an excessive "woke" one) rather than concentrating solely on quality. And thus it seems She-Hulk and Thor Love and Thunder weren't well received by the audience, as it had begun be with Captain Marvel.

Note that pushing an agenda isn't a new thing for movies nor artistic works in general. Yet I guess it depends on how well it's done, on what the message is, and at what time this message is issued. If you relate a quite divisive message, in a not so good movie, at the wrong time, people aren't going to be moved, and you could get the opposite from the desired reaction. Which is what we seems to be going with Amazon's Rings of Power as well. So it's not Marvel alone.

Yet, regarding Marvel, there are some of the current works which I consider good : 

• « Loki » series (92% critics rating). Funny, well written, well acted and with a good score. The timeline and DVA concept allowing for a lot of freedom, refreshing situations and for unexpected character development. Not perfect, yet definitely good in most departments.
• « Moon Knight » series (86% rating). The Egyptian version of Marvels. Very well written (with a scenario even more complex than Loki's, which was already more cerebral than your average Marvel ; and an open ending), excellently acted, with lots of action (some of which really badass) and a near constant suspense ; a refreshing setting (welcome to ancient egypt and dissociative mental disorders XD) ; and an excellent score as well.
• « What If » animated series (94% rating), written a bit fast at some moments ; but very cleverly done in the end, well executed, and with lots of humor (although a dark one most often).
• Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (74% rating). Not the typical Marvel again, but with a magic and multidimensional world allowing nearly just as much freedom than for « What If ». Acceptably written but very well executed, the combo Sam Raimi, Benedict Cumberbatch and Elisabeth Olsen allowing for some sort of unusual Marvel adventure with glints of horror packed within. Good humor, notable score, good acting and effects.
• I do have a good memory of « Spiderman No Way home » (93% rating), which mixed a bit of Dr Strange and of the old (and exceedingly popular) Spiderman movies.

Now that makes only five. Yet while it's very different than nothing, even a great enterprise like Marvel shouldn't allow itself too many unpopular attempts, as they are all costly. Time will tell how they will adapt, yet as you understood, in my eyes simply putting « No way home » and « Moon Knight » as bad just because people didn't like She-hulk seems a bit hasty.

25 minutes ago, Tirloque said:

 

Well, it seems that with their latest works, they prioritized pushing an agenda (which seems to be an excessive "woke" one) rather than concentrating solely on quality. And thus it seems She-Hulk and Thor Love and Thunder weren't well received by the audience, as it had begun be with Captain Marvel.

 

Note that pushing an agenda isn't a new thing for movies nor artistic works in general. Yet I guess it depends on how well it's done, on what the message is, and at what time this message is issued. If you relate a quite divisive message, in a not so good movie, at the wrong time, people aren't going to be moved, and you could get the opposite from the desired reaction. Which is what we seems to be going with Amazon's Rings of Power as well. So it's not Marvel alone.

 

Yet, regarding Marvel, there are some of the current works which I consider good : 

• « Loki » series (92% critics rating). Funny, well written, well acted and with a good score. The timeline and DVA concept allowing for a lot of freedom, refreshing situations and for unexpected character development. Not perfect, yet definitely good in most departments.
• « Moon Knight » series (86% rating). The Egyptian version of Marvels. Very well written (with a scenario even more complex than Loki's, which was already more cerebral than your average Marvel ; and an open ending), excellently acted, with lots of action (some of which really badass) and a near constant suspense ; a refreshing setting (welcome to ancient egypt and dissociative mental disorders XD) ; and an excellent score as well.
• « What If » animated series (94% rating), written a bit fast at some moments ; but very cleverly done in the end, well executed, and with lots of humor (although a dark one most often).
• Dr Strange in the Multiverse of Madness (74% rating). Not the typical Marvel again, but with a magic and multidimensional world allowing nearly just as much freedom than for « What If ». Acceptably written but very well executed, the combo Sam Raimi, Benedict Cumberbatch and Elisabeth Olsen allowing for some sort of unusual Marvel adventure with glints of horror packed within. Good humor, notable score, good acting and effects.
• I do have a good memory of « Spiderman No Way home » (93% rating), which mixed a bit of Dr Strange and of the old (and exceedingly popular) Spiderman movies.

Now that makes only five. Yet while it's very different than nothing, even a great enterprise like Marvel shouldn't allow itself too many unpopular attempts, as they are all costly. Time will tell how they will adapt, yet as you understood, in my eyes simply putting « No way home » and « Moon Knight » as bad just because people didn't like She-hulk seems a bit hasty.

 

> Wow, excellent show overview as only you know how to do This is one of the things I like about you. My compliments.  

> Loki? It was disaster and garbage. Totally unwatchable and failure. Loki as character only worth to watch in Thor and Avengers.

> As for the others from your list, regardless of your positive attitude and my love for good visual effects and magic, I have no good words. My limited English and time prevents me to go into deeper analysis and arguing, but in one word (no offense): SHIT!!! Even some home made low production boring porn was more interesting than these.

45 minutes ago, Evaloves4 said:

> Wow, excellent show overview as only you know how to do This is one of the things I like about you. My compliments.  

> Loki? It was disaster and garbage. Totally unwatchable and failure. Loki as character only worth to watch in Thor and Avengers.

> As for the others from your list, regardless of your positive attitude and my love for good visual effects and magic, I have no good words. My limited English and time prevents me to go into deeper analysis and arguing, but in one word (no offense): SHIT!!! Even some home made low production boring porn was more interesting than these.

As I said, the scenario of Loki and Moon Knight isn't easy to grasp, yet it's one of their best aspects. So if they weren't dubbed in your language, you might've lost 80% of the story and humor. Yet in my eyes, both are excellent, and Moon Knight is close to masterful : long time since I hadn't been kept wondering about what is real and what isn't for example, which is one of the themes of the show. And long time since I hadn't done so while having excellent action sequences to keep the pace going.

As for Loki, he gets so much more character development in this one compared to the Avengers/Thors movie, and gets placed into so many incomparable situations, that for me he gains a lot more depth. Reals questions are asked in his series, while they get only skimmed in Thor. And it Thor, the main hero wasn't threatened to disappear at every instant during 90% of the show.

Now your opinion is as respectable as mine, so that's why I posted the links to RottenTomatoes. The ratings I gave you are those from the critics, but you've got those of the audience (people like us) as well. Bad movies often get scores like 20% or even below (for example Ghost Rider 2, which even fans admit as bad, gets 16%). Excellent ones 80% and higher. And regarding what the people thought, it seems they appreciated Loki just as much as the critics, Moon Knight even more (9 people out of 10 liked it), on par with What If. And that more than 19 spectators out of 20 liked Spiderman No Way Home.

So it's interesting to get opinions on a larger scale as well. Meanwhile, we'll just have to agree to disagree, Eva.

45 minutes ago, Tirloque said:

As I said, the scenario of Loki and Moon Knight isn't easy to grasp, yet it's one of their best aspects. So if they weren't dubbed in your language, you might've lost 80% of the story and humor. Yet in my eyes, both are excellent, and Moon Knight is close to masterful : long time since I hadn't been kept wondering about what is real and what isn't for example, which is one of the themes of the show. And long time since I hadn't done so while having excellent action sequences to keep the pace going.

 

As for Loki, he gets so much more character development in this one compared to the Avengers/Thors movie, and gets placed into so many incomparable situations, that for me he gains a lot more depth. Reals questions are asked in his series, while they get only skimmed in Thor. And it Thor, the main hero wasn't threatened to disappear at every instant during 90% of the show.

 

Now your opinion is as respectable as mine, so that's why I posted the links to RottenTomatoes. The ratings I gave you are those from the critics, but you've got those of the audience (people like us) as well. Bad movies often get scores like 20% or even below (for example Ghost Rider 2, which even fans admit as bad, gets 16%). Excellent ones 80% and higher. And regarding what the people thought, it seems they appreciated Loki just as much as the critics, Moon Knight even more (9 people out of 10 liked it), on par with What If. And that more than 19 spectators out of 20 liked Spiderman No Way Home.

 

So it's interesting to get opinions on a larger scale as well. Meanwhile, we'll just have to agree to disagree, Eva.

 

 

> I respect your taste for the movies as well, Mr. Trilog. You see, my luvs and I share the same affection for Porn, Horror and SF movies. I hate martial arts movies while after the porn and the genres I named they love it. On the other side I love romantic movies and drama after Horrors and SF, and they hate it. So, we only watch horror, porn and SF together, then we split. Thank heavens on my Fran who love romantic movies and drama. Otherwise I would watch it alone or with my mom when she have time.

The trouble is, I sometimes think, is that a lot of the writers on these shows are from mainstream literature backgrounds. Which tends to mean that they are firmly and unshakably of of the opinion that all genre fiction is irredeemable shit fit only for young children and morons.

So, you get a writer like that, often very highly regarded by the literary community, and you give them a job writing superheroes, and their attitude is this is all shit, so I'll throw in a fight and some special effects to keep the mouth breathers happy and then I can use the rest of the time to make political capital, and maybe make fun of the genre while I'm at it, because the core audience is too stupid to notice.

And of course, the critics who get to review these films come from same literary background as the writers. So what we as audience see as a travesty, they tend to look at as good writing, simply because it does mock the genre and make clever political points, and because they too think the core audience is too stupid to care about more than flashing lights and someone getting punched across the room.

As for Loki: you know the start of Avengers: Assemble where he's just come through the Tesseract portal, and we get a close up on his face, grinning with malevolent anticipation for all the terrible things he's about to do? For my money he showed more personality in that one still frame than he does in all of Loki S1.

2 minutes ago, DocClox said:

As for Loki: you know the start of Avengers: Assemble where he's just come through the Tesseract portal, and we get a close up on his face, grinning with malevolent anticipation for all the terrible things he's about to do? For my money he showed more personality in that one still frame than he does in all of Loki S1.

> Completely agree. The Loki S1 was failure from the start. No wonder they gave up from making S2