Kissinger
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V. cool mod. great writing. Look forward to voicepack and any future additions.
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Wonderful updates, really appreciate the creativity and attention you have put into the simulation.
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Devious Followers - Continued
Kissinger replied to Lupine00's topic in Downloads - SexLab Framework LE
I think the better outcome is to mix the approaches. That way the player is programmatically kept off balance and prioritizing the follower's judgement. For example: Let the follower ask the player before a check. If the player has a key and volunteers it, the follower gives a concrete reward. If the player denies having a key and is found out, obviously the follower inflicts a punishment or penalty. If the player denies having a key and does not in fact have one, then the follower can elect to either punish the player for the effort of checking (sheer abuse) or reward the player for honesty. The follower can make this decision based on some factor (randomness or disposition or whatever) If the player admits to having a key and has none, then obviously the follower again inflicts a punishment for wasting time on an unnecessary check. If the player approaches the follower instead, giving the key should lead to a reward even a temporary relaxation of the checking rule. The follower can then randomly check the player in this duration (abuse) at which point if the player holds a key the player is punished. Or the follower can not check at all per their own word (based on some factor or just random again). And yeah in this case key casino has to be disabled otherwise the whole thing is pointless. I guess this suggestion is thematically in line with DF's nature of increasingly overwhelming the player with the details of their exploitation. In this view, the point of the key deal is not to make it impossible or hard to obtain keys but to turn it into another rigged power struggle. So the key itself is actually irrelevant, it's converted to a contraband item in the context of the existing player-follower dynamic. The player doesn't win much freedom by having keys as was pointed out, but they do lose freedom by having to struggle over something with only niche value or use given their deals. -
really great concept seems like it will play well with stobor's raider pet mod
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[AAF] Sexual Harassment (11/18/2023)
Kissinger replied to twistedtrebla's topic in Downloads - Advanced Animation Framework
There's a Skyrim mod with animations that does exactly this, almost to the letter. Look for factoryclose's Horrible Harassment -
A "commodity" for Devious Followers as an alternative to cash
Kissinger commented on Lupine00's blog entry in The Lupine Collection
I agree that sex is a boring option here. However it may be fun and in keeping with the theme to allow the player to offer and have the DF cruelly refuse. Either shaming the player as a slut or simply reminding the player they can take the PC anytime they like. I also think that in keeping with the mod there might be conditions in which the player might beg the DF for release. I always liked the Maria Eden mechanic where the follower would put the PC away for the night and fuck her in the morning. Just riffing. One neat thing would be to simulate the emotional attachment of the player character to the DF. That might be weird to abstract and regardless it's kind of dark the way the mod is written now. I'm really not sure how you'd do it, but it might make getting sold more meaningful, somehow. -
Maybe this can be solved in an emergent way? E.g. a PC with the sleep deprivation condition can beg for accommodations that will count as sufficient rest in exchange for whatever? Alternately the PC can be solicited by NPCs who generously offer this and then take compensation in whatever random way they prefer? edit: yeah i know you can use the knock function for this. but i basically mean a separate scenario for a player that's nodding off and desperate. This sort of raises an issue that's part of the larger problem with making Skyrim fun/sensible in this way. Adult mods are sandboxed in various ways and anything that rationalizes gameplay in a new way can tamper with the way they function individually. Part of playing mods is to exhaust the content and outcomes. It makes it difficult to create a generic load order. Anyways I totally agree this is the kind of thing that has to be done delicately. I think maybe one way to do it is to ensure that bad outcomes for the PC occur as quickly and unobtrusively as possible and they can be resolved expediently if not totally efficiently if that makes sense. Whereas good outcomes, e.g. looting a cave should be comparatively more difficult to reach. In this case maybe the character can resolve the deprivation condition rapidly without the player's input, and then the incentive to stay well rested is to avoid your character doing something adverse. I guess this is more DiD's approach.
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The new changes around sleep and masochism seem really cool. What would be neat as well is if sleep was a compulsive need and deprivation resulted in nodding off instead of just debuffs. So basically ignore sleep for a night and your character conks out at a random interval the next day. This could lead to other cool synergies and repercussions, for instance DFC Willpower mitigating sleep deprivation at high levels but making it worse at low levels. Obviously sleep deprivation is a dangerous state for a vulnerable individual. There are other ways a character might suffer for not sleeping but I guess given how developed SSL has become its probably unnecessary to list the rest. Always look forward to your updates!
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Ah that's interesting, so in other words, you're thinking of instances where - the player has sufficient willpower to fight, but combat dynamically modifies willpower, such that a point during combat arrives where the player no longer has the willpower to fight, i.e. drops below threshold. Or just that willpower is an auto-surrender modifier? Because in the checkpoint model the player can't enter combat at all below a certain willpower. Can't lift a sword, probably can't cast a spell. But yeah, you can create any stat to serve this function. To me it's interesting to use DFC Willpower because it's the only such implemented stat that has gameplay consequences. There was that Devious Attributes mod, but as far as I know its been dead for a while.
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This was essentially my thinking at least for an initial implementation. Below x willpower all enemies everywhere are set to neutral. There has to be some safeguard against a player hacking at neutral enemies, but some combination of DD and forcegreets should solve it.
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Word lol Really good stuff. I think giving factions different mechanics for a helpless character to endure is gold. Stobor's mods (both Skyrim and F4) are very much in this headspace, in terms of creating weird empowerment/dispowerment relationships for PCs that are totally degrading and fun. I think his enemy faction scenarios (bandit/pirate/necromancer/vampire/spriggan/forsworn, etc.) are basically what I'm thinking of when trying to re-conceptualize noncombat outcomes. His mods are very deliberate about how they limit PC agency to create gameplay. I think they are a good point of departure. The difference is that instead of being self-contained quests to trigger with finite narratives and endpoints, you have something that's more core to the progression and integrated with all the cool new mods from the last 18 months or so. This is narratively weaker but I think the trade off is very worth it, given the kind of emergent gameplay scenarios you can get out of it. There's a few reasons why having a precombat checkpoint is superior in my view to all the defeat mods we have now. it's thematically more consistent and more degrading - the PC is too weak to bother taking seriously the implementation is likely a lot less buggy and awkward - defeat and surrender mods are notorious for this It introduces a new gameplay mechanic that can reinforce others that have been introduced with mods Why would a PC with a low willpower be able to swing a sword or cast a spell at a hostile to begin with? I think there are sort of enough defeat/surrender mods, and I think there's a few with conditional autosurrenders. My personal view is that the combat gameplay loop that exists now where if you lose a fight you get raped or enslaved and sent to SS isn't actually that compelling to a weak helpless PC playthrough. It's just kind of empty reinforcement. You made a weak character and your character got served. What next? Either you resort to pure narrative quests or you create mechanics and scenarios that are more fun, dynamic and granular. The DD+SLS+DFC trifecta is the most promising attempt at the latter since Maria Eden 2.0, which was in my view the single best one stop mod in terms of the subject of this thread. I think at some point SS needs to be replaced with something more realized. In order to do this though the gameplay purpose of enslavement needs to be clarified. Especially if combat gets reworked in the way we are discussing. I'm unsatisfied with enslavement and I think the key is probably going to be in giving DFC masters/followers traits and personalities. So basically getting sold is a way of rolling the dice on your DFC followers traits and hopefully trading up for more favorable/less demanding master in exchange for some gameplay penalties and a degrading slavery market interlude. I wanted to create a proof of concept around the combat aspects before talking about it, but spitballing ideas is easier I guess. I doubt I will have time to try implementing any of this stuff in the near future but who knows.
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One way to solve this issue is to turn dungeons into Willpower checkpoints instead of noncombat/sneak/pickpocket opportunities. This way a sneaky or manipulative player might be able to pick through some of a dungeon's loot without actually clearing the boss or progressing the objective. In other words if the PC is noticed by an enemy they can't persuade, they are enslaved or expelled from the dungeon with penalties. It's a different kind of defeat mod - the PC is too pathetic to take seriously except as a nuisance or as slavery-bait. This also opens up further gamification of the willpower stat or whatever equivalent is used. What if you want to clear a quest, but your character is short willpower? Maybe you can buff yourself with e.g. alcohol or skooma and then clear the dungeon before the buff expires. This also makes substances and addictions more purposeful. They now have a upside in game mechanical terms instead of a quantitative buff that could be duplicated. Implementing something like this would also make DFC followers into a more high risk high reward proposition, because willpower based predation has broader gameplay implications now. I think there would need to be a corresponding mechanic where players can trade cash for concrete willpower gains e.g. alongside skill gains from skill trainers. Because combat is now less accessible, this also revalues skill training. Taken altogether this means the player's overall optimal strategy should be to escape towns/cities where willpower penalties in exchange for gold are or should be more rampant. The PC still needs to return to towns to perpetuate the core gameplay loop, and a follower that can manage DD's is still necessary. There are some additional details (like how do you stop a player from simply squatting towns to grind cash through prostitution and using trainers to break the incentives) but I think there are some neat ways to solve this that are gameplay and thematically consistent. Basically the idea is to complete the other half of the punitive gameplay design that DFC+SLS+DD introduce. But in order to do so the incentives have to be structured right. The PC should have an attendant cycle of degradation to manage or prevent in order to progress the game, and in a way that's thematically consistent, makes gameplay sense and is still erotic fun.
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The central contradiction between a weak PC playthrough and Skyrim mechanics has always been combat. So why not remove it? A lot of mods aimed at creating a weak PC focus on making combat more difficult, more humiliating, more onerous, or just generally changing it in a qualitative way. The idea being to modify the likelihood of increasing defeat scenarios which I guess you want to avoid, but are usually more interesting and rewarding for the LL player than the actual combat. So why have combat or defeat at all or at least, so easy to start? I think in order to succeed, a weak PC playthrough has to make combat difficult to access. In other words, the way to reconcile the PC-sociopath with the put-upon PC tormented by followers, harassment, rapes and devices is to gate combat. Imagine a game instead where you enter a bandit lair and none of them takes you seriously. Instead they slap your weapon out of your hand, take your stuff, bind you and kick you out the entrance. A totally nonhostile world is also a recipe for making DD actually interesting. And it makes logical sense. Why should a weak PC have combat fluency at all? It also opens up interesting noncombat strategies for extracting loot, which is way too easy to get. It would also make alternate sources of income and weapons proficiency more viable. Suddenly the granularity of SLS/DD/prostitution/enslavement mods is much less trivial. The way to do this in practice is to gate combat with the Willpower stat from DF(C) or something like it. Basically deprive the player of hostiles below a Willpower threshold, and create a set of mechanics for preventing the player from trying to attack passive NPCs that underline the PC's weakness as the reason. I have some other ideas around mechanics that I think would be cool and challenging in addition but this post is long enough already. Anyways if that thread vanished we should either just make a new one or continue here, it seems like there's a lot of good criticism in the ideaspace around this issue. Thanks for compiling all those posts!
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Both, each in their own idiom. It's effectively a fail state - either you create a gameplay penalty/opportunity that corresponds until the state is reset or you create a narrative arc that resets the state. It doesn't have to be a downward spiral of punishment either, which is sort of what SLS and DF are trending towards. Maybe you can create either a fun narrative means of resolving the fail state, or some alternate gameplay mode that's fun. The real issue with a fun narrative means of resolving sexual servitude fail states is that mod authors usually just lean on Simple Slavery to pass the PC to another mod, and Simple Slavery is really dated and tedious. Maria Eden had a lot of good ways fail states could lead to other things - slaves could get sold to brothels, prostitutes could get sold to slavers, the PC could get horribly pierced, chained, choked out or hung from a noose, sent to high risk jobs with bandits or animals or just sent for training and picked up afterwards. Alternate gameplay modes are going to be janky no matter what, but maybe you can create a limited scenario thats a mix of both, like Ichabod's old school Player Slavery mod outcomes from Oblivion. As long as there's a kind of outcome the player is working towards and a clear theme. You can also create NPCs that resolve the impasse. Maybe there's a financier who will buy out the player's DF debt in exchange for gameplay consequences or specific tasks, or who will bankroll the player's licenses for a cut of profits and some attention once in a while.
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Great concept. Seems the core mechanics of DF but something more integrated into the game world. The Troubles of Heroine mod does have the fake/real Dragonborn dynamic. Also reminds of Babodialogue's vice captain (who takes over breezehome and bullies the player for intercourse). I think picking the dominant, Maria Eden style might be fun to consider but I don't think it's a real issue for the concept. The issue with DF (or any mod that deprives the player of agency in a meaningful way) is that the desire to go through the content usually overwhelms my interest in the changes to gameplay mechanics they bring. This is sort of an issue with Skyrim in general (it was always a little dull) but I find that it's easy for interacting with these mods to turn into self-contained bubble sessions. If the mechanics have enough dynamism with consequences (there's a back and forth where the content equips the mechanics and vice versa) then it could be another story. Maria Eden probably came closest to this of any mod, I think, partly because it had it's own logics for submissive actions, dominant behaviors, outfits, pimp master selection, etc. DF probably a distant second, because really the spiral sort of just goes one way when the purpose of the deals is to experience them. Another way to do it is to just make the content pervasive through the game world, but no one's really combined that with a persistent dominant follower yet.