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HDT Nipple "Dangles"?


C5Kev

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Quite the opposite is the case it is incredibly hard to make something like this. A few people have tried it including me and we all failed...

The problem is that HDT is working with bones and they have a fixed position in the nif file. The nipples and the whole breast on the other hand already move affected by the breast bones.

So why not attach the HDT bones to the breast bones? You may ask. That kind of works but the breasts move a little bit independent of the breast bone because of weighting so the piercing would not move perfectly together with the nipple. The second and even bigger problem is morphing... if the user scales the breasts I have no way of telling where the nipple position has moved or even if it has moved. Also with different body presets from bodyslide there is no way of making sure the piercings stays where they should be.

 

I have put several hours into this and attacked the problem from a lot of different angles, at the moment I see no way of doing this without using a body with a fixed breast size but that is a pretty lame solution, nobody wants that ^^

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Quite the opposite is the case it is incredibly hard to make something like this. A few people have tried it including me and we all failed...

The problem is that HDT is working with bones and they have a fixed position in the nif file. The nipples and the whole breast on the other hand already move affected by the breast bones.

So why not attach the HDT bones to the breast bones? You may ask. That kind of works but the breasts move a little bit independent of the breast bone because of weighting so the piercing would not move perfectly together with the nipple. The second and even bigger problem is morphing... if the user scales the breasts I have no way of telling where the nipple position has moved or even if it has moved. Also with different body presets from bodyslide there is no way of making sure the piercings stays where they should be.

 

I have put several hours into this and attacked the problem from a lot of different angles, at the moment I see no way of doing this without using a body with a fixed breast size but that is a pretty lame solution, nobody wants that ^^

 

Well, I'm know I'm over-simplifying the whole issue and certainly not going to dispute your expertise on this subject as I definitely don't have any! :)  But many of us have, e.g., t3h0th3r's UUNP HDT piercings and they seem to follow breast movement just fine, so there's obviously a way to do this. And to your morphing issue, they also scale up / down just fine.

 

And what about earrings themselves? Sure, heads don't move as much as boobs do, but again, to your morphing issue, I can scale a head in Racemenu and the earrings seem to know just where they're supposed to be located.  So, if the nipple piercings can be located correctly, couldn't one simply use HDT earrings with the "post" part in the nipple (post being a new mesh) at the nipple points?

 

I'm sure I'm missing something here...

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Well, I'm know I'm over-simplifying the whole issue and certainly not going to dispute your expertise on this subject as I definitely don't have any! :)  But many of us have, e.g., t3h0th3r's UUNP HDT piercings and they seem to follow breast movement just fine, so there's obviously a way to do this. And to your morphing issue, they also scale up / down just fine.

 

And what about earrings themselves? Sure, heads don't move as much as boobs do, but again, to your morphing issue, I can scale a head in Racemenu and the earrings seem to know just where they're supposed to be located.  So, if the nipple piercings can be located correctly, couldn't one simply use HDT earrings with the "post" part in the nipple (post being a new mesh) at the nipple points?

 

I'm sure I'm missing something here

 

For normal piercings, you can just apply morph sliders in bodyslide. I have created piercings myself that part is quite easy but when you have an object that is also affected by physics movement the results look really terrible.

And yes you can scale the head in racemenu but that is not achieved by morphs but by scaling the head bone so every attached node gets scaled, like hdt earring nodes.

Morph sliders that are used by the face or by CBBE/UUNP body sliders are done via .tri files. This is a whole different process than just scaling the bones, I believe the tab where you can scale the head or other whole bodyparts in racemenu is called "body scales"?, that's the reason why  ;)

But even the asynchronous movement can't be solved so easily. Just try attaching some object to the "NPC R Breast" node and position it roughly so it's on top of the breast... 

 

I mean it might be possible but it's certainly not an easy task. I know how to create HDT objects, how to apply sliders and even tried it with some additional scripts. Still, I had a very hard time achieving anything useful. It's been a while since I last tried it maybe I will take another look at it but I am not very hopeful  :-/

Also, I think I am one of the few modders who still create new HDT Items. Unfortunately, there aren't many who know how to do this and information about this is rare and partly non-existent...

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Well, I'm know I'm over-simplifying the whole issue and certainly not going to dispute your expertise on this subject as I definitely don't have any! :)  But many of us have, e.g., t3h0th3r's UUNP HDT piercings and they seem to follow breast movement just fine, so there's obviously a way to do this. And to your morphing issue, they also scale up / down just fine.

 

And what about earrings themselves? Sure, heads don't move as much as boobs do, but again, to your morphing issue, I can scale a head in Racemenu and the earrings seem to know just where they're supposed to be located.  So, if the nipple piercings can be located correctly, couldn't one simply use HDT earrings with the "post" part in the nipple (post being a new mesh) at the nipple points?

 

I'm sure I'm missing something here

 

For normal piercings, you can just apply morph sliders in bodyslide. I have created piercings myself that part is quite easy but when you have an object that is also affected by physics movement the results look really terrible.

And yes you can scale the head in racemenu but that is not achieved by morphs but by scaling the head bone so every attached node gets scaled, like hdt earring nodes.

Morph sliders that are used by the face or by CBBE/UUNP body sliders are done via .tri files. This is a whole different process than just scaling the bones, I believe the tab where you can scale the head or other whole bodyparts in racemenu is called "body scales"?, that's the reason why  ;)

But even the asynchronous movement can't be solved so easily. Just try attaching some object to the "NPC R Breast" node and position it roughly so it's on top of the breast... 

 

I mean it might be possible but it's certainly not an easy task. I know how to create HDT objects, how to apply sliders and even tried it with some additional scripts. Still, I had a very hard time achieving anything useful. It's been a while since I last tried it maybe I will take another look at it but I am not very hopeful  :-/

Also, I think I am one of the few modders who still create new HDT Items. Unfortunately, there aren't many who know how to do this and information about this is rare and partly non-existent...

 

 

"And yes you can scale the head in racemenu but that is not achieved by morphs but by scaling"  Ah, yes, of course. I stand corrected.

 

"Unfortunately, there aren't many who know how to do this and information about this is rare and partly non-existent..."  This reminds me of when I bought the original DOS 3D Studio back in '94 (I'm old). It had 4-5 very thick manuals and no one to answer questions. With a gigantic learning curve, aspects were quite difficult to figure out to be sure.

 

As you alluded to, if it were easy to do, it would have already been done. I guess I was hoping someone would say, "Oh yeah, no prob. I'll knock some out tonight." Sounds like that's not gonna happen, or at least anytime soon...  :(  I guess I can't figure out why HDT earrings can't be placed at the same locale as the nipple rings. Obviously not that cut-n-dried, huh?

Well, at least we DO have "HDT almost everything else", which I find fascinating in itself. It's all very cool stuff and I wish I understood it. But as I said, I'm old now and too lazy to wanna figure it out...

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... t3h0th3r's UUNP HDT piercings ...

This is about piercings that move independently from the breasts (meaning the jewelry or whatever is attached to the piercings themselves) and while doing so still don't clip through the body, not ones that move synchronous with the breasts which is very easy to do (just copy weight paints to the jewelry). Entirely different beast, sorry.

And as Haeretic pointed out that's a lot more complicated.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Quite the opposite is the case it is incredibly hard to make something like this. A few people have tried it including me and we all failed...

The problem is that HDT is working with bones and they have a fixed position in the nif file. The nipples and the whole breast on the other hand already move affected by the breast bones.

So why not attach the HDT bones to the breast bones? You may ask. That kind of works but the breasts move a little bit independent of the breast bone because of weighting so the piercing would not move perfectly together with the nipple. The second and even bigger problem is morphing... if the user scales the breasts I have no way of telling where the nipple position has moved or even if it has moved. Also with different body presets from bodyslide there is no way of making sure the piercings stays where they should be.

 

I have put several hours into this and attacked the problem from a lot of different angles, at the moment I see no way of doing this without using a body with a fixed breast size but that is a pretty lame solution, nobody wants that ^^

 

 

Nipple bones? But that's a whole new skeleton and mesh and about as fun of a solution as fixed breast size mesh. Though is it even remotely possible to inject/add bones at run time dynamically?

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I posed this same question around about this time last year in this thread. I educated myself through various forums and tutorials and came to the same conclusion that Hæretic stated. In short, it's really hard! My character runs around with nipple and clitoral piercings from Devious Devices pretty much 24/7. So my answer to the issue was to assign a non "dangly" piercing  mesh to the nipple and clitoral piercing. In other words, I nixed the "chain hung" soul gem mesh that came with Devious Devices and replaced it with a "non chain hung" soul gem mesh from another piercing mod. Not as cool as the "dangles" would be, but it's more realistic IMO.

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I posed this same question around about this time last year in this thread. I educated myself through various forums and tutorials and came to the same conclusion that Hæretic stated. In short, it's really hard! My character runs around with nipple and clitoral piercings from Devious Devices pretty much 24/7. So my answer to the issue was to assign a non "dangly" piercing  mesh to the nipple and clitoral piercing. In other words, I nixed the "chain hung" soul gem mesh that came with Devious Devices and replaced it with a "non chain hung" soul gem mesh from another piercing mod. Not as cool as the "dangles" would be, but it's more realistic IMO.

 

In retrospect, if it were easy, it would have been done a long time ago. And I'm certainly not the first to think about this :D .  It's too bad though as I'd (or many of us) would like to have these types of things. But I suppose HDT will take on a new form as we move forward, so what's the point with bothering with it now?

 

More importantly, I've been playing SSE as I've got sick of Oldrim CTD'ing all the time. And it looks MUCH better!  But we're back to the 'ol TBBP days until SKSE64 can be fingered out - and I'm not too happy about THAT!  I miss my beautiful bouncy tits!  Uh, wait, let me rephrase that... 

 

 

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Easiest way I can think of to do this as the bodies are, is to have a nipple mesh that attaches over the originals which could be zapped hidden. The nipple mesh could have the same sort of properties as the rings and hdt things which don't need to use the bodies skeleton. So it would use it's own rigging.

 

As there are no nipple bones I couldn't say how well it would work anyway due to the movement of breast bones.

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Why is this hard? We have many hdt armors with skirts/capes/cloaks etc that move around, they all do it the same way, you just add bones. In this case you would need 2 bones for each nipple, a bone attached to the hdt bone weighted to the breast bone, this is our anchor on the nipple and then a bone that comes down fromt here which is our 'swing'.

 

For adaptability though I would suggest a loose kinematic bone (anchor) with the swinging bone attached, so that users can move/scale/weight as they need for different bodies as I personally don't have any knowledge on tying this into blodyslide/morphs etc.

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Why is this hard? We have many hdt armors with skirts/capes/cloaks etc that move around, they all do it the same way, you just add bones. In this case you would need 2 bones for each nipple, a bone attached to the hdt bone weighted to the breast bone, this is our anchor on the nipple and then a bone that comes down fromt here which is our 'swing'.

 

For adaptability though I would suggest a loose kinematic bone (anchor) with the swinging bone attached, so that users can move/scale/weight as they need for different bodies as I personally don't have any knowledge on tying this into blodyslide/morphs etc.

 

"Why is this hard?"   Well, idk, but nobody's coming forward to making them, so...   ???   I wish someone would though.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Why is this hard? We have many hdt armors with skirts/capes/cloaks etc that move around, they all do it the same way, you just add bones. In this case you would need 2 bones for each nipple, a bone attached to the hdt bone weighted to the breast bone, this is our anchor on the nipple and then a bone that comes down fromt here which is our 'swing'.

Yes, thats basically it (guys above overcomplicated some things I think), but theres still problem with scaling that can't be fixed. It would be non-scalable objects attached to breast bones which would need to be converted to each body shape individually (each bodyslide shape + each weight from 0-100).

 

I have also made thread about the same thing back in 2016: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/52248-nipple-jewelry-with-physics/

 

The only thing that came to my mind would be moving the new anchor bone X/Y/Z position from script. Aka you set min/max coords of nipple bones for YOUR specific body mesh, then whenever something gets scaled it would compute current desired position between min and max. It would be annoying as fuck (especially finding min/max coords) but doable I think(?)

 

 

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So why not attach the HDT bones to the breast bones? You may ask. That kind of works but the breasts move a little bit independent of the breast bone because of weighting so the piercing would not move perfectly together with the nipple. The second and even bigger problem is morphing... if the user scales the breasts I have no way of telling where the nipple position has moved or even if it has moved. Also with different body presets from bodyslide there is no way of making sure the piercings stays where they should be.

I somewhat missed this post.

 

The second part I have aldready explained above, and its true - practically unfixable without scripts. But what I don't get is the first part about weighting. Why something that is "weighted" to the child bone of breast bones wouldn't move in sync with them? Even in my half-assed test I did a year ago they were moving in sync. Could it be that you anchored them to wrong breast bone or copied wrong weights?

 

...

To everyone else, proof:

 

giphy.gif

 

Higher quality clip: https://mega.nz/#!ahpGwRCQ!P8AWDfac9l2aV_lyCCPkx70LNDk6ST2boTKRKS-ZfRM

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The problem in my half-assed experimenting is the morphing.  Xuniana got it to work because there is only one body type within the mod. It's called "beaded_bikini_1.nif". Note, that if you download the mod and have a look within the BSA, there isn't a second nif called "beaded_bikini_0.nif". Getting the "danglies" to morph with the breast is going to require some script writing IMO.

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It's just a tumblr redirect link to mega.nz.

 

Yeah, saw that, but also got a pop-up page, "WARNING! Your computer has a virus and is about to explode unless you call this number now!" ...or something to that effect.  LOL!  Gee, I hope it doesn't explode!  LOL!

 

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Why is this hard? We have many hdt armors with skirts/capes/cloaks etc that move around, they all do it the same way, you just add bones. In this case you would need 2 bones for each nipple, a bone attached to the hdt bone weighted to the breast bone, this is our anchor on the nipple and then a bone that comes down fromt here which is our 'swing'.

Yes, thats basically it (guys above overcomplicated some things I think), but theres still problem with scaling that can't be fixed. It would be non-scalable objects attached to breast bones which would need to be converted to each body shape individually (each bodyslide shape + each weight from 0-100).

 

I have also made thread about the same thing back in 2016: http://www.loverslab.com/topic/52248-nipple-jewelry-with-physics/

 

The only thing that came to my mind would be moving the new anchor bone X/Y/Z position from script. Aka you set min/max coords of nipple bones for YOUR specific body mesh, then whenever something gets scaled it would compute current desired position between min and max. It would be annoying as fuck (especially finding min/max coords) but doable I think(?)

 

 

I think the adjustments you're talking about would only be required if you wanted to create a slide-able file ready to go for everyones body types, those body specific edits/tweaks to line up correctly could easily be done on the users end via nifskope or outfit studio.

 

Otherwise if you want something that is bodyslide ready for every other morph, that's where you will always run into problems, I mean even the basic non hdt piercings that go on nipples and are weighted to hdt bones are difficult to setup via morphs and bodyslide without a lot of work. Otherwise they just deform with weight changes and morphs.

 

Best thing would be a hdt piercing mesh with the bones etc which could then be moved to suit a users needs via nifskope etc.

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