Devious Devices Framework Development/Beta

[Guest]

 

That's a third party mod mechanic, it has nothing to do in a framework. The framework should concern itself to "can the PC talk or not". And default to "can talk", regardless of the gag, if nothing is saying otherwise.

 

 

you literally can post that same thing over and over and I will continue to disagree with you.

 

- With that same logic belts shouldn't prevent you from having sex.

- Plugs shouldn't vibrate.

- masks and hoods shouldn't blind you.

- and armbinders shouldn't effect your arms.

 

Modders can make there own gags do watever they like there is no issue here.

[bicobus]

With the difference that talking with NPC is an inherent mechanic of the vanilla game. Sexual congress isn't. Don't impede my ability to play vanilla without a good reason, and a framework do not have a good reason. A quest mod like DCL and SLaV do have such reasons.

[neosuduno]

Personally, I am not here to feed the flames of argument, just recommend adding a quest involving pony gear. There are new pony gags, why not involve them?

[Guest]

I would like to think of it as heated discussion, I am in no way trying to start any fights or hold any grudges I am only trying to show my support for the current system that has been developed and my reasons for thinking so. I don't believe in staying within this caged definition of what a framework should be.

[Veladarius]

I would like to think of it as heated discussion, I am in no way trying to start any fights or hold any grudges I am only trying to show my support for the current system that has been developed and my reasons for thinking so. I don't believe in staying within this caged definition of what a framework should be.

 

And I believe that as a framework it should give options for the things it does and how it does them. Imposing unwanted features with no way to turn them off is not something a framework should do. I had no issues with it being there as an option where I could disable it and not be annoyed by it.

[HyperonicX]

I'll just say this, then walk away.

 

The whole having to wait thing after failing is stupid and annoying. (Having to wait 3-5 hours just to have another attempt at trying to repair a jammed lock?) 

And they key breaking and lock jamming problems are set WAY too high. (25% is very high. 5% is much better, since there is still a chance of it happening, yet it won't happen a lot.)

 

I don't hate all of the new DD framework's ideas, and I'm going to see this through, see where it all goes, but it does need a LOT of work.

There were things in the old framework that were just perfect, and didn't need fixing/adjusting. Others, while a slight pain in the butt, were managable.

 

I can see WHY the new framework is necessary, but a lot of it really needs work.

 

Ok. I'll just see myself out now, and post again if there are problems/bugs, and suggestions on how to fix them (if I know how.)

[Veladarius]

Personally, I am not here to feed the flames of argument, just recommend adding a quest involving pony gear. There are new pony gags, why not involve them?

 

Several people worked on quests like this, why make it part of the framework? The only reasons that the original quests were included was to introduce people to the mod and the devices and have something to do until other mods were made.

[redmond]

I haven't read everyone's posts but I wanted to throw my 2 cents in as a player. Just from my personal experience taking away settings from the player lowers the fun. One of the things I really like about devious devices is that I can play it the way I want to. For instance on occasions I set a mod to drop keys with every mob and set DDi to have a 90% chance to break the key. I have been playing the dev build recently and I can't do things like that. How I want to play the game changes from time to time. Things that I enjoy on the current release build aren't possible on the dev build or they would require an entire mod just for whatever niche I happen to want to do.

 

As a player I don't really see the point in forcing the defaults for all devices. If a mod equips a default device on to a player to me that's the mod author leaving it up to the player on how difficult it is to escape. If I set everything in the menus to be super easy or impossible to escape, well that's my problem. Mod authors should make the custom devices if they explicitly want them to behave a certain way(as far as I understand this is how it tends to work on the release build).

 

I am not really fond of the tired after trying to escape thing as it ends up with me just waiting 2 hours when I am using a straitjacket or armbinder and there's really no fun in pressing wait. I can't really give a good suggestion on what the default waiting time should be because it goes back to choice. There's probably someone out their who would rather it last a day where as I most of the time would rather it not be there.

Note: I am sleepy so sorry for errors or if this isn't coherent

[Kimy]

 

And I believe that as a framework it should give options for the things it does and how it does them. Imposing unwanted features with no way to turn them off is not something a framework should do. I had no issues with it being there as an option where I could disable it and not be annoyed by it.

 

 

You don't seem to get the point that that's exactly what the framework does. Stopping making assumptions for other mods. Giving modders choices. Not hardcoding stuff for everyone.

 

Oh wait, you are bitching because I made choices for items actually in the FUCKING FRAMEWORK. The items I happen to maintain because they are in the mod that was passed on to me.

 

NEWSFLASH: THE NEW ESCAPE SYSTEM ISN'T EVEN ACTIVE BY DEFAULT. IT'S ACTIVE WHEN THE MODDER WANTS IT TO BE. OTHERWISE IT DOES FUCKING NOTHIN'.

 

Oh right, I chose make it active for default framework items. Which are little more then demo items you can or can not use in your mod. Your mod doesn't even have to. You can delete the standard items from your shop and stop caring about them in this instant. NO FUCKING CHANGE I DID FOR THIS FUCKING UPDATE WILL EVER FUCKING AFFECT ANY FUCKING THING YOU EVER DID IN YOUR MOD AND BY DESIGN NEVER WILL. THE FUCKING DEFAULT VALUES ARE ALL FUCKING ZERO. CHECK THE FUCKING CODE IF YOU DON'T FUCKING BELIEVE ME. The one thing that's active by default is a ridiculously low lock-shield timer that doesn't do much except saying "Hi, I am there!". I will change that in the next patch and set it to zero as well. Just because.

 

Seriously, at this point I just want to go do something else. Anything else. Filing tax returns must certainly be more fun than this. Seriously, why am I wasting my time with this? All I seem to get out of it is drama.

 

I am also proud of how many f-bombs I managed to put into one single post when I never used a single one in my two-thousand-seven-hundred something posts before. But it felt good.

[Guest]

Honestly its true no one has supported this mod going forward and every single move she has made even very slightly has been met with nothing but contempt and childish behavior (threatening to pull support etc)

 

I am grateful for the work you have put in and am constantly looking at the new features that have been added, no on on this site is more capable of handling this than Kimy in my honest opinion and the decision is ultimately hers to make what is done with the framework because it was entrusted to her and not anyone else.

 

As I said before you guys can't even agree on the most basic of things and Kimy if you want to stop working on this mod I  completely understand, it will save you from having stress related issues hopefully.

[Veladarius]

 

NEWSFLASH: THE NEW ESCAPE SYSTEM ISN'T EVEN ACTIVE BY DEFAULT. IT'S ACTIVE WHEN THE MODDER WANTS IT TO BE. OTHERWISE IT DOES FUCKING NOTHIN'.

As a modder I don't care about this system, if it is disabled on custom items by default then that means that I don't have to change them, thats it.

 

 

Oh right, I chose make it active for default framework items. Which are little more then demo items you can or can not use in your mod.

These little 'demo items' as you call them are used by most every mod especially ones that add items to the player. I don't want the haste of dealing with these effects as they were nothing but annoying. This is why I won't update and refuse to support DD anymore.

 

 

NO FUCKING CHANGE I DID FOR THIS FUCKING UPDATE WILL EVER FUCKING AFFECT ANY FUCKING THING YOU EVER DID IN YOUR MOD AND BY DESIGN NEVER WILL.

Other than using the default values which I could change on the generic devices and ignore on the quest devices I didn't expect it to affect my mod and was never worried about that. The only real changes I would have had to make were for the new device type keywords to be recognized so they could be removed but that won't be happening.

 

 

You can do what you want with DD, it won't affect me and the only people that will have to deal with changes that affect CD in some way are those that do update which isn't my problem.

[Kimy]

Vel, seriously, I don't care anymore. Update your mod, or don't. Your call. It's not that you have to. I was looking for common ground and didn't find any. From the get go you went "Either you give me a kill switch for the new system (despite it doesn't affect my mod) or I will quit." Seriously, it's like watching Groundhog Day, for I had a lot of debates like that lately. Except that Groundhog Day is fun.

 

Compromise is built on giving up something and taking something in return. I offered talking values. I offered putting some sort of user-controlled modifier in. I offered to disable some of the new features from the framework items. All I got from you was blackmail: "Do what I demand, or the death of CD will be on your conscience!!!" There was not a single constructive aspect to anything you said. No suggestions. No alternatives. No compromise. Just the equivalent of "Kimy, everything you do and ever did, sucks". Heck, you complain about alleged lack of user control and then you even bitched about the user control I did actually add, which is the debug feature for removing DD items. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to please you, and I dare saying that it has got little to do with the new escape system. You rejected me the very moment I took over from Min and never contributed anything of substance to DD anymore, no ideas, no suggestions, no code, no feedback. The only reason why we're even talking now is that I spotted you trash-talking DD (apparently the animation filter "sucks" too) and challenged you to elaborate. You act all "How could she just rip my beloved DD from under my feet and change it into a monster?", when you didn't even TRY to speak up when you had the chance to. The new system has been gradually pushed out over the course of MONTHS now. They were mentioned in this thread. You had EVERY chance to speak your mind and get involved. You never said a word. Ever. Until now, when you chose to pour bucket-loads of spite on me from out of nowhere.

 

I said in one of my previous that I had nothing but respect for you. CD was a mod that inspired me and I looked up to. But honestly, I have to use past tense now, as most of this respect is gone. I didn't expect so much vitriol and passive-aggressiveness coming from a person I once looked up to as a modder. As I said, I don't even know why I am still doing this. All of this I/we did for the modders using DD. To make the framework better, and more powerful, and give DD modders using it more freedom and more room for creativity while having less framework overhead to care about. To make content mods better for us bondage lovers to enjoy. All I got in return was rejection and contempt, from the very people the new features were actually meant for. As I said, right now, I just want to do something else that's more fun. Which is literally everything imaginable.

[Flameustc]

I am not modder, and I didn't have time to try the latest dev build. All my knowledge comes from this thread, so feel free to ignore me if my point makes no sense.

 

I think behaviors of general DD items are not part of the framework, at least not part of the core. They are just some default implementations. And DD framework core should only deal with the interface, e.g. TryEquip, OnEquip, EquipPreCheck, RegisterItemEvent, AddItemEffect, GetEquippedItems, etc (I am not modder so the list is just my imagination). To support and coordinate other mods, but not to limit them, is the responsibility of the framework core.

And all those stuffs like gag talk, blindfold mode, armbinder item dropping, lock shield, escape cooldown, should be removed from the framework core and put into a common library, while general DD items are some examples of those functions.

[dnoah]

Honestly its true no one has supported this mod going forward and every single move she has made even very slightly has been met with nothing but contempt and childish behavior (threatening to pull support etc)

 

I am grateful for the work you have put in and am constantly looking at the new features that have been added, no on on this site is more capable of handling this than Kimy in my honest opinion and the decision is ultimately hers to make what is done with the framework because it was entrusted to her and not anyone else.

 

As I said before you guys can't even agree on the most basic of things and Kimy if you want to stop working on this mod I  completely understand, it will save you from having stress related issues hopefully.

 

Is this really the sentiment here? Because, the naysayers are usually the most vocal part of any community. I'm sure there are plenty of users and modders that are satisfied with how things are progressing. Well in my case, 'satisfied' would be a heck of an understatement. 'Eternally grateful', more like. The only two reasons I do not spam the forums with expressions of gratitude (without anything substantial to say) is, because I think that's generally pointless (in case of popular mods), and, because I'm not that sociable and it feels awkward.

 

As for that other point, I agree with what Redmond said: the better the experience offered by a mod is to be, the more is required of its user. I don't think it should be a modder's prerogative to make the mod useable for anyone, not willing to read installation guides or understand how the mod tweaks or what it does or what it can conflict with. (Same goes for framework type mods, obviously.) Even if a user manages to screw up his/her game/mod setup, (s)he has every tool needed to identify the problem and fix it. As a user, I naturally disable/don't use anything that's not exactly up my alley, and things here that are up my alley, have always been - and continue to be here in DDx dev - beyond awesome. Thank you DD/X team.

[Nazzzgul666]

Give the players options to change default items, don't let those settings affect custom items at all. Wouldn't that be a compromise that you can accept?

 

I still do not understand at all why it is considered necessary to forbid users to change settings for the boring default items added by the framework. That is what Veladarius is bitching about, that is what i'm bitching about, and i mentioned reasons and asked to reconsider this decision. All i got was "Not gonna happen", but never why, or why you consider that a good idea.

The boring items won't become more intresting by making it more difficult to escape from, just more annoying.

Changing default items won't break any quests from DCL or other mods, but not beeing able to change them will break a lot of mods using those default items for me. I don't want those items to be annoying, i want them to be fun. If that means i have to roleplay and pretend i can't escape by struggling out sometimes, imho that's a lot better than not beeing able to escape if i want to.

 

If you let us change default items, Veladarius and everybody else can use or ignore the escape system and make his mod like he wants to and play the game like he wants to, i think that is how frameworks are supposed to work. But right now at least me as a player can't ignore the new system because i have a lot of mods using the default items, and my only choice is between using those mods or using the next DDi. Or hoping that somebody creates a mod that overwites all default settings and let me use default values i want, what you consider "not cool", but necessary to allow me to play the way i want.

 

Flameustc: that wouldn't be any different from the current status. DDi IS that library (*edit: at least i think so, i might be wrong.), if i don't want any effects i can just not install it. I do want effects, but not beeing limited what is considered reasonable by somebody else. I can't even make suggestions how the effects should be because i change them with my mood. Not beeing able to change them is no solution.

 

[Veladarius]

Vel, seriously, I don't care anymore. Update your mod, or don't. Your call. It's not that you have to. I was looking for common ground and didn't find any. From the get go you went "Either you give me a kill switch for the new system (despite it doesn't affect my mod) or I will quit." Seriously, it's like watching Groundhog Day, for I had a lot of debates like that lately. Except that Groundhog Day is fun.

 

Compromise is built on giving up something and taking something in return. I offered talking values. I offered putting some sort of user-controlled modifier in. I offered to disable some of the new features from the framework items. All I got from you was blackmail: "Do what I demand, or the death of CD will be on your conscience!!!" There was not a single constructive aspect to anything you said. No suggestions. No alternatives. No compromise. Just the equivalent of "Kimy, everything you do and ever did, sucks". Heck, you complain about alleged lack of user control and then you even bitched about the user control I did actually add, which is the debug feature for removing DD items. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to please you, and I dare saying that it has got little to do with the new escape system. You rejected me the very moment I took over from Min and never contributed anything of substance to DD anymore, no ideas, no suggestions, no code, no feedback. The only reason why we're even talking now is that I spotted you trash-talking DD (apparently the animation filter "sucks" too) and challenged you to elaborate. You act all "How could she just rip my beloved DD from under my feet and change it into a monster?", when you didn't even TRY to speak up when you had the chance to. The new system has been gradually pushed out over the course of MONTHS now. They were mentioned in this thread. You had EVERY chance to speak your mind and get involved. You never said a word. Ever. Until now, when you chose to pour bucket-loads of spite on me from out of nowhere.

 

I said in one of my previous that I had nothing but respect for you. CD was a mod that inspired me and I looked up to. But honestly, I have to use past tense now, as most of this respect is gone. I didn't expect so much vitriol and passive-aggressiveness coming from a person I once looked up to as a modder. As I said, I don't even know why I am still doing this. All of this I/we did for the modders using DD. To make the framework better, and more powerful, and give DD modders using it more freedom and more room for creativity while having less framework overhead to care about. To make content mods better for us bondage lovers to enjoy. All I got in return was rejection and contempt, from the very people the new features were actually meant for. As I said, right now, I just want to do something else that's more fun. Which is literally everything imaginable.

 

 

I stopped being involved in DD development a long time ago and have not used a dev build since long before v3 was under construction, health issues (physical and mental) limited how much I could do and I preferred to concentrate on CD. In the past year I have had to deal with several mental medications causing severe physical side effects including damaging my liver. My mother passed away on December 10th, seeing her at Thanksgiving I knew she would not last long and I have serious issues in dealing with death. I am on 3 anti anxiety medications that are all sedatives and take a combined total of 8 pills a day so my sleep is all screwed up. I am on an anti depressant but it barely controls it and upping the dosage makes my anxiety go through the roof. I am also bipolar so getting into a mood where I am mentally able to work on my mod is not easy but the medication I was taking to control it was what has damaged my liver so I had to stop taking it. My wife had back surgery in January so I had to take care of her for several months as well. Updating for DD v3 and doing my debugging took what little decent time time I had so doing any development or testing on DD during all of that was not possible for me. During this time I have come close to just quitting modding entirely and in a number of cases was prepared to trash everything I made. If I didn't have my wife to help me through all of this I would be dead right now.

 

 

My only issue is that the basic DD devices have values set so I have to deal with the features that I don't want to whenever another mod places them on my character (and there are several that do including DCUR). If modders want to use these on their items I have no issue with that as I can simply not use that mod if I don't want to. By making the base devices use these features I will have to uninstall pretty much every DD mod other than CD that I have right now because I will have to deal with them as a player not as a modder as they are added to my character. You keep pointing out that the modder has all of the control but that isn't true when it comes to the basic devices that most every DD mod uses, DDi and DDx have set the values for these and other than making a patch and overwriting them only the DD dev team has control of them. My main criticism of the dev build was that I would have to deal with these features and preferred having it optional but you could have made the basic devices not use these features and I would have been fine with that.

 

 

Yes, I said the sex animation filter sucked in DD and I have seen others comment on it before. Defaulting to the frustrated masturbation attempt when the only thing I have on is an open back belt should never happen, not with all the other possibilities available with SLAL installed or even just the basic ones. Seeing as I made the comment to someone who asked about that sort of issue happening I made my comment and said to disable the DDi sex filter. I am pretty sure this was known otherwise why you would have rewritten the filter for the new version? I have similar issues with DCUR in that it keeps defaulting to the boob job animation most of the time even if the only item I have on is a chastity bra. In both cases I am unable to change positions using the SexLab hotkey to change positions.

 

 

My issue with the debug routine was more the comment of register for this event so if it happens you can just reset the quest. My quests that use the quest devices are not made to be reset and said so. Instead of resetting I will have to figure out what devices are on the player and have the devices reequipped.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

Yes, I said the sex animation filter sucked in DD and I have seen others comment on it before. Defaulting to the frustrated masturbation attempt when the only thing I have on is an open back belt should never happen, not with all the other possibilities available with SLAL installed or even just the basic ones. Seeing as I made the comment to someone who asked about that sort of issue happening I made my comment and said to disable the DDi sex filter. I am pretty sure this was known otherwise why you would have rewritten the filter for the new version? I have similar issues with DCUR in that it keeps defaulting to the boob job animation most of the time even if the only item I have on is a chastity bra. In both cases I am unable to change positions using the SexLab hotkey to change positions.

 

 

Dealing with some health issues myself, i feel i'm partly to blame here. I had plans to make more tests to test the filter for quite a while but never really got my ass up, partly because the additional filter Kimy added by a request for me.

I have made some tests but didn't report it here because i've learned that my problems at least partly came from DCL after a stack dump (i've reported that one to DCL thread) and were not directly related to DDi. DCL has it's own library of bound animations and somehow (i assume the stack dump, not 100% sure) broke that library and i didn't really test things for DDi only yet.

Any bugs aside, imho a library in a .json file for bound animations would be awesome. That way i can decide for myself which animations are appropiate, you don't have to care about it, and i could hopefully fix it myself if it gets broken. That i can't do that now and it broke in several of my recent games is the main reason i don't use DCL anymore but several other mods instead.

 

Since i still hope to find a common solution and currently playing with DDi 3.3b i'd like to know if those filters have changed in the dev version, if tests with the public release would make any sense or if i should test with the dev version only.

 

For the gags: i admit i can't remember the DCL dialogue well enough to make concrete suggestions refering to those. Since it would be impossible to satisfy everybody at all circumstances, custom settings for default gags would be the most important part:

- a limit after how many tries it has 100% success

- random outcomes for failures. Rape, getting robbed, offer to have sex for money, get beer & food, get a bounty, get keys, get pushed away =>ragdoll,... (there is a quite old mod that is supposed to do that, but it isn't compatible with DDi since... i'm playing?)

- free hands increase chance for success or and prevent certain consequences. A character beeing helpless to rape while wearing 2 swords doesn't make sense just because beeing gagged, imho.

You may consider the last two as too much for a framework, i think everybody would like to have at least some of those options... offering them in MCM would be nice, i think.

 

And some thoughts about my suggest to stop animations from items for modders: I'm not sure if a keyword would work the way i hope. To come back to my example:

My character is forced to wear inflatable plugs, and then she gets an "offer she can't deny" to sit down. The scene requires her to stay sitting, but the plug beeing inflated by chance is what makes it intresting. However, after getting up again the plugs should work like normal without replacing them. I'm not sure if dh-suspend would already work that way, or if that would have too much influence and stop the modder of such a scene from doing other things as well, but something like that command was what i had in mind suggesting it.

It would also be useful for furniture play for example. A plug may vibrate while i'm in a cage, but it shouldn't cause me to get out of that cage like it happened to me in Devious Regulations. There is probably no way to make that happen in abandoned mods like reulations, but imho it would be useful for future mods.

[incrediblysecure]

@kimy: 2 days to change properties seems like a lot

 

i wrote a quick* proof of concept xedit script that quickly changes the escape values for any selected devices. there's no gui or anything but you should be able to quickly adapt it to do whatever. If there's any interest I can do the adapting myself; it may or may not be useful to anyone who wants to convert a 'legacy' mod to use the new system. I figure there's like a 75% chance you guys already have a better version so there's no point in me finishing this.

 

https://pastebin.com/XssS63ip

 

* this took me an embarrassingly long time and i probably screwed up somewhere

[dnoah]

 

You keep pointing out that the modder has all of the control but that isn't true when it comes to the basic devices that most every DD mod uses, DDi and DDx have set the values for these and other than making a patch and overwriting them only the DD dev team has control of them. My main criticism of the dev build was that I would have to deal with these features and preferred having it optional but you could have made the basic devices not use these features and I would have been fine with that.

 

Since Kimy had stated that basic devices are just samples and not intended to be used like that, wouldn't it be a plausible compromise not to overwrite anything, but to make an intermediary mod, say, DD Basic, that contains all the items and lets the user customize the shit out of them via MCM? And any mod that wants to use "basic items" will have to rely on items and settings from this new mod.

 

EDIT: DDXdev seems to be backwards compatible enough to make maintaining such a mod fairly simple.

[donotbugme]

Apologies for repeating myself it might have got lost is it possible to implement something to give the player all DDx items as searching by name references with the CK open.and using console is a little slow. Alternatively let me know how I can do it, I tried setting a formlist but I didn't manage to get it to work. Thanks folks

 

Edit autocorrelation behaving badly

[Veladarius]

@kimy: 2 days to change properties seems like a lot

 

i wrote a quick* proof of concept xedit script that quickly changes the escape values for any selected devices. there's no gui or anything but you should be able to quickly adapt it to do whatever. If there's any interest I can do the adapting myself; it may or may not be useful to anyone who wants to convert a 'legacy' mod to use the new system. I figure there's like a 75% chance you guys already have a better version so there's no point in me finishing this.

 

https://pastebin.com/XssS63ip

 

* this took me an embarrassingly long time and i probably screwed up somewhere

 

It can take a while, especially with 100+ devices depending on the number of properties that have to be edited. I spent days editing the 200+ devices for CD just to add the keyword for the questitem keyword. The CK also tends to lock you out from opening things after a while so you have to save, shut down and restart the CK.

 

 

 

 

 

You keep pointing out that the modder has all of the control but that isn't true when it comes to the basic devices that most every DD mod uses, DDi and DDx have set the values for these and other than making a patch and overwriting them only the DD dev team has control of them. My main criticism of the dev build was that I would have to deal with these features and preferred having it optional but you could have made the basic devices not use these features and I would have been fine with that.

 

Since Kimy had stated that basic devices are just samples and not intended to be used like that, wouldn't it be a plausible compromise not to overwrite anything, but to make an intermediary mod, say, DD Basic, that contains all the items and lets the user customize the shit out of them via MCM? And any mod that wants to use "basic items" will have to rely on items and settings from this new mod.

 

EDIT: DDXdev seems to be backwards compatible enough to make maintaining such a mod fairly simple.

 

 

Problem is that I pull all of the items for my basic punishment using the DD GetDeviceByTags command which will return the devices in DDi and DDx or any other mod that has registered tags for devices. Personally I would just write a patch mod that changes all of the settings on the devices to 0, basically overwriting the devices. Kimy may not like it but it would solve my complaint.

 

 

Edit: Treating the basic devices as 'samples' is the wrong viewpoint since they are the generic devices used by most every mod. No they may not be quest items but they are used more than any other devices.

[Veladarius]

Apologies for repeating myself it might have got lost is it possible to implement something to give the player all DDx items as searching by name references with the CK open.and using console is a little slow. Alternatively let me know how I can do it, I tried setting a formlist but I didn't manage to get it to work. Thanks folks

 

Edit autocorrelation behaving badly

 

There is a mod called Add Item Menu which lets you open a mod in game and all of the items are basically put into a container. Use that on DDx and just use the take all key like emptying a chest. It is probably one of the most useful mods to have especially if you have armor mods that don't have crafting recipes for the items.

[Princessity]

I feel like there is a lot of confusion going on about what the DD framework constitutes, what it's supposed to do and why.

 

So let me clear up some of the misconceptions before this back-and-forth goes too far.

 

• First of all, the idea that certain features such as gag-talk do no belong in the framework and instead it should be handled by other mods.

This is not an issue in any way. The default gag-talk is just that - default. It is completely overridable. If a modder wanted to they could replace it completely (like DCL does) or specifically for their quests/characters or even individual devices. The only reason the default gag-talk exists is to provide some kind of baseline mechanics in cases where no other mod takes precedence.

That said, I'm open to the idea of making the random minigame less random and less annoying. I'm not a big fan of it personally and I'd like to change it. I can add it to my to-do list (as a low priority item of course, I have more pressing, game-breaking issues to focus on) and see if I can make it both more interactive and less gruelling.

 

• Second of all, the idea that generic devices do not belong in the framework and should be removed.

Once again: defaults. Modders can use these if they want to but they are not forced to. They serve as templates to build upon, and under the new system third party modders are encouraged to create custom devices that do exactly what they want instead of using generic items. Something that previously was quite hard and required in-depth knowledge of papyrus and the DD framework. The new system makes custom devices easy to set up, making the framework more accessible to modders and in the long term hopefully reducing their reliance on generic items. But the generic items remain functional on their own to provide a shared library of ready-use resources to be utilised in unspecific context and to remove the need for every single third party mod to create dozens of the same devices from scratch in situations where they wish to utilise a lot of different devices or to draw from a randomised pool.

 

In other words, the generic devices are bundled in the framework for the same reason that Sexlab comes with an in-built library of animations. Most of them were incorporated into Sexlab core at users' request.

 

So if you want to argue that a major framework should not come with a library of preset content for the convenience of third part modders and users, I'd love to see you bring that argument up with Ashal. Go on. I dare you. I double-dare you <3

 

• Third of all, I'm sorry to be harsh about it but I feel that arguments against taking control away from users are overemphasising the control that they had in the first place.

The truth is, we are not taking that much away. But the options that are being removed from MCM are critical, such as the behaviour of keys, their chance of breaking and jamming locks. Truthfully, it should never have been open to user control in the first place and we apologise to all modders who have run into design issues on account of those options being available for as long as they were. Centralised key behaviour was a mistake that the new system attempts to fix by localising it on a per-device basis.

 

And as I said earlier in this topic, there is also another reason why we want the API to control escape difficulties and item properties. And ironically that is for users' benefit. By being able to define the values on a per item basis, we can establish standards (within the confines of the generic items of course, modders are free to do whatever they want) that will allow users to intuit the properties and difficulty of any given device at a glance.

Examples: latex devices are easy to destroy. Rusty devices carry a greater risk of jamming when tampered with. Yokes are much harder to wiggle out of than handcuffs.

 

This will streamline user experience while preserving the same range of options they had before. Some devices will be easier to escape from and others more challenging so now, instead of messing with MCM, it will be possible to customise the experience by equipping certain types or variants of devices. This goes for both users and modders.

 

• Fourth of all... why are we receiving all this feedback and ideas now?

The system was implemented weeks ago, prototype devices were available for testing and we were gathering feedback on them before rolling the changes out to all the other devices. Several people offered that feedback and we discussed our intentions here. We were aware of user concerns and still are, which is why we're open to changing the default values and even offering a (limited) difficulty slider as a compromise.

 

But I also still believe that the new system was the correct way to go and (I'm sorry to be harsh again) most of you are too late to the party. Reverting to the old system was off the table the moment Kimy had finished working for 3 days to bring all the generic items under the new one. I'm sure it's easier to complain about a decision than to have been involved in making it, but it's a bit too little too late.

 

So anyone who wishes to continue discussing it, I would like to ask you to accept that the old system is gone and from now on we will be operating within the framework of the new system. All ideas, suggestions and feedback should likewise align with the ruleset we are now operating under.

 

In other word, anything along the lines of "please go back to the old system" is no longer a viable suggestion and will not be taken into consideration.

 

• However, I can assure you that your feedback (the viable feedback at least) has been heard.

I personally agree that generic devices should not have lock shields, overly long escape cooldowns or other features that are better off being reserved for custom items. I agree that generic devices should be the baseline, not the bar, and that default values should be adjusted accordingly. We will see what we can do to make the default user experience better. We will not be able to please everyone but we do want to make it feel good to the average user.

 

Between Kimy and myself, the DD team has a very wide perspective on what constitutes the perfect balance and enjoyable experience. Believe me, if you think we are overly sceptical of your suggestions, you have never seen any of our DD Balance Meeting Ultimate Showdowns where we catfight over every point movement speed penalty on this or that device. But somehow we always manage to find the happy medium. It's no different in this case: we intend to iterate as many times as it takes, adapt where we have to, compromise where we need to.

 

• But last of all: just one caveat...

We do consider your suggestions but PLEASE do not mistake this statement for a promise that we'll do everything you want us to exactly how you want it. Every suggestion, both from testers and internally, goes through the grinder. it's weighted against our design philosophy, the Princess OCD test, against our plans (present and future), our capabilities, priorities and availability. Please do not be upset if we deem your suggestion low priority or discard it completely. Sometimes we may appear stubborn and selfish but I don't believe that's true and it's unfair to call us that. If it were, none of us would be investing so much time and unpaid work hours into this.

 

Oh yes, my time investment into modding yields me a grand total of $4 a month from Patreon donations. If I was selfish, that wouldn't be cutting it for me, it wouldn't be worth my time. But I'm driven by a desire to create something that brings other people enjoyment, hearing encouragement and seeing people having fun playing my stuff feels wonderful and justifies the effort I could have otherwise spent playing video games, watching anime, going to dancing classes or getting an actual second job that would at least offer material compensation for killing my health and sanity.

 

What I'm trying to say is: we are not fighting you. None of our decisions are made with malicious intent. We make changes that we fully believe to be good and progressive; that open up more options and make the framework more powerful, stable and accessible. We prioritise modders over users, yes. That's true, we have stated that multiple times and we stand by that decision because that's what a framework is, it's what DD has always been, it didn't change or suddenly become a thing when our "next generation" inherited DD from Min and Zad.

 

Please trust us? <3

[Content Consumer]

 

That said, I'm open to the idea of making the random minigame less random and less annoying. I'm not a big fan of it personally and I'd like to change it. I can add it to my to-do list (as a low priority item of course, I have more pressing, game-breaking issues to focus on) and see if I can make it both more interactive and less gruelling.

 

I'm all for that. The first couple of times I went through it, it was an interesting addition, but now it's become something of a slog. Reminds me of the persuasion wheel from Oblivion - tedious. At least it's more immersive than that.

I'm not sure what you'd do to make it better, but I think it might be easy enough to make it shorter...

 

 

[neosuduno]

Vel, seriously, I don't care anymore. Update your mod, or don't. Your call. It's not that you have to. I was looking for common ground and didn't find any. From the get go you went "Either you give me a kill switch for the new system (despite it doesn't affect my mod) or I will quit." Seriously, it's like watching Groundhog Day, for I had a lot of debates like that lately. Except that Groundhog Day is fun.

 

Compromise is built on giving up something and taking something in return. I offered talking values. I offered putting some sort of user-controlled modifier in. I offered to disable some of the new features from the framework items. All I got from you was blackmail: "Do what I demand, or the death of CD will be on your conscience!!!" There was not a single constructive aspect to anything you said. No suggestions. No alternatives. No compromise. Just the equivalent of "Kimy, everything you do and ever did, sucks". Heck, you complain about alleged lack of user control and then you even bitched about the user control I did actually add, which is the debug feature for removing DD items. There doesn't seem to be anything I can do to please you, and I dare saying that it has got little to do with the new escape system. You rejected me the very moment I took over from Min and never contributed anything of substance to DD anymore, no ideas, no suggestions, no code, no feedback. The only reason why we're even talking now is that I spotted you trash-talking DD (apparently the animation filter "sucks" too) and challenged you to elaborate. You act all "How could she just rip my beloved DD from under my feet and change it into a monster?", when you didn't even TRY to speak up when you had the chance to. The new system has been gradually pushed out over the course of MONTHS now. They were mentioned in this thread. You had EVERY chance to speak your mind and get involved. You never said a word. Ever. Until now, when you chose to pour bucket-loads of spite on me from out of nowhere.

 

I said in one of my previous that I had nothing but respect for you. CD was a mod that inspired me and I looked up to. But honestly, I have to use past tense now, as most of this respect is gone. I didn't expect so much vitriol and passive-aggressiveness coming from a person I once looked up to as a modder. As I said, I don't even know why I am still doing this. All of this I/we did for the modders using DD. To make the framework better, and more powerful, and give DD modders using it more freedom and more room for creativity while having less framework overhead to care about. To make content mods better for us bondage lovers to enjoy. All I got in return was rejection and contempt, from the very people the new features were actually meant for. As I said, right now, I just want to do something else that's more fun. Which is literally everything imaginable.

 

I looked at this, and unfortunately Kimy, you are being passive-aggressive yourself. You are not accepting any critique, and I HAVE told you that some of your ideas were bad months ago. If anything, I used to have respect for you with you Deviously Cursed Loot. But then you changed. You became in charge and started changing a lot of things to suit your preferences. The keys I understand, and the ability to make custom versions. But most other things, like removing the shield for people who want the challenge, or removing a means to disable or reduce struggle time for casuals were bad ideas, and others have voiced that.

 

Basically, You let this go to your head. You are not always right. Granted, what you did with the keys for the sake of other modders was the right thing to do. Adding new binding was cool too. You just need to tone down the system changes alot.

 

Also, this is the reason you make builds smaller and more frequent. With a big build, a lot is changed, and if a lot of those changes are unwanted, it is hard to correct later. With smaller builds, unwanted changes by the masses are easier to fix. This is the logic behind most game patches.

 

Edit: One thing I should clarify, You did most things right, but removing options like the shield, difficulty and timer settings were the real problems for me. Everything else was great.