Slavery Mods and Devious x.x.x.x Requirements (rant)

[dinomagick]

I have been looking for a Player/Follower slavery mod like Sanguines Debauchery enhanced <-- WHich is a great mod for Slavery, but all the requirements and sub-requirements (requirements of other required mods), really mess things up.  In particular, but not limited to, the Devious Integration mod.

 

It becomes problem when an animation is being Forced.   Animations that the player doesn't want to use.   Even if there is an Option in the MCM, the Animations cycling become erratic and out of sync.   Many times, the characters performing sex acts become so out of sync, the came CTDs.

 

Why is it that every Slavery Mod requires "Devious INtegration"?   Or is nothing more than a 'front end' to another Slavery Mod like SD+ that has a requirement of Devious this or Devious that.

 

I have tried them all.   SD Had it in the very beginning, with a good theme and easy to use slavery system.  Lost to a bunch of bandits... Forsworn... Falmer...  slavery time...

 

Because of the "Devious Requirements"

Now it is nothing but Armbinder hell... nothing but Blow Job this or that...  character animations stuck or frozen... forced animations...

If I go into MCM and 'adjust' things... CTDs will occur... Turning off Armbinding must be a big no no.. that is where I seem to find the most 'resistance'.  

 

WHY????  I just cant play certain mods like Beeing Female, Fill Her up,  More Nasty Critters.  Hell, even SLAL and Death Alternative addons like Starting as a Slave and ending up as a SLave instead of getting killed.... ..  Nope, those have some sort of scripting conflict with DI or DD or DDx or whatever DD is needing to be used with "X" slavery mod. 

 

And each and every slavery mod I look at, has similar requirements or is hooked, linked through other requirements either to SD+ or Devious Integration and more requirements.

 

How do I know that this is the issue?  Because in every rendition, the removing of  Devious Integration (and all subsequent requirements) stops the problem...   crashes, forced animations, animations out of sync, freezes and even with Realistic Ragdolls, corpses defy gravity and fly off to meet the gods somewhere....  

 

The moment all the "slave" requirements and mods requiring those requirements are removed.... peace... serenity and .... No Slavers or Slavery....  back to the same old Droll...

 

I am not sure why or for what purpose a slavery mod NEEDS Devious Integration or all the requirements.  SexLab 1.63+ is already equipped to expand the Animations with Zaz additions.   Capture,> Enslavement < and a method of release, rescue, auctioning... Obviously, Enslavement will have its own set of challenges.  

 

"Write your own Mod then."   <-  Infant, if I knew how to write a mod I wouldn't be posting this...  

"Why don't you learn how to write a mod then?"  <-  I looked into it, got notepad++ papyrus, watched youtube videos and got the CK....  and I understand the complexity of writing mods.... However, I also work 60 hours a week, family, house, kids.....   ANd I don't spend every free moment on Skyrim or games.  

 

This Rant is basically not about mods or writing mods, it is more of a Question on why the really good Slave Mods have to have all this ....  BLOAT added in order to Enslave?  

Like I said... It's a Rant... All I want to do is play Skyrim in a Realistic and Immersive fashion,  with being Defeated in battle having a consequence other than Death... or Rape and Release...  

[Isenia]

If a mod that's supposed to work doesnt work, reinstalling and removing garbage from your mods list fixes it like 90% of the time, talking from experience, so do that then rant...

[Content Consumer]

No slavery mod needs Devious Devices. It's just a really handy and convenient way to do things. It's already got all of the items, code, etc. set up so the slavery mod author doesn't need to reinvent the wheel... make up new meshes, new scripts, that do exactly the same thing as something that already exists.

Yeah, there are a lot of requirements and sub-requirements. This is bound to happen, unfortunately. One of the reasons I love Loverslab mods so much is that they're not all just retextures and remeshes - they're so often pushing the boundaries of what the engine is even capable of.

 

 

Strong use of paired animations; items that get applied to body slots that aren't even named, much less used, by the vanilla game; extensive use of the event handler; almost all mods using, at least by inheritance, SKSE (which is itself an extension that wasn't planned for in the engine); permanently-equipped items and scripts-calling-spells-calling-scripts; massively inflated skeleton bone numbers, dynamic node scaling, deformable body meshes... and all of this on an engine that was outdated when it was first used in Morrowind, and has had bits bolted on to it ever since. It's amazing that Skyrim works at all given the sheer amount of stuff modders do to it. And sex mods (often) force the issue even further.

 

CG porn I can find anywhere. This is the internet, after all. But mods that do some of the really cool stuff are few and far between.

So there are a lot of bugs, glitches, and crashes - I'll take it, just to smile when I see something really complicated done well.

 

 

EDIT: There's a Rant Thread just for this.

[Content Consumer]

"Write your own Mod then." 

Being told "if you don't like it, do it yourself" is very irritating, I know. Unfortunately, it's the only real answer you can get. Because:

 

I also work 60 hours a week, family, house, kids.....   ANd I don't spend every free moment on Skyrim or games.  

Mod authors aren't all unemployed folks who have absolutely nothing to do all day but learn how to do this either. These mods take a lot of time to get going, and every minute you spend making a mod is a minute you can't spend playing the game, or doing anything else, including working, seeing your family, house maintenance, playing with your kids, etcetera.

So it's a lot easier and cheaper to just use something that already works. It might not work for you, but it does work for the vast majority of users, and rather than spend hours or even days tracking down the one single issue that prevents just you from enjoying just this thing, it's easier to say "sorry, do it yourself."

 

Horrible Car Analogy^TM:

Most people drive just fine in cars with four wheels. Whenever you try to drive a car with four wheels, it inexplicably catches fire. There's no way car dealers or manufacturers are going to go to the great lengths to make cars that can fit you personally when most people have no problems with it.

You can shop around, look for cars with three wheels, two, hovercars, go for boats for a while, but at the end of the day if you can't find a substitute, all anyone's going to tell you is "sorry, build your own car then."

 

I'm sorry if this has come off as dismissive or harsh, it's just that you're complaining that you don't have the free time to learn to mod, while simultaneously complaining that everyone else isn't dropping whatever they're doing to make sure your specific issue doesn't come up.

Devious Devices is trying to do something the Skyrim engine wasn't built for, and there are bound to be problems. And slavery mod authors like using Devious Devices because it's already done most of the work, which means a slavery mod can be released now instead of years from now.

I have not looked at your posts, but I assume you've asked for help on numerous occasions. I'm also assuming that mod authors, or other mod users, have tried to help you. If nobody responded ever, which sometimes happens, it's probably because your issue is so bizarre there is no easy answer. Saying "Write your own Mod then" is either the very last-ditch response, or the first thing someone says when you come off as being too whiny, entitled, and demanding. I'm not saying that's what has happened in this case - like I said, I haven't tried to track down other posts you've made - but that's generally what happens.

[Yossarian13]

Somewhat related to the OP, but the thing that really irks me about SD+ is the DAYMOYL requirement. In my experience, that mod is buggy/unstable as hell, and I really prefer not to have it in my load order. So whenever I see a mod list DAYMOYL as a requirement, I look elsewhere. Which is a shame because SD+ seems pretty great otherwise, and I haven't managed to find an alternative mod that fills its role as effectively.

[jfraser]

Somewhat related to the OP, but the thing that really irks me about SD+ is the DAYMOYL requirement. In my experience, that mod is buggy/unstable as hell, and I really prefer not to have it in my load order. So whenever I see a mod list DAYMOYL as a requirement, I look elsewhere. Which is a shame because SD+ seems pretty great otherwise, and I haven't managed to find an alternative mod that fills its role as effectively.

the latest versions of DA have been very stable for me, but you could always install it but then disable it and get to sd in other ways.

[Content Consumer]

 

Somewhat related to the OP, but the thing that really irks me about SD+ is the DAYMOYL requirement. In my experience, that mod is buggy/unstable as hell, and I really prefer not to have it in my load order. So whenever I see a mod list DAYMOYL as a requirement, I look elsewhere. Which is a shame because SD+ seems pretty great otherwise, and I haven't managed to find an alternative mod that fills its role as effectively.

the latest versions of DA have been very stable for me, but you could always install it but then disable it and get to sd in other ways.

 

 

For instance, Simple Slavery is what I mostly use.

[Yossarian13]

 

 

Somewhat related to the OP, but the thing that really irks me about SD+ is the DAYMOYL requirement. In my experience, that mod is buggy/unstable as hell, and I really prefer not to have it in my load order. So whenever I see a mod list DAYMOYL as a requirement, I look elsewhere. Which is a shame because SD+ seems pretty great otherwise, and I haven't managed to find an alternative mod that fills its role as effectively.

the latest versions of DA have been very stable for me, but you could always install it but then disable it and get to sd in other ways.

 

 

For instance, Simple Slavery is what I mostly use.

 

 

Hmmm, that's interesting. So I could install DA, disable it entirely, set a reasonable chance to trigger Simple Slavery (and, in turn, SD+) via Sexlab Defeat, and in doing so trigger a SD+ scenario without actually using DA at all? If that's the case, I might give it a shot.

[jfraser]

 

 

 

Somewhat related to the OP, but the thing that really irks me about SD+ is the DAYMOYL requirement. In my experience, that mod is buggy/unstable as hell, and I really prefer not to have it in my load order. So whenever I see a mod list DAYMOYL as a requirement, I look elsewhere. Which is a shame because SD+ seems pretty great otherwise, and I haven't managed to find an alternative mod that fills its role as effectively.

the latest versions of DA have been very stable for me, but you could always install it but then disable it and get to sd in other ways.

For instance, Simple Slavery is what I mostly use.

Hmmm, that's interesting. So I could install DA, disable it entirely, set a reasonable chance to trigger Simple Slavery (and, in turn, SD+) via Sexlab Defeat, and in doing so trigger a SD+ scenario without actually using DA at all? If that's the case, I might give it a shot.

yes, that should work

[markdf]

I have been looking for a Player/Follower slavery mod like Sanguines Debauchery enhanced <-- WHich is a great mod for Slavery, but all the requirements and sub-requirements (requirements of other required mods), really mess things up. In particular, but not limited to, the Devious Integration mod.

 

It becomes problem when an animation is being Forced. Animations that the player doesn't want to use. Even if there is an Option in the MCM, the Animations cycling become erratic and out of sync. Many times, the characters performing sex acts become so out of sync, the came CTDs.

 

Why is it that every Slavery Mod requires "Devious INtegration"? Or is nothing more than a 'front end' to another Slavery Mod like SD+ that has a requirement of Devious this or Devious that.

 

I have tried them all. SD Had it in the very beginning, with a good theme and easy to use slavery system. Lost to a bunch of bandits... Forsworn... Falmer... slavery time...

 

Because of the "Devious Requirements"

Now it is nothing but Armbinder hell... nothing but Blow Job this or that... character animations stuck or frozen... forced animations...

If I go into MCM and 'adjust' things... CTDs will occur... Turning off Armbinding must be a big no no.. that is where I seem to find the most 'resistance'.

 

 

WHY???? I just cant play certain mods like Beeing Female, Fill Her up, More Nasty Critters. Hell, even SLAL and Death Alternative addons like Starting as a Slave and ending up as a SLave instead of getting killed.... .. Nope, those have some sort of scripting conflict with DI or DD or DDx or whatever DD is needing to be used with "X" slavery mod.

 

And each and every slavery mod I look at, has similar requirements or is hooked, linked through other requirements either to SD+ or Devious Integration and more requirements.

 

How do I know that this is the issue? Because in every rendition, the removing of Devious Integration (and all subsequent requirements) stops the problem... crashes, forced animations, animations out of sync, freezes and even with Realistic Ragdolls, corpses defy gravity and fly off to meet the gods somewhere....

 

The moment all the "slave" requirements and mods requiring those requirements are removed.... peace... serenity and .... No Slavers or Slavery.... back to the same old Droll...

 

I am not sure why or for what purpose a slavery mod NEEDS Devious Integration or all the requirements. SexLab 1.63+ is already equipped to expand the Animations with Zaz additions. Capture,> Enslavement < and a method of release, rescue, auctioning... Obviously, Enslavement will have its own set of challenges.

 

"Write your own Mod then." <- Infant, if I knew how to write a mod I wouldn't be posting this...

 

"Why don't you learn how to write a mod then?" <- I looked into it, got notepad++ papyrus, watched youtube videos and got the CK.... and I understand the complexity of writing mods.... However, I also work 60 hours a week, family, house, kids..... ANd I don't spend every free moment on Skyrim or games.

 

This Rant is basically not about mods or writing mods, it is more of a Question on why the really good Slave Mods have to have all this .... BLOAT added in order to Enslave?

 

Like I said... It's a Rant... All I want to do is play Skyrim in a Realistic and Immersive fashion, with being Defeated in battle having a consequence other than Death... or Rape and Release...

You work 60 hours a week and have children, and still find time to play Skyrim?! Talk about burying the lead. You must be some kind of time-management ninja.

 

Rather than writing your own mod, have you thought of patching SD+? Probably MUCH easier.

[dinomagick]

 

"Write your own Mod then." 

Being told "if you don't like it, do it yourself" is very irritating, I know. Unfortunately, it's the only real answer you can get. Because:

I'm sorry if this has come off as dismissive or harsh, it's just that you're complaining that you don't have the free time to learn to mod, while simultaneously complaining that everyone else isn't dropping whatever they're doing to make sure your specific issue doesn't come up.

 

I said NO such thing ANYWHERE near that, nor even indirectly imply any level of condescension towards anyone. 

 

I have not looked at your posts,  <- This is obvious, considering the previous comment. 

 

but I assume you've asked for help on numerous occasions. I'm also assuming that mod authors, or other mod users, have tried to help you.

True, I have asked and mod authors have been very helpful.. The  "write your own mod" comment has never come from a Mod Author, but it seems to be players like YOU who just love to say it.

 

If nobody responded ever, which sometimes happens, it's probably because your issue is so bizarre there is no easy answer. Saying "Write your own Mod then" is either the very last-ditch response, or the first thing someone says when you come off as being too whiny, entitled, and demanding. I'm not saying that's what has happened in this case - like I said, I haven't tried to track down other posts you've made - but that's generally what happens.

Nice... passive yet directed without being precisely accusatory...  You a lawyer?

 

Wow.... Just... amazing.  

 

A simple "F off and die BITCH!"  would have been much shorter and easier to write and still achieve the same sentiment.

 

Maybe I will write my mod... I should have plenty of time, according to you.  

But being "Whiny, entitled and demanding."  I should just make it about Whips and Chains versus Bloated Male Egos.  

 

Listen, I normally love and move on... I have no quarrel with anyone and I love coming here to Loverslab and read posts and I am normally very positive and sometimes I am even helpful.  You didn't have to make up your own meaning to what I was saying and frame me in some vendetta against Mod writers or Authors. 

 

I did get some useful information, thank you.  

[Rooker]

I feel you. I look at the list of requirements for some of these mods, then the requirements for the requirements, then the requirements for the requirements of the requirements and pretty soon I'm in a rabbit hole so deep I can't see the sky any more.

 

I don't care for daymoyl myself; it never seems to fire correctly or it just crashes when I'm knocked down. I tried setting it up so Defeat would trigger daymoyl instead of the other way around but it still caused problems. I'm going to try the new version and see if it's any better so I can use SD+ again, but I really hate having it active in my load order. Not a huge fan of DD Integration either. There's nothing wrong with it, I'm just not into bondage and all the MCM defaults assume you are and want it to be as annoying as possible and I spend a good 20-30 minutes just changing those every new game. I'd love if it they made it so I could save my settings to a json file like several other mods have started doing lately.

 

Still, I think it's pretty amazing how well most of the mods here work with each other w/out huge problems. Some of the most sophisticated mods I've ever seen for any game are from this site and most of the modders cooperate with each other like you usually don't see at other modding sites.

[Nazzzgul666]

 

 

"Write your own Mod then." 

Being told "if you don't like it, do it yourself" is very irritating, I know. Unfortunately, it's the only real answer you can get. Because:

I'm sorry if this has come off as dismissive or harsh, it's just that you're complaining that you don't have the free time to learn to mod, while simultaneously complaining that everyone else isn't dropping whatever they're doing to make sure your specific issue doesn't come up.

 

I said NO such thing ANYWHERE near that, nor even indirectly imply any level of condescension towards anyone. 

 

I have not looked at your posts,  <- This is obvious, considering the previous comment. 

 

but I assume you've asked for help on numerous occasions. I'm also assuming that mod authors, or other mod users, have tried to help you.

True, I have asked and mod authors have been very helpful.. The  "write your own mod" comment has never come from a Mod Author, but it seems to be players like YOU who just love to say it.

 

If nobody responded ever, which sometimes happens, it's probably because your issue is so bizarre there is no easy answer. Saying "Write your own Mod then" is either the very last-ditch response, or the first thing someone says when you come off as being too whiny, entitled, and demanding. I'm not saying that's what has happened in this case - like I said, I haven't tried to track down other posts you've made - but that's generally what happens.

Nice... passive yet directed without being precisely accusatory...  You a lawyer?

 

Wow.... Just... amazing.  

 

A simple "F off and die BITCH!"  would have been much shorter and easier to write and still achieve the same sentiment.

 

Maybe I will write my mod... I should have plenty of time, according to you.  

But being "Whiny, entitled and demanding."  I should just make it about Whips and Chains versus Bloated Male Egos.  

 

Listen, I normally love and move on... I have no quarrel with anyone and I love coming here to Loverslab and read posts and I am normally very positive and sometimes I am even helpful.  You didn't have to make up your own meaning to what I was saying and frame me in some vendetta against Mod writers or Authors. 

 

I did get some useful information, thank you.  

 

The main wrong point in your rant is imho: it IS your specific issue, because i run all* those and more mods at once without any problems, with proper settings. During ~500 hours of playing skyrim, and at least 400 of them with DDi installed, i don't have your issues. I think i had a crash when opening an MCM once, but that was because MO had an error during installation of the mod and i ignored it. Many mods using DDi are totally stable and fine. I often had some problems with SD+, but most likely they are related to scriptlag, and i have some script heavy mods i want to use. Now i can rant  about SD+, any other mod using scripts, try to get it stable, or decide for one of these mods. Guess who's to blame here if things don't work.

There are some guides, mods and settings to make a script heavy game more stable. If you don't use them, or you don't have the hardware to run certain mods, well... take it or leave it. And it's not that i'd have the high-end gamer machine, i've paid ~700€ one years ago and could probably have a better deal, i didn't spend much time searching after my old one died because of heat and age.

 

DA: I just upgraded from a quite old version and can't say if it became better or not, but with that i had even more problems than with SD+, at least if i wanted to use it's quests. Actually i turned pretty much everything off except the "defeat handles bleedout" option, that worked for me. 

 

 

So in general, if a mod doesn't work, it's usually a good idea to search the reason in this very mod. Not in a framework that is totally stable and that's why it's used by almost all slavery mods. Yes, sometime vibration triggers during sex animations and breaks them, there is a hotkey in sexlab to adjust actors again after that. Or turn the vibrations off if you don't like it to ever happen. There are some broken animations especially in ZaZ, that isn't DDs fault, though, so you can fix it there either.

You could turn them off in sexlab, then there are only few animations left if totally bound, i agree. And i wish there would be more. But it's even more likely that i learn how to make animations in some magical way than it'll get done by complaining.

 

*i didn't really try the DA addons because the few i tried never really worked for me. It's a known bug in DA, though, not in DD. The new version has a fix for the screen staying black, maybe i'll try them again now.

 

Oh, and one last thing: You CAN help things getting better without learning how to mod. SD+ has, not sure, something around 100? known bugs with unknown reasons on github. skyrimLL is searching for ppl to test, reproduce and report the results, so he is able to fix them. If you want a stable SD+, that's the way to go imho. But don't think that proper testing is less work than modding, it's not like just saying "something doesn't work" and go on.

[Kendo 2]

@ dinomagick

I'm right there with you on the whole 'DD' thing.  For me the 'problem' isn't really the framework or the integration done by the DD team.  Those work fine on their own.  The problem I have are mods made by others using the framework.  The more 'innovative' an 'creative' they are, the more bugs and outright broken shit there is.  It isn't the DD team's fault, it's the people using their frame work to make fucked up mods who are causing the problems.

Until recently I didn't have any DD content installed because without fail the mods using it conflict somehow or have jacked mod mechanics.  I know a big part of the problem is Skyrim itself, but there comes a point where enough is enough.  When I fire up the game it is TO PLAY, not play for 20 minutes, see some poorly written dialogue and pop up messages and have animations that otherwise work not work.  It's fucking annoying.

 

Something else that's really annoying is the repetitive nature of some of these mods.  Your comment about armbinders and blow jobs is spot on, right along with chastity belts and plugs.  The mods I've played that have random events ALWAYS go to armbinders and belts by default.  The devices are interesting and funny once or twice, but after that they're just buzz-kill.

 

Anyway, the inherent problems with DD mods killed my interest in using the framework at all.  Outside of the two quests added by Integration and a maybe three other mods everything else is fucked or totally fucked.  When I see a new DD-based mod now I usually pass on it.  Not even going to bother.

 

And to the inevitable 'make your owns mods' smart-asses...I DO make my own mods and chances are I've made more mods than you.

[Content Consumer]

 

A simple "F off and die BITCH!"  would have been much shorter and easier to write and still achieve the same sentiment.

 

 

I apologize for causing offense. That was not my intention.

[DeepBlueFrog]

There is a simple reason most slavery mods use frameworks like DD, ZAP, DA, Aroused and so on.

These frameworks save us (modders) a lot of time we would have to spend rewriting the same thing over and over.

 

Take DD for example.

 

Before adding it as a requirement to SD, I had to maintain my own system to detect, add and remove devices. 

This system was incompatible with all other mods because it was baked in SD.

 

Same with DA. Before adding it to SD, I had to maintain my own near death detection system, which was incompatible with Submit, Defeat, etc.

At now that all these mods share the same awareness of DA, we have a prayer at making them work better together.

 

Believe it or not, but as buggy and sometimes overlapping the current mods ecosystem is, it used to be much much worse.

 

Add to that the lack of time to rewrite past mistakes or just learn how these framework actually work, and just plain weirdness from the Skyrim editor and scripting engine, and we end up with the current situation.

 

I hear you and I deal with the same rant myself every time I work on Skyrim... Frankly, I would rather spend time developing quests and actual content than fighting with weird interactions between my mods, the frameworks they rely on, mods like FNIS or SOS, and the game engine itself.

[Torkya]

Part of the issue I see with slavery mods in general is that the DD mod framework is a hard dependency rather than an optional. I would love to play many of the slavery mods that live on LL but I'm not into the whole devices thing.

 

Is DD where the enslavement code lives (which kind of implies the slavery mods are quest mods for DD) or do slavery mods have their own make someone a slave code and DD is there because it's the mod authors desire to have DD's device content in their mod (which is completely their choice)?

 

From my perspective its an understanding thing, I don't understand the need for DD to be a requirement for a slavery mod (and this is my own ignorance of mod development here) rather than an optional enhancement. Skyrimll mentioned mod awareness and the question I would ask is, is there a way / chance that some / any of the slave mods here on LL could be adjusted to loosen the dependency on DD so that if it isnt installed the slavery mod just doesn't try to slap people in armbinders or chastity belts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DeepBlueFrog]

Hard to make it a soft dependency for slavery mods. That would mean slavery without managing collars, hand cuffs, gags, etc

[Kendo 2]

Yeah I agree, and as 'bare bones' as Zaz is it still has the same problems when multiple mods are calling on it.  I think the only real solution is to be very picky about what mods people want to use and then limit the number.  That's what I've resorted to and though I don't have a ton of diversity in my game I don't have a lot of problems either.

[Grine]

Hard to make it a soft dependency for slavery mods. That would mean slavery without managing collars, hand cuffs, gags, etc

 

IMO Slavery mods need to be about more gameplay options rather than restricting them.

That tends to make the gameplay something of a dialogue option puzzle piece or a waiting game to get a reaction.

 

Maria Eden, at least in the first instances, really interested me but the instability killed it for me.

[Rooker]

Obviously you'd need to tie up a slave somehow, but the tools for that are already present. Vanilla Skyrim comes with wrist binds, shackles, gags, forced follow AI packages, a bound hands animation, tied-up-kneeling animation and probably other things. You even start the game with bound hands, at least without an alternate start mod, and Ulfric starts out wearing a gag. ZaZ I can also understand in a slavery mod, since it adds useable torture devices and such.

 

I don't see what value is added by having another 3-6 or more restraint mods as hard requirements, building support for them all and then hoping none of them update in a way that causes problems with your own mod. Especially since ZaZ also adds quite a few restraints as well. Bondage mods and enslavement mods seem to me to be two vaguely similar but mostly different things glued together just for the sake of having slightly more variety in hand cuffs.

[Torkya]

I guess it may be differing views of what slavery is, to me slavery is not B&D, it may include that (hence an DD as an option) but that isn't necessarily the basis of slavery.

 

Similarly Defeat allows you to tie up a defeated opponent and hand them off to guards or to prostitute them without a hard dependency on DD anything other than SexLab which is logical since it's a combat sex mod.

 

The bottom line is the mod makers make what they want to make, no reason why someone who felt strongly enough about it couldn't propose/request a non-DD dependent slavery mod in the request thread.

[Bottlesoldier]

I've had to pass a number of mods because of Devious Devices...

 

Pretty much all my Sexlab oriented mods aim towards Defeat with some immersion. That said, Devious Devices (and integration) does pretty much the opposite of immersion... And it adds a lot of "you can't do anything" inbetween.

[Nazzzgul666]

Part of the issue I see with slavery mods in general is that the DD mod framework is a hard dependency rather than an optional. I would love to play many of the slavery mods that live on LL but I'm not into the whole devices thing.

 

Is DD where the enslavement code lives (which kind of implies the slavery mods are quest mods for DD) or do slavery mods have their own make someone a slave code and DD is there because it's the mod authors desire to have DD's device content in their mod (which is completely their choice)?

 

From my perspective its an understanding thing, I don't understand the need for DD to be a requirement for a slavery mod (and this is my own ignorance of mod development here) rather than an optional enhancement. Skyrimll mentioned mod awareness and the question I would ask is, is there a way / chance that some / any of the slave mods here on LL could be adjusted to loosen the dependency on DD so that if it isnt installed the slavery mod just doesn't try to slap people in armbinders or chastity belts?

 

Depends on what you expect from slavery. Generally spoken, i'd say it's both slavery code and what the modders want to have. See more below.

Obviously you'd need to tie up a slave somehow, but the tools for that are already present. Vanilla Skyrim comes with wrist binds, shackles, gags, forced follow AI packages, a bound hands animation, tied-up-kneeling animation and probably other things. You even start the game with bound hands, at least without an alternate start mod, and Ulfric starts out wearing a gag. ZaZ I can also understand in a slavery mod, since it adds useable torture devices and such.

 

I don't see what value is added by having another 3-6 or more restraint mods as hard requirements, building support for them all and then hoping none of them update in a way that causes problems with your own mod. Especially since ZaZ also adds quite a few restraints as well. Bondage mods and enslavement mods seem to me to be two vaguely similar but mostly different things glued together just for the sake of having slightly more variety in hand cuffs.

 

Yes, all necessary meshes are there. But wrist binds don't prevent you fighting. Vanilla gags don't pervent you from shouting, talking, eating. DD items do, and that's the whole point about it. Nobody wants to make a mod (and i wouldn't like to play it) where the player controls are disabled for one hour or something and you just watch your toon following his masters commands. DD is the edge between taking away controls and leaving some at the same time. 

You could say "But that's roleplay! I won't just kill my master because i can!" Maybe you wouldn't. But then it's not that far to take a vanilla follower and say "I imagine this is my master and i have to follow his commands." Don't get me wrong, i don't oppose a mod where everything is roleplay, i'd probably play it and have a lot of fun if dialogues and story are nice. But especially in SD+, where killing your master is a planned option to get your freedom back, it's a big difference if you do that with armbinders and DD gags, or wrists and vanilla gags.

 

I agree that the use of armbinders for example could be reduced in Slaverun reloaded without missing atmosphere or conditions or anything. Suggest it, and it might be done. Other mods like cursed loot and captured dreams are bondage mods with some slavery content, though, not the other way around. And i don't think anybody plays dcul with default values, at least not very long, but you can change fucking everything.

 

Isles of Mara is a huge slavery mod with a total of 1-2 scenes where it uses DD at the player, i don't see a point here in complaining. Yes, it's gay, but we don't talk about too much gay mods, besides it's totally fine to play it with a female toon. And if somebody bothers to change the slaves into females, i'd love to use it.

 

Shout like a virgin doesn't use an armbinder at all, well, not sure if it can be considered slavery.

 

So, when you say "All slavery mods need DD and lock me in armbinders all the time", which mods are you talking about? Serious question, maybe i missed some.

 

Hard to make it a soft dependency for slavery mods. That would mean slavery without managing collars, hand cuffs, gags, etc

 

IMO Slavery mods need to be about more gameplay options rather than restricting them.

That tends to make the gameplay something of a dialogue option puzzle piece or a waiting game to get a reaction.

 

Maria Eden, at least in the first instances, really interested me but the instability killed it for me.

 

Aye, same here. And imho part of the problam is that zaira made his own things instead of using existing solutions.

I mean, it's his decision and everything, but i couldn't play it for more than 30 minutes without breaking things, so i don't play it at all anymore.

 

But when you talk about "more gameplay options instead of restricting them", what do you have in mind? Maybe i'm a bit tired, but i don't see a point in giving slaves options free players don't have. Or do you mean things like the kneeling to progress in ME? Then i agree, there are some nice things. But as you can see there, not easy to make them work properly in Skyrim.

 

Finally, if one of those would like to try some again: you can escape the armbinders any time. It took me month to figure out that struggling out is always an option, it's just random chances and might take many tries. To increase chances with every try for example is something i'd totally agree with.

 

 

[windpl]

Only I finding this rant about player slavery req, ironic?