Perhaps it's time for LL to implement some Patreon policies?

[windpl]

The two instances I'm aware involve Sims modding.

 

One mod for Sims3 gets regular updates and new content for the 'donor version' while the free version is ignored.  Another mod for Sims4 has two versions; the good one with exclusive content for donors and then the regular version for everyone else.  No matter how it's sliced they have content behind paywalls and are using LL to advertise their mods.

 

Not aware of anything like this happening for a Bethesda game mod but I don't follow Bethesda modding anymore.

 

Taking in to account that in ts3 case such content was requested over several years and there is only few creators I wouldn't be so sure if I want see them gone. Nerveless they do provide free contend, and are pitted against heavy piracy (that's why im so bitchy if anyone cares).

 

[arpaschad]

I don't know...if a content maker creates something really good and has a patreon page for it and doesn't do any shotgun persuasion tactics to get him/her to support their work, then it is only natural as a decent person to donate to support their work even if it is free...because you like it and you want to see more of their works and you understand that what they do takes a modicum of resources in their part...if they do it for the love of it and does not expect anything though I will kinda feel bad about getting content from them...and even more sad if they suddenly stopped doing it...

 

I don't know about the prerogative rights of content makers to establish paywalls however...have seen many other blogs in tumblr artists who do it but their work is really top notch...

 

"If you're good at something...never do it for free.."-Heath Ledger's Joker

 

although that would be counter to what LL have established in the beginning in this community...well it's up to the admins to regulate it...touchy subject indeed...

[zzz72w3r]

 

The thorny issues are:

1. How to enforce those policies?

2. What happens when someone uses LL as an incubator for pay-to-play?  A mod can start development here by meeting every LL policy but then switch to pay-to-play (real or de facto) behind Patreon once it has picked up enough patrons from here.

Out of curiosity is this a "the principle" thing or are we actually talking about a reasonable amount of money? since the answer to that would greatly affect the answer to question 1 and 2

 

 

LL has a policy of hosting only free mods so it is a "principle" thing.  However, Patreon is tricky in that it is a subscription platform in that you don't "purchase" anything but rather subscribe to a monthly payment to support a creator.  It is designed to support arts, ala the centuries old patronage system.

 

You may already see where this can be an issue with mods on LL.  Unlike typical arts where everything in the workflows can be consumed as standalone, a long time can happen between big software releases and not all versions in between is suitable for the public.  This is true for always-free and pay-to-play authors alike.  The difference is that pay-to-play will game the releases to maximize earnings. 

 

Interestingly here on LL we actually have something close to a controlled experiment.  Sexlab is free and is only a small part of what LL/Ashal provides to the public.  LL uses Patreon but treats its supporters and non-supporters equally.  A Sims3 mod in question started here on LL and offers similar features as Sexlab.  For a long time now updates and fixes to the mod have been Patreon only despite claims of it being "free".  When I last checked, that mod's monthly Patreon support was much higher than what LL is getting.  Pay-to-play clearly is a factor whether intended or not. 

 

Q:

Besides Patreon is there any better way to support creators financially?  -At present, no. 

Would the Sims3 mod make as much without first introduced here on LL?  -Very likely no.

Would the Sims3 mod make as much if it treats Patreon and LL users the same?  -Surely no.

Is the said Sims3 mod free or not?  -It was, now technically maybe but in practice most would say no.

 

Thus, the issue is not about paid vs. free mods or how much money a creator is getting.  It's about Ashal not wanting pay-to-play to be on LL and what LL should do in the age of Patreon.

[Gameplayer]

This doesn't belong in the general pool.

 

We're going to end up having people who have never and would never donate, or give in excess of 3 months of their lives to the community.

And I say those individuals don't get a say.

 

Its just a bit much having individuals who know nothing about the process weighing in on these topics like they know something or have done something for the community at large.  Happens all the time in other forums and too often here on LL, doing checks on people that are quite loud often shows that they are people who have provided zilch to the community other than a mouth and another body of entitlement.

 

Without any real investment of yourself how are actual content providers supposed to take a topic like this seriously?

 

[panthercom]

The two most major issues as I see them:

 

1. Some SimLab mods specifically, along with others, have been given a pass thus far regarding the use of Patreon as a method of pay-wall, which is against LoversLab policy as we have discussed it internally. Their impact on LL as a whole has lead me to be hesitant towards these specific mods thus far - this needs to change for the betterment of the site in the long term and I will initiate contact with the relevant authors soon to hopefully correct this matter peacefully.

 

2. The fact that LL itself is maintained via Patreon, gives me pause to act in most cases here. Wrongly or not - it forces me to second guess every choice regarding  either. I clearly struggle to come up some what sort of content I could myself provide supporters of the LL Patreon that aren't already given. Every week that passes on the LoversLab Patreon without some sort of post update regarding the site's, SexLab, or SexTec progress eats away at me personally. 

 

My only excuse is a pathetic - "I know; stuff is happening, but nothing worth reporting yet..." Which is something that simply feels to shallow to post in any sort of official capacity.

 

 I don't expect any favors for contributing to LL via Patreon; it's simply a convenient way of donating, and nothing more.

I'd use PayPal instead if that was available, to be honest, but I'm not messing around with those newfangled Bitcoins.

 Just make it clear that what you get for you donation is the survival of the site; nothing more needs to be said.

 

[spoonsinger]

 

The two most major issues as I see them:

 

1. Some SimLab mods specifically, along with others, have been given a pass thus far regarding the use of Patreon as a method of pay-wall, which is against LoversLab policy as we have discussed it internally. Their impact on LL as a whole has lead me to be hesitant towards these specific mods thus far - this needs to change for the betterment of the site in the long term and I will initiate contact with the relevant authors soon to hopefully correct this matter peacefully.

 

2. The fact that LL itself is maintained via Patreon, gives me pause to act in most cases here. Wrongly or not - it forces me to second guess every choice regarding  either. I clearly struggle to come up some what sort of content I could myself provide supporters of the LL Patreon that aren't already given. Every week that passes on the LoversLab Patreon without some sort of post update regarding the site's, SexLab, or SexTec progress eats away at me personally. 

 

My only excuse is a pathetic - "I know; stuff is happening, but nothing worth reporting yet..." Which is something that simply feels to shallow to post in any sort of official capacity.

 

 I don't expect any favors for contributing to LL via Patreon; it's simply a convenient way of donating, and nothing more.

I'd use PayPal instead if that was available, to be honest, but I'm not messing around with those newfangled Bitcoins.

 Just make it clear that what you get for you donation is the survival of the site; nothing more needs to be said.

 

 

 

What they said....

 

 

[gregathit]

This doesn't belong in the general pool.

 

We're going to end up having people who have never and would never donate, or give in excess of 3 months of their lives to the community.

And I say those individuals don't get a say.

 

Its just a bit much having individuals who know nothing about the process weighing in on these topics like they know something or have done something for the community at large.  Happens all the time in other forums and too often here on LL, doing checks on people that are quite loud often shows that they are people who have provided zilch to the community other than a mouth and another body of entitlement.

 

Without any real investment of yourself how are actual content providers supposed to take a topic like this seriously?

 

One part of me agrees with you, however, another disagrees quite strongly.  Just because someone has not yet contributed, doesn't not mean they won't.  I'm a good case in point, for the first couple of years, I first just mooched, then as I put in the time (and received lots of help) I started contributing by providing tech support.  As my understanding grew, and modders began to move on, I saw that mods that I had grown to care about were getting neglected and no one else was stepping up, I reached a tipping point and threw myself into the fray.  It certainly wasn't pretty and it has never been smooth.  Each mod I translate or overhaul brings me to the painful conclusion that I don't know crap and am forced to learn new things, often at a painfully slow pace, and rely on the help of others to bail me out when I get myself stuck.  

 

When I jointed, I never planned on becoming a modder, I was quite content to suck up everything and anything others produced.  But, circumstances changed and I faced my own crossroads.  Clearly I'm an idiot, as I not only dove into the modding pool, but I took on being a moderator as well.  My avatar is an acknowledgement of my idiocy.  

 

While LL makes no secret of putting modders first (it is right in the forum rules), those who do not mod, are still members, and they do deserve some say in what could be a crossroads type of event IMHO.

[Molevalence]

People will contribute to what they are passionate for and that takes time. I've been a member for a few years now and only this year became a contributor. Forcing/Demanding will do nothing and make people turn away. Also falsifying will come back to bite you in the ass.

 

I contribute because over the years people have helped me with modding to a point where I know more than I thought I would ever know. I have a general idea how modding works but still cant make a mod myself after countless hours of trying and dozens of help videos. I guess some people can't do it. I still dont know how overwrites work on MO. Anyway, my point is since I cannot make mods to give back to the community I will do the next best thing and donate simply because I love this community. Many people probably feel this way too.

 

As for paying for mods? Honestly that depends on how much you want it. It's the modders right to charge but it's also your right to accept to pay or the right to refuse. Don't condemn them just because they put a price on their work. I bought a couple presets off modders and I don't care. I wanted it that badly whats a couple dollars? If the modders want to overcharge for their work then clearly no one will want it. I know if I COULD mod I wouldn't charge but that's MY choice.  

[Guest Verethragna]

my comment was deleted? so funny. that level of ego needed to be confronted.

 

let me comment again so it can get deleted. Ashal specifically wanted opinions from others. not just contributors or supporters. anyone below him shouldn't have a say. wanna throw a tantrum about it? open a thread in the contributing thread and keep it away from everyone else. since no one is worthy below supporter title to you.

[Guest]

my comment was deleted? so funny. that level of ego needed to be confronted.

 

let me comment again so it can get deleted. Ashal specifically wanted opinions from others. not just contributors or supporters. anyone below him shouldn't have a say. wanna throw a tantrum about it? open a thread in the contributing thread and keep it away from everyone else. since no one is worthy below supporter title to you.

 

Hello.

Yes, your previous post was hidden. There is no note for the motivation, but by reading it, I can guess it was hidden because you were insulting another member.

 

Everybody is free to provide their opinions. No matter if the are in one direction or another.

But we try to avoid to have bitching and insulting posts.

 

Kind Regards,

[nightshad]

The thing that happend with Breeding Seasons has me troubled. What will LL do if something like that happens? How will the patrons get refunded if this happens the refund point where refund is not possible.

 

Modder decides he made enough money leaves the mod unfinished and full of bugs then refuses to refund his supporters of their money. H-Bomb did that did he not?

 

Hate to see LL get dragged into court over some legal issue caused by a greedy modder?

 

buyer/supporter beware I know but when is that not an isscuse for money laundry?

[Vaelorian]

This doesn't belong in the general pool.

 

We're going to end up having people who have never and would never donate, or give in excess of 3 months of their lives to the community.

And I say those individuals don't get a say.

 

Its just a bit much having individuals who know nothing about the process weighing in on these topics like they know something or have done something for the community at large.  Happens all the time in other forums and too often here on LL, doing checks on people that are quite loud often shows that they are people who have provided zilch to the community other than a mouth and another body of entitlement.

 

Without any real investment of yourself how are actual content providers supposed to take a topic like this seriously?

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with just about everything you've said.

 

As a guy who frequently provides tech support and occasionally shares some of the content he makes, I value each and every single one of the people who have decided to heed my advice - who took the time to read, comprehend, and act on my suggestions.

I also value every single person who took the time to download and enjoy my work.

 

The fact that I have helped someone in my free time is reward enough. I am not here to make a profit, and I will never even consider the possibility to demand someone pay me for what I am doing here.

That goes against the very spirit of modding, as far as I am concerned, and invariably brings needless strife and arguments about pricing, who gets a cut, who can and cannot edit etc etc.

 

It brings toxicity and a cancerous mentality to what should be first and foremost a passion project - all of us, all over the world, are joining together to create the game we want to play. Not because we're paid to do it, but because we ourselves want to play it, and if each modder contributes just one single brick to the grand palace of a modded game then we will achieve this dream.

 

You want to make content as a job and sell it? Get a store. Sell it there. Such ideas have no place on any forum that prides itself as a community.

[Veniat]

I've cancelled quite a few Patreon subs cause of the various Paywall schemes going on, my general rules that if they go over two private updates without releasing anything to the public they're asking for payments, not donations.  

 

In general the payments they're asking for per month are in no way worth the actual work done since it's always per month specifically over per release or as a bulk payment. 

 

I was a patron for one of the Sims 4 mods on here but I stopped donating after a lack of public releases, I didn't even consider donating to a Sims 3 one as the public blog hasn't been updated in months. 

 

I think a lot of the modders on Patreon forget that Patreon is meant for donations, people are meant to be donating to your project in this case, not paying for it. 

 

I kinda wish LL was a bit stricter on the paywall modders without touching the ones that do it for donations - like offering benefits to donors maybe, but not holding back any updates from the general public. 

[Kendo 2]

One benefit could be they don't get their mods hidden from public view when they start bilking people for cash.  What really needs to happen IMO is mod users need to start reporting these Paetron modders when there is even a hint of a 'pay-to-play' scheme.  One problem with that is the staff has been reluctant to do anything because of the situation and the ambiguity.  A clear and concise set of rules would fix that.

 

*LL mods associated with Paetron are free for everyone to use, regardless if they donate or not.

*No content behind paywalls.

*No exclusive releases for donors only.  Everyone has access or you can't host it here.

 

One way to to stop the 'donors only content' TODAY is to enforce Rule #12.  Why this hasn't happened is a mystery since it is a long-standing rule in place before this Paetron thing started.  This rule violation is obviously a problem since we're talking about it publicly.  So why isn't anything being done to stop people from charging for content when the rule already exists?  Fucking enforce it and tough shit if people don't like it.  They agreed to the rules when they became a member.  END. OF. STORY.

[Shadowscale]

I agree. Too many are using Patreon these days as support me and receive 2000% more exclusive content (artists are the usual suspects for this really, modders may reach that point in time) compared to what they release to their public that got them popular in the first place.

[windpl]

Pay modding is just matter of time. I would rather suggest to start thinking about shame that will support modding collectivity. Considering that some shity project on panteon can generate 2k+, and are not even close to quality produced by many mod authors here. Free moding is all fine and dandy but it won't survive, it will live for some time and that time is defined by old modders - how long they will stay in modding. Clock is ticking.

[Guest]

...

 

I don't fully agree.

Some mod authors do modding for passion. And also in the far future, there will still be somebody that will have that as passion.

Consider that there are thousands of game creators (not mod creators, game creators) that do games for free and without requiring actual payments.

And in some cases the games are really good (at least as concept and pliability.)

[shidoni]

It's kinda funny that such heavy responses were provoked, not to mention someone tried to insult another member because of their opinion/vision upon the matter.
Let us all remember that LL does not stand alone with this topic.

[peculiaris]

Where I live its hard to even get money over to patreon... Having a creditcard here is seen as weird and something only companies do, And from expierence I know that most thing flagged as nsfw cant be funded with paypal... So most of the the time I see someone mention Patreon I feel dissapointed because its a wall I can't go past.

 

Well that my 2 cents.

[Ashal]

And from expierence I know that most thing flagged as nsfw cant be funded with paypal...

 

This has actually changed semi-recently. They started accepting paypal for adult patreon projects a few months ago.

[peculiaris]

 

And from expierence I know that most thing flagged as nsfw cant be funded with paypal...

This has actually changed semi-recently. They started accepting paypal for adult patreon projects a few months ago.

Wow who would have guessed those old people in charge of paypal would change with the time..

[pinky6225]

One benefit could be they don't get their mods hidden from public view when they start bilking people for cash.  What really needs to happen IMO is mod users need to start reporting these Paetron modders when there is even a hint of a 'pay-to-play' scheme.  One problem with that is the staff has been reluctant to do anything because of the situation and the ambiguity.  A clear and concise set of rules would fix that.

 

*LL mods associated with Paetron are free for everyone to use, regardless if they donate or not.

*No content behind paywalls.

*No exclusive releases for donors only.  Everyone has access or you can't host it here.

 

One way to to stop the 'donors only content' TODAY is to enforce Rule #12.  Why this hasn't happened is a mystery since it is a long-standing rule in place before this Paetron thing started.  This rule violation is obviously a problem since we're talking about it publicly.  So why isn't anything being done to stop people from charging for content when the rule already exists?  Fucking enforce it and tough shit if people don't like it.  They agreed to the rules when they became a member.  END. OF. STORY.

 

I think acting on "hints" will only cause more trouble than the issue your trying to deal with

 

Just for clarification we are considering any author that provides access to unreleased/beta/work in progress stuff to there patreon donators to be a pay wall?

 

[Kendo 2]

Just for clarification we are considering any author that provides access to unreleased/beta/work in progress stuff to there patreon donators to be a pay wall?

 

Rhetorical Questions: Why isn't it accessible to everyone?  Why do people have to pay if they want the content?

 

The issue is two-fold.

People are charging money for exclusive access to content.  If I can't download the content without 'donating' then it's behind a paywall.  Beta/test/whatever.

If it's behind a paywall or if people have to donate to access it then it IS against the rules.

 

Rule #12

We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content. 

 

Does that answer your question?

[pinky6225]

 

Just for clarification we are considering any author that provides access to unreleased/beta/work in progress stuff to there patreon donators to be a pay wall?

 

Rhetorical Questions: Why isn't it accessible to everyone?  Why do people have to pay if they want the content?

 

The issue is two-fold.

People are charging money for exclusive access to content.  If I can't download the content without 'donating' then it's behind a paywall.  Beta/test/whatever.

If it's behind a paywall or if people have to donate to access it then it IS against the rules.

 

Rule #12

We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content. 

 

Does that answer your question?

 

 

Not really no and thinking about it and if we are being very anal does not the benefit of the $750 mile stone break rule 12 - it doesn't literally say patreon supporters only but you would only know about it by visiting the patreon site which if you do not donate you have no reason to

 

So if i have mod version 1.0 here on LL and i decide to carry on development and make version 2.0 and while i'm doing that i allow patreon donators the chance to beta test it for me i'm breaking the rules? version 1.0 is still here and free for all, you only know about the existance of version 2.0 by either me telling you about it or by donating so how are we breaking the rules? Also there seems quite a sense of entitlement there that if you use version 1 of my mod you should have access to version 2

 

Sticking a mirror download to a pay site and having dead links on the LL download page is more to my mind the sort of behavior rule 12 is aimed at or creating version 1 of a mod and then sticking version 2 of it elsewhere where you have to pay and having links to it on the version 1 page and thus making it into an advertisement for version 2

[Vaelorian]

 

 

Just for clarification we are considering any author that provides access to unreleased/beta/work in progress stuff to there patreon donators to be a pay wall?

 

Rhetorical Questions: Why isn't it accessible to everyone?  Why do people have to pay if they want the content?

 

The issue is two-fold.

People are charging money for exclusive access to content.  If I can't download the content without 'donating' then it's behind a paywall.  Beta/test/whatever.

If it's behind a paywall or if people have to donate to access it then it IS against the rules.

 

Rule #12

We are a free and open community; members requiring payment for mods, support, or putting anything behind a paywall will be removed without warning. Donation buttons/links to support an author is fine, so long as nothing is promised, given, or rewarded other than a sense of satisfaction for supporting an author or owner of content. 

 

Does that answer your question?

 

 

Not really no and thinking about it and if we are being very anal does not the benefit of the $750 mile stone break rule 12 - it doesn't literally say patreon supporters only but you would only know about it by visiting the patreon site which if you do not donate you have no reason to

 

So if i have mod version 1.0 here on LL and i decide to carry on development and make version 2.0 and while i'm doing that i allow patreon donators the chance to beta test it for me i'm breaking the rules? version 1.0 is still here and free for all, you only know about the existance of version 2.0 by either me telling you about it or by donating so how are we breaking the rules? Also there seems quite a sense of entitlement there that if you use version 1 of my mod you should have access to version 2

 

Sticking a mirror download to a pay site and having dead links on the LL download page is more to my mind the sort of behavior rule 12 is aimed at or creating version 1 of a mod and then sticking version 2 of it elsewhere and having links to it on the version 1 page

 

 

I believe he was very clearly saying "Yes, it is against the rules."

Access to a beta version is a reward of some kind. If those are provided, even if they are not mentioned anywhere, then it breaks the rules, as they very clearly state that "nothing is promised, given or rewarded".

Remember that our glorious gaming industry executives are promising alpha and beta access as kickstarter rewards. Key word there, "rewards".

 

Any other stance allows modders to create fake "beta" versions that aren't beta, and just delay the release of all updates. Or worse, create "beta" features that never come out of beta despite being complete. The modders in this scenario will consistently say they are still working on the features, and aren't happy with them in their current form. This creates the exclusive feature problem, without actually announcing it as such, and is a work-around the rules that will be difficult to catch (strict rules on beta features would be bad; "You have to release a feature within X version changes"? What if it really isn't ready and is unstable?).

 

Another scenario: modder decides to continue development, and only lets his backers beta test. He gets to a point he is satisfied with the stability of the new version, but loses interest. It's still a beta version, right? So it's backer-only. But since he lost interest he won't fully "finish" the new version for an indeterminable amount of time (possibly, not at all). The new version will stay as "backer-only" for that duration (it's still in beta!) and we have now reached the "exclusive content for backers" through yet another back-door.

 

Now about your next point: entitlement.

If you want traffic from a forum but don't feel you should be made to abide by it's rules (which you have agreed to) and still feel you should get the traffic, downloads, publicity and eventual revenue from people being exposed to your work and donating - then who's actually entitled here?

 

Nobody's forcing you to post your works here. You don't want to, then don't. But none of that "half-way" business. That's just shady.

 

With all that said, one thing you can do to guarantee more people check out your patreon page is to post the link to the new beta versions there. Still free to download without donating, but forcing people to actually go to your patreon page increases the likelyhood that they will donate since they are already there.

This does not break rule #12, or any other rule as far as I'm aware.