Perhaps it's time for LL to implement some Patreon policies?

[zzz72w3r]

Just to get things clear I think Patreon is a good platform and personally support a number of projects including LL.  This is about LL being a very popular community and its policy of hosting only free mods. 

 

In Bethesda forums this is a nonissue as all its Patreon authors do not separate their user base.  Sims forum is a different story and creators want to reward their Patreon supporters.  There has been numerous flare-ups this year.  

 

A clear official policy regarding the most popular Patreon rewards on LL would be helpful such as:

1. The duration of exclusive preview window before public release.

2. The discrepancy between public vs. patron-only releases in regard to both content and frequency.

 

The thorny issues are:

1. How to enforce those policies?

2. What happens when someone uses LL as an incubator for pay-to-play?  A mod can start development here by meeting every LL policy but then switch to pay-to-play (real or de facto) behind Patreon once it has picked up enough patrons from here. 

 

Personally I don't know if there is any good answer to the two questions above.

[Kaz Aanh]

smart people will create tumblr and move there to create patreons

[Ashal]

Agreed. We've had an internal policy regarding it for some time now, one that we've thus far been overly lax with.

 

As time moves on though - it increasingly needs to be solidified in some official capacity.

 

We will hopefully do so soon. It will be a hard task ultimately though, as obviously not everybody immediately affected by it will agree. It is an increasingly important task regardless. One that only becomes more difficult the longer we wait.

[Ashal]

The two most major issues as I see them:

 

1. Some SimLab mods specifically, along with others, have been given a pass thus far regarding the use of Patreon as a method of pay-wall, which is against LoversLab policy as we have discussed it internally. Their impact on LL as a whole has lead me to be hesitant towards these specific mods thus far - this needs to change for the betterment of the site in the long term and I will initiate contact with the relevant authors soon to hopefully correct this matter peacefully.

 

2. The fact that LL itself is maintained via Patreon, gives me pause to act in most cases here. Wrongly or not - it forces me to second guess every choice regarding  either. I clearly struggle to come up some what sort of content I could myself provide supporters of the LL Patreon that aren't already given. Every week that passes on the LoversLab Patreon without some sort of post update regarding the site's, SexLab, or SexTec progress eats away at me personally. 

 

My only excuse is a pathetic - "I know; stuff is happening, but nothing worth reporting yet..." Which is something that simply feels to shallow to post in any sort of official capacity.

[Ashal]

Agree or disagree in any manner, just let me know.

 

I'm all ears on suggestions regarding this subject and am paying close attention to this thread's replies. 

[Guest]

Agree or disagree in any manner, just let me know.

 

I'm all ears on suggestions regarding this subject and am paying close attention to this thread's replies. 

 

Not too much to agree or disagree.

 

Normal bargain: I do a service, I offer it, somebody can get it and pay me.

Lite bargain: I do a service, and I give it for free, but please, help me with the costs (with maybe a little extra, until we reach a better goal) -> read it as LL Patreon support

No bargain: I do this, it is free --> Many mods are like that

 

Fraud: I do this (and it is not working or it is just a promise), and I want payments --> This should be banned (saw only a couple of cases.)

Heavy bargain: I do this, it is a demo, if you want the full one, you have to pay. --> Legitimate, but has to be clearly marked as "behind pay wall".

[shidoni]

 

Agree or disagree in any manner, just let me know.

 

I'm all ears on suggestions regarding this subject and am paying close attention to this thread's replies. 

 

Not too much to agree or disagree.

 

Normal bargain: I do a service, I offer it, somebody can get it and pay me.

Lite bargain: I do a service, and I give it for free, but please, help me with the costs (with maybe a little extra, until we reach a better goal) -> read it as LL Patreon support

No bargain: I do this, it is free --> Many mods are like that

 

Fraud: I do this (and it is not working or it is just a promise), and I want payments --> This should be banned (saw only a couple of cases.)

Heavy bargain: I do this, it is a demo, if you want the full one, you have to pay. --> Legitimate, but has to be clearly marked as "behind pay wall".

 

This is one heavy as lead subject, an't it?

I suggest to solidify LL's stance on earning funds and content creators earning funds.

The current state of LL's financial wellbeing is unknown to me, but i do hope it is more than sufficient to keep maintaining/improving.

 

I personally don't mind if a content creator says "hey, if you want to ... you can always help me by supporting my patreon.", but if the creator creates some sort of paywall-bargain between the content and the user ... such as a pay-2-play, he/she would just grind my gears. For a mod is technically just an "adjustment/change/addition" of already payed assets/engine of a gamecopy, we are not talking about official dlc's for which payment was required. (like the oblivion horse armor the bastards thought i forgot about that little travesty !)

The practice of "demo's" for pay-to-play mods is in my personal view something to be shunned and be disgusted about.

 

So far goes my opinion 

[Spyder Arachnid]

Eh, this is a really touchy subject honestly.

 

On one hand, donations I see are fine. If you want a Patreon for people to donate to you for the work you do, all good. Go for it, more power to you, etc etc.

 

But on the other hand, I dislike pay-walls. In all the years I've been on LL, it has always been a "Forever Free" mod site. We never have to pay for stuff here and if we choose to donate, we can do so, but we aren't forced to do it. But now it seems a lot of authors are going against that whole ideal and adding pay-walls to their mods for updates. Specifically I've noticed this in the Sims section where the adult mods are now behind pay-walls on Patreon if you want updated/fixed versions. Otherwise you can deal with old buggy versions for free.

 

This is what bothers me honestly. This site has always been about free content and now some mods are requiring payments to get them. If people want to lock their content behind a pay-wall, then take it somewhere else. You can post a link to your site with your mod, but don't make a download page here with some broken version of your mod and then tell people that if they want a better working version, they have to pay you money for it. That kind of stuff just doesn't belong here.

[shidoni]

Eh, this is a really touchy subject honestly.

 

On one hand, donations I see are fine. If you want a Patreon for people to donate to you for the work you do, all good. Go for it, more power to you, etc etc.

 

But on the other hand, I dislike pay-walls. In all the years I've been on LL, it has always been a "Forever Free" mod site. We never have to pay for stuff here and if we choose to donate, we can do so, but we aren't forced to do it. But now it seems a lot of authors are going against that whole ideal and adding pay-walls to their mods for updates. Specifically I've noticed this in the Sims section where the adult mods are now behind pay-walls on Patreon if you want updated/fixed versions. Otherwise you can deal with old buggy versions for free.

 

This is what bothers me honestly. This site has always been about free content and now some mods are requiring payments to get them. If people want to lock their content behind a pay-wall, then take it somewhere else. You can post a link to your site with your mod, but don't make a download page here with some broken version of your mod and then tell people that if they want a better working version, they have to pay you money for it. That kind of stuff just doesn't belong here.

You can say we are of one heart. But in the end, the decision lies with the admins and the staff. They are closest to LL's core than we are, and have more perspective and understanding of all playing factors.

We can only give our opinion on the given data and factors provided, although i'm sure we're merely looking at the top of an iceberg.

"He who does not know, should not judge." and "If the solution ends up in failure, always return to the very beginning." make for excellent quotation.

[Savannah]

Eh, this is a really touchy subject honestly.

 

On one hand, donations I see are fine. If you want a Patreon for people to donate to you for the work you do, all good. Go for it, more power to you, etc etc.

 

But on the other hand, I dislike pay-walls. In all the years I've been on LL, it has always been a "Forever Free" mod site. We never have to pay for stuff here and if we choose to donate, we can do so, but we aren't forced to do it. But now it seems a lot of authors are going against that whole ideal and adding pay-walls to their mods for updates. Specifically I've noticed this in the Sims section where the adult mods are now behind pay-walls on Patreon if you want updated/fixed versions. Otherwise you can deal with old buggy versions for free.

 

This is what bothers me honestly. This site has always been about free content and now some mods are requiring payments to get them. If people want to lock their content behind a pay-wall, then take it somewhere else. You can post a link to your site with your mod, but don't make a download page here with some broken version of your mod and then tell people that if they want a better working version, they have to pay you money for it. That kind of stuff just doesn't belong here.

I agree with this totally.

[27X]

I'm personally fine with paying for certain things, but as a prolific content creator myself in other venues, I have a distinct problem with paywall and pay to play because of this:

 

Quality.

 

If you want money from me for the general use of quality stuff (0SA, SL, SOS)  as a "network of trusted and solid content" great. No problem. Done deal.

 

 

 

How about money for an individual project?

 

Your shit better work flawlessly, on demand, all the time, and cover every patch, every update, every Steam fart and burp, just like the people who make a living have to do.

 

But that's an impossible sliding goalpost, how can I as a modder expect to be prepared for every contingency, I'm one guy making naughty stuff on the internets, and I have a freaking day job, wtf?!

 

 

I don't care, because that's now literally your job. If I pay for a _______, I expect it to measure up to the process of me paying you to make it.

 

 

 

Are you shitting me? Have you seen the All In One Pussy thread? It's fifteen thank yous and seven hundred "I can't get this to work" posts, you're insane.

 

I'm paying you for a reason and that reason isn't "lol I dunno, reinstall Skyrim"

 

This is the kinda stuff I have to deal with daily, and someone whom is paying me dollars for stuff has every right to expect it to work within the bounds of common sense and sanity. I don't think many of the people throwing out stuff here have actually considered any of that, and we haven't even gotten to expectations of quality.

 

As an example:

 

I would pay for BodySlide. It works, it works well, it's maintained, it's updated to consistently work under shifting conditions.

 

I would not pay a dime for UUNP, even though it's the defacto UNP body. Too many shortcuts on weighting, and a straight up bad mesh. (Butt spike, magic hands, Butt shelf, left side daedric hip gap)

 

Both are maintained by the same person.

 

 

Conundrum.

 

Conundrum #2 is as of the above, Bring the Noise started UUNP, Cell maintains it; where and whom do I pay? Do I pay belisario or plexus for SOS?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[afa]

I don't get it, is this about mods that have patreon tied to it being hosted here in LL or LL's own patreon policy.

 

At some point this seems to start delving into the whole paid mods fiasco, and I am not sure if LL should touch that at all, not from a should paid mod exist/not exist perspective, but from an extra work involved, managing, and contingencies perspective. Or simply put, if even Bethesda and Valve decided to drop it for now, it really isn't something LL should pick up...unless you really want to get into the kickbacks, trickle up/down, and pennies to dollar business.

[Kendo 2]

Agree or disagree in any manner, just let me know.

 

I'm all ears on suggestions regarding this subject and am paying close attention to this thread's replies. 

Members donating to LL don't get special access or content the others don't.  That is the difference between some of these Paetron pages and LL as a whole.

 

(this is what my unreasonable gut tells me)

Voluntary donations are one thing, members soliciting donations is whoring.  If members want to whore then they need a pimp.  If they want to use LL as their street corner then LL needs its cut, off the top.  If someone has a Paetron where they have exclusive or better content behind a paywall then they need to be charged to use the site.  50 bucks a week whether their Paetron makes money or not.  If they don't pay, their content gets hidden until they do.  If they don't like that arrangement then they can find another street corner to whore off of.  If they want to treat modding as a business, take them to school on it.

 

(what my brain tells me)

The people who are using LL as a venue to promote their Paetron mods with exclusive content need to stop.  Ask them nicely and if they refuse or drag their feet, hide their content until they comply.  If they want get mad and quit then let them.  They have no place to go but blogs or tumblr.  And if they leave they'll be leaving their base audience behind since no other game site will tolerate what is going on with these Paetron mod pages.  They can't go to Nexus and they can't go to SexySims.  That means they just go away and any new 'customers' they might be gaining here won't be had, since they won't have any exposure.  No need to be a dick about it but 'this is my site so this is how things are going to be' is perfectly reasonable.  You don't even really need to provide an explanation or a justification.

[Gameplayer]

I haven't run into these cases of mods behind paywall on LL, so I really feel in the dark about the topic.  Might be steppin on toes without knowing whats really goin down and maybe the thread needs some examples so that people here reading this can have a real idea of whats what.

 

Is it particular to a set of games that I'm not messin with?

What is goin on?

 

Also don't really care for the comments made by people that don't provide content about people getting donations.

That's bull cause if those people ever made a DLC sized mod they would have a different perspective and most comments made by authors are also people that did little more than make a house mod that barely works and mostly breaks people's games.

Speaking from having read through and did back ground checks on people posting in threads like this one on a broad range across the years.

Its simply this, if you have never invested yourself into the community its a bit off putting for members who are users to blanket statement the entire subject.

[Guest]

Is it particular to a set of games that I'm not messin with?

 

Some of these "paywalls" are for the adult gaming section.

There are many (usually games built with UE4 or REG), and some (I know only one) in the Sims section.

 

For Skyrim and Fallout there is no trace of paywalls right now.

[Kendo 2]

The two instances I'm aware involve Sims modding.

 

One mod for Sims3 gets regular updates and new content for the 'donor version' while the free version is ignored.  Another mod for Sims4 has two versions; the good one with exclusive content for donors and then the regular version for everyone else.  No matter how it's sliced they have content behind paywalls and are using LL to advertise their mods.

 

Not aware of anything like this happening for a Bethesda game mod but I don't follow Bethesda modding anymore.

[Gameplayer]

Thanks for saying.

 

Well here's the thing, LL is a donations site for content.

Not my site so its up to the admin to decide if these guys can bait people like that into what ever the content is.

If Kendo2 thinks what they are doing is wrong well I don't have any reason to think his thoughts are off on this.

 

Still feel in the dark though.

[Kimy]

My opinion: Asking for donations is always fine as long as they are COMPLETELY voluntary and donors do not get any advantage whatsoever over non-donors. In particular, making a "donor's version" of a mod that gets handed over only after coughing up cash needs to be banned. It's really just a paywall in disguise.

[Kendo 2]

I don't think they need to be slammed but they should be compelled to comply.  Do to them what they do to others.

 

They say, "No one is forcing you to donate.  If you don't want to then you won't get better content."

LL says, "No one is forcing you to participate at LL.  If you choose to do so, then you can't charge for content."

 

Give them the same Devil's choice they give users of their mods.  What's good for the goose, etc.  And since this fiasco is about 'the money' and not modding, hit them where they live.  If they want access to LL and the membership they need to pay just like they want people to pay for their mods.  If they are living by the credo 'nothing is free' then LL as a venue isn't free either.  If that were put on them they'd stop with the bullshit.

[Anisei]

My opinion: Asking for donations is always fine as long as they are COMPLETELY voluntary and donors do not get any advantage whatsoever over non-donors. In particular, making a "donor's version" of a mod that gets handed over only after coughing up cash needs to be banned. It's really just a paywall in disguise.

 

I fully agree with this, at least when it comes to mods for Skyrim and Bethesda games

 

Paywalls in my opinion can't really bring such a huge popularity to the mod, so I don't think many Skyrim modders would care about it much, we saw what happened to Bethesda's "paid modding" initiation

[Gameplayer]

I don't think they need to be slammed but they should be compelled to comply.  Do to them what they do to others.

 

They say, "No one is forcing you to donate.  If you don't want to then you won't get better content."

LL says, "No one is forcing you to participate at LL.  If you choose to do so, then you can't charge for content."

 

Give them the same Devil's choice they give users of their mods.  What's good for the goose, etc.  And since this fiasco is about 'the money' and not modding, hit them where they live.  If they want access to LL and the membership they need to pay just like they want people to pay for their mods.  If they are living by the credo 'nothing is free' then LL as a venue isn't free either.  If that were put on them they'd stop with the bullshit.

 

This, if its an actual revenue stream of a sold product this.

 

Cough 75% of sales to LL cough.

 

[afa]

I wouldn't draw a direct comparison to the beth/valve plan yet. LL, as much as I enjoyed my time here, isn't comparable in size and scope to essentially an officially sanctioned outlet. Not to mention the type of content that usually finds its way here, it is probably best to keep a low profile.

 

Also from the looks of things this also doesn't carry the modder to modder vs modder to user separation that fractions of TES seems to want to head toward.

[Vaelorian]

Far as I'm concerned, mods should always be free, with the option of asking for donations.

Any other stance brings us closer to the paid modding idea.

 

Delayed releases for non-payers are bad. Exclusive content and features for payers is terrible. Pop-ups inside the game are worse than terrible.

 

So let's steer clear of the whole "paid modding" idea, and not allow any kind of "patreon exclusives" here, shall we?

[pinky6225]

 

The thorny issues are:

1. How to enforce those policies?

2. What happens when someone uses LL as an incubator for pay-to-play?  A mod can start development here by meeting every LL policy but then switch to pay-to-play (real or de facto) behind Patreon once it has picked up enough patrons from here.

Out of curiosity is this a "the principle" thing or are we actually talking about a reasonable amount of money? since the answer to that would greatly affect the answer to question 1 and 2

 

[Guest Yourskyrim]

Mods should be free, always. We never had to pay for it and we will never pay for it.

Donations are another story, because that is more like "I like your content, I hope you keep modding.

So I gladly give you some money to help the project." And that is fine.

 

And Bethesda does not lose any money, they earned all the money with the base games.
You still need the game to let the mods work. Maybe EA loses money with the Sims, but yeah: their games are mostly shitty.

(Exept for Alice Madness Returns, that game is awesome)

 

However: I refuse to pay anything, and I think 27X is right.
If you pay for something, it better be perfect. 

And we all know that is never going to happen.