Devious Training

[xtremeGoose]

21 hours ago, Chwbccah said:

So, I tried to uninstall/disable the mod in order to figure out what was causing CTDs, and now my character's skin is blue and won't change unless I reactivate the mod. Any help?

I'm guessing this is a problem with SlaveTats and Devious Training. Try either keeping the Devious Training assets and disabling the ESP, or going into the SlaveTats MCM and removing any Devious Training tat. Hopefully this helps.

[skyrimfet]

4 hours ago, xtremeGoose said:

I'm guessing this is a problem with SlaveTats and Devious Training. Try either keeping the Devious Training assets and disabling the ESP, or going into the SlaveTats MCM and removing any Devious Training tat. Hopefully this helps.

should help - before final save visit slaveTats and check tat's
oh wait, DT and CTD?

eee?

[Lupine00]

Is it just me, but does the boots debuff affect lock-picking in the DEV version?

 

It seems a bit odd.

 

 

Taking damage from the boots is fine, but why no staggers? Should get a stagger for each damage hit, maybe more often?

 

 

Also, boots would be much more interesting if when you first start training, you can only walk a short distance before you fall and have to crawl.

 

Each time you stand from crawl it could burn a huge chunk of stamina, and if you don't have enough it just burns it but you can't stand up again and have to keep crawling until you have enough stamina to get up again. And of course, stamina regen should be debuffed too, during that phase of training.

 

Something like that?

[skyrimfet]

3 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

Is it just me, but does the boots debuff affect lock-picking in the DEV version?

 

It seems a bit odd.

if it is true - my fault , yes - odd

[Lupine00]

I'm quite certain it does debuff pick locks - I've seen it rising back up as I train boots.

 

Boots impact all "thief" skill: sneak, pick locks, pick pocket.

 

I can rationalise pick pocket as it's also sneak based, and sneak needs feet ... but locks don't walk away from you during the picking process.

 

 

Again. I like the damage effect for boots, but adding a stagger would bring more immersion ... and the crawling ... keeping falling and having to crawl ... well, you've seen those boots ... they're not made for rough terrain.

[Lupine00]

My DEV version writes to the console pretty much non-stop if console write enabled.

Constant processing from DTII ... will this be reduced in final version? Could there be an option to running updates less frequently?

[skyrimfet]

27 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

My DEV version writes to the console pretty much non-stop if console write enabled.

Constant processing from DTII ... will this be reduced in final version? Could there be an option to running updates less frequently?

im almost sure that you can disable console output, check in mcm please

[Lupine00]

19 hours ago, skyrimfet said:

im almost sure that you can disable console output, check in mcm please

I does, and I did disable it.

 

My concern was the sheer amount of non-stop calls being made by the mod, more than once a second continually.

[skyrimfet]

9 minutes ago, Lupine00 said:

I does, and I did disable it.

 

My concern was the sheer amount of non-stop calls being made by the mod, more than once a second continually.

i need to check it - i think that DT is runing every 5s or 10s - sometimes more time during events.
can you send me log files, or something to ilustrate problem? i'm going to finish current stage of my another mod BEing a cow and focus only on DT to turn dev to "official"

[Lupine00]

Here's a log file (attached).

 

It doesn't really show what I was seeing in the console.

 

Console output looked error free, there was just a lot of it.

 

This shows something else going wrong. Actually, I think the stack dumps might start at the point I turned console output off.

 

I've seen more than one mod where it breaks when you turn the debug prints off.

 

Papyrus.1.log

 

Addition: I've noticed that the Applying DTMEffects message sometimes appears over and over on the top left, and other times, does not. I'm guessing that when it starts appearing a lot, is when it's potentially writing a lot to the console (if enabled).

 

It seems, at those times it is running around every 5s or 10s, like you say, but due to script throttling, it takes that long to see the messages, so they appear to scroll continuously.

 

I think in those cases where the PC puts on devious items, or removes them, it may get backlogged.

Papyrus.0.log

[Rogwar002]

On 8.5.2018 at 4:34 PM, Lupine00 said:

I can rationalise pick pocket as it's also sneak based, and sneak needs feet ... but locks don't walk away from you during the picking process.

sure?

On 8.5.2018 at 5:05 PM, skyrimfet said:

im almost sure that you can disable console output, check in mcm please

nope. hardcoded log2 entries. I think I deactivated them in the dtmactor script in 5 or 6 functions.

6 hours ago, skyrimfet said:

i need to check it - i think that DT is runing every 5s or 10s - sometimes more time during events.

5s for mouth and eye

RegisterForSingleUpdate(5.0)

and 10s for the rest

RegisterForSingleUpdate(10.0)

6 hours ago, skyrimfet said:

or something to ilustrate problem

Spoiler

This is in dtmactor

 

function processActor(int Slot, String item = "", float value = -1.0, float value2 = -1.0)

	DTTools.log2("ProcessActor Slot:",Slot)		;hardcoded Console output
	DTTools.log2("ProcessActor Item:",item)		;hardcoded Console output

 

function updateAnal(int Slot, int rank)
DTTools.log2("Add anal hole",rank)			;hardcoded console output
		DTTools.log2("Add anal hole",Slot)	;hardcoded console output

function updateVaginal(int Slot, int rank)
		DTTools.log2("Add vag hole",rank)		;hardcoded console output
		DTTools.log2("Add vag hole",Slot)		;hardcoded console output

This is the very anoying setting in dtmmain

Event OnInit()


	;init
	DTConfig.modEnabled = true
	DTConfig.showConsoleOutput = true	;with toggle in MCM
	DTConfig.showTraceOutput = true		;hardcoded and most of it in log2; therefore console output
	DTConfig.lastVersion = 0
	DTUpdate.Update(getVersion())	
	Utility.wait(5.0)
	startMod()

EndEvent

 

 

[Lupine00]

Been playing the dev build for a while now, enough to give some feedback.

 

1) So much better than old version.

 

2) Stability and performance are still a concern ... still my major concern.

I know it's a dev version, but in some cases it's spamming stack dumps as fast as it can.

This is not good, unless you want to burn your savegame and throw it in the trash.

 

3) Corset really needs a drop down like boots so any non-DD item in body, corset, harness, or bra slot can be flagged as acting as a DD corset.

Really. For me this is pretty much a make or break issue.

 

4) It would add a lot of flexibility to have a drop down for each item-group to pick a "training limit", so you can set an item's max training level.

This would allow the player to have "realistic" play, where they can never train away the debuffs, only train them to a minimal level...

Or customise on an item by item level...

For example, maybe I like the DD idea of "boots make helpless" and so I never want boots to be able to progress at all, but everything else is fine.

Or maybe I just find the blindfold thing too beneficial...

Let the player choose this.

It adds loads more flexibility and personalisation to the mod ... I'd even prefer it to having the training speed options, though both would be best.

 

5) I agree with others that corset training gives you a triangle body, not an hourglass or pipe-stem shape (and both kinds of corset are highly distinctive in look).

Also, there's no attempt at supporting the classic "S-line" (side profile) that was considered the most harmful of all corset designs.

I think there's enough bones in the spine to at least take a shot at it. You'd need to add rotations.

 

6) This mod is great as a novelty, and nice for immersion with a slavery mod, like SD+ or Devious Followers,

and with the additions (3) and (4) above, I personally would probably want to use it a lot, but ...

 

It doesn't have a killer feature that makes it a must have for lots of people.

 

Unlike MME - which it has many parallels with - it lacks an internal "game" or battle.

The training is an entirely passive process, free from decisions. You can't opt to resist or accept it, it just happens.

With MME, you are in a race against time to play skyrim before you are utterly crippled by giant breasts.

You have to weigh every decision. Milk, don't milk? If I milk, I can get rid of the debuff, but it will mean bigger breasts down the track.

The mod needs some mechanics where the player has choices and consequences, as it is, it's just something happening in the background, adding a little visual touch here or there, or a (strong) buff or debuff.

It adds something, but a lot of people might consider it a lot of risk to their game for not a huge payback.

 

I reallly like the strong debuffs, but still wish for more immersive effects, like staggers, falling over, crawling, from boots, collapse into bleedout from corset/harness, consequences from increased breast size, a better weight gain/loss model, and so on.

 

But those things are nice luxuries, most important is stability and performance.

 

Great work so far. Can't wait to see the future.

[Lupine00]

One puzzle. I have feet trained to lover level, and the debuff when I remove my boots says my feet are devastated, but I don't get a devastated foot model.

Should I?

 

Why don't I? Is it my UUNP Special body?

Something I didn't install?

A fault in the DTII install?

[Rogwar002]

No. it is deactivated in the DEV version. Skyrimfet explained a few posts before, there is a problem with the feet. In his Mayhem addon the feet are not implemented yet.

[darkevilhum]

On 5/10/2018 at 10:44 AM, Lupine00 said:

Been playing the dev build for a while now, enough to give some feedback.

 

1) So much better than old version.

 

2) Stability and performance are still a concern ... still my major concern.

I know it's a dev version, but in some cases it's spamming stack dumps as fast as it can.

This is not good, unless you want to burn your savegame and throw it in the trash.

 

3) Corset really needs a drop down like boots so any non-DD item in body, corset, harness, or bra slot can be flagged as acting as a DD corset.

Really. For me this is pretty much a make or break issue.

 

4) It would add a lot of flexibility to have a drop down for each item-group to pick a "training limit", so you can set an item's max training level.

This would allow the player to have "realistic" play, where they can never train away the debuffs, only train them to a minimal level...

Or customise on an item by item level...

For example, maybe I like the DD idea of "boots make helpless" and so I never want boots to be able to progress at all, but everything else is fine.

Or maybe I just find the blindfold thing too beneficial...

Let the player choose this.

It adds loads more flexibility and personalisation to the mod ... I'd even prefer it to having the training speed options, though both would be best.

 

5) I agree with others that corset training gives you a triangle body, not an hourglass or pipe-stem shape (and both kinds of corset are highly distinctive in look).

Also, there's no attempt at supporting the classic "S-line" (side profile) that was considered the most harmful of all corset designs.

I think there's enough bones in the spine to at least take a shot at it. You'd need to add rotations.

 

6) This mod is great as a novelty, and nice for immersion with a slavery mod, like SD+ or Devious Followers,

and with the additions (3) and (4) above, I personally would probably want to use it a lot, but ...

 

It doesn't have a killer feature that makes it a must have for lots of people.

 

Unlike MME - which it has many parallels with - it lacks an internal "game" or battle.

The training is an entirely passive process, free from decisions. You can't opt to resist or accept it, it just happens.

With MME, you are in a race against time to play skyrim before you are utterly crippled by giant breasts.

You have to weigh every decision. Milk, don't milk? If I milk, I can get rid of the debuff, but it will mean bigger breasts down the track.

The mod needs some mechanics where the player has choices and consequences, as it is, it's just something happening in the background, adding a little visual touch here or there, or a (strong) buff or debuff.

It adds something, but a lot of people might consider it a lot of risk to their game for not a huge payback.

 

I reallly like the strong debuffs, but still wish for more immersive effects, like staggers, falling over, crawling, from boots, collapse into bleedout from corset/harness, consequences from increased breast size, a better weight gain/loss model, and so on.

 

But those things are nice luxuries, most important is stability and performance.

 

Great work so far. Can't wait to see the future.

 

I agree with everything there except your 6th point. You give constructive -unbiased- criticisms from your experience playing/testing. But point 6 is an opinion under the guise of testing feedback.

 

As I personally and many others enjoy the passive nature of this mod. You still 'make decisions' to allow your character to be in devices and situations that result in those devices. This then leads to the effects produced by this mod, which adds immersion (arguably lacking in many mods).

 

It is essentially an additional layer of immersion added ontop of all mods that incorporate devices, as such it derives it's weight from the mods you choose to compliment it with, it doesn't need any more depth than that in my -opinion- (in regards to the player actively doing things, more effects and consequences? hellyeah!), contrary to yours.

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

I agree with everything there except your 6th point. You give constructive -unbiased- criticisms from your experience playing/testing. But point 6 is an opinion under the guise of testing feedback.

It's not disguised. It's a given that the entire response is my opinion. All of it. I don't think feedback has to be limited to pure fact, feedback is feedback.

Some might completely disagree with points 1 to 5, they're just opinions too, and the things I think important may not matter to others.

 

When I wrapped up the post in point (6), I wanted to go deeper than superficial observations. I wanted to talk about where it pushes against the boundaries of what it is. Boundaries are places worth paying attention to. It was an observation, not a complaint. Potentially having a niche audience is not the biggest problem a mod could have, which is why I put it down as the last point, a kind of conclusion that looks a little deeper than the mechanics that are there and wonders what could be done to elevate this mod to great and must-have, rather than nice and interesting-to-try but probably optional.

 

While I like what it does, I will always be weighing that against the possible risks of another mod messing with bones and morphs. Conflicts in that area are the most common cause that I personally have for abandoned games. And you have to weight its script load against what it does, and I'll be considering the amount to which it's relevant in a long game - one that lasts weeks or months.

 

I think others will be doing that too, and each will draw their own conclusion based on their own preferences.

 

That's why reliability matters, but it's always a trade of reliability vs desirability. SD+ has been a somewhat buggy mod through most of its life, but it has high desirability. The same for PoP and SS.

 

While mods like DCL and SLSO are in most of my builds, the current release of DTII got dumped almost immediately due to bugs and lack of support for many items. That's a problem that's being fixed, but I remain in two minds about whether DTII can become a must-have, because once you're trained, you're trained, and that's it. The idea that you'll be debuffed for not wearing DD items after that is interesting, but maybe not a big enough gameplay feature to justify the risks of adding a mod that might (possibly) be the one that ends up wrecking the savegame.

 

You can say most of this of just many mods, so it's not particularly contentious. Most mods are not in the must-have category. Some people hate DCL, some consider SD+ a waste of time, or cannot even figure out why Devious Equip might be used, it's ... a matter of opinion.

 

Some mods, like MME or Slaverun totally change your game; they and put themselves front and centre of your game play. Not everyone wants that, and not everyone has to like them, but they certainly aren't irrelevant if you have them installed. OTOH, a mod like SL Adventures feels more like an advanced tweak-pack for DCL (even though it isn't) and doesn't make a big difference if you already have DCL. I like SL Adv, but I'm of two minds whether fixing some minor annoyances and turbo-charging train-run rapes justifies the possible issues (and it has some issues with followers for a start).

 

Not everyone likes DD items, and DTII is already limited to the audience of people who like the hardcore aspects of that. I think it's such an interesting idea that it deserves to be popular, but to do that, it needs to be a relevant mod that all of that potential audience will see a need for. That's my opinion.

 

What struck me about DTII is that if you happen not to get put in devices much, it has a very limited impact. However, if you do as I did, and get stuck in devices for twenty+ game-days at a stretch (over forty at this point), you hit the buffers on it, and you can't go back. After that you're pretty much stuck in certain devices ever after, even if you are free and have keys.

 

It's interesting; definitely creates a challenge; but you hit that static state and that's it. OK, you can set decay to always, but that takes away some immersion. The mod is changing your game, yes, but very quietly (apart from DTMEffects Applied scrolling past every few seconds, which needs to stop).

 

 

One little thing that could make it more of a "game" is if arousal plays a bigger role in training and buff/debuff consequences.

 

High arousal => faster training, low arousal => slower. As the default for untrained items is to lower arousal, it's not necessarily easy to get the faster training results, and for some players they are actively trying not to get them. If you play with training decay off, then it's a one way path, even at low levels.

 

If the buff/debuff setup was such that it was more symmetrical, so even at low training, you'd get some small debuffs for not being in devices, then it would really be important to keep out of devices, and keep arousal down. Mix with something like apropos, with the W&T limit dialed down, and you have to eat arousal increasing ingredients to remove W&T, and you get some interesting gameplay synergy there. Don't like those things? Make the debuff/buff curves and start-end points configurable and everyone can have it how they like.

 

Also, if arousal modified the buffs, and you needed to be aroused to get them, at least there would be a bit of back and forth. Might give you more incentives for wearing chastity devices with plugs.

 

I'm not sure those tweaks would propel DTII to greatness, but for me it's already a mod I like. If (1) and (2) get some love, it will likely be in my games in the future. You also have to be careful adding complicated formula configurations that it doesn't become confusing and put new users off with its complexity. If those things are set up with good defaults and tucked away on an advanced page, it could work, but basing the entire MCM around them would be a grave mistake.

 

Maybe the thing that might make DTII special is clever ideas for options and customisation that create a huge variety of outcomes and mechanics. It's not quite there on that yet, but if the ability to modify training-limit by item, and to modify the buff and debuff curves  and start/end points for with and without devices, it might create a space for itself as the go to mod to manage your DD item buffs/debuffs. But it would require careful thought about the UI presentation. Take mini needs as an example. iNeed and RND have way more support right now, but mini needs is far and away the best needs mod for a DD flavoured game, because you can make it do what you want.

 

Another thing that would propel DTII to greater popularity is a quest mod, probably about pony training, that provides a fun DD slavery quest, and teaches players how to get the most out of DTII and how they can use it to change their game.

 

I've noticed since my previous post, that if you wear a hobble dress, the fully-trained waistline looks better, and more curved. I guess it's always going to matter what you're wearing.

 

Also, I have weight loss from orgasm turned off, but still losing weight. The weight options really need some tooltips so we have a clue how they work.

[Lupine00]

9 hours ago, darkevilhum said:

As I personally and many others enjoy the passive nature of this mod

If we're going to point out egregious rhetorical tricks...

This would read better without dragging in a silent community, and removing "and many others".

[Lupine00]

A little problem in the DEV version. Disabling Mayhem >> Activity Effects >> Body Weight Effects ... does not disable them.

 

Either that, or there are effects from a corset that aren't described, so it modifies body weight.

 

DTII DEV insists on setting my body weight to pretty much nothing.

 

Is there some work around for this? Does eating help? Does it require a needs mod?

 

 

Tentacle Parasite from DCL makes clanking noises.

[Lupine00]

Any ideas on how not to have a weight of almost zero would still be appreciated

 

 

On another topic, closely related...

 

With a collar, I had to set the scale to 0, or else I got a giant head.

 

With bone hierarchies, any scale you apply is applied to all of a bone's children; it's just the way the matrices are composed.

It requires an extra matrix multiply to avoid this, but actually, I think NI can support that, but I've never used NIOverride so I don't know if it exposes that capability. I think it might.

[Rogwar002]

On 11.5.2018 at 7:55 PM, Lupine00 said:

High arousal => faster training, low arousal => slower. As the default for untrained items is to lower arousal, it's not necessarily easy to get the faster training results, and for some players they are actively trying not to get them. If you play with training decay off, then it's a one way path, even at low levels.

Arousal should not have an influence on the training speed. Why should a body react with faster adaption of DD items with higher arousal? Reads really weird. I like your idea of having influence on arousal more. If your toon is well trained and wearing the corresponding item, arousal should go up. BUT keep in mind the SL Aroused is not a tool with much options. Giving my humble opinion: arousal effects with much details are a waste of time.

On 11.5.2018 at 7:55 PM, Lupine00 said:

It's interesting; definitely creates a challenge; but you hit that static state and that's it. OK, you can set decay to always, but that takes away some immersion. The mod is changing your game, yes, but very quietly (apart from DTMEffects Applied scrolling past every few seconds, which needs to stop).

It´s a developer version. There are really much rows of code giving feedback in the log and on the screen. Easy to change. I think Skyrimfet will not anoy us with his debug functions in a fully functional v3.

16 hours ago, Lupine00 said:

With a collar, I had to set the scale to 0, or else I got a giant head.

Mentioned this already a few posts ago. The change in the script I suggested has a flaw, but I think it is usable if Skyrimfet is williing. The flaw is the formula. Neck and head are not corresponding 1:1. I figured out in my gameplay neck 1.5 to head 1.3 is working pretty good (stilll not perfect: maxed slider will have a minor distortion, but up to now I was to lazy to change the script to 1.27 and test)

 

 

[Lupine00]

I'm sorry that my suggestion that adding some element that the player could exercise a little control over might add a little bit more gameplay depth doesn't seem appropriate to you. 

 

But first, if such an option were present, it would surely be an option, and you could disable it.

 

Second, the objection on grounds of realism strikes me as absurd. The entire mod is entirely fantastical and unrealistic. The idea that running steps can somehow contribute to your ability to wear a gag (even by the tiniest amount), or that you can learn to talk through one, just as an example. So, picking on something you don't like and implying it's on grounds of believability doesn't make a very strong argument.

 

 

Personally, I like the idea that being forced to experience one event that is unpleasant, combined with another that is pleasant, can condition your behaviour. This is the basis of many slave-training fantasy scenarios.

 

 

You ,may have misunderstood my objection to the mod's ever-present scrolling text. It's a canary. The deeper problems here are performance, also performance, and ... performance.

 

DTII hooks a large number of very frequent events, it also runs a periodic update that is very frequent, and on a par with mods that people consider to be unacceptable script hogs.

 

The frequency of update is unnecessary with all those event hooks firing all the time.

 

A few second of mis-timed collar effects isn't a problem, and in fact, can be self-defeating by introducing lag greater than the update interval.

(No don't blame my computer, I can assure you that's not the problem. I can give extra time to scripts and still hit 60 fps anywhere in the game. If I'm seeing script lag, I pity the poor player with an i5 and a $500 gfx card).

 

 

I've remarked in other forums on a persistant fixation of LL mod developers to write unnecessarily detailed simulations, that hook into events they don't really need, and use a naively simulationist approach in the mistaken belief that this is the true road to good game play. More often than not dozens of elaborate calculations result in behaviour that the player either can't see at all, or that often seems broken, unfair, or unbalanced. The extremely mediocre outcomes from SL Arousal Redux being a case in point (and it's not even a complex sim, just a bad one).

 

If you don't understand numerical simulation and maybe lack a basic grasp of limits, series and calculus, you are better off not trying to write an elaborate simulation. Almost all of these "simulations" are intrinsically unstable and produce disappointing results that quickly hit the buffers of one maximum or another.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say DTII makes this mistake, but ... perusal of the code suggests that it does do more work than it really needs to.

 

The reality is that rather than collecting all those statistics, if you simply trained at a fixed rate that varied depending on the item type, most players would never perceive the difference, because they're unaware of the underlying simulation in the first place. If you threw in a bit of randomness, you'd be hard put to distinguish it from the current results.

 

The events available to DTII simply aren't that helpful in determining training with many items. Sure, steps directly correlate to boots, and if you're really imaginative, hits might correlate to harness or corset, but after that things get really fuzzy. Add to which, boots impacting lock picking and so on.

 

And then you have something as major as body weight triggering off steps and orgasms. This failed to be workable in Diet Based Butt with actual input from food and sliders to tweak it. It was a classic unstable simulation that only ever made you 0 or 100% weight unless you constantly tweaked the settings and/or your diet. Maybe that was supposed to be the point, but I think the idea was supposed to be that if you're a slave and you can't get much food, you get thin, and if you're rich and fast travelling everywhere, you get fat. But instead of implementing that by simple rules, it implemented a fiddly simulation that was incapable of stability.

 

Back to DTII ... the actual delta calculations are pretty cheap and trivial, but the constant event handling adds script load for no obvious benefit to the player's experience. Where as incorporating input from things the player can actually control makes it a game, which is what Skyrim is supposed to be. But if you don't like that, well ... what do you want? A fully accurate bondage simulator? It sure ain't that, and I for one don't want it to be. Because the sim in DTII is essentially secret sauce, the player can't really feel how their actions relate to outcomes.

 

 

I simply want interesting mechanics that bring surprise and novelty to my game, and a semi-plausible back story to justify them. The rest all happens in your head.

 

I want immersive effects, like staggers, crawling ... the existing collar and corset effects are great ... love them ... just want to see them more often in the early stages.

 

 

Those are just my wants, what skyrimfet is his business, and he'll make what he wants. That's his prerogative for doing the work. If it gets the load and stability where it needs to be, and maybe lets me customise a few more things, I'll still be interested in using it. It would be nice if others are too.

 

 

As an aside, I recently de-equipped most of the bondage items from my heavily trained character to see if it could still function...

 

As long as you have some shoes and a corset (which you can hide) you can still get by. You can't sneak or pick locks very well, but all the other important skills are still intact.

 

Personally, I see that as a pretty good design choice. Maybe the pick locks debuff is a bit implausible/annoying, but maybe I really need my armcuffs and gloves to handle those picks? Hard to imagine, but I'll take it as a balance decision. From a game play perspective, that part of the setup really works.

[GoldenGoblin]

How can I change this value? The weight of the character is 1, but the mod bet is 0.5

[Lupine00]

The DEV version confuses Iron Nipple Clamps with an anal plug, and gives you anal plug training for wearing them.

DCL put them on but they might be regular DD4 items, I forgot to check.

 

Checked this, items were from DD4.

[Rogwar002]

Spoiler

On 14.5.2018 at 12:03 PM, Lupine00 said:

I'm sorry that my suggestion that adding some element that the player could exercise a little control over might add a little bit more gameplay depth doesn't seem appropriate to you. 

 

But first, if such an option were present, it would surely be an option, and you could disable it.

 

Second, the objection on grounds of realism strikes me as absurd. The entire mod is entirely fantastical and unrealistic. The idea that running steps can somehow contribute to your ability to wear a gag (even by the tiniest amount), or that you can learn to talk through one, just as an example. So, picking on something you don't like and implying it's on grounds of believability doesn't make a very strong argument.

 

 

Personally, I like the idea that being forced to experience one event that is unpleasant, combined with another that is pleasant, can condition your behaviour. This is the basis of many slave-training fantasy scenarios.

 

 

You ,may have misunderstood my objection to the mod's ever-present scrolling text. It's a canary. The deeper problems here are performance, also performance, and ... performance.

 

DTII hooks a large number of very frequent events, it also runs a periodic update that is very frequent, and on a par with mods that people consider to be unacceptable script hogs.

 

The frequency of update is unnecessary with all those event hooks firing all the time.

 

A few second of mis-timed collar effects isn't a problem, and in fact, can be self-defeating by introducing lag greater than the update interval.

(No don't blame my computer, I can assure you that's not the problem. I can give extra time to scripts and still hit 60 fps anywhere in the game. If I'm seeing script lag, I pity the poor player with an i5 and a $500 gfx card).

 

 

I've remarked in other forums on a persistant fixation of LL mod developers to write unnecessarily detailed simulations, that hook into events they don't really need, and use a naively simulationist approach in the mistaken belief that this is the true road to good game play. More often than not dozens of elaborate calculations result in behaviour that the player either can't see at all, or that often seems broken, unfair, or unbalanced. The extremely mediocre outcomes from SL Arousal Redux being a case in point (and it's not even a complex sim, just a bad one).

 

If you don't understand numerical simulation and maybe lack a basic grasp of limits, series and calculus, you are better off not trying to write an elaborate simulation. Almost all of these "simulations" are intrinsically unstable and produce disappointing results that quickly hit the buffers of one maximum or another.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say DTII makes this mistake, but ... perusal of the code suggests that it does do more work than it really needs to.

 

The reality is that rather than collecting all those statistics, if you simply trained at a fixed rate that varied depending on the item type, most players would never perceive the difference, because they're unaware of the underlying simulation in the first place. If you threw in a bit of randomness, you'd be hard put to distinguish it from the current results.

 

The events available to DTII simply aren't that helpful in determining training with many items. Sure, steps directly correlate to boots, and if you're really imaginative, hits might correlate to harness or corset, but after that things get really fuzzy. Add to which, boots impacting lock picking and so on.

 

And then you have something as major as body weight triggering off steps and orgasms. This failed to be workable in Diet Based Butt with actual input from food and sliders to tweak it. It was a classic unstable simulation that only ever made you 0 or 100% weight unless you constantly tweaked the settings and/or your diet. Maybe that was supposed to be the point, but I think the idea was supposed to be that if you're a slave and you can't get much food, you get thin, and if you're rich and fast travelling everywhere, you get fat. But instead of implementing that by simple rules, it implemented a fiddly simulation that was incapable of stability.

 

Back to DTII ... the actual delta calculations are pretty cheap and trivial, but the constant event handling adds script load for no obvious benefit to the player's experience. Where as incorporating input from things the player can actually control makes it a game, which is what Skyrim is supposed to be. But if you don't like that, well ... what do you want? A fully accurate bondage simulator? It sure ain't that, and I for one don't want it to be. Because the sim in DTII is essentially secret sauce, the player can't really feel how their actions relate to outcomes.

 

 

I simply want interesting mechanics that bring surprise and novelty to my game, and a semi-plausible back story to justify them. The rest all happens in your head.

 

I want immersive effects, like staggers, crawling ... the existing collar and corset effects are great ... love them ... just want to see them more often in the early stages.

 

 

Those are just my wants, what skyrimfet is his business, and he'll make what he wants. That's his prerogative for doing the work. If it gets the load and stability where it needs to be, and maybe lets me customise a few more things, I'll still be interested in using it. It would be nice if others are too.

 

 

As an aside, I recently de-equipped most of the bondage items from my heavily trained character to see if it could still function...

 

As long as you have some shoes and a corset (which you can hide) you can still get by. You can't sneak or pick locks very well, but all the other important skills are still intact.

 

Personally, I see that as a pretty good design choice. Maybe the pick locks debuff is a bit implausible/annoying, but maybe I really need my armcuffs and gloves to handle those picks? Hard to imagine, but I'll take it as a balance decision. From a game play perspective, that part of the setup really works.

 

In most of your written statements I agree. And of course it´s not the realism that is making the fun of this mod. What still strikes me is the idea of a visual change during gameplay. Some of the mod effects I like, others not. Me personnaly anoy the speedbuff effects in every way. I disabled the effects. All of them. Running in Every kind of high heel seems just not appropiate to me. My choice.

I think the idea of counting steps is just the point of having anything to calculate the changes on. I changed the scripts for my personal taste to 15s calcualtion period. Still it seems to much. Next step will be 30s update timer or even less. And currentley I have no serious trouble with scriptlag. But the thougt is: Don´t wake the sleeping dog.

In my head the restricting devices will do damage to your body. The damage is not gone, even if you are loving the items due to training and the corruption of mind. The choice of effects often seem a little overdone, but playable. I would like to say even fun to play.

To the arousal topic: I (and as usual this is my opinion and not cristism to any person having an another opinion) disagree with your arousal idea, because Arousal redux is as said by yourself a bad simulation. Having another simulation make decisions or dependencies to this bad simulation will make it bad, too. This is a flaw we have in every sex based mod, relying on SL Aroused redux or similar bad sims. Matter of fact. You can´t pretend to have a correct result calculatiing with the wrong figures. Thinking Pi is good enough to calcualte with 3 is giving the wrong result. It will give you a direction, but still it is kind of shitty and not as round as it should be...

Calculating with a shitty result in the next equation will not make things better... get the idea?

SLAR has only to expressions in the later game: 0 or 100. Everything between is not even existent. Please spare the discussion of having SLAR doing the trick with tweaks in 100 mods, to prevent SLAR boosting your arousal to 100 in seconds. Even vlkAF Sexlife can´t do the trick with its endless tweaking options. But still it is way better than SLAR. Again: My opinion.

We have to live with what we have unless someone has invented the "eierlegende Wollmilchsau" (jack in all trades) in regards of arousal.

 

A big yes: Perfomance is always an issue and I envy every player having still 60fps. In towns I always have the "make or buy" decision of mods. Currently 34fps on the Whiterun (Slaverun) steps. 45-59 outside. But far far far away from 60 everywhere. Playing with 2k-4k wallpapers is looking nice, but sometimes... I wish back the times of 14'' monitors ...  With the graphic card from today... and the screen resolution from today... and the diameter my living room TV has...a vicious circle...

I remember times having played "Last Ninja"...  Just "Last Ninja". In my imagination it is epic graphics, I remember every detail. The fights, the crawling, the climbing, the hiding...WHOAA!!!! EPIC... Brainpower....

Spoiler

 

regards

Rogwar

[AWHA]

On 5/14/2018 at 6:03 AM, Lupine00 said:

DTII hooks a large number of very frequent events, it also runs a periodic update that is very frequent, and on a par with mods that people consider to be unacceptable script hogs.

 

The frequency of update is unnecessary with all those event hooks firing all the time.

 

I've remarked in other forums on a persistant fixation of LL mod developers to write unnecessarily detailed simulations, that hook into events they don't really need, and use a naively simulationist approach in the mistaken belief that this is the true road to good game play. More often than not dozens of elaborate calculations result in behaviour that the player either can't see at all, or that often seems broken, unfair, or unbalanced. The extremely mediocre outcomes from SL Arousal Redux being a case in point (and it's not even a complex sim, just a bad one).

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say DTII makes this mistake, but ... perusal of the code suggests that it does do more work than it really needs to.

 

The reality is that rather than collecting all those statistics, if you simply trained at a fixed rate that varied depending on the item type, most players would never perceive the difference, because they're unaware of the underlying simulation in the first place. If you threw in a bit of randomness, you'd be hard put to distinguish it from the current results.

As a peasant with an i5 and a mid-tier GPU, I agree. Too many mods on LL use unnecessarily complicated calculations and frequent timers. The best part of this mod are the visual changes, and if the calculations for "training" can be made simpler, everybody wins.