Devious Attributes 2019-5-7

m.skynet · January 27, 2016

Looks absolutely fascinating.

I am trying to wrap my head around the numbers and functions, it seems a little complex or at the very least there should be a guideline of best practice on how to check and alter each variables.

If I am understanding it correctly at the moment there are essentially 3 base stats: Willpower, Pride, and Self-esteem with pride and willpower having some minor interplay, and then the calculated value of submissiveness from the three, and finally the obedience check against willpower.

It looks good, but if we start thinking of extreme case scenario where some stats are high while others are low, say what does it mean when Willpower and Pride is high but self-esteem is low? What does it mean when Self-esteem is high but yet somehow willpower and pride are middling? Are they all technically in service of submissiveness? But It seems like Willpower is placed at high importance with the obedience check.

It is good to provide enough tools and data for modders to play around with, but I think some sort of guidelines on how to manipulate these stats would be useful to not avoid awkward scenarios like some of the cases above. Or should it be simpler if the key aspects are the calculated submissiveness value and the true/false willpower check.

I wish I possess the knowledge to plot these out all against time, but it has been decade since I last touch differentials

Also it would be nice if it could expand to followers.

When I have bit more triggers, I will add a detailed guide on what changes should be expected in what cases.

Regarding submissiveness:

The idea behind is that is calculated from pride and self-esteem equally, but if willpower if higher than pride, then it is taken into account instead of pride. (theoretically, you can be less submissive either because you are too proud or because you are strong-headed)

So, in the extreme case pride=100% and self-esteem is 0% -> you will get about 50% submissiveness.

Regarding willpower checks. The idea is that for each saying "no" to a master there will be a price in willpower units - each saying "no" will substract from willpower until nothing is left. Thus potentially forcing a player to do all sorts of trade-off decisions like "should I agree to this little bit humiliating request, so I would have enough willpower to resist VERY humiliating requests in the near future?"

Regarding obedience : the idea is a stat that can be used by other mod developers to test against. It will decrease very slowly with time, and increase each time a player willingly agrees to a request or an order.

Other than that, there is no direct interplay between stats - pride, self-esteem and sometimes willpower are used to calculate submissiveness, and thats about it.

So:

Refuse command = gain pride, lose will

Degrading action = lose self esteem/pride

Is that right? Is it the command itself that costs will power or the punishment? I want to get it straight because now I want to make a mod that uses this

Also, is the submissiveness "progressive"? I guess 100% you do whatever someone asks you to, but is there any effect at 25% or 50%?

1) Pretty much thats the spirit. Also, I've added an ability to send information about player decision -> it will update stats accordingly. I've updated mod description, also with code snippets how it can be sent.

2) Devious Attributes does not add any effects, so far it only tracks stats. It is up to other modders to decide what to do with the value. The way I am thinking about it - it is a chance that you will even *have* the option to refuse. So at 85% submissiveness, only 15% chance that you will have a dialogue option to refuse an action

Another option, (a more immersive one in my opinion) is that at >= 25% submissiveness you no longer have an option to strongly refuse, at >= 50% you no longer have an option to even meekly refuse, at >= 75% submissiveness you no longer have an option to half-heartedly agree.

January 27, 2016

New version looks really good!

Two small bugs. (Maybe they are intentional, who knows). The reset stats debug option doesn't reset the fetish stats. Also, the "decision type" on the debug menu is out of order with the fetish attribute list elsewhere in the MCM. (Decision type 2 corresponds to the third fetish, type 3 corresponds to the second fetish).

Note that I didn't test on a clean save, maybe it won't be experienced for anyone else.

m.skynet · January 27, 2016

New version looks really good!

Two small bugs. (Maybe they are intentional, who knows). The reset stats debug option doesn't reset the fetish stats. Also, the "decision type" on the debug menu is out of order with the fetish attribute list elsewhere in the MCM. (Decision type 2 corresponds to the third fetish, type 3 corresponds to the second fetish).

Note that I didn't test on a clean save, maybe it won't be experienced for anyone else.

The new version doesnt require a new save, at least on my machine. (pun not intended )

About bugs - those definitely look like bugs, thanks for reporting. Will fix them for the next release

Jayleia · January 27, 2016

Willpower - regenerating stat that will be used to calculate whether the character can refuse slave master command. Each time master's command is accepted, willpower value will be lowered.
Pride - Will increase by winning combat, and will decrease by being defeated or by wearing openly a devious device/collar. Each time a slave character refuses master's request, will increase the pride as well.

Self-Esteem - Will increase slowly with time, with a constant rate. Will decrease for each humiliating act character does.

Submissiveness - Calculated value, that will be used to determine how obedient and submissive the character is. This is calculated from combination of Pride and Self-Esteem

Obedience - Signifies long-term conditioning to obey. Will decrease slowly with time, If it surpasses current Willpower value, the character Submissiveness will be considered as 100% and no longer will be able to struggle with bindings, or refuse commands/requests

Of course, I have some ideas of for some immersive and appropriate exceptions...

Using Master from CD as a hypothetical owner, and she's formally enslaved you, with your willing, and enthusiastic consent. Following her commands doesn't give you a willpower hit, if you're captured and used by others, you still take the WP hit.

You wear her collar (and belt) with pride, not only does it not drop from wearing that device, it actually increases from wearing it.

Acts you normally consider degrading, when others do them to you, actually increase your self-esteem when Master does it.

DISOBEYING Master gives you a willpower, pride and self-esteem hit, because you've disappointed your Master.

(except for things that are actually used as punishments, and not "sexy bondage fun")

Yuni · January 27, 2016

This mod sounds very kinky, I just wish I had things that affected submissiveness, humiliation and such that weren't based on Sanguine's debauchery. I love the concepts of tracking how much of a slut my character is, submissiveness, getting humiliated, becoming obedient, I adore that type of stat tracking.

HOWEVER...

Mods like Sanguine's Debauchery, that completely derail my adventure and completely center the spotlight around doing simple, scripted events with my Master make the normal content of the game unplayable for some time, if not permanently for that file. x3 I want to be humiliated and submissive, lose willpower and have it affect me negatively, without completely ending my adventure.

Is it possible to add debuffs for getting bad values in pride, self esteem, humiliation, willpower, etc, without the need to install a specific slavery mod? Lost willpower means bad magic regent, or something. Low pride increases shout cooldown... I'm weird. I like debuffs related to sex.

I also wonder what qualifies a player as a 'sex victim', is it an aggressive animation or something?

Wonderful concept so far, I look forward to seeing where you go with it.

Karma199696 · January 27, 2016

a few considerations...

Willpower - regenerating stat that will be used to calculate whether the character can refuse slave master command. Each time master's command is accepted, willpower value will be lowered. For example: Master : "kneel!" -> in order to refuse, you need to have enough willpower left. If you kneel, your willpower will have lower value for some time. In time, this value will regenerate until certain threshold. Also, this value will be used to determine if the character can struggle with restraints - like armbinder, or try to escape (e.g. try to pickpocket the master). Each time the character struggles with restraints, willpower will be lowered as well.

in this way, both if you obey and if you refuse, your willpower will decrease... i don't think it's fair... if you refuse you "spend" your willpower, that's OK, but if you accept the command should be just pride and self-esteem to suffer, not willpower... you made your choise, took the decision that was not the right moment to be defiant... your pride and self-esteem will however suffer from doing something humiliating but not your willpower (i think)

Self-Esteem - Will increase slowly with time, with a constant rate. Will decrease for each humiliating act character does. (Either through modding API or through wearing "degrading" devices such as pony boots.)

i don't think self-esteem would increase constantly while i'm enslaved, maybe naked, restrained and with everybody taking advantage of me... i think should increase automatically only while i'm free... otherwise i need to do something to make my self-esteem increase (such as being defiant, refuse commands, try to escape and so on...)

of course these are just my considerations, you may agree or not and since this is your mod (not mine since i can't mod at all) you can obviously do whatever you see fit i will keep thinking this mod is great and to follow it whatever you decide

January 27, 2016

This mod sounds very kinky, I just wish I had things that affected submissiveness, humiliation and such that weren't based on Sanguine's debauchery. I love the concepts of tracking how much of a slut my character is, submissiveness, getting humiliated, becoming obedient, I adore that type of stat tracking.

HOWEVER...

Mods like Sanguine's Debauchery, that completely derail my adventure and completely center the spotlight around doing simple, scripted events with my Master make the normal content of the game unplayable for some time, if not permanently for that file. x3 I want to be humiliated and submissive, lose willpower and have it affect me negatively, without completely ending my adventure.

Is it possible to add debuffs for getting bad values in pride, self esteem, humiliation, willpower, etc, without the need to install a specific slavery mod? Lost willpower means bad magic regent, or something. Low pride increases shout cooldown... I'm weird. I like debuffs related to sex.

I also wonder what qualifies a player as a 'sex victim', is it an aggressive animation or something?

Wonderful concept so far, I look forward to seeing where you go with it.

Debuffs due to different stats would probably be better off in a separate mod, since not everyone will want them and it seems pretty easy for other mods to read these values anyway.

m.skynet · January 27, 2016

Willpower - regenerating stat that will be used to calculate whether the character can refuse slave master command. Each time master's command is accepted, willpower value will be lowered.
Pride - Will increase by winning combat, and will decrease by being defeated or by wearing openly a devious device/collar. Each time a slave character refuses master's request, will increase the pride as well.

Self-Esteem - Will increase slowly with time, with a constant rate. Will decrease for each humiliating act character does.

Submissiveness - Calculated value, that will be used to determine how obedient and submissive the character is. This is calculated from combination of Pride and Self-Esteem

Obedience - Signifies long-term conditioning to obey. Will decrease slowly with time, If it surpasses current Willpower value, the character Submissiveness will be considered as 100% and no longer will be able to struggle with bindings, or refuse commands/requests

Of course, I have some ideas of for some immersive and appropriate exceptions...

Using Master from CD as a hypothetical owner, and she's formally enslaved you, with your willing, and enthusiastic consent. Following her commands doesn't give you a willpower hit, if you're captured and used by others, you still take the WP hit.

You wear her collar (and belt) with pride, not only does it not drop from wearing that device, it actually increases from wearing it.

Acts you normally consider degrading, when others do them to you, actually increase your self-esteem when Master does it.

DISOBEYING Master gives you a willpower, pride and self-esteem hit, because you've disappointed your Master.

(except for things that are actually used as punishments, and not "sexy bondage fun")

Hmm, so far my mod assumes unwilling enslavement. Thanks for giving me some food for thought - I will think how to incorporate consensual slavery into the system. Most likely I will make another venue to register player decisions, so in case of voluntary servitude, mods using Devious Attributes will be able to report the decision as "consensual". With different changes to the stats of course.

This mod sounds very kinky, I just wish I had things that affected submissiveness, humiliation and such that weren't based on Sanguine's debauchery. I love the concepts of tracking how much of a slut my character is, submissiveness, getting humiliated, becoming obedient, I adore that type of stat tracking.

HOWEVER...

Mods like Sanguine's Debauchery, that completely derail my adventure and completely center the spotlight around doing simple, scripted events with my Master make the normal content of the game unplayable for some time, if not permanently for that file. x3 I want to be humiliated and submissive, lose willpower and have it affect me negatively, without completely ending my adventure.

Is it possible to add debuffs for getting bad values in pride, self esteem, humiliation, willpower, etc, without the need to install a specific slavery mod? Lost willpower means bad magic regent, or something. Low pride increases shout cooldown... I'm weird. I like debuffs related to sex.

I also wonder what qualifies a player as a 'sex victim', is it an aggressive animation or something?

Wonderful concept so far, I look forward to seeing where you go with it.

* I am considering adding debuffs, but those are pretty low on my priorities list, right now I want to make scripts as robust as possible, before proceeding with integrations to other mods. If I will get to making them, most likely they will be optional, with menu options to turn the on/off - Cursed Loot style.

* Sanguine's Debauchery will be optional mod (soft dependency), Devious Attributes will work without it installed.

* Sex victim -> any Sexlab animation where player is tagged as "victim". I use it to detect rape events. This does not necessarily has to be aggressive animation, as far as I understand - it is possible for some mod to initiate aggressive animation without flagging player as "victim"

a few considerations...

Willpower - regenerating stat that will be used to calculate whether the character can refuse slave master command. Each time master's command is accepted, willpower value will be lowered. For example: Master : "kneel!" -> in order to refuse, you need to have enough willpower left. If you kneel, your willpower will have lower value for some time. In time, this value will regenerate until certain threshold. Also, this value will be used to determine if the character can struggle with restraints - like armbinder, or try to escape (e.g. try to pickpocket the master). Each time the character struggles with restraints, willpower will be lowered as well.

in this way, both if you obey and if you refuse, your willpower will decrease... i don't think it's fair... if you refuse you "spend" your willpower, that's OK, but if you accept the command should be just pride and self-esteem to suffer, not willpower... you made your choise, took the decision that was not the right moment to be defiant... your pride and self-esteem will however suffer from doing something humiliating but not your willpower (i think)

Self-Esteem - Will increase slowly with time, with a constant rate. Will decrease for each humiliating act character does. (Either through modding API or through wearing "degrading" devices such as pony boots.)

i don't think self-esteem would increase constantly while i'm enslaved, maybe naked, restrained and with everybody taking advantage of me... i think should increase automatically only while i'm free... otherwise i need to do something to make my self-esteem increase (such as being defiant, refuse commands, try to escape and so on...)

of course these are just my considerations, you may agree or not and since this is your mod (not mine since i can't mod at all) you can obviously do whatever you see fit i will keep thinking this mod is great and to follow it whatever you decide

Thanks for your feedback. One of the reasons I published my mod so early (as it is not finished by far), is to get feedback, and I am quite happy to get it.

Obviously, the stat changes need and *will* be tweaked, so:

1) Regarding willpower - you are right, and I think I already changed the behavior to something very similar you described. I will check and update description

2) I think I will rethink periodic self-esteem changes. What you say - it makes sense

xTrogdorx · January 27, 2016

Would be nice if it was standalone and functioned more like http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/70639/? , instead of the primary point being to influence whether or not you can struggle with your DD restraints. I would suggest making DD a soft dependency like the other mods; not everyone likes the script load associated with DD. Maybe have the mod influence some vanilla things, like combat stats or speech successes.

January 27, 2016

By the way, is it possibly this mod which is responsible for most of the NPCs in the Bannered Mare wearing zaz collars? It just started happening and I have no idea why.

Karma199696 · January 27, 2016

Thanks for your feedback. One of the reasons I published my mod so early (as it is not finished by far), is to get feedback, and I am quite happy to get it.
Obviously, the stat changes need and *will* be tweaked, so:

1) Regarding willpower - you are right, and I think I already changed the behavior to something very similar you described. I will check and update description

2) I think I will rethink periodic self-esteem changes. What you say - it makes sense

No, i thak you ! and all the other modders like you that create all these fantastic mods that i really love but that would never be able to do myself

suggestions and feedback are the least i can do to help you guys... well... it's also the only thing i can do ! LOL !

January 27, 2016

Wow I can't believe how much easier the send mod event functionality is than basically anything else I have ever done in the Creation Kit. Just copy pasting your template script into the papyrus fragment box works perfectly.

EDIT: If I want to design a "punishment" with extra penalty to self-esteem/pride, is there a way? Or is it currently limited to sending decision events?

bathoz · January 27, 2016

Hah, when I was reading through your post I thought "it feels a little like CoC prisoner."

Is it possible to tie some of that self-esteem/pride stuff to combat effectiveness? Or is that in the realm of other mods.

Also, maybe, in the short term, find a way to tie it into SexLabUtil for stat changes?

Also, also: so keen.

m.skynet · January 27, 2016

By the way, is it possibly this mod which is responsible for most of the NPCs in the Bannered Mare wearing zaz collars? It just started happening and I have no idea why.

I definitely don't do anything like this. I think I saw something like this in "Sexlab Sexual Fame"

Wow I can't believe how much easier the send mod event functionality is than basically anything else I have ever done in the Creation Kit. Just copy pasting your template script into the papyrus fragment box works perfectly.

EDIT: If I want to design a "punishment" with extra penalty to self-esteem/pride, is there a way? Or is it currently limited to sending decision events?

With the current scripts, extra penalty is not possible. I think it is a good idea - for the next version, I make changes in functionality to allow that.

m.skynet · January 27, 2016

Would be nice if it was standalone and functioned more like http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/70639/? , instead of the primary point being to influence whether or not you can struggle with your DD restraints. I would suggest making DD a soft dependency like the other mods; not everyone likes the script load associated with DD. Maybe have the mod influence some vanilla things, like combat stats or speech successes.

I have a bit different intent in my mind - I would like to create what is basically a "stats" system that will serve as a "tool" for other mods. Creating buffs/debuffs based on those stats is a valid idea, but as I said before - it is relatively low in my priorities list. For now I prefer to concentrate first on getting stats and their hooks right.

That said, when I will start writing integrations into other mods, I will take a look at existing dependencies, and consider making them "soft dependencies" if those mods allow that.

January 27, 2016

I love the Idea. At the moment does this mod do anything by itself or we need to wait for other mods to use this framework?

January 27, 2016

I love the Idea. At the moment does this mod do anything by itself or we need to wait for other mods to use this framework?

It will detect when you are a victim in a SL animation and adjust/track your stats accordingly. There are no effects but you can always limit your own actions or dialogue based on the stats

RJLbwb · January 28, 2016

Even if this just ends up keeping tract for rp, this mod is a good idea in my book.

*DeepBlueFrog* · January 28, 2016

Here is everything you need about mod event and storageUtil state variables from SD+:

https://github.com/SkyrimLL/SDPlus/wiki/For-Modders

Let me know if you need to to expose anything else.

Some capabilities are not fully documented yet and I am open to suggestions

Game Goblin · January 29, 2016

Now this... looks very, very interesting. I wait with baited breath to see what shakes out of this magic bag of awesomeness.

GreatCroco · January 29, 2016

Soft or Hard dependancy: you can't expect that the modders trust on your system just because you created it. Most of the times the modders are worried about future changes, incompatibility, Error that could reverberate on their mods, etc.

So most of the times OR they wait until the mod is 'Enough stable" for their tastes, OR they want to use Soft Dependancy, 'just to be safe' (remove a soft dependancy is easier than an Hard one)

This is a problem with the Skyrim modding community (and othermod communities) in general. Either modders include other libraries way too much, or way too little.

Ways to fix this:

1. Use a consistent version system, telling your users when they can expect breaking changes, and when they can expect the API to work like described in the documentation. This means: Semantic Versioning

2. While I don't like events in my (non-Skyrim) code. In Papyrus they are a must if you want to decouple things.

3. Open up your code! Put it on GitHub (or another Git provider), so everyone can contribute to it and you are not tasked with it alone. This mod has the potential to become an essential for most others out there, so let others contribute to it.

m.skynet · January 29, 2016

Soft or Hard dependancy: you can't expect that the modders trust on your system just because you created it. Most of the times the modders are worried about future changes, incompatibility, Error that could reverberate on their mods, etc.

So most of the times OR they wait until the mod is 'Enough stable" for their tastes, OR they want to use Soft Dependancy, 'just to be safe' (remove a soft dependancy is easier than an Hard one)

This is a problem with the Skyrim modding community (and othermod communities) in general. Either modders include other libraries way too much, or way too little.

Ways to fix this:

1. Use a consistent version system, telling your users when they can expect breaking changes, and when they can expect the API to work like described in the documentation. This means: Semantic Versioning

2. While I don't like events in my (non-Skyrim) code. In Papyrus they are a must if you want to decouple things.

3. Open up your code! Put it on GitHub (or another Git provider), so everyone can contribute to it and you are not tasked with it alone. This mod has the potential to become an essential for most others out there, so let others contribute to it.

1) Excellent idea about Github! -> from the next version and on, I am going to use Github for version control, issues, wiki etc.

2) Semantic versioning -> hadn't thought about it, but you have a good point here I think. I am going to use semantic versioning starting from the next version

Ekirts Ykcul · January 29, 2016

Hi there,

great work. Thank you very much.

If you, or other skilled modders, need more ideas for what could be implemented in your mod, here is mine.

Maybe there could be some different idle animations like a proud stance for high self esteem and so on.

I have no idea how all this coding works but maybe the RandomIdleAnimations from this mod have some scripts that could help or are similar to what would be needed here.

Thanks again for this mod i hope you will have fun developing it further.

m.skynet · January 29, 2016

I have uploaded a new version. It shouldn't require a fresh save - it didn't require on my machine, but if it does, I'd love to know about it.

Also, the mechanics are becoming a bit complicated, I am aware of this - I will be writing a detailed wiki in the GitHub repo.

Krazyone · January 29, 2016

You could maybe make simple integration into mods, using patches for simple tweaks. A good stepping stone, for getting the mod used straight away...

Possible patch ideas...

1. Sexlab aroused redux

Low self esteem = Players arousal reduces daily by 10%

High self esteem = 2% arousal added each day

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1421-sexlab-aroused-redux/

2. Sexlab aroused creatures

Low self esteem and high submissive = reduces animals sexual arousal upper level to 50% less, that is set in the MCM menu. For animals to sexually abuse the player, as they see you as easier sexual prey. Animals always prey on the weak...

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1146-sexlab-aroused-creatures-2016-01-20/

3. Skooma Whore Addicted ( addon for Skooma Whore )

Lower willpower = a small chance to snatch and drink drugs at level 1 addiction and onwards

0% willpower = Steal cash for drugs

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/2229-skooma-whore-addicted/

4. Weight Morphs ( you gain or lose weight from overeating )

Low willpower = Eat some food randomly, 4 times a day, from your inventory, to hell with the diet... you think, at low willpower...

100% willpower = 1% weight - loss daily, despite eating habits...

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/2362-weightmorphs/

5. Deviously Cursed Loot

100% submissive = 5% random chance to get collared after sleeping

50% submissive = 2% random chance to get collared after sleeping

0% willpower = 50% chance to get drugged when whoring yourself out, you just can't say no

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1216-deviously-cursed-loot/

6. Beeing female

Pride = Pride increases daily, when pregnant. Buff 10% better prices in shops

http://www.loverslab.com/files/file/1284-beeingfemale/

7. Realistic needs and disease

Very Hungry = 2% less self esteem per hour ( debuff = 5% slower at 0% self esteem )

Gluttony = 1% increase in self esteem per hour ( buff = 5% faster at 100% self esteem )

http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/26228/?

Characters expression... I don't know if you already have this, but facial expressions changing with moods...

Just some possible ideas...

Sign In

Devious Attributes 2019-5-7

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Guest

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

Create an account

Sign in

Recently Browsing 0 members

Important Information