Devious Devices - Equip (LE)

[jigwigigx]

I see the conflict still exists where if you choose to equip an ebonite restrictive set you get an 'ebony harness' instead of and as well as the corset.

Is this going to be fixed?

[Punga]

Update? Already? It's not even my birthday. 

Thanks for the update.

[Code Serpent]

Question; I noticed in the changelog it states that DDE is "Not tested with DDi/DDx 4.00". Does that mean the features off DDi 4.0 are not implemented in this mod (specifically the new keywords like zad_DeviousHeavyBondage), or are they implemented but just haven't been officially tested?

[Inte]

On ‎4‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:38 PM, IronDusk33 said:

Question; I noticed in the changelog it states that DDE is "Not tested with DDi/DDx 4.00". Does that mean the features off DDi 4.0 are not implemented in this mod (specifically the new keywords like zad_DeviousHeavyBondage), or are they implemented but just haven't been officially tested?

DDi 4 was not implemented in DDe.

DDi 4 has removed the ZAP keywords which makes it inconvenient for me to switch over to it.

 

[Punga]

I tried DD4, nothing there I cannot live without. 

[Slorm]

2 hours ago, Punga said:

I tried DD4, nothing there I cannot live without. 

I wasn't keen on the changes they'd made so stayed with DD3

[Code Serpent]

18 hours ago, Inte said:

DDi 4 was not implemented in DDe.

DDi 4 has removed the ZAP keywords which makes it inconvenient for me to switch over to it.

 

Genuinely curious here. How is it inconvenient? I'm fairly sure DDi has enough keywords to describe all of the restraints this mod adds.

[Inte]

8 hours ago, IronDusk33 said:

Genuinely curious here. How is it inconvenient? I'm fairly sure DDi has enough keywords to describe all of the restraints this mod adds.

It is inconvenient for mods like POP that do not have DDi as a dependency.

With DDi 3 POP could check if the player was wrist bound with one simple WornKeyword() call, now it is almost impossible for non DDi 4 dependent mods to check if the player is wearing an armbinder for example. 

POP also has a player activation limitation system based on restraints worn. DDi 4 has broken this system by removing the ZAP keywords. 

 

ZAP is the bridge between all bondage mods here on LL. This bridge has been burned in DDi 4. 

[Code Serpent]

23 minutes ago, Inte said:

It is inconvenient for mods like POP that do not have DDi as a dependency.

With DDi 3 POP could check if the player was wrist bound with one simple WornKeyword() call, now it is almost impossible for non DDi 4 dependent mods to check if the player is wearing an armbinder for example. 

POP also has a player activation limitation system based on restraints worn. DDi 4 has broken this system by removing the ZAP keywords.

Hmm, one workaround could be using a combination of GetWornForm and HasKeywordString. You would then have to make a few separate functions for each restraint. For example:

bool Function HasArmCuffs(Actor a)
	if(a.WornHasKeyword(zbfWornWrist))
		return true
	else
		Form Restraint = a.GetWornForm(0x20000000)
		return Restraint && Restraint.HasKeywordString("zad_DeviousArmCuffs")
	endIf
endFunction

I think there are about 15 DD restraints, so 15 of these functions would cover all of that, around 120 lines. If you want I could probably write up a utility script for you to copy.

[Inte]

I need this in CK conditionals (dialog, AI packages and so on) not scripting, therefore I need an actual keyword not a function.  

 

 

[Code Serpent]

3 minutes ago, Inte said:

I need this in CK conditionals (dialog, AI packages and so on) not scripting, therefore I need an actual keyword not a function. 

Right. I did notice that all of the devious restraints did have the SexLabNoStrip keyword, which I don't think is used all that often outside of restraints. So, you could use that to prompt an additional script check, which would set globalvariables you could use to handle the rest of the conditions. However, that's likely a lot of work, so I'll leave it up to you if you want to try that.

 

I'll see if I can do some tinkering on my end to get a light setup of Prison Overhaul working with DDI 4, probably with the events mostly restricted to the cell. Anyway, thanks for the quick responses.

[Inte]

I cannot differentiate between restraints with only one keyword (SexLabNoStrip).  

 

I know how it can be implemented, but a framework is supposed to simplify its use not complicate it.  

[Code Serpent]

I just spent an hour making a SkyProc patcher, which re-adds the appropriate Zaz Worn Keywords to Devious Devices. I'm not sure how familiar you are with SkyProc patches, so I included an .esp file that already has the DDi and DDx devices patched.

 

Please take a look at it in TES5edit and tell me if it has everything you need to get Prison Overhaul working with DD.

Devious Zaz Restraints.rar

[Punga]

Does this mean, update time? 

[Sarfin]

Curiousity kills the cat, and i am QA tester so i gave the file a shot, on a back upped Skyrim with only Devious Device 4.0 with all updates and requirements, as well as ZAP 8.0 POP and DDe was installed.

 

Was working quiet well for me. Got all the prison items i should get from the ZAP, and also being arrested with all DD bondage was working.

 

Hope this was sort of helpful.

[Mud]

Oh, that's a shame to hear about the incompatibilities introduced by DD4... does that mean those DD4 Prisoner Chains that some of us like so much won't be finding their way into this anytime soon?

[Punga]

Update time yet? 

[Kimy]

On 4/21/2018 at 1:48 AM, Inte said:

I know how it can be implemented, but a framework is supposed to simplify its use not complicate it.  

Well, you can't blame the framework for not doing what you want when you refuse actually using it.

 

Just in an effort to explain why we severed links to ZAP: Two reasons:

 

First, because it's the cleaner implementation. ZAP is the older mod. Its main focus is on furniture/torture devices, but yes, it had some wearable devices, too. But the thing is that ZAP was and is more an asset pack than anything else. its implementation of wearable restraints is (with all due respect) fairly crude. The devices are purely cosmetic and can be removed at any time. There is no locking system. No escape system. Device animations can and will be broken mere moments after equipping a device. There are no advanced effects for the devices. And so on.

DD was made to create an actual bondage framework, which ZAP is NOT. Yes, as the newer mod, at the beginning DD was set up to require ZAP and use some parts of its assets, but from day 1, DD was set to REPLACE the bondage code in ZAP with something more fully featured. From a purely technical point of view, it makes little sense to depend on a mod you intend to supersede. And that circumstance has caused its share of issues over time, because if you run two frameworks doing the same thing, some things will clash or at least be confusing (like both mods featuring animation filters, one of which has to be disabled).

 

The second reason was that at this time ZAP was in a state that made us question its continued development. ZAP was unmaintained for a prolonged period of time, and we repeatedly had to implement workarounds on our end for things that got broken in ZAP by other mods updating (SexLab updates repeatedly broke ZAP, and the only reason why DD was still working was because we fixed broken stuff on our end). There also were...how should I phrase it...certain complications and questions about who's actually maintaining it and what direction ZAP will take from there. In short, we were not sure if and for how long we still could rely on ZAP not breaking DD entirely.

 

The way to look at it now is that ZAP is the asset pack for furniture bondage and DD is the framework for wearable restraints. We didn't burn bridges. We corrected a non-ideal relationship between these mods. They are not parent/child. They are siblings. Related, but still independent. And now that relationship is cleanly modeled and way easier to handle for mods. They are STILL meant to be used together. But bondage mods should get in the habit to use ZAP for furniture devices and DD for wearable restraints, because that's how these frameworks relate to each other now.

 

As a personal note (not meant as an attack on anyone), I don't quite understand why a bondage mod would still refuse to use DD when it's clearly the superior choice over ZAP, as far as wearable restraints go. But that's just my personal opinion. Modders need to make that choice for themselves.

[Inte]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2018 at 1:47 AM, IronDusk33 said:

I just spent an hour making a SkyProc patcher, which re-adds the appropriate Zaz Worn Keywords to Devious Devices. I'm not sure how familiar you are with SkyProc patches, so I included an .esp file that already has the DDi and DDx devices patched.

 

Please take a look at it in TES5edit and tell me if it has everything you need to get Prison Overhaul working with DD.

Devious Zaz Restraints.rar

I am not familiar with SkyProc patches, what is it? 

[Inte]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 5:27 PM, Sarfin said:

Curiousity kills the cat, and i am QA tester so i gave the file a shot, on a back upped Skyrim with only Devious Device 4.0 with all updates and requirements, as well as ZAP 8.0 POP and DDe was installed.

 

Was working quiet well for me. Got all the prison items i should get from the ZAP, and also being arrested with all DD bondage was working.

 

Hope this was sort of helpful.

Good to know. 

[Inte]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 1:09 AM, Mud said:

Oh, that's a shame to hear about the incompatibilities introduced by DD4... does that mean those DD4 Prisoner Chains that some of us like so much won't be finding their way into this anytime soon?

That is correct. 

DD4 has prisoner chains? Do you have a screenie? 

[Inte]

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2018 at 12:59 PM, Kimy said:

Well, you can't blame the framework for not doing what you want when you refuse actually using it.

 

Just in an effort to explain why we severed links to ZAP: Two reasons:

 

First, because it's the cleaner implementation. ZAP is the older mod. Its main focus is on furniture/torture devices, but yes, it had some wearable devices, too. But the thing is that ZAP was and is more an asset pack than anything else. its implementation of wearable restraints is (with all due respect) fairly crude. The devices are purely cosmetic and can be removed at any time. There is no locking system. No escape system. Device animations can and will be broken mere moments after equipping a device. There are no advanced effects for the devices. And so on.

DD was made to create an actual bondage framework, which ZAP is NOT. Yes, as the newer mod, at the beginning DD was set up to require ZAP and use some parts of its assets, but from day 1, DD was set to REPLACE the bondage code in ZAP with something more fully featured. From a purely technical point of view, it makes little sense to depend on a mod you intend to supersede. And that circumstance has caused its share of issues over time, because if you run two frameworks doing the same thing, some things will clash or at least be confusing (like both mods featuring animation filters, one of which has to be disabled).

 

The second reason was that at this time ZAP was in a state that made us question its continued development. ZAP was unmaintained for a prolonged period of time, and we repeatedly had to implement workarounds on our end for things that got broken in ZAP by other mods updating (SexLab updates repeatedly broke ZAP, and the only reason why DD was still working was because we fixed broken stuff on our end). There also were...how should I phrase it...certain complications and questions about who's actually maintaining it and what direction ZAP will take from there. In short, we were not sure if and for how long we still could rely on ZAP not breaking DD entirely.

 

The way to look at it now is that ZAP is the asset pack for furniture bondage and DD is the framework for wearable restraints. We didn't burn bridges. We corrected a non-ideal relationship between these mods. They are not parent/child. They are siblings. Related, but still independent. And now that relationship is cleanly modeled and way easier to handle for mods. They are STILL meant to be used together. But bondage mods should get in the habit to use ZAP for furniture devices and DD for wearable restraints, because that's how these frameworks relate to each other now.

 

As a personal note (not meant as an attack on anyone), I don't quite understand why a bondage mod would still refuse to use DD when it's clearly the superior choice over ZAP, as far as wearable restraints go. But that's just my personal opinion. Modders need to make that choice for themselves.

I agree but, I did not refuse to use it per se, just using it will make it a lot of (unnecessary) work to keep the rest of the mods I am using compatible.

 

I disagree. Only the base devices are cosmetic, a mod can configure these devices to be very secure just by adding some keywords to them, something that was just implemented in DDi 4, if I am not mistaken. Also, ZAP has a locking system that will make them unremovable, not even through console commands. The system is so scary I abstained from using it in POP. True, ZAP does not have an escape system outside of a mod, but with the removal of the “armbinder talk” neither does DDi 4? PC animations have been very solid for me for both ZAP and DDi. NPC animations? Not so much. They break for both, ZAP and DDi. Unless DDi 4's animations are implemented differently and do not break for NPCs, accusing ZAP’s device animations breaking when DDi does exactly the same thing, is not fair.

 

You do not have to use anything in ZAP but the device keywords. That will satisfy most of the older mods and will make DDi more backwards compatible. Besides, I am fairly sure all bondage mods here on LL are already using ZAP.

 

Hard to argue with this, @xaz being MIA is a great loss. But perhaps if DDi was to use just the ZAP keywords as I previously mentioned, it will not be affected by the outdated ZAP.  

 

Well the fact remains, ALL bondage mods here are using ZAP, which is not true for DDi.
With that in mind, it is way easier for a mod to check for a simple keyword to determine if the player is restrained rather than check if another mod is present - then grab its specific keyword, or add a yet another (un-needed) dependency just for a simple restraint check. 

 

Because ZAP is a bridge meant to unite all bondage mods. Also as you stated ZAP and DDi are meant to work together not replace one another. By removing ZAP from DDi you are forcing DDi as a dependency on all other mods that do not use/need it. 

[Kimy]

1. DD always had a built-in escape and locking system, dating back to the first time I saw it. Since DD4 modders can customize it to their liking while it used to be more or less hardcoded in earlier versions.

2. No version of ZAP I ever looked at had a locking system for wearable restraints. Don't ask me what ZAP 8 is doing, because I never looked at it. But I can take off any restraint in ZAP 7 just by clicking on it, as long as I have player controls enabled. That's the standard behavior of ZAP no?

3. You can break any bound animation for wearable ZAP restraints just by jumping, because ZAP is using offset animations that do no get reapplied. Again, don't ask me about ZAP 8. But I would be surprised it would be different.

4. While it's true that most BDSM mods (including my own DCL) still use ZAP, NONE except POP doesn't also use DD for handling wearable restraints (ME is in the process of getting converted, according to its author).

5. ZAP and DD are meant to be used together, that's what I said. ZAP for the furniture assets, DD for the wearable restraints. I also said and meant that ZAP's bondage code is inferior to DD in every imaginable aspect, and that there is zero reason for any BDSM mod using wearable restraints not to prefer DD over ZAP. ZAP is akin to the least common denominator for restraints, and it's rarely a good choice to insist on the least common denominator, just because it was first on the market, no?

 

Again, your choice. You don't have to justify your decisions to me or anyone else. But if you think ZAP is still the accepted basis for restraints implementation on LL, I suggest looking at the larger bondage mods on LL still in active development.

 

 

 

[Mud]

1 hour ago, Inte said:

That is correct. 

DD4 has prisoner chains? Do you have a screenie? 

Yes, indeed, these fellas, with HDT chains and leg shackles along with cuff-only variants. I'm pretty sure they've been brought up in the topic before, but they're quite nice.

 

 

 

On that topic, however, I so badly wanted to get these into the game organically I thought I'd crack open the iDDeLibs script and try to Frankenstein a way to get them in. All I did was swap out one of the existing ZadxLib.x arm restraints with the corresponding ID for the chains, but it seems to get equipped fine with Equip? Some visual fuckery going on when equipping them together with the pear chain plugs, but I expect that issue's with the engine or meshes. Does the incompatibility come in later down the line?

[Code Serpent]

4 hours ago, Inte said:

I am not familiar with SkyProc patches, what is it? 

SkyProc is a java library that generates plugins. It's mostly used by large overhauls like SkyRe and Requiem to apply a lot of changes to all weapons/armor/recipes/npcs/etc automatically, cutting down on the need for patches. For example, the Requiem SkyProc patch increases the damage and armor rating of all weapons and armor, even if they were added by a different mod.

 

So, this SkyProc patcher looks at all armors, and their keywords. If the armor has DDi keywords, the patcher will add the corresponding Zaz keywords.