Skyrim Prostitution: Why so insulting?

[Bad Dog]

All that's true, but this is fantasy, after all. And Bethesda has built into the base game complete gender equality, up to and including marrying people of your own sex, so we're already differentiated from traditional Earth societies in that way. Not to mention the whole Dibella thing. There's lots of ways to include an open attitude towards sex in a way that's continuous with the lore.

[DOYBROKU]

All that's true, but this is fantasy, after all. And Bethesda has built into the base game complete gender equality, up to and including marrying people of your own sex, so we're already differentiated from traditional Earth societies in that way. Not to mention the whole Dibella thing. There's lots of ways to include an open attitude towards sex in a way that's continuous with the lore.

 

No argument here  .  Between Dibella and Sanguine, there are a number of possibilities open.  My original inspiration for a prostitute faction in fact came from a number of lore books that mention a prostitute's guild.  Plus, I'm kinda-sorta old enough to remember Daggerfall.

[halieslade]

Maybe this is done to emphasize the fact that prostitution isn't exactly a job having a nice working atmosphere? Yes, the job is degrading, face it. Yes, it would make sense to add some nice-guy type client  dialogues since the lines become too repetitive. But this is a medieval setting, and it was even worse time for prostitutes than it is today, even in 19th century Victorian society they were treated like kind of subhuman beings. Expecting everyone in medieval society treating prostitutes with respect is a bit of too far-fetched, I think.

 

Even the Romans had high-end courtesans. Phyrne was a famous ancient Greek courtesan, supposedly the model for the sculpture of Aphrodite of  Cnidus.   They existed in medieval France, China and 19th century England, too. 

[Jayleia]

Maybe this is done to emphasize the fact that prostitution isn't exactly a job having a nice working atmosphere? Yes, the job is degrading, face it. Yes, it would make sense to add some nice-guy type client  dialogues since the lines become too repetitive. But this is a medieval setting, and it was even worse time for prostitutes than it is today, even in 19th century Victorian society they were treated like kind of subhuman beings. Expecting everyone in medieval society treating prostitutes with respect is a bit of too far-fetched, I think.

I disagree.  The reason prostitution doesn't tend to have a nice working environment is because of our cultural sexual baggage.  Going off the tone of Skyrim, I could easily see the Nords having similar baggage though.

 

By criminalizing/stigmatizing it, that makes it a job that criminals will do (because its a crime), and it means that all the customers will be criminals.  But there are, and were, prostitutes that aren't badly treated, and often well-rewarded all throughout history.

 

But...as far as treating prostitutes respectfully being too far-fetched, let me point out that you are playing Skyrim, wherein you shout at immortal dragons to kill them and absorb their souls.  And treating prostitutes with respect is far-fetched? 

[phillout]

 

Even the Romans had high-end courtesans. Phyrne was a famous ancient Greek courtesan, supposedly the model for the sculpture of Aphrodite of  Cnidus.   They existed in medieval France, China and 19th century England, too. 

 

 

Radiant Prostitution isn't a mod for RPing a "high-end courtesan", I guess. You're RPing a street whore who is looking for work at inns. This isn't even a call-girl or one of those inviting customers to their apartments prostitutes. It's the lowest rank whore. You're playing a low rank member of medieval society, somewhere on the level of beggars, vagrants and petty thieves. What kind of respect were you expecting? And actually as your character raises in ranks, as she starts getting jobs involving work at customers homes, she starts getting notably more respectful attitude there. "You were an angel, thank you".

 

It's not about a character being female. It's all about her rank in the society.

 

 

I disagree.  The reason prostitution doesn't tend to have a nice working environment is because of our cultural sexual baggage.  Going off the tone of Skyrim, I could easily see the Nords having similar baggage though.

 

By criminalizing/stigmatizing it, that makes it a job that criminals will do (because its a crime), and it means that all the customers will be criminals.  But there are, and were, prostitutes that aren't badly treated, and often well-rewarded all throughout history.

 

But...as far as treating prostitutes respectfully being too far-fetched, let me point out that you are playing Skyrim, wherein you shout at immortal dragons to kill them and absorb their souls.  And treating prostitutes with respect is far-fetched? 

 

 

I don't see anything in Skyrim lore pointing out to Tamriel being somewhat open-minded towards sex. 

 

And seriously I can't treat that gender-equality, same-sex marriage content in the game as being something more than just a random PC stuff, added simply to please gamers from modern society. The game would spark a lot of controversy otherwise. So pardon me if I don't take it seriously as a "part of the lore".

 

And, while we're at it - saying that this degrading element is there to "please men, who enjoy treating women poorly" is far-fetched too. I certainly didn't "enjoy" this attitude my character used to get from clients. Just as I don't "enjoy" my character freezing in cold mountains because I use Frostfall. Neither I "enjoy" my character being burned by dragons breath - really, are we all just a bunch of sadists here, enjoying someone's pain because we're playing someone who always gets hurt?

 

No, no and no. It's just yet another challenge. 

[Vyxenne]

 

 

Editing dialog for existing mods is real easy and doesn't take much modding know how. Just load it up in CK and edit the dialog set in the prostitution mods quest. Then ask the developer of the original if it's okay for you to release it for others to use, or if they'd like to include it as an extra patch in the official download.

 

If you find a mod lacking in a certain area, there is no faster or better way to make it happen than to do it yourself and give back to the community. Especially in this particular case, you don't need to create a whole prostitution mod yourself, just edit some lines of dialog to be more to your taste.

 

Hi, Ashal, and thanks for the reply. Not sure how I failed to convey this in my OP, but I have already done exactly what you described. No reply so far to the PM to the author wherein I uploaded the esp back to him a few days ago, but that's no big deal.

 

 

 

Did you send a message to the ORIGINAL author of Radiant Prostitution, or korialstraszbob? 

<snip>

I've been using TDF Agressive Prostitution.

 

Tell you what. I'm an up and coming modder, so if you can figure out how to get Tweaked to work, I can see if I can't poke around in the dialogue guts with a monkey wrench,<snip>

 

Edit: Not to mention the fact that RP (Radiant Prostitution) has a feature where NPC's approach YOU for sex, which TDF does not.<snip>

 

I didn't send a message to either author of Radiant Prostitution- I gave up trying to get that to work months ago, and since that time it doesn't seem that the situation has improved much, based on the current RP-T thread. I sent a message with my modified esp file attached to the author of SexLab Working Girl, which is the one I was using then.

 

As info, TDF very definitely incorporates passive solicitation (where NPCs approach me for sex) but, unlike RP, there is no "WhoreON/WhoreOff" switch, so TDF handles it differently. First, go into TDF options in MCM.

1. Set the time scale to max so arousal levels will increase very quickly over minimal time intervals

2. Set exposure rate to max so time intervals and/or sexy events produce the maximum possible arousal increase

3. Set NPC required arousal to a low value (mine is set to 1) so NPCs are as horny as I am most of the time

4. Set strip when dancing to ON because nudity increases arousal levels for everyone

5. Set Exhibitionist to ON so your own dancing increases your arousal level

6. (Optional) Set all gold levels to max so in addition to being horny and sexy, you'll be rich.

 

Now that you have maxed out arousal levels all around, go into an Inn and use your TDF Player Dance spell... and watch what happens. The NPCs literally mob me with propositions... I have never gotten out of an Inn after dancing with fewer than 5 or 6 well-satisfied customers, plus if I have my slutlets with me I can keep them busy too.

 

Another fun fact about TDF: sex training increases the prices you and your slutlets can demand for sex. So, I always have 2 of my girls train each other while I train the 3rd one, thereby increasing ALL of our asking prices including my own. In my current playthrough, after maxing out all gold levels in MCM, I'm getting well over 2,000 gold per customer, and in Markarth where I have 3 girls working full time, my cut after 2 or 3 days is well over 5,000 gold.

 

And if you and your girls train each other right there on the rug in the middle of the Inn, the arousal level of everybody around goes through the roof.

 

[Z0mBieP00Nani]

 

All that's true, but this is fantasy, after all. And Bethesda has built into the base game complete gender equality, up to and including marrying people of your own sex, so we're already differentiated from traditional Earth societies in that way. Not to mention the whole Dibella thing. There's lots of ways to include an open attitude towards sex in a way that's continuous with the lore.

 

No argument here  .  Between Dibella and Sanguine, there are a number of possibilities open.  My original inspiration for a prostitute faction in fact came from a number of lore books that mention a prostitute's guild.  Plus, I'm kinda-sorta old enough to remember Daggerfall.

 

 

Which "lore books" would you be referring to by chance? I've always been kind of curious as far as how prostitution is most likeily to be looked at in Skyrim.

 

I mean I guess it hints at the idea for sex in exchange for currency in the books called The Real Barenziah, but what other lore books are there?

[tusken]

I haven't played the mod you mentioned yet, but I feel the same way you do. It's a symptom of our time, really. Not just the mod, but in the current consciousness of sexuality in general.

 

Debasing language can be a sexual turn on, yeah, but when people attach debasement/shame/embarrassment to the entire idea of sexuality, to the point where any sort of promiscuity is considered an indignity...That I don't like so much. That's where a lot of that kind of stuff comes from I think. I don't know, I'm more of your mindset. We come from a long history of holy harlots. Just look up anything dealing with the sexuality of Rome and it's various love goddesses (Venus was a patron of prostitutes, which could be considered a way of venerating her and was recognized as an actual form of worship by the state). In Aricia, the rite of passage for young girls involved a procession where they had to either sacrifice all their hair at the statue of Diana, or they had to have sex with the young village boy they were most attracted to. It was all very natural and pro-life, centered around the promotion of joyful sexual activity and the veneration of women/nature. Happy, sexually empowered women meant a happy, sexually empowered society.

 

I think most of the negative feelings attached to prostitution come from it being illegal in most first world places. I'll really never understand why that's a thing. If there was an actual well established institution for prostitute/escort education set up around the world, where people could get licenses/degrees, proper insurance and medical education, and have boards of professionals that deal with issues in the communities of sex workers, we'd all be in a much better place. It'd result in cleaner, smarter and happier practices all over the world. Regular certification checkups and screenings would ensure a lower rate of STD's, established guidelines and client permits would keep prostitutes much safer, and our world governments would be able to put luxury taxes on prostitution as a legal service, making their economies stronger!

 

So much could be done to improve the quality of life just by treating the world's harlots better

[DOYBROKU]

 

 

All that's true, but this is fantasy, after all. And Bethesda has built into the base game complete gender equality, up to and including marrying people of your own sex, so we're already differentiated from traditional Earth societies in that way. Not to mention the whole Dibella thing. There's lots of ways to include an open attitude towards sex in a way that's continuous with the lore.

 

No argument here  .  Between Dibella and Sanguine, there are a number of possibilities open.  My original inspiration for a prostitute faction in fact came from a number of lore books that mention a prostitute's guild.  Plus, I'm kinda-sorta old enough to remember Daggerfall.

 

 

Which "lore books" would you be referring to by chance? I've always been kind of curious as far as how prostitution is most likeily to be looked at in Skyrim.

 

I mean I guess it hints at the idea for sex in exchange for currency in the books called The Real Barenziah, but what other lore books are there?

 

 

The Mystery of Talara is largely about the adventures of a guild prostitute from High Rock; plus, a Prostitute's Guild created from the Guild Act is mentioned in the History of the Fighter's Guild.  Of course, that's all in the cosmopolitan regions to the south, and what it says about Skyrim's willingness to host such an institution is anyone's guess.