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So has Racemenu "beaten" ECE?


dryuya

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Racemenu needs to have better descriptions for their sliders and what they do. Having a list with like 4 different "Left Breast" options is off-putting because they never state what they do. Not sure if that's due to limitations in text or whatnot, but it's irritating to me. I still use it but just a small nitpick I have with Racemenu.

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Not dissing this persons character but iv seen Sooooooo many faces from racemenu which are extremely similar to this over and over again hundreds of times.

 

So are ECE presets on Nexus.  The reason is that very few authors share their presets so the few well made ones get used repeatedly by others as a foundation. 

 

Hopefully this won't come across as obtuse but all these argument of one tool's supposed superiority over another in the hands of skillful person is frankly annoying and elitist.  I doubt authors of ECE and RM dedicated their times to create these tools so people like you can say "look what I can do but you cannot play with it because it's mine only".  Unless you have provided your supposedly superior faces/characters to share in the past or planning to in the future, STFU in terms which tool you think is superior because as far as the rest of the world is concern your opinions mean diddly squat.

 

/end rant from one who is not 3D sculptor

 

 

Gotta disagree on that. Why should I have to provide my character's face, on which I spent a ridiculous amount of hours on, for other people when I want to voice my opinion about two character customisation mods? Because they don't feel like putting some work into it and therefore their opinions are more valid? Wtf?

 

I'm neither a 3D sculptor nor am I very experienced with 3ds/Blender, I started with something like THIS

but simply kept going until I achieved a satisfying result.

 

It was never about "look what I can do but you cannot play with it because it's mine only" or acting like my characters are somehow superior to other people's.

 

If you don't want to spend too much time on character creation and use one of the presets provided by other people instead that's totally fine but then you shouldn't act like you know way better which of the tools is more useful than the people who actually used them for hours upon hours.

 

/end rant from someone who isn't a 3d sculptor but didn't blame those who may be for his character's uglyness.

 

 

Because this thread is about whether RM has "beaten" ECE.  What that means is whether RM will be more popular or more supported going forward than ECE.  Clearly the OP raised the issue because the big fresh developments like Familar Face, CITRUS and XPMSE 2 are all working in conjunction with development of RM and not ECE.  It's about the free market response to the future of two major mods and not about whether how YOU like one or the other. 

 

If you people want to argue about "Is RM better than ECE because I can create better characters for myself" then start your own thread and do your own bickering there and leave us alone.  We care about the future trend of the modding community and if all you care is about your own game then just stick with what you like and stop hijacking the discussion.

 

Some of the discussions above is akin to all those people who post screen shots on the "share your preset" thread and then said "nah". 

 

 

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Not dissing this persons character but iv seen Sooooooo many faces from racemenu which are extremely similar to this over and over again hundreds of times.

 

So are ECE presets on Nexus.  The reason is that very few authors share their presets so the few well made ones get used repeatedly by others as a foundation. 

 

Hopefully this won't come across as obtuse but all these argument of one tool's supposed superiority over another in the hands of skillful person is frankly annoying and elitist.  I doubt authors of ECE and RM dedicated their times to create these tools so people like you can say "look what I can do but you cannot play with it because it's mine only".  Unless you have provided your supposedly superior faces/characters to share in the past or planning to in the future, STFU in terms which tool you think is superior because as far as the rest of the world is concern your opinions mean diddly squat.

 

/end rant from one who is not 3D sculptor

 

 

Gotta disagree on that. Why should I have to provide my character's face, on which I spent a ridiculous amount of hours on, for other people when I want to voice my opinion about two character customisation mods? Because they don't feel like putting some work into it and therefore their opinions are more valid? Wtf?

 

I'm neither a 3D sculptor nor am I very experienced with 3ds/Blender, I started with something like THIS

but simply kept going until I achieved a satisfying result.

 

It was never about "look what I can do but you cannot play with it because it's mine only" or acting like my characters are somehow superior to other people's.

 

If you don't want to spend too much time on character creation and use one of the presets provided by other people instead that's totally fine but then you shouldn't act like you know way better which of the tools is more useful than the people who actually used them for hours upon hours.

 

/end rant from someone who isn't a 3d sculptor but didn't blame those who may be for his character's uglyness.

 

 

Because this thread is about whether RM has "beaten" ECE.  What that means is whether RM will be more popular or more supported going forward than ECE.  Clearly the OP raised the issue because the big fresh developments like Familar Face, CITRUS and XPMSE 2 are all working in conjunction with development of RM and not ECE.  It's about the free market response to the future of two major mods and not about whether how YOU like one or the other. 

 

If you people want to argue about "Is RM better than ECE because I can create better characters for myself" then start your own thread and do your own bickering there and leave us alone.  We care about the future trend of the modding community and if all you care is about your own game then just stick with what you like and stop hijacking the discussion.

 

 

Then you should probably talk about whether or not RM has beaten ECE in the long term because of it's 3rd party support in your comment next time because what I replied to seemed more like someone complaining about other people not sharing their face files and calling their opinions invalid.

 

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"Then you should probably talk about whether or not RM has beaten ECE in the long term because of it's 3rd party support in your comment next time because what I replied to seemed more like someone complaining about other people not sharing their face files and calling their opinions invalid."

 

It is invalid because the popularity of RM and ECE going forward depends on authors who will use them to create stuff for others to use.  How do you think CBBE has been able to sustain its popularity for so long?  It's from all the authors who decide to share their works using Bodyslide and OS with the world and not from all those people who just post screenshots of their own outfits and not sharing. 

 

Do you think all the authors who chose to work with RM like XPMES2, CITRUS and Famiailar Faces do so because they have an agenda?  No, they develop those tools to make it easier for author to create better stuff for others who otherwise couldn't do for themselves.   Their opinion and those who create stuff for others are the opinions that matter. 

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How about this?

 

Can we stop arguing about which is better? This is turning into one of those 'which body is better?' threads where it becomes completely opinionated with false facts and personal attacks flying around.

 

People who like ECE or have a bias towards ECE will and can stay with ECE.

People who like RaceMenu or have a bias towards RaceMenu will and can stay with RaceMenu.

 

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just because RM faces look different in general doesn't mean you can't create a good face with it.

I suggest you just try out the mods themselves figure out which one you can like, what features you need and see if you can live with that decision.

Feel free to state on the respective mods threads why you maybe didn't want it or why you like it (AKA: A Review)

If it's got a valid suggestion or bug, I know for sure Expired will pick it up.

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Please tell me this CITRUS integration thing you're all talking about doesn't mean I'll be forced to use a CITRUS headmesh, or at the vert least it won't fuck up my existing characters.

 

I don't want a new headmesh, but moreso I don't want to lose my characters because I was forced to use a new headmesh. I don't care if it's compatible, I don't even care if the changes would be "minor". I don't want my characters' faces messed up because I had something I didn't want shoved down my throat.

 

Right now Citrus isn't compatible with the EEO sliders yet so I can see how you'd have a problem with that... makes it hard to test and see if your characters will be okay with it.

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Thanks blabba.  I am gonna apologize for my own hijacking of the thread and nipping it now because it adds little to the quality of discussion at hand and is getting personal.  I leave with this rule of mine which has kept me sane when it comes to Internet discourse:  A thread about US-China relationship is not an invite by the world to hear my personal history of interacting with the people of either country :)

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"Then you should probably talk about whether or not RM has beaten ECE in the long term because of it's 3rd party support in your comment next time because what I replied to seemed more like someone complaining about other people not sharing their face files and calling their opinions invalid."

 

It is invalid because the popularity of RM and ECE going forward depends on authors who will use them to create stuff for others to use.  How do you think CBBE has been able to sustain its popularity for so long?  It's from all the authors who decide to share their works using Bodyslide and OS with the world and not from all those people who just post screenshots of their own outfits and not sharing. 

 

Do you think all the authors who chose to work with RM like XPMES2, CITRUS and Famiailar Faces do so because they have an agenda?  No, they develop those tools to make it easier for author to create better stuff for others who otherwise couldn't do for themselves.   Their opinion and those who create stuff for others are the opinions that matter. 

 

No they're not the only ones that matter. At this point in time it's a matter of what you prioritise, more face customisation or more general character customisation. And people who spend a lot of time using either mod regularly can provide some good arguments in favour of one or the other.

 

If we would go by your logic this thread wouldn't even need to exist because RM obviously has more support by different mod creators, gets more updates and must therefore be the vastly superior mod.

 

Sooner or later ECE, with it's lack of support, will become obsolete but that is not right now.

 

How about this?

 

Can we stop arguing about which is better? This is turning into one of those 'which body is better?' threads where it becomes completely opinionated with false facts and personal attacks flying around.

 

People who like ECE or have a bias towards ECE will and can stay with ECE.

People who like RaceMenu or have a bias towards RaceMenu will and can stay with RaceMenu.

 

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just because RM faces look different in general doesn't mean you can't create a good face with it.

I suggest you just try out the mods themselves figure out which one you can like, what features you need and see if you can live with that decision.

Feel free to state on the respective mods threads why you maybe didn't want it or why you like it (AKA: A Review)

If it's got a valid suggestion or bug, I know for sure Expired will pick it up.

 

The problem in this case was that I simply didn't see the point in declaring arguments as invalid because they just happen to come from someone who doesn't share his face files or who doesn't happen to be an author of a plugin for either of those two mods.

 

But you're right, I hopefully made my point clear and I'm finished now.

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How about this?

 

Can we stop arguing about which is better? This is turning into one of those 'which body is better?' threads where it becomes completely opinionated with false facts and personal attacks flying around.

 

People who like ECE or have a bias towards ECE will and can stay with ECE.

People who like RaceMenu or have a bias towards RaceMenu will and can stay with RaceMenu.

 

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just because RM faces look different in general doesn't mean you can't create a good face with it.

I suggest you just try out the mods themselves figure out which one you can like, what features you need and see if you can live with that decision.

Feel free to state on the respective mods threads why you maybe didn't want it or why you like it (AKA: A Review)

If it's got a valid suggestion or bug, I know for sure Expired will pick it up.

That's more or less how I feel about it.

 

I've used both.  ECE is a bit cleaner and easier to use, but I've had compatibility issues with it in the past and currently only use the most recent version of RaceMenu.  RM has greatly expanded itself, as well, especially with eyes, noses and lips/mouths.  It seems like ECE might be better for less pronounced, more subtle features if you're designing characters with an Eastern look.  I have some custom follower mods by Asian modders where the followers look legitimately Asian in a realistic manner.  I never get very close when I try to emulate that style, but for me, I actually tend to prefer the more exaggerated, more pronounced Western look when I create characters.  Whenever I've made characters with an Asian look, they've always turned out looking like cartoons.  Of course, the overall look of the characters in screen shots will always be dictated by the various skeletons, animations, meshes, textures and lighting/FX mods people use, so everyone can't always expect the same results.  That's why it's fun to share images, videos, techniques and opinions on various mods with other people.

 

I would use ECE again if it had greater compatibility.

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How about this?

 

Can we stop arguing about which is better? This is turning into one of those 'which body is better?' threads where it becomes completely opinionated with false facts and personal attacks flying around.

 

People who like ECE or have a bias towards ECE will and can stay with ECE.

People who like RaceMenu or have a bias towards RaceMenu will and can stay with RaceMenu.

 

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, just because RM faces look different in general doesn't mean you can't create a good face with it.

I suggest you just try out the mods themselves figure out which one you can like, what features you need and see if you can live with that decision.

Feel free to state on the respective mods threads why you maybe didn't want it or why you like it (AKA: A Review)

If it's got a valid suggestion or bug, I know for sure Expired will pick it up.

That's more or less how I feel about it.

 

I've used both.  ECE is a bit cleaner and easier to use, but I've had compatibility issues with it in the past and currently only use the most recent version of RaceMenu.  RM has greatly expanded itself, as well, especially with eyes, noses and lips/mouths.  It seems like ECE might be better for less pronounced, more subtle features if you're designing characters with an Eastern look.  I have some custom follower mods by Asian modders where the followers look legitimately Asian in a realistic manner.  I never get very close when I try to emulate that style, but for me, I actually tend to prefer the more exaggerated, more pronounced Western look when I create characters.  Whenever I've made characters with an Asian look, they've always turned out looking like cartoons.  Of course, the overall look of the characters in screen shots will always be dictated by the various skeletons, animations, meshes, textures and lighting/FX mods people use, so everyone can't always expect the same results.  That's why it's fun to share images, videos, techniques and opinions on various mods with other people.

 

I would use ECE again if it had greater compatibility.

 

 

Who knows maybe someone will take over ECE and revitalize it. But then again i do not think that will ever happen. 

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  • 2 months later...

I first used RaceMenu when I started modding my game. Then I saw ECE and it is, for Me, far better. Ive used it ever since. The 2 races I almost always choose are Nord and Darkelf. There are 2 times that I have thought of switching back to RM. First was to use with Elven Ethereal Overhaul. But I could still get elves I liked the look of "well enough" without having to switch to RM to use EEO. Not at all perfect, and every time I see a great elven face it seems it was made with EEO. Ive yet to get one I'm satisfied with. I dislike RM that much, Id rather stay with ECE. The second time now is with Familiar Faces. I don't care if I needed Alternate Actors installed so I can take control of the imported character and open the console race menu to load the ECE preset. The underlying issues I have with RaceMenu have not changed. I cannot recreate a look from ECE with it. I just spent nearly an hour trying to do so. The sliders just do not move the same. Options don't matter if they are bad options, I don't need the slider to take the tip of my nose to my tits. ECE has stuff like that too, options you wont use 99% of the time. The sliders just move better in it, the shapes they form are better out of the gate. The edges are not as sharp and end up looking like a jagged face. I tinkered with the vertic editor for about 1 minute, don't want to mess with it, sliders are easy. I checked out the sculptor in RM, I don't know if it even works in this version yet. But I wouldn't want to mess with it anyway, because sliders are easy. And though I'm pretty much bashing RM with this, I'm not wanting to. If I could get the same or greater effect from RM that I could with ECE I would use it, why not? If ECE is truly abandoned and mods are released that rely on RaceMenu to operate then its in my interests to see RaceMenu exceed, not by popularity, but by effect.

 

This took me 5 minutes to create on ECE (probably less than 5)

 

enb2014_10_0700_00_10_58_zpsdb130677.png

 

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I wish I could use both together but atm I feel more or less forced to use racemenu because I like the many addons it supports, while I agree that ECE can make prettier faces it just doesnt offer enough aside from that to really convince me to switch. If I could use both together I would definately do so.

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I am using RM and I see the current State of the Art as follwing:

 

-At moment ECE's advantage is that you need maybe less than a third of the time to create a nice looking preset in compare to doing the same in Race Menu. Actually you are able to morph everything in RM as you are able to do in ECE, but in RM you need to use a lot more sliders for reaching the same goal.

 

-Vertex Editing is still not available in RM.

 

-RM overall has the better structured and organized UI and is in general more stable and gets much more support by plugins.

 

-I haven't looked deep into saving and reusing preset saves for RM/ECE, but there might be differences in comfortability. ECE uses a CK node, easy to handle and to use, even for NPCs.

 

...but when the new Citrus Body and its new head mesh will be released and when this new head mesh will be compatible with RM, the most remaining ECE advantages will bust. I wonder if RM will need a vertex editing option for this head mesh at all. It's so high poly, that there may be nothing left that might needs smoothing.

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...but when the new Citrus Body and its new head mesh will be released and when this new head mesh will be compatible with RM, the most remaining ECE advantages will bust. I wonder if RM will need a vertex editing option for this head mesh at all. It's so high poly, that there may be nothing left that might needs smoothing.

 

You can use the vertex editor for more than just smoothing.

 

Like cleft chins. see Elisha Cuthbert as an example.

 

And some asymmetrical facial features, to add "character", maybe your character's nose was broken once and you bend the sellion with the vertex editor.

 

Things like this I can't wait to do with Racemenu, when version 3 comes out. I once gave a khajiit hybrid character I made once, a cleft chin when I used to use ECE.

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I don't understand the whole "compatibility with this race or that" thing.

 

All of my races work with either, because I don't pigeonhole users into choosing one or the other by including their morphs in my mods. If a race mod doesn't work with both, then it's built wrong. If the head is set up right in the CK, then it will default to whatever morphs the user has in their Data\meshes\actors\character\character assets folder.

 

Trykz

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I don't understand the whole "compatibility with this race or that" thing.

 

All of my races work with either, because I don't pigeonhole users into choosing one or the other by including their morphs in my mods. If a race mod doesn't work with both, then it's built wrong. If the head is set up right in the CK, then it will default to whatever morphs the user has in their Data\meshes\actors\character\character assets folder.

 

Trykz

 

Most people think because the scale sliders don't show up that ECE doesn't work on that race, but it's mainly because ECE uses textfiles which users has to manually edit to include race support for non vanilla races.

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I am using RM and I see the current State of the Art as follwing:

 

-At moment ECE's advantage is that you need maybe less than a third of the time to create a nice looking preset in compare to doing the same in Race Menu. Actually you are able to morph everything in RM as you are able to do in ECE, but in RM you need to use a lot more sliders for reaching the same goal.

 

-Vertex Editing is still not available in RM.

 

-RM overall has the better structured and organized UI and is in general more stable and gets much more support by plugins.

 

-I haven't looked deep into saving and reusing preset saves for RM/ECE, but there might be differences in comfortability. ECE uses a CK node, easy to handle and to use, even for NPCs.

 

...but when the new Citrus Body and its new head mesh will be released and when this new head mesh will be compatible with RM, the most remaining ECE advantages will bust. I wonder if RM will need a vertex editing option for this head mesh at all. It's so high poly, that there may be nothing left that might needs smoothing.

That's a fair assessment overall, except for the first part which is the opposite in my experience. The fact that I can finesse more using ECE's vertex editor means I spend more time at character creation than I do with RM, not less. I expect that to change when expired finally unleashes the sculpting feature. 

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  • 1 month later...

 

I don't understand the whole "compatibility with this race or that" thing.

 

All of my races work with either, because I don't pigeonhole users into choosing one or the other by including their morphs in my mods. If a race mod doesn't work with both, then it's built wrong. If the head is set up right in the CK, then it will default to whatever morphs the user has in their Data\meshes\actors\character\character assets folder.

 

Trykz

 

Most people think because the scale sliders don't show up that ECE doesn't work on that race, but it's mainly because ECE uses textfiles which users has to manually edit to include race support for non vanilla races.

 

 

Except that from my experience, you do not HAVE to manually edit the file. The one, singular file, where the most you would ever have to do is add 3 lines to a single .ini if something is messed up. From my experience, where I have made SEVERAL custom races? I have never had to modify the text file for ECE, as long as the race was set up properly ECE would determine that "Yes, this race is not vanilla. It needs X Sliders because it is based off of Y race".

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